Nihilism

>>2267719

Jesus.

The person nihilism seeks to disprove.

>>2267727
God is long dead now.

>>2267719
why is Friedrich the pic related?
He was AGAINST nihilism.

Pretty much in the same basket as yourself, OP. My prolonged, circa 5-6 months long existential crisis led me to the in-depth study of works by various existentialists, from Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche to absurdists like Camus.

"Nihilism" as a phenomenon or rather, a state of being, a reality, is itself an irrefutable concept.

It's just that a great majority of people are bent on pursuing escapism in hopes of diminishing the gaping void of hopelessness that is a direct product of facing the cruel truth at hand.

Even if you incorporate the concept of afterlife and God into it all, the mere thought of endless existence is far more terrifying to me than a possibly transient one, even though it would supposedly be a blissful one, depending on which flavor of religion you subscribe to.

>>2267719

I agree with existential and moral nihilism but would disagree with your assertion that existence is nothing but a struggle. Existence being ultimately meaningless does nothing to prevent you experiencing it for what it is and gaining internal satisfaction from it.

>>2267773
>existence is nothing but a struggle

This is easily verifiable by the fact that the common aspect of existence of every single living being that has existed and will exist, is suffering. This, alongside birth and death, is the inevitable fate that every being has experienced.

I could go into depth on how suffering and pain outweigh and leave a more blatant, more significant impact on our psyche and being in contrast to any form of delights, but I think it would create a needless digression.

>>2267719
>but nihilism is truth isn't it.
Yes.

>Existence being ultimately meaningless does nothing to prevent you experiencing it for what it is and gaining internal satisfaction from it.
Your internal satisfaction is just as meaningless as everything else. The end state of the universe is a scattering of atoms at the lowest possible energy state. At that point whether John Doe enjoyed his life doesn't matter to anything or anyone since his consciousness was snuffed out billions of years ago.

In the end the difference between a person who existed and a person who never existed is null.

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If there is no truth how can nihilism be the truth?

>>2267828
When you look at it that way, death itself truly is something of great beauty, to be cherished. A single form in which we all can find absolute, purest form of equality.

>>2267719
Nothing matters in this world,and everything will meet the same fate in the end,and that is death.
That is why the only thing that can "matter' is what you think matters.The point of nihilism is that you should be depressed and unmotivated because nothing matters,but that you should seek things in life that fulfill YOU and make YOU HAPPY.Do the things that you value,not what you have been told to value.

>>2267828
>giving a fuck what some nonexistent imaginary observer will think about my life at the heat death of the universe
>le does so it's meaningless

Cucked by objectivity. Subjectivity justifies itself you tedious boor

>>2267847
But how can one live a life which itself is a glaring contradiction in one's psyche? If you come to a full realization of the meaningless nature of existence and the thought itself continues to constantly erode the back of your mind, how is happiness even attainable to a person like this?

>>2267849
The point is there will be observers and any trace that you ever existed will be scoured from the universe. Again, at the end of the universe what is the difference between a person who did exist and a person who didn't exist? Nothing. The fact that you had a brief flicker of existence between enormous voids of nothing doesn't mean a thing.

>>2267827

It's not the only common aspect, most humans have experienced a wide variety of emotions. I'm not denying it's a particularly powerful emotion. Obsessing exclusively on suffering as if it were the only experience possible doesn't seem to me to be something you have to accept just because life is meaningless.


>>2267828
>In the end the difference between a person who existed and a person who never existed is null.

Yes, but if it doesn't matter you might as well not get emotionally invested in needing to have the universe acknowledge your existence.

>>2267871
On the contrary, the fact these enormous voids of nothing flickered into life and song means everything.

>>2267868

You could try reflecting on why exactly the thought itself bothers you so much. Is it really so bad if your life has no meaning? Why exactly is it bad?

>>2267873
The reason I have offered it as a common aspect is purely one made from my observation. I will grant you a simple, somewhat crude example of my line of thoughts:

Imagine a birth of a child, with the spark of its life being extinguished mere moments after. Can you truly claim that the child has experienced anything else than pure, unfiltered suffering of its own existence?

This absurdity is precisely why I chose to define suffering as a unifying bond of us all.

>>2267877
Not from an objective point of view.

>>2267868
Nothing "objectively" matters,and in the end you will die anyways.
So why waste time and life doing stuff which you do not like and not value,when you can be spending that limited time doing things which you like and value.

>>2267891

I understand why you defined it that way and your baby example.

However what I'm asking is why treat this example as the ultimate summary of your existence when you are not a baby who died at birth. Your life experience certainly has no meaning, but it doesn't necessarily need to be just suffering. Most people suffer but they don't suffer endlessly and without pause, they have good times and bad times.

