Is there any reason not to be a Christian?

>>2269672
-You dont find the evidence for the existence of a God to be more reasonable than not.
-You do not find the claims made in its documents or by its proponents convincing

There you go OP

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>>2269677
You don't need to believe in the supernatural to be a Christian

>>2269687
I didnt make any claims about the super natural

>>2269672
The fact that a person can't be born of a virgin and come back from the dead. You know, common sense.

>>2269687
roleplaying doesn't get you into heaven

>>2269672

The Gospels can't even agree if Jesus was crucified when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed or not. All 4 give different versions of his supposedly last words on the cross. It's not exactly a good start.

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It's not real.

That's reason enough: after all, it's the same reason you're not a Muslim or a Greek polytheist.

>>2269672
Yes, the reasons which compel people to Judaism instead. Or Islam. Or the litany of reasons why people practice Buddhism and Sikhism - what kind of stupid question is this?

>>2269672
Unless you don't mind being a fedora go ahead. Teotl is the true patrician religion.

>>2269687
Yes you do, new age heretic.

>>2270322
>>But anon !! You're not harmonizing the Gospels !!

>>2269687
You absolutely need to retard.
Angels, Demons, God incarnating as a human on earth to rise from the dead.

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>>2269672
>Is there any reason not to be a Christian?

You don't approve of Joseph or his wife's son

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You don't agree with the several sects all claiming to know the truth and yet all claim to be Christian as well.

You don't like the idea of religion being used as a busines.

You agree more with the views of the Buddha.

>>2269677
>evidence

God is supernatural. The supernatural isn't natural. Empiricism is exclusively a study of the natural world and so there CAN NEVER be an experiment to "find God". All you will find is that God doesn't exist in the natural world. But he's supernatural so we already knew that. The definition of Supernatural is: "(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature." so why do you still try to look for evidence. It's like trying to record video with a tape recorder.

>>2270565

Why do you try to rationalize him and his rules then? If you believe this, then take it all the way and admit that you're religious on emotional, and not rational grounds

>>2269687
>You don't have to believe in God to be a Christian

>>2270370
>>2270459
>Atheists telling a Christian how to be Christian

>>2270587
>Atheist pretending to grasp that which the human mind cannot grasp.

Intellectual honesty, perhaps.

>>2270687
If you take the Supernatural creator-of-the-universe stuff out of Christianity (or any religion), what's left is little more than a warm-fuzzy feeling for naive simpletons, blind subordinance to authoritarian institutions and some shitty mental gymnastics (aka Theology/Christian philosophy).

It's a life-denying slave morality.

>>2269687
>t. Martin "Deviantard" Luther

>>2269672
>reason
>logic
>Burden of proof
>not wanting to be a mental slave
>not wanting to be a puppet

You could exchange "Christian" with any other religion and the question wouldn't change does that tell you something ?

>>2269672
- Jesus failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies
- Jesus' apocalyptic prophecies failed

>>2270916
how is christianity still a thing then

>>2271037

Mental gymnastics, damage control, "2deep4u"

>>2271037
It's a social institution, like a government.

>>2270912
you just become a slave to "logic" and "reason" instead

1 John 4:1—Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

>>2269672

No good reason, no.

People want to feel powerful rebelling against God. They'll enjoy that feeling until they die. And then they'll find out that eternity is more important than their finite life ever was.

>>2270916

Jesus fulfilled hundreds of messianic prophecies.

Because he was rejected and murdered, the ones about the Kingdom Age were put on hold.

They will all be fulfilled in the Kingdom Age.

>>2270723
Yes, we smart people know that everything came from nothing, that life came from non-life, that consciousness came from unconsciousness, and that order comes from chaos.

>>2271074
That's the Enlightenment, and the cause of the downfall of Europe.

>>2271086
>They will all be fulfilled in the Kingdom Age.
Problem is that should have come 1900 years ago at the latest.

>>2271082
>have finite life
>receive infinite consequences for finite actions

Explain yourself. The chinese and indians have a mechanism for how afterlife designation works, how does God judge someone to determine such a catastrophically unbalanced scale of justice?

>>2271097
I wish I lived in the Golden Age, giving it up on the Broadway stage.
Hang with the rats and smoke cigars, have a break with Frank and count the stars.
Dressed to the nines, with hair to match. Shiny jewels, casino cash.
Tapping feet, wanna take the lead. A trip back in time is all I need!

>>2271097

Why?

>>2271098

Yes.

If you're alive, you go to the Kingdom of the Living.

If you're dead, you go to the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire.

Your choice depends on your relationship with Jesus Christ, the Creator. By any name.

>>2271116
>Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

>Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
- Jesus

>For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

>What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away
- Paul, arguably the most important man in the formation of Christianity.

>>2271128
>>Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

John the Revelator, aka John the Beloved

>Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

The generation who sees the Beginning of Sorrows will see the Second Coming.

Two prophecies, conflated by satan, and put forward by you as though true.

>For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

the Rapture, which is imminent.

>What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short.

Yes, time is short. These are the last days. The days between Pentecost 32 AD and the Rapture. And the time between your birth and your death are even shorter.

I do weary of you, satan. I truly do.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

>>2271137
>John the Revelator, aka John the Beloved
What, you think John is immortal?

>The generation who sees the Beginning of Sorrows will see the Second Coming.
He's clearly talking about his, the current generation. I'm surprised you didn't try to say generation really means race or something here like apologists usually do.

And here's another one, explain this

>When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

>>2270587
Nope. Why would you think you do? Atheists sure have some strange misconceptions about Christianity sometimes

>>2271090
Nice that we agree (at least to the extent that phrases like "order comes from chaos" have any meaning).

>>2271373
What do you have to do to be a christian then?

>>2269672
>it's boring & tedious
that was it for me

>>2271338
>What, you think John is immortal?

No, but his contemporaries did.

John 21
Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you?”

No, he's talking about the generation who experiences the Beginning of Sorrows.

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

...

So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Your last quote has nothing to do with the Rapture or the Second Coming.

>>2271382
Yes, we're so smart. What bright boys we are! We're smarter than God!

>>2271373
i was raised christian and accepting jesus as your lord and saviour, son of the father god almighty IS the ONE requisite to be a christian
Christianity without the supernatural is not Christianity, else you are just advocating for some moral guidance and cool stories proposed by some dudes back in the bronze age all the way to roman empire

>>2271382
>What do you have to do to be a christian then?
Believe that Jesus Christ sacrificed him to save you. That's it.

>>2271409
you cannot leave out the part about him being the son of God or God existing

>>2271382
>What do you have to do to be a christian then?

You have to do what God says you have to do.

John 3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Romans 10
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

>>2271390
It's easy to be smarter than nothing

>>2271449

I'm sure one day then you'll accomplish that feat.

>>2271082
>People want to feel powerful rebelling against God

The eternal religious strawman.

>They'll enjoy that feeling until they die. And then they'll find out that eternity is more important than their finite life ever was.

How will you feel when you die and find out another religion was right. (I don't think that any is right)

The fact that their evidence is as bad as yours doesn't bother you at all right?

>>2271409
I would instinctively agree with >>2271420, in the sense that you also have to believe that there is some sort of significance to that act of Jesus, i.e. that his sacrifice did actually "save" me in any meaningful manner.

I mean, I agree that Jesus was crucified, and that he or others around him also thought that he did that for us. Clearly that doesn't make me a Christian.

>>2271446
>You have to do what God says you have to do.
Well, being Christian is the easiest thing ever then. Since God doesn't exist (which is my belief, a belief that apparently doesn't disqualify me from being a christian), he cannot in fact give me any orders that I would have to fulfill, therefore I automatically pass. ez

>>2271460
>The fact that their evidence is as bad as yours doesn't bother you at all right?
Which religion?

>>2271389
Why do you have church fathers like Jerome saying generation is really referring to the Jewish race with 'generation' or academics coming up with theories like preterism that state the prophecies have already been fulfilled if he's simply talking about a future generation? Combined with all the other verses that indicate and imminent second coming that just cant be what he meant.

>>2271460
You'll never know that feeling, unless you repent and are saved.

>>2271470
It's impossible to become a Christian on your own, no matter how long or how hard you try.

It's a supernatural event that requires God's assistance.

>>2271492
Papists are going to hell. Ask them when you get there.

>>2269672
>the soul isn't immortal and it's a logical fact

This pretty much

>>2271090
Strawman, we're working on it, consciousness is a property of matter, and strawman

>>2269672
Less wasted time

>>2271527

Does it hurt to be this wrong?

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>>2271527
>consciousness is a property of matter

Yes
>>2269677 is basically if to believe in a higher power or not
Christianity as a subcategory of Abrahamism,subcategory of monotheism,subcategory of religion which is subcategory of believing in something greater or a greater power need way more evidence and reasonable claims,but what we get is a dude that technically fucked his mother

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>>2269672

For me, I would have to be lying.

I simply do not believe. To declare otherwise would be to lie to the community, myself, and God, if there is such a thing.

I doubt faith, and I have faith in doubt. Doubt brings solutions and motivates inquiry. Faith draws conclusions and suspends inquiry.

>>2271090
Hmm.

Is it unreasonable to believe in cyclical universe with no supernatural intervention? Is it reasonable to believe in a fluctuation of material states between order and chaos?

Is it unreasonable to believe in the incidental accumulation of traits which lend to survival and complexity?

God as an end-all argument is problematic. It is unfalsifiable. You declare that there is a force which has existed forever and possesses properties from which our universe arises. The only difference between "God" and the universe itself is semantics/dogma.

God, stripped of the flavor given him by various religions, is little more than the universe itself: something that has been around forever and requires no explanation. You simply give him qualities which render him impossible to talk about outside your desired context. It is starting with the solution and providing no evidence (or declaring triumphantly that everything is indisputable evidence for God).

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>>2271556
Self-Awareness is a stimulus-response feedback loop linked with the neurochemical events occurring in the brain.

So yes. Consciousness is a property of matter. When Phineas Gage got a railroad spike through his eye, he survived, but his behavior changed as a direct consequence of damage to his brain. He was a less efficient worker, less friendly, more prone to emotional outbursts.

The truth is a large part of who Phineas Gage was died with the brain damage. Certain aspects of consciousness, esp. the physical sense can be directly fucked with by fucking with the brain. It is not unreasonable to assume that the stream of consciousness concludes when the brain dies. You files do not go to heaven when you destroy your hard drive.

>>2271576
Do you think the majority of Muslims actually believe? The strength of religion comes not from true believers but binding communities and peoples together with a common thread

>>2271647
The brain is the hardware the software of consciousness runs on. If you damage your computers CPU your programs will run slower, but the programs themselves are unchanged.

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>>2271650
>The strength of religion comes not from true believers but binding communities and peoples together with a common thread

I am very aware of this.

I am frequently caught between the benefits of being part of a church community, and the indignity of lying about who I am.

I chose to lose, unfortunately. I forgo the benefits of the religious community.

This is because I think there are far better and more relevant bases upon which humans can bond, even if those bases are abstract, less accessible, and take longer to understand than religion.

>>2271599
Yes, because you would lose usable energy and information in each iteration and you would now be in heat death.

So yes, infinite regressions are impossible.

God is not a force; he's a person. A person different than we are, yet able to become one of us. He also made other beings of light who are different than we are, yet able to become one of us. He also made us.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; you're not even at the starting line yet.

>>2271647

Was the spike also conscious?

>>2271655
I can't decide whether this post is more clueless about computers or about the brain.

>>2271666
It's very hard to build a satisfying life without the right framework. A lot of people say they don't need guidance but many of them end up meandering pointlessly through life. I saw Christianity not only as a faith, but as a stepping stone to improving my life and becoming a better person. I think constant introspection is absolutely necessary for a person, and you can get that through meditation or prayer. I feel like many atheists choose to reject the frameworks of life used by many and then completely fail to build their own. What does it mean to be a 'good person'? What are your goals? What is the purpose of you continuing to exist? How do I effectively pass on my values to the next generation? All questions I feel like we do not ask ourselves often enough. At the very least Christianity gets you asking the right questions about life, even if you cannot believe in God

>>2270687
People who use the WHAT I KNOW IS UNKNOWABLE argument are retarded, that is not an argument against the fallacious nature of your God

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>>2270565
I dont think you understand what evidence is - see pic related -

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>>2269672


Why aren't you an Arian yet? Jesus HIMSELF said:

John 14:48 :
...My Father is greater than I

John 10:29:
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all...

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing....

Johh 5:30 clearly implies Jesus does not possess the quality of God. God can do everything.

Matthew 24:36:
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

This verse is talking about doomsday. This clearly state that Jesus(Son) doesn't know when is doomsday. God know everything, but Jesus doesn't know everything.

Mark 10:18
"And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

Jesus, according to him, are not even worthy to be called good. Much less a god.

Mark 12:29
"Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

The Trinity concept is refuted by Jesus.

John 5:31
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

If Jesus is god, then how come he CANNOT testify his own testimony?

Isaiah 11:2-3

2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the FEAR OF THE LORD
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD....

'God'(Jesus) fearing another God(Father)? Nonsense.

ACCORDING TO YOU CHRISTIANS, Jesus was begotten by God, which literally means he has a beginning. Thus he is not God, for God has no beginning.

Look, all of this verses shows that Jesus is NOT God. Do you not care about your Jesus said? Are you really putting your Jesus's words below the Epistles?

>>2271086
>Jesus fulfilled hundreds of messianic prophecies.

How convienent that he fulfilled all the prophecies that are impossible to verify in future times yet decided not fullfill those which would have left a huge and accessible objective record.

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>>2269672
If you don't give jackshit about what Jesus said, if you thumb sucking the from what other people say about him, then listen to Peter, the Leader of the Disciples:

Acts 2:22
"Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a """"""""""MAN"""""""""" accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

A MAN, not a god. A Prohet, not a god.

>>2270565
then how do you know it exists you idiot?

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>>2272200
>People who use the WHAT I KNOW IS UNKNOWABLE argument are retarded

>implying Wittgenstein was retarded
>implying Bertrand Russel was retarded
I think it's time for you to return to Plebbit.

>>2272248

Daniel's 70 week prophecy.
Jesus rode into Jerusalem the day Daniel said the Messiah would be raised up, and then cut off (die), but not for himself.

Artaxerxes declared the Temple could be rebuilt in March of 445 BC. Daniel made the prophecy some time around 550 BC.

And 69 weeks later, or 483 years as a week in Hebrew prophecy is 7 years, Jesus shows up on Palm Sunday.

You can verify that to your heart's content. You'll have to be a lot wiser than you are now to do the math though.

Wounded in this house of his friends? Check
Born in Bethlehem? Check
Descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David? Check
Heir to David's throne? Check
Called "God with us"? Check
Called out of Egypt? Check
Declared the Son of God? Check
Called a King? Check
Betrayed by a friend? Check
Sold out for 30 pieces of silver? Check
Silver used to buy a potter's field? Check
Falsely accused? Check
Offered no defense? Check
Crucified with criminals? Check
Hung on a tree? Check
Buried with the rich? Check
Hands and feet pierced? Check
No bones broken? Check
Given vinegar to drink? Check
Mocked and ridiculed? Check
People would cast lots for his clothes? Check
Forsaken by God? Check
Stabbed in the side? Check
Resurrected on the third day? Check
Ascend to heaven? Check
At the right hand of God? Check
Sacrifice for sin? Check

You can believe whatever you want. You're just not entitled to your own facts.

>>2272246
John 1:1 says that the Word (Jesus) was with God and was God.
In John 10:30 Jesus said that He and the Father are one.
In John 14:9 He said that anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father.
In Colossians 1:15 Paul wrote that Jesus is the (visible) image of the invisible God.
In Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is called the exact representation of God’s glory
In Hebrews 1:8 God Himself called Jesus God.
God’s Spirit is presumed to be one and the same with God just as your spirit is presumed to be one and the same with you. So if God and Jesus are one and the same, and God and His Spirit are one and the Same, then the three are one.