Some people would even argue that suffering can provide satisfaction itself in the long term due to its ability to build character.

>>2267912
>So why waste time and life doing stuff which you do not like and not value,when you can be spending that limited time doing things which you like and value.
Because both are inherently and equally meaningless once my own consciousness becomes unable of comprehending my own life/existence.

>>2267918
>However what I'm asking is why treat this example as the ultimate summary of your existence when you are not a baby who died at birth

I may have offered you a wrong impression of my thoughts, and for this I stand at fault. I rather take fascination with suffering due to aforementioned reasons, and I merely wished to clarify that suffering, regardless of its magnitude, length or other, is a quintessential aspect of our existence.

The original premise in the OP argued that existence is nothing but a struggle, which I believe is reinforced as an idea by exploring the nature of suffering in its depth.

>>2267896
>life doesn't objectively exist

Who gives a fuck about the objective, you sound like that faggot cuck sibling who threatens to tell on his other siblings when they're doing something mommy doesn't like

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>nihilism is truth isn't it

Wrong right off the bat

>>2267925

>has the insight to realize life and everything you do in it is inherently meaningless.

>cannot accept the reality that the only two choices are to suffer or commit suicide

pleb/10

>>2267941
Nihilism itself is not a philosophical stance or an idea one can choose whether to subscribe to or not. It is an observable fact, an undeniable truth of our being.

If you really can't contribute to the thread and discussion, you'd be far better off in one of those >H>R>E threads or something like that.

>>2267950
I don't even understand what in the hell are you trying to say here. I won't even bother to inquire how did you reach that conclusion based on the statements you've quoted.

>>2267773
>but would disagree with your assertion that existence is nothing but a struggle

That is what I take away from evolutionary reasoning. All things exist to compete with one another to survive and reproduce in an endless struggle. These things may experience joy, horror, whatever, it makes no difference as their emotions are only present (or not in the case of most things) to assist them in their struggle. Satisfaction would be an emotion devised to prevent you from destroying what you have created and essentially make you maintain what you have built. It exists only because it was a useful trait to help your predecessors survive and reproduce, there is nothing divine about it.

>>2267934

I'm still a little unclear on where you're coming from then. Do you believe existence is nothing but a struggle or do you believe it has other aspects to it?

The source of my disagreement is the second part of the OP's premise - that because existence is meaningless it means that we "only" exist to struggle.

>>2267960

choice is clear, become an hero.

>>2267950
>baby's first ebin nihilism post

Wow bro yes I too have seen fight club

>>2267950
>cannot accept the reality that the only two choices are to suffer or commit suicide

I have a likely naive hope I will find a better answer some day.

>>2267969
>he hasn't transcended the illusory false nihilism vs. eternalism dichotomy

there are levels to woke

>>2267969

you will wither and die, likely with many regrets for having spent too long seeking answers to questions that did not matter and not long enough actually living.

just like everyone else.

>>2267960

So you mean we exist to struggle in a Darwinian sense? Ok I understand you better now, I thought you meant that struggle was the only net result rather than the reason we're here.

I agree with that, I would just say that it needn't define your existence though. It's a fact but we're capable of experiencing reality even in full acknowledgement of that fact.

>>2267727
Oh shut up, Christcuck. You're not the only religion.

>>2267976
>eternalism dichotomy

you will wither and die, likely with many regrets for having spent too long seeking answers to questions that did not matter and not long enough actually living.

just like everyone else.

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>>2267719
I like to drink red wine. This girl says "Doesn't red wine give you a headache?" "Yeah, eventually! But the first and the middle part are amazing." I'm not gonna stop doing something 'cause of what's gonna happen at the end. "Mitch, you want an apple?" "No, eventually it'll be a core."

>>2267976
I'm listening.

>>2267977
>questions that did not matter

If this does not matter what does?

>>2267978
>I would just say that it needn't define your existence though

I want the answer to why. I know I can live without it, but how should I live?

>>2267962
I can't say I have a firm belief on either of the two ideas. I perceive both suffering and by extension - struggle, as fundamental and primary aspects on the road from point A to point B, the points naturally being birth and death. This conclusion as I've said, I base on the fact that these three things remain the sole elements that all the living beings have went through. Think of it along the lines of a loosely applied universal rule of sorts.

As you have pointed out formerly, we don't have to necessarily obsess over this fact, but ultimately, it remains an inevitable part of our reality, whereas all manner of delights, be they pleasure, joy or else, are purely optional and more often than not, unattainable goals in one's life.

>>2267951

>It is an observable fact, an undeniable truth of our being.