There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5-6). Yet there are three persons presented as deity in Scripture: the Father (John 6:27; Colossians 1:3), the Son (John 1:1-3, 14; 8:24; 20:28-29; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Samuel 23:2-3; 2 Corinthians 3:18). Lastly, these three are presented as distinct persons (John 8:16-18; Luke 11:1; 3:21-22; Galatians 4:6). Thus from Scripture we learn that although there is one God, there are three distinct persons who are deity. So the Trinity is the biblical position to hold to once one examines what Scripture teaches.

>>2272289

Because God revealed himself to mankind, for one.

And because everything properly in the bible is true, for two.

>>2272246
>study the bible just so you can refute autist on a taiwanese whicker basket weaving website

>>2272325
>Wounded in this house of his friends? Check
>Born in Bethlehem? Check
>Descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David? Check
>Heir to David's throne? Check
>Called "God with us"? Check
>Called out of Egypt? Check
>Declared the Son of God? Check
>Called a King? Check
>Betrayed by a friend? Check
>Sold out for 30 pieces of silver? Check
>Silver used to buy a potter's field? Check
>Falsely accused? Check
>Offered no defense? Check
>Crucified with criminals? Check
>Hung on a tree? Check
>Buried with the rich? Check
>Hands and feet pierced? Check
>No bones broken? Check
>Given vinegar to drink? Check
>Mocked and ridiculed? Check
>People would cast lots for his clothes? Check
>Forsaken by God? Check
>Stabbed in the side? Check
>Resurrected on the third day? Check
>Ascend to heaven? Check
>At the right hand of God? Check
>Sacrifice for sin? Check

Like I said things with evidence only in the Bible and not verifiable beyond that. Its like using Hubbards biography as proof that he was a war hero and nuclear physicist.

To rely on these as an ultimate proof is to engage in circular reasoning.

Meanwhile things which are objective like bringing world peace, gathering all the jews back to Israel and making them all respected in the world (ie things which can be demonstrated without having faith that the bible is true)


>And 69 weeks later, or 483 years as a week in Hebrew prophecy is 7 years, Jesus shows up on Palm Sunday.

Yeah because he was totally refering to a spiritual temple and not the actual temple

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>>2272331
>>2272336
Are you serious? Most of these aren't Jesus OWN words. Why you desperately to say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Jesus said? Jesus never said he was God or worship him. Even the disciples doesn't write the Gospel.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

Who is your master? Jesus or the Epistles?

>>2272340
Are you born with mental illness? No, serious question. I'm literally worried about you.

>>2272325
Psalm 22 doesn't even referred to Jesus. It talk about bulls, lions and oxens. Where the hell does that fit in Jesus Crucifixion?

>>2272392
Nah ive just been studying a bunch of religions and have started to notice how the information which is the most damming tends to come from the information sources not controlled by the group. Older religions like Christianity and Islam are luckier in this sense as they had control over what information was preserved.

Ive seen Mormons and JWs use the same methods you are.

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>>2272325
Called a king? Where?

Heir to David throne? Where? David has both spiritual and worldly kingdom. Jesus only has spritual. The Jews were sitting on the throne, not Jesus.

Called "God with us"? Emanuel? LITERALLY WHERE?

Many people are gods, according to your logic:

Eliadah or Eliada means "God knows".

Eliab means "my God is Father".

Elzaphan means "God is Protector"

Eliakim means "God raises".

Elisha means "God is Salvation".

Eleazar means "God has helped"

>>2272340
>Yeah because he was totally refering to a spiritual temple and not the actual temple

The actual temple.

483 years after the decree from captivity by Artaxerxes that the Jews could rebuild their temple, Jesus rode a colt into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.

Exactly 483 years to the date.

You can verify that for yourself.

Please do try to disprove all of those messianic prophecies; it's one of the best ways to be saved (because you'll fail to disprove any of them).

>>2272385
>Jesus never said he was God or worship him.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 1

John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I'm deadly serious, yes.

>>2272399
The Roman troops stationed there who beat him had the moniker "The Bulls of Bashaan", and their symbol was a bull.

You can verify this in Roman history, if you'd like.

>>2272420
Matthew 27:11
Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?” Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”

>>2272420
>God with us"? Emanuel? LITERALLY WHERE?

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

...

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

>>2272325
>Born in Bethlehem? Check
Never happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus#Critical_analysis

I wouldn't be surprised if the rest were made up too.

>>2272420
Matthew 1
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

>>2272430
>You can verify that for yourself.
Why is it correct to see Jesus as the Third temple and not the physical building that has yet to be built?

>Please do try to disprove all of those messianic prophecies

How can you prove or disproove something like Jesus being a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David without accepting the bible as being true as an axiom?

>>2272438
Lions?

>>2272456

Why you would take the wiki, which you yourself can edit, over the Word of God that has withstood the test of thousands of years' time, is ponderous.

And a homage to your willingness to die.

>>2272468

Because the Jews built a second temple after they came out of captivity, after the first temple was destroyed.

No temple, no Judaism.

No Covenant, no Judaism.

No High Priest, no Judaism.

Just manmade rules of conduct.

>>2272480
Can you explain this a different way because this doesnt make a lot of sense.

>>2272470
Satan and his demons.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Dogs = Gentiles, Romans, Greeks, whomever.

>>2272484

Daniel was given a prophecy of when the Messiah would appear.

The Messiah had to appear during the time of the Second Temple.

In captivity, before they were released, Daniel prophesied that 483 years after the proclamation to rebuild the temple would be issued, the Messiah would appear in Jerusalem and die.

Artaxerxes made that proclamation about a hundred years later.

483 years after that proclamation was made was Palm Sunday, the day Jesus allowed people to openly call him the Messiah.

Hosanna! Save us now!

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>>2272437
A dream. LITERALLY A DREAM. Even I can dream something like that.

During his life, he NEVER said he is god. Instead, it is the EXACT OPPOSITE >>2272246.

>>2272448
"Word" is not Emanuel.

Matthew 1:23
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"

Pay close attention, THEY WILL CALL HIM IMMANUEL. Literally no one call him that.

WILL BE CALL WILL BE CALL, sorry if I sound rude, but I just want to emphasize.

>>2272495
Oh I get you know, my issue was with the a different prophecy regarding the rebuilding of the third temple rather than that one.

When it comes to prophecies like that one it runs into the issue of competing things like Nostrodamus, Baba Vanga or fatima (let alone Eastern figures). These other figures made very accurate prophecies as well (including ones which can be tested without assuming the bible and its dating ect as an axiom), how can one accept the legitimacy of one prophecy and not others?

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>>2272446
Read the context:

33 So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?”

34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?”

35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

Look, he DENIED to be the king.

People call him a king. When asked, Jesus said, "you said so".

NOT "I AM".

>>2270578
faith isnt rational nigga

>>2272438
Holy shits you Christians bending things way too damn far.

The Psalm 22 clearly talking about a man getting killed by lions in a arena.

>>2272489
Jesus called us non-Jews gentiles? How dare him.

>>2272585
*called us 'dogs'?

i'd rather believe in myself then in a higher spirit. nothing wrong with most Christians though.

>>2272713
>i'd rather believe in myself then in a higher spirit
What does this mean?

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>>2272437
First, according to Christians, Jesus is begotten by god. Begotten literally to bring into existence, thus have a beginning. Thus cannot be god.

Second, Melchizedek is described as:

Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother and without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life...

Thus making Melchizedek a god. But Christians don't worship him, right?

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>tfw wasted 4 years of my life actually taking catholicism seriously
I'm never taking advice from 4chin again

>>2273151
Why did you leave? We all have trials anon, you'll get through it, have faith

>>2273174
Why aren't you an Arian yet?

>>2269672
Out of all the many, many religions that have existed, why choose this one? The more I study it the more I see how it was put together. The old testament has many stories that are similar to older myths and legends. It reads like a fantastic collection of culture, not truth.

I did read recently about how during the end of the last ice age the rising temperatures caused the ice caps to release enough water that a majorly important low lying area ended up 130ft below water after thousands of years. There's no way that didn't end up in myth. The area has signs of habitation going back tens of thousands of years.

I've read the old and new testiment several times, but never has it actually rang true in any way. Every time I come away from it feeling like I read a nice piece of human history, not some deep truth.

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>>2273151
How the fuck did you reach a point in your life where you adopt a religion based on advice from people posting on an image board for fans of Japanese cartoons.

>>2273194
Oh and that particular occurrence was in Mesopotamia.

>>2273198
Yeah I know. All of 4chan's evidence is invalid because it's 4chan.

>>2272438
Psalm 22:21
Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

Did lions eat Jesus after crucifixion?

>>2273221
>The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.

>>2273194
Well first off you need to realise that the OT is the history of the Jews with a LOT of embellishment and some of it is pure allegory. You'd be a fool to take Genesis literally for example and that has been an opinion dating all the way back to 200AD, even the very first Christians realized it was couching the truth in metaphor.

Consider that a random Jewish prophet was able to spread his message worldwide, and within 300 years had the Emperor of the people who killed him convert to the religion he founded. Nothing short of a miracle. 10 of the 11 Apostles that were sent out died as martyrs spreading their message. One doesn't refuse to recant their belief by threat of boiling in a pot of oil unless they are VERY sure they're right.

I mean you can make arguments for other religions. Buddhism is one I respect. Islam is an offshoot of Christianity, Muhammads family were Christians and it is glaringly obvious that he was a guy who realized the benefit of naming himself a Prophet. He fucked his followers wives and told them Allah said it was fine because he was the prophet for fucks sake. The whole story of Muhammad reads exactly like a person who is in it for personal gain. That's the reason I strike Islam out as a reasonable choice.

>>2272438

>The Roman troops stationed there who beat him had the moniker "The Bulls of Bashaan", and their symbol was a bull.


Are you a liar or just an idiot?

If you're talking about Legio VI, yes, they did use a bull as an emblem, along with a wolf, and Romulus and Remus. They were not the only Roman Legion to have a bull emblem. This, of course, has nothing to do with Bashan, which I doubt the Romans ever heard of, and had a lot to do with a founding by Caesar.

In any event, none of this is relevant, because Legio VI was only assigned to Palestine in AD 52.

>>2273237
The Bible is "artistic works of fiction and falsehoods"?!?

Wew lad

>>2269672
Not being born into a Christian family.

>>2273187
Because it's heresy. What kind of idiot follows a denomination that was deemed heretical at the very first ecumenical council

>>2273255
I don't know because Trinity was a made-up concept? The early Epistlic Father wrote NONE about Trinity doctorine in their 1200 pages they left us. Also this anon >>2272246.

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>>2273250
If you think I'm talking about the bible and not quoting the very site you're on, you need to lurk more.

>>2273263
>I don't know because Trinity was a made-up concept
Because it explains the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit without having multiple Gods? If you deny the divinity of Jesus you are not a Christian.

>>2273174
>Logically inconsistent at too many parts to count.
>Catholics belittle Protestants for their supposed cherrypicking of the Bible, even though that's figuratively the function of the Magisterium.
>High handed Papal supremacy
>Jesus far less profound than he's shilled out to be. Also more xenophobic
>Catholic preference for obscurantism throughout history, thinking the Bible shouldn't be accessed by the laity for far too long
>Church expects me to believe that Jesus chose Peter as his successor instead of his brother, even though there's no evidence Peter was chosen as the leader outside the NT; while Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria, St. Jerome, and even the book of Acts testify that James was his successor, and Jerusalem the "mother assembly".
>Deceitful, rosy picture that Paul and the apostles got along; even though Paul was repeatedly frustrated by James and Peter's delegates who were sent to reverse his teachings, and was sent by James through a humiliating purification right at the Temple, essentially publicly renouncing his own doctrines
>Church expect me to believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin, and that James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon were sons of "the other Mary". Even though Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55 couldn't be more clear.
>Smug attitude that childrape was "blown out of proportion" by the world media, even though the outrage was low compared to its spread
>Attitude of self-pity that the church was being persecuted by the international press, while men who protected childrapists are still living freely on Vatican properties in Rome
>Attitude that Evolution doesn't undermine the doctrines of original sin, the idea of "first human beings", or the sentiment that Jesus is literally the "new Adam" who reversed the disobedience of the first one; merely because the John Paul 2 said it doesn't
>Immoral absence of seriousness with historical revisionism
>Distributism essentially small, powerless secular states; and one, global Catholic church

>>2273273
Arianism had a trinity though, it just wasn't one where all three of them were equal

>>2273244
>10 of the 11 Apostles that were sent out died as martyrs spreading their message. One doesn't refuse to recant their belief by threat of boiling in a pot of oil unless they are VERY sure they're right.

This is supposed to convince me? I'm sure they thought it was the truth, but people have died for their beliefs since prehistory. I'm sure people who practiced ritual sacrifice thought they were doing the right thing as well.

All religions stem from man. They are myth and legends coupled with rules on how to live. That's my conclusion from studying them. I don't care if someone else believes it, it's their life and they can believe whatever they want. Even when it's used in the worst way, to radicalize people for violent purposes, the religion isn't at fault, the people who use it in such a way are. Just look at the crusades, for example.

I love that these ancient myths and ideas are still collected, but they are, and always have been, a product of man.

>>2273244
A lot of Chinamen were absolutely sure that Hong Xiuquan was the brother of Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure all those millions wouldn't have went to their deaths willingly unless they were absolutely sure he was right.

>>2273244
>benefit himself
Anon, Muhammad's wife were mostly old women. He married them because he wants to help support their live hood.

If he really is what you said he is, then he would have married only young women, which is not the case.

It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into "women", then they get married off. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life had always been and will always be a mandatory requirement for men to have in life. So men waited much longer than women in terms of getting married. The guy had to develop both his body and mind before he was ready for marriage.

Thus old man marrying young woman was culturally accepted back then.

>>2273244
Joseph Smith was killed by a mob and refused to recant. Does that mean he had divine truth?

Being sure about being right enough to die doesn't mean that you're not wrong or crazy.

>>2273268
Bullshit, I copypaste from biblehud and biblegateway

>>2273276
I'm going to bed, if anyone wants to argue about this I'll reply tomorrow

>>2273273
>Explain divinity
Divinity of Jesus? Where did Jesus said he is divine? The only reason why the Bible glorified Jesus was because he is a prophet, not god. See this anon >>2272285.

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>>2273323
Sleep well anon

>>2273332
You are not a Christian

>>2273376
It's not my words, it's Peter.

>>2273388
The leader of the Disciples

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>>2273336
Anime-san what is your view on the arguments expressed in this picture?

>>2273388
You are not a Christian, you are a heretic trying to subvert Christianity. Christ is Lord and you cannot argue otherwise, period.

>>2273410
I am Lord, therefore I am a Jew, therefore I am a God. Philosophy should be mandatory. I like Plato.

>>2273400
Do I need to read all of that?

>>2273419
cuck

>>2273410
Exactly, Jesus is Lord but not God, because there's only one God, the Father.

Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father.... there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ.....

>>2273400
>>2273421
Through speed reading, I agree with most, but not all.

>>2273315
>implying he wasn't
Damned Qing heathens

>>2273434
Anime san I was not >>2273421

How come Apostolic Christianity and protestants are so anti Arian?

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>>2273473
Sorry if I sound rude, but probably bacause of human cowardness. The only reason why they desperately trying to make Jesus a god was so that they can make Jesus their scapegoat.

They want Jesus to die for their sins. They want Jesus to go to Hell for their sins.

Why? Because a man can't bear the sins of the world. Eventhough God can clearly forgave sins without the need of any blood.

They want to put a blame on a righteous man. Which is pretty damnable act to do.

>>2273525
It's because Arianism is heresy. You'd need to be a special kind of retard to believe in doctrine that was dismissed over 1600 years ago and is rejected by all three major branches of Christianity.

>>2273525
Jesus is God. Rot in hell heretic scum.

>>2273532
Argument from authority.

You'd have to be a special kind of moron to be unable to win a theological debate that old if it was already resolved in your favour.

>>2273537
Not even an ad hominem, just straight up namecalling.

Try harder.

>>2273547
>We believe in one God,
>the Father almighty,
>maker of heaven and earth,
>of all things visible and invisible.

>And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
>the only Son of God,
>begotten from the Father before all ages,
>God from God,
>Light from Light,
>true God from true God,
>begotten, not made;
>of the same essence as the Father.
>Through him all things were made.
>For us and for our salvation
>he came down from heaven;
>he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
>and was made human.
>He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
>he suffered and was buried.
>The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
>He ascended to heaven
>and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
>He will come again with glory
>to judge the living and the dead.
>His kingdom will never end.

>And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
>the Lord, the giver of life.
>He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
>and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
>He spoke through the prophets.
>We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
>We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
>We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
>and to life in the world to come. Amen.

If you don't agree with that you are not Christian. You are a heretic. This is not recent news, this has been the case for over 1500 years

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>>2273537
>>2273532
Look anon, if the Trinity really is the biggest thing in Christianity, then how come it found NOWHERE in the 1200 pages that the Apostolic Fathers(Clement, Barnabas, Ignatius, Mathetes, Polycarp, Papias, Justin Martyr) left us?

How come the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible?

How can Jesus be god if he said all of these>>2272246?

Look, I'm not sugarcoating anything. I'm not bending anything. I'm just present to you what Jesus HIMSELF said.

Follow him, he is your master, not the Epistles.

>>2273556
>How come the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible?
You sound like a protestant. Not everything is in the Bible, some are traditions which are JUST AS IMPORTANT as the Bible itself. Do you dispute that Three Kings visited Jesus in Bethlehem? Because that isn't in the Bible either.

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>>2273555
>begotten
Anon, the word 'begotten' in John 3:16 is a fabrication. It's not in the most ancient Bible manuscripts.

Jesus is NOT a begotten Son of God.

But let's say that Jesus is begotten. That means Jesus is brought into existence by God, which means have a beginning. Thus cannot be God because God have no beginning.

>>2270562
Catholics aren't Christian

>>2273556
>then how come it found NOWHERE in the 1200 pages that the Apostolic Fathers
Every single one of them refers to Jesus as God many many times

>>2273564
Put a gun in your mouth and blow your brains out

>>2273525
Thanks for the answer anime-kun how did you come to learn all about this?

Would you say the gnostic views of christianity hold up to scrutiny?

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>>2273561
How about the works of the Apostolic Father then?

1 John 5:7 in KJV is the only place in the Bible where it mentions about Trinity. And this verse is a fabrication according to the most ancient manuscripts and thrown out from the bible.

Let's see what the following verse says:

1 John 5:8
the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

IN AGREEMENT, not one.

>>2273580
Please kill yourself

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>>2273555
>>2273569
>>2273581
Heed this warning. On the Second Coming, Jesus said:

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

WHO DRIVE OUT DEVILS IN JESUS NAME? WHO PERFORMS MIRACLES IN JESUS NAME? WHO? THE JEWS? THE MUSLIM? THE HINDUS?

NO, ITS YOU CHRISTIANS. JESUS WILL TELL YOU TO GET AWAY. WANT TO KNOW WHY? YOU MADE HIM INTO A GOD. THAT'S WHY.

HEED THIS WARNING. Repent, pls.

>>2273607
Hang yourself

>Christians
>take a doctrine of forgiveness and humility
>use it to act like the biggest, most judgemental, most spitefilled a-holes humanely possible

Gee I wonder why no one takes you people seriously

>>2273620
piss off ahmed

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Well, by acting in an ungodly way I've made very significant material gains (poor working parents, no handouts from the government or church for that matter) and I don't feel as if I'm missing some spiritual part of my life.

Ironically, a lot of people in my "profession" are diehard bydlo style Christians and will beat your ass if you blaspheme against god.

>>2273555
Heretic isn't an insult. It's just a fancy way of saying "disagrees with me."

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>>2273578
>where did I learn
...I rather not say it. I'm afraid it will cause a mentality barrier. If you want my source, I can e-mail you some link. My e-mail is [email protected]

>hold up to scrutiny
Never

>>2273641
ffs
This weebs """"source"""" is Ahmed Deedat, who is an infamous liar

>>2273641
>>2273578
>gnostic view
Wait, I take that back. Gnostic views of Christianity is the closest to the real Christianity that Jesus taught. Not the modern day Christianity.

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>>2273651
He is one of my source.

Well, he did made a series of debate with several Christians scholars, Jimmy Swaggart for example.

Why don't you watch several of his debate with Christians missionary and see how they counter Deedat's argument.

Maybe you can counter mine as well. Please watch both side and decide for yourself who is right or wrong?

Here's with Jimmy Swaggart:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IlA22NNFlDw

>>2273641
Thanks sent you a message.

>>2273653
With that in mind how should one view the whole peter being the rock or the gates of hell not prevailing against the church given gnositicism being so fragmented and lost.

Since this is a likely thread to ask in

What is the Scottish equivalent of the Church of England in tradition, dioceses etc?

>>2273777
Some of the Episcopalians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Episcopal_Church

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>>2273651
Oh wow, his source for Christ not being divine is a Muslim, go figure

>>2273565
And what are we exactly then?

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>>2273693
>>2273651
>>2273792
As I said in >>2273674, it's a debate between decent Christians missionary. Decide for yourself who's right or wrong. But please WATCH IT ALL, so that you can heard arguments from both sides.

About Mr. Deedat, he can be a bit harsh sometimes. He doesn't have the fortune to go to a university like you and me. If you're hurt by his talks, know that he doesn't intend to hurt your feelings, it's just the way he talks. He just wants to spread Jesus message.

Anyway, watch the debate, and decide for yourself who's right or wrong.

Here's another one:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kXIBBCcJfRc

Just watch it on your free time. Cheers anon.

>>2273815
Are you a muslim?

>>2273823
I believe in Jesus and put his words as TOP PRIORITY. That's all I'm willing to say. Sorry, I afraid it'll cause mentality barrier between Christbros and me.

>>2273838
No worries I know how partisan /his/ is.

>>2273838
To be fair what you're saying is already heresy to any mainstream Christian. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutheranism all reject your claim that Jesus Christ was just a dude so there's already a barrier. What you're saying goes against almost every branch of Christianity because the fundamental core of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is divine

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>>2273846
No, I didn't say that. If you look at >>2272246, these are all Jesus saying. I'm only quoting, aren't I?

Now, if you read about John 10:33, you'll see that the Jews accused him of being divine, if you read the John:34-38, you'll see that Jesus REFUTE against the claim of him being divine.

"But why did the Jews throw stones at him?"
The Jews are always looking for a fight. Heard of the saying, "if you want to look for a fight, just look around the corner. You don't have to look far." Jesus said to the Jews:

John 8:37
...Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

Now, if you look at the Church teachings, you'll see that they use the Apostles words, most of the time, NOT Jesus OWN words.

I follow what Jesus said. I hope you'll also do the same.

>>2273874
>I follow what Jesus said. I hope you'll also do the same.
"I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

Hope you're prepared to die in your sins buddy.

>>2273874
Why would the Apostles words be any less valid than Jesus words considering they were filled with the Holy Spirit? The Bible is infallible and the Bible clearly says Jesus is divine. Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit allowed erroneous text into the Bible, or the Bible itself is somehow erroneous?

>>2269672
Not being from a western-influenced culture.

>>2269672
Sure, magic doesn't exist.

If however you think magic does exist you would be literally better off with some other belief system then an abrahamic one unless you value being a tedious bore.

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>>2273881
>John 8:24
When Jesus said "I am he", he doesn't mean that he is God, but the Messiah(meaning savior) that is prophesied in the OT.

Messiah(also means Christ) is not a god, just a messenger from God.

John 8:28
...you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

"Nothing on my own", "speak just what the Father has taught me". Sounds like a prophet to me.

And yes, I believe Jesus is the Messiah.

>>2273895
The Bible is the Word of God himself and states Jesus was divine. You contradict the world of God? Seems like the highest authority of all.

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>>2273888
First, I put Jesus own words higher than the Apostles.

Second, regarding Holy Spirit see >>2269364.

Third, Peter, the Leader of Disciples, said >>2272285, which contradict the some works of other disciples in the Bible.

Fourth, Jesus own words contradict some verse that other people said about him, aren't they?

Why should we put more weight on what other people said about Jesus than the man himself? Agree?

>>2273904
Anon, please don't kill me for this, but >>2269364. We got to look at the archeological facts.

>>2273909
>First, I put Jesus own words higher than the Apostles.
You shouldn't. The Bible is divinely inspired, it is the Word of God as though it had come from his mouth. Those words are not just the Apostles words, they are Gods words as proven by the fact they are in the Bible and inspired by the Holy Spirit. You think you can contradict Gods words? God himself says Jesus was divine. The highest authority of all. Check and mate.

>>2273912
>We got to look at the archeological facts
The archeological facts state Muhammad was a pedophile who set himself up as a false prophet because he wanted to fuck his followers wives. Truth hurts bud.

>>2273913
>>bible
>>anything other then a book of made up nonsense
lol

Why in the fuck did hiroshimoot not give us a separate containment board for you retards.

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>>2273920
Euphoric

>>2273919
See >>2273317. Tell me anon. Do you accept this as the words of God?

Numbers 31:35-40
"[From the captives of war] 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.......of which the tribute for the LORD was 32 [among them were virgin girls]

Leave out prophets, YOUR GOD, ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE, HAVE SEX WITH THESE VIRGINS GIRLS.

DO YOU ACCEPT THAT AS A WORD OF GOD?

I never belittle Jesus. Low move motherfucker. Very low.

>>2273933
>I never belittle Jesus
Except for the fact you've made like 50 posts denying his divinity. I'm tired of dealing with your bullshit where you're cherry picking verses from the Bible and trying to claim they are somehow more authoritative than other parts because those are the parts that support your religion. The entire Bible is the word of God. All of it. Including the parts that say Jesus is divine. Arianism was rejected in 321, if you want to make arguments about how Jesus Christ was just a man travel back in time 1700 years and make them then.

>>2273942
>travel back in time 1700 years and make them then.

Just because something happened long ago doesn't make it legitimate real life has proven time and time again that political subterfuge can control (if not more easily) councils/groups than the truth can

>>2273964
Yes but if it was contested at all within Christianity why do all three major branches of Christianity recognize the trinity? Was the great schism about the trinity? No. Was the Protestant Reformation about the trinity? No.

The doctrine of the trinity is not debated at all within the major sects of Christianity, it is accepted as fact. It's not as if there havn't been plenty of opportunities to schism over it. But as it is only a few minor Protestantism groups deny the doctrine of the trinity.

As it is if the Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican churches ALL agree on the doctrine of the trinity I am inclined to consider the matter settled. It is not a contentious issue at all within Christianity so why should any Christian dispute it?

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>>2273913
Anon, no. The Bible are written in third-person. Leave out being written/spoken by the Father and Jesus, even the disciples's authorship is in question.

Matthew 9:9
As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

Look, if Matthew wrote this, then he should used first-person, not third-person. Leave out that, if Matthew wrote this, the he should wrote 'I' or 'me' in that verse.

Look, I may have an ulterior motive, but even the Christians scholars argue the authorship of the Bible. What ulterior motive do they have? See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

>>2273977
It doesn't matter who the authors were, they were guided by the Holy Spirit and thus their writings can be considered the word of God

>"To assure verbal precision God, in communicating his revelation, must be verbally precise, and inspiration must extend to the very words. This does not mean that God dictated every word. Rather his Spirit so pervaded the mind of the human writer that he chose out of his own vocabulary and experience precisely those words, thoughts and expressions that conveyed God's message with precision. In this sense the words of the human authors of Scripture can be viewed as the word of God. "

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>>2273942
Look, I use Jesus own words. I'm not cherry picking anything. The Bible are according to the Disciples, IE the disciples wrote it.

Are you saying that the Disciples words weight as much as your master?

Look, I'm only trying to show you your master words. He is a righteous man, and I want to spread his words.

If you're not up for a civilized argument, then fine. But please read my posts. I'm spreading Jesus words.

If you accept the Nicene Creed, then do you accept "homousian"?

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>>2273973
See this anon >>2266723

>>2273985
Please see >>2269364

This is an argument against >>2273913. Saying that all the Bible are God words.

But I do believe that everything Jesus said is God's words.

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>>2273973
>Yes but if it was contested at all within Christianity why do all three major branches of Christianity recognize the trinity?

Because they are all descended from the branch that triumphed and literally destroyed the teachings and works of the Arians and all the arugments within - who knows perhaps they had their own church father support.

Protestants and The Orthodox were able to schism given thier political and economic power which the Arians lacked.

>>2273567
Really? Give me one verse from them.

What is the best Orthodox Bible?

>>2273973
In the Council of Nicea, they debated for a very very very long time. 50/50 of them took Arius and Athenasius sides. What do you mean "few minor"? Those are all Bishops, and those people are all inspired.

>>2274005
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God

>>2274043
Fine, you win. But that anon's point still stands, there's not one word about Trinity in their works.

Does anyone know the phrase that is spoken by someone who is converting to Christianity? Does it have a term?

>>2274043
and yet, there were many Christians who didn't believe Christ be a God, some had him as an angel, some as a son of Joseph
Their writings and teachings didn't survive, and their holy men are silent now. But to think that "early Christians believed Christ is a God" isn't entirely true - SOME of them believed that, but some of them didn't
but those who believed triumphed, so the other ones are beyond our perception now

>>2273985
Not that anon, but wasn't 7 books were thrown out from Roman Catholic Bible? In conclusion, these are not merely "verbal" or "vocabulary" issues, it's creating new fake Bible books. Remember, they're insipred by the Holy Spirit.

>>2274233
and who actually said that they were inspired? and based on what?

>>2274243
They claim so. Every Christians claims so.

>>2274253
Ethiopian Christians claim that Book of Enoch is divinely inspired
is it, or not?

>>2274256
They claim it, so it must be true.

>>2273754
Sorry, didn't notice your reply. I'm afraid to make any comments about that.

Because I believe that Peter is also the follower of the true Christian, it just that the ones that continuing the works of Peter did a really poor job delivering Peter's true teaching.

>The gate of hell never overcome it
Yes, I believe that who follow Peter's true teaching, hell will never touch him. But nowhere does it say that Peter teachings will not be corrupted. It just that the people who follow his true teaching will never be touched by hell.

>>2274133
Really? No one gonna help me? Guess I go fuck myself.

>>2274455
there is no such phrase
when you are christened, you should speak some kind of credo which differs from church to church

>>2274467
Oh, I thought there's some kind of universal creed that aligned with most church. Thanks friend.

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this is all you need

>>2273925
>>fuhdora maymay
Nice try faggot.

Christardation is still dumb and you are also dumb if you believe in it.

>>2275140
This actually doesn't provide any good reason to believe in your religion sorry. It just means the bible got copied a lot.

I don't want to feel guilty for sucking cock.

>>2275140
Want to see the equivalent for the Pali Canon and the Koran, you dopey cunt?

>>2275276
And much sooner to the events, making it far more reliable than any of those other works.

>>2275461

So stop.

>>2275480
>Pali Canon

Couple hundred copies, closest 454 years after death of Buddha, who stayed dead iirc.

I don't think you understand how the chart works.

As to the true quran, they hide it. Nobody can see it, read it, or inspect it.

Because guess what?

It's changed over the centuries.

>>2275509
>im-fucking-plying bible translations haven't changed dramatically over the centuries

>>2275509

>the true quran, they hide it. Nobody can see it, read it, or inspect it.

That's absolute bullshit. Firstly because the Quran was never intended to be a written document, otherwise Muhammad would have fucking written it down, and secondly they found the oldest existing one (c 640 AD) last year

>>2275509
Are you mentally ill?

>>2275539

99.5% intact, yes. There are some spelling variants, idioms and copyist errors, if you'd like to base your reality on those 0.5%.

>>2275547
An illiterate mentally ill man would have written it down.

kek

Do more digging.

>>2275594
No, I'm not a muslim. Thanks for your concern.

>>2275612
Anon, I don't think so. You're in need of attention. Mentally attention. No, I'm not joking.

You literally denied the fact that the Quran is based on the ancient manuscripts that is 30-40 years apart from Muhammad lifetime.

The ancient Bible manuscripts is at least 500-600 years old.

Seek mental help.

>>2275642
*500-600 years apart from Jesus lifetime

>>2275612
Anon, some anon goes apeshit about your bible, here >>2275705.

He spouting how the Bible is "sexual" and "filthy". He also quote Bible verse to support his case.

>>2273624
What profession?

Dear Arian-chan, whoever you are

I agree with you but unfortunately it is hard to ignore the amount of Christians that seem to have gone the way of Babylon. Is this the apostasy? I don't know, I don't know why the good lord (lol, get the reference?) would allow so many people to be misinformed.

>>2275949

>I don't know why the good lord (lol, get the reference?) would allow so many people to be misinformed.

eternal reward isn't just handed out

>>2269672
Christianity is boring.

>>2275971

True, but people or going to be deprived of their reward because of Babylon the Great. And it's easy to get confused.

And is it any coincidence that the three centers of worship (Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca) in all three abrahamic religions are each built on seven hills? I think not.

>>2275973

The way the old testament compliments the new is very interesting. Check out the parallels between Daniel and Revelations, or maybe Isaiah and Revelations.

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>>2275949
As I've said human are cowards by nature. They don't want to take responsibility. They want someone to take the blame for them.

Not gonna lie, I too wish that it is so. But for a righteous man to be killed for our sins, and for someone like Hitler to be entitled to eternal salvation, it's pretty damnable facts to accept.

>>2273779
Thanks, i've been looking into it for a while but I wasn't sure if it was CoS since it's Presybetarian and the Episcopalian Church

>>2276105
>But for a righteous man to be killed for our sins
That was the whole point of Jesus coming to Earth, to die for our sins.

>>2275642

The quran was memorized in Mohammad's time, and then put down in writing when one of the four men who had it memorized was killed in battle.

The winner of that battle determined which of the three men's version he liked best, and murdered everyone who disagreed with him, and destroyed all of the other copies.

The bible was written within years of Jesus' resurrection, as far as the New Testament is concerned. The OT was finished 400 years before Jesus was born.

The earliest copies of the NT are dated within 30 years of its completion.

The quran is what you get when satan mumbles into the ear of an insane psychotic murderous pedophile for 20 years.

You can live your life by it, if you choose, and then follow Mohammad into hell.

>>2275715

It's true. The bible reflects reality. A city of depraved homosexuals attempted to forcibly sodomize strangers (who happened to be angels in human form).

Upon the report of those angels, the entire plain that Sodom and Gomorrah sat upon was destroyed by fire and brimstone from heaven.

>>2275949

Rome is Babylon.
Roman Catholicism is Mystery Babylon.
The pope is the False Prophet.

So, many people, more than a billion now living, have gone the way of Babylon.

>>2275642
>The ancient Bible manuscripts is at least 500-600 years old.
The most ancient book of the Bible is Thessalonians 1, written in 52 AD

>>2275973

It's the opposite of boring. But knowing how much you godless people hate being bored, Jesus kindly sets you on fire forever so that you have something to bitch about.

>>2276105

Nobody is entitled to eternal salvation.

It is a gift.

Hitler did not accept that gift.

>>2276175
>The pope is the False Prophet.
Muhammad is the False Prophet. He perverted the teachings of Christ so he could fuck his followers wives.

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>>2275949
Human cowardness is only part of the cause. But most who know the Truth kept quiet about it. Yes, I'm talking about my people. My people. Those selfish bastards that want to keep Heaven for themselves.

Imagine, they're willing to put their neck on the line for their religion, but they DON'T EVEN OPEN THEIR MOUTH to tell you and me the Truth.

Useless cowards, castrated animals. That's my people. WE DESERVE TO BE WHERE WE ARE TODAY because we don't even open our mouth.

Prophet Muhammad HONOR Mother Mary from false accusations. Why would an Arab honor a Jew?

So yeah, I think that about sum it up.

>>2276179
The evidence for much earlier dating of the gospels to the early 40's is piling up.

Luke wrote Acts, and it appears that Saul/Paul witnessed the stoning of Stephen, beginning his rise in the Sanhedrin. Stephen was the first martyr, and died in the 30's AD.

>>2276184

Mohammad is a false prophet.

The pope is the False Prophet, the one in Revelation who will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire.

>>2276182
Hitler was a Christian. And what is the path to salvation? Yes, you only got to believe, never mind how many Jews he kill.

>>2276186

Whenever you have something of value, the bible in this case, you have people who counterfeit it.

In this case, the quran is a counterfeit of the New Testament, and should be called out for what it is. A different gospel about a different Jesus told to a man by an angel, and thus accursed.

>>2276193
Hitler was a Catholic.

The path to salvation is Jesus; confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, and you will be saved.

>>2276165

>The bible was written within years of Jesus' resurrection

The earliest gospel is Mark which was probably written around 30 years after Jesus' death.

The Koran was codified, definitively, by Uthman less than 20 years after Muhammad's death.

>>2276199
As I stated above, the evidence for a much earlier dating of the gospels is piling up.

The "before 70 AD" meme is due to the lack of mentioning that the temple had been destroyed.

The attempt to push them all right to 70 AD is to put distance between the events and the recording of the events, as though that would diminish the authority of the Word of God.

There's no reason to believe the gospels were not written by the end of the 40's, except for John's.

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>>2276194
>>2276191
>>2276184
>>2276165
Mark my words anons:

I WILL NEVER ACCEPT THAT JESUS KILLS INNOCENT CHILDREN (Revelation 2:22-23)

If hell is my place, so be it. I WILL NEVER SAY THAT JESUS DO SUCH AN HORRIBLE ACT.

>>2276196
Regardless, Hitler believe that Jesus died for our sins. According to you Christians, then that should be enough for salvation after horrible things that he did.

>>2276253

I don't know what you mean by "innocent", but I do know that Jesus takes all children killed to himself, to live as his children in heaven forever.

So their lot is actually quite substantially better than yours.

>>2276261
No, no he did not. He hated Christians, and thought the Roman Catholic Church was too weak to finish what they had started: the eradication of all Jews.

>>2276261

And again, this is quite simple.

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Nothing about "knowing he died for your sins" explicitly mentioned in Romans 10:9-10, is there.

>>2275480
Yeah that would be nice

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>>2276165
>part was loss
Islam spread quite far in the time of Muhammad. During his life, the quran was written on dry bones, palm leaves, ect. And many of the companion memorize the whole Quran accurately.

So, during the first caliph, all the written Quran was compiled and make a book. Remember, it spread far. It highly likely that they got all the pieces, then verified by the companions.

>version burn
No, it not a version. A version is different from other versions(extra chapter, verse, different story, ect).

It more like a slang. Islam spread very far. So people from other countries(different Arabic slang) who has been converted to Islam write the Quran from what they heard. They tends to miswrite the Quran.

Kind of like how you Western call the third caliph, "Uthman, Othman, Ottman".

So, the third caliph burn those piles and compiled a universal Quran. It's roughly 20-30 years after Muhammad.

Here, read it, though I damn well know you won't, but here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran

>>2276332
Controlled dessimination.

Murder if anything changed.

Quite different from how the bible was spread.

You can believe your murderous psychotic pedophile was a "holy man", if you'd like.

There's consequences for that you are unprepared to pay.

>>2276335
Not that anon, but you do know that you can edit the wiki? Edit it out.

I pray in the name of your God that rape 32 virgins >>2273933 and your Jesus that kill innocent children. Amen.

>>2276385
Oh and also, in the name of your god who also have sex with a man's wife.

Yes; Constantine was a cuckold.

>>2276394
And in the name god who order the killing of suckling children.

And in the name of "Hey, I know. Let's dash the Jews children with stone. They're Jews, so it's okay."-God. Amen.

Amen with me Christians. Amen.

>>2276407
>Trying to argue Islam has the moral high ground
lol
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/jesus-muhammad.aspx

>>2276407
In the name of the Bible that allow father to finger his daughter. Amen.

In the name of the Prince of Peace who kill innocent children.

In the name of god that inseminate Mary.

In the name of 12 years old Mary who married a 99 years old Joseph.

Amen. Bible is wonderful. Amen. AnimeAnon, you're wrong. To hell with civilized argument. We are right, you are wrong. We're going to heaven along with Hitler.

Amen with me. Amen.

>>2276415
Yes, let's Amen together.

Jesus, who kills innocent children, I pray in your name. Amen.

Together /his/, AMEN

>>2276415
I pray in the name of the Bible, that allows the killing of helpless suckling,

and the dashing of innocent helpless children with stones.

Amen

>>2276415
ANON ANON ANON, AMEN WITH ME. AMEN WITH ME!!!!

>>2276426
Muhammad who has sex which children, owns slaves, murders not only children but kills indiscriminately, who advocates beheading, kills apostates, ENSLAVES children and is cool with raping women in front of their husbands.

Yeah definitely a more moral man than Jesus Christ who was celibate, advocated total pacifism, never killed anyone, never owned slaves, never raped or assaulted women.

Open your eyes, you are following Satan himself right into Hell. Muhammad was everything Jesus Christ told people NOT to be. An adulterer, murderer, slave owner who died fat and rich from all the morons who followed him thinking he was a prophet

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>>2276433
>Implying the Quran doesn't advocate for the killing of children

>>2276415
AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN

AMEN TO THE DASHING OF HELPLESS LITTLE CHILDREN WITH STONES

AMEN WITH ME ANON!!! AMEN WITH ME!!!

>>2276385
I only deal with the truth of the Word of God. I don't waste my time reading or editing wiki.

>>2276446
Yes, the babylonians and assyrians who did that to the innocent Hebrew babies were truly monsters.

And you are truly their brother.

Jesus raised a little girl from the dead.

He killed no one.

>>2276418

I see the demons are growing louder and louder.

What happens when (you) get lost in the dark, and (they) take over?

>>2276445
>>2276439
YES YES YES, AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN FOR THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CHILD. AMEN FOR MARY WHO 12 YEARS OLD MARY WHO MARRIED 99 YEARS OLD JOSEPH. AMEN FOR GOD WHO INSEMENATE SOMEONE'S WIFE.

AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN

>>2276447
>>2276455
>>2276458
AMEN WITH ME BROTHERS, FOR WE JUSTIFY THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CHILDREN!!!

AMEN WITH ME!!!

>>2270578
Rationality is emotional. Everything is emotional.
>>2270723
You are blindly subordinate to countless institutions, Last Man.
>>2270912
Reason and logic are nonentities. Proof is nonexistent. You are a mental slave and will only free yourself through an instantaneous relation to the ontological whole.
>>2271599
waaah i cant apply my ideology to it ;c
>>2273194
Here's why you've found nothing: you are very stupid.

Christianity as a meta-ontology only gives it more authority. It is the mysticism of not one culture, but very many.

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>O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.

Fucking lol Muhammad was a beta who was too afraid to ask his dinner guests to leave so he created a verse about it

>>2276455
YES YES YES, THOSE MONSTERS FILTHY FUCKING HELPLESS CHILDREN THAT CANT EVEN FEED THEMSELVE!

KILL THEM, THEY'RE MONSTER!

AGAIN, AMEN WITH ME. WHY ARENT WE AMEN TOGETHER? FOR OUR GOD INSEMENATE SOMEONE'S WIFE?

>>2276471
YES YES YES!!! THIS VERSE IS FILTHY.

AMEN WITH ME, SAY IN THE NAME OF JESUS WHO KILLS CHILDREN.

>>2276480
At least at the very end of the thread your true intentions are revealed. Better luck next time trying to get people to believe Jesus was not divine, Satan

AMEN WITH ME! IT IS OUR PRIVILEGE TO DASH HELPLESS LITTLE CHILDREN WITH STONES!

AMEN WITH ME! FOR WE CAN KILL SUCKLING NO QUESTION ASKED!

NO OTHER RELIGION IS ALLOWED TO DO THAT. WE CAN DO THAT!

AMEN WITH ME! AMEN WITH ME!

>>2276468
To get an idea of what I am implying, read something like the Will to Believe and strip it of its secular humanism and psychology.

Belief is not a psychological necessity, then, but an all-encompassing expression of power. Moreover, it is not a right or want, but rather it is a necessity to escape nihilism and epistemological solipsism.

>>2276462

What happens when (you) get lost in the dark, and (they) take over?

Can you speak during those times?

Or only scream in silence?

>>2276486
YES YES YES, I AM THAT ANIMEANON. HE, FOR GOD KNOWS WHERE RIGHT NOW, IS ACTUALLY TWO PERSON. I AM THAT OTHER ANIMEANON.

YES YES YES, TRUE. MY TRUE INTENTIONS IS TO UPHOLD THE LAW OF DASHING HELPLESS LITTLE CHILDREN WITH STONES.

AMEN!!!

ANIMEANON, AMEN WITH ME!!!

AMEN WITH ME!!!

>>2276486
YES YES YES, THAT ANIMEANON CAN GO TO HELL.

HE DOESNT ACCEPT THAT JESUS KILL INNOCENT CHILDREN.

WE ACCEPT IT. AMEN WITH ME!

16 One day two women[a] came to King Solomon, 17 and one of them said:

Your Majesty, this woman and I live in the same house. Not long ago my baby was born at home, 18 and three days later her baby was born. Nobody else was there with us.

19 One night while we were all asleep, she rolled over on her baby, and he died. 20 Then while I was still asleep, she got up and took my son out of my bed. She put him in her bed, then she put her dead baby next to me.

21 In the morning when I got up to feed my son, I saw that he was dead. But when I looked at him in the light, I knew he wasn’t my son.

22 “No!” the other woman shouted. “He was your son. My baby is alive!”

“The dead baby is yours,” the first woman yelled. “Mine is alive!”

They argued back and forth in front of Solomon, 23 until finally he said, “Both of you say this live baby is yours. 24 Someone bring me a sword.”

A sword was brought, and Solomon ordered, 25 “Cut the baby in half! That way each of you can have part of him.”

26 “Please don’t kill my son,” the baby’s mother screamed. “Your Majesty, I love him very much, but give him to her. Just don’t kill him.”

The other woman shouted, “Go ahead and cut him in half. Then neither of us will have the baby.”

27 Solomon said, “Don’t kill the baby.” Then he pointed to the first woman, “She is his real mother. Give the baby to her.”

28 Everyone in Israel was amazed when they heard how Solomon had made his decision. They realized that God had given him wisdom to judge fairly.

>>2276506
YES! THEY WILL SCREAM. WE WILL LAUGH TOGETHER WITH HITLER IN HEAVEN!

AYY LMAO

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

>>2276468
>you are very stupid

But anon, God made me this way. Why would he deny me his light like this? How is that fair?

GOD PLOW MARY MISSIONARY STYLE

AMEN WITH ME!

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

>>2276530

Are (you) even there anymore?

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>>2276544


No, God does Anal.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.