[citation needed]

>>2267988
So I should become a hedonist?

>>2268007
An epicurean hedonist, yes.

The final conclusion of nihilism is accepting that literally nothing you can do has meaning, so you just do whatever you want anyway. Construct narratives, make art, be great.

>>2268010
That's essentially what I am doing now, no tranquility or absence of pain yet however.

>>2268010
http://classics.mit.edu/Epicurus/menoec.html

Accustom yourself to believe that death is nothing to us, for good and evil imply awareness, and death is the privation of all awareness; therefore a right understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not by adding to life an unlimited time, but by taking away the yearning after immortality. For life has no terror; for those who thoroughly apprehend that there are no terrors for them in ceasing to live. Foolish, therefore, is the person who says that he fears death, not because it will pain when it comes, but because it pains in the prospect. Whatever causes no annoyance when it is present, causes only a groundless pain in the expectation. Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. It is nothing, then, either to the living or to the dead, for with the living it is not and the dead exist no longer.

>>2268016
You just need to work on it, remove excess distractions and start living simply. Cultivate friendships and study philosophy. Train your body and mind. You'll get there. I'm still working on it, but I'm much happier in life now.
Feel free to take bits from stoicism too, it helps when dealing with hardships in a rational way.

>>2268033
Differant anon, would love to do all that if it wasn't for a deeply ingrained fear of hell, seriously I can't get to deep into a book without the thought creaping around In my head that it's actually satanic illuminati NWO propaganda or some nonsencial shit like that.

>>2267996
The void overcomes itself in the recognition of itself as void

>>2268033
I'm not unhappy. It's fairly easy to induce happiness when you understand what it's point is and how it is made.

I just wanted to see if anyone had solved the problem yet.

>>2268033
>remove excess distractions

Going for a minor digression from the topic here, but I believe that this task alone is the most daunting nowadays, when we consider how conscious and aware an average individual has become. with the rapid progress of information technology. I think that happiness itself is in great part found in relation to the width of one's perspective, or rather - its lack thereof.

With our perspectives enormously widened, we constantly arouse our ambitions with sights of new hills to be climbed and new valleys to be conquered.

And once we come upon a realization of how overextended our ambitions and desires are, we face nothing short of disappointment and more suffering.

>>2268042
http://www.epicurus.net/en/vatican.html
I understand, I get that from time to time as well.

>>2268042
I've found it takes a long time to accept some ideas, but as long as they are irrefutable you will eventually come to grips with them.

The lack of heaven, hell, or an afterlife of any kind is a terrifying idea. It takes a while for it to sink in.

why do you people always have to throw Nietzsche into this shit.

>>2268045
This is just silly nonsense attempting to sound profound to me.

Voids don't overcome, nor recognize.

>>2268068
You are it.

>>2268065
Because without god what is there?

>>2268074
Jesus. so you do it because of that passage shut up, please.

>>2268065
>why do people throw an author who spoke endlessly about overcoming nihilism into a thread about overcoming nihilism?

That's some fucking mystery.

>>2268077
When god died he took jesus with him anon, along with all deities of all stripes. Their gone, can't help us.

It's not god is dead but don't worry because we still have Jesus and Thor.

>>2268089
He didn't mean that God the theological entity had died. He meant that religion as the source of a grand society-spanning narrative had ceased.

>>2268104
Yes I know, but the above anon seems to think the opposite and that Jesus was somehow still a viable solution to the question of existence.

>>2268116
He's just as viable as any other solution

>>2268061
The weird thing is I've never really been a Christian, but for some reason one encounter I had with a Protestant evangelist really fucked me up and had turned me into a paranoid wreck for a while now. I'm just hoping I can out logic the irrational fear as I get older.

>>2267719
If you still get out of bed in the morning then nihilism is false.

>>2268136
>Being a slave to the Will to Live is an inherent debunk of the meaningless nature of existence

1/10

>>2268157
Do you not exist subjectively?

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I'm actually moving away from nihilism and on to more of a determinism, specifically reading about Stoicism.

Nihilism is like wiping the slate clean. Yeah, we get it, nothing has any intrinsic meaning or value, but it's no way to live life.

We need to give it meaning. Otherwise, you end up spending you life just saying "none of this matters anyway."

The problem is is that we have brains that can think about the implication what it means to be alive. Species exist to procreate and ensure survival and that's all we're doing. Civilisation, culture, religion, technology, McDonald's; all that is just inbetween. Man is at the same time a product and a producer.
Maybe there is a higher meaning, maybe there is not. The objective fact is that there are now more than 7 billion people on earth so it will take a while before we've all died out. (especially with technology that can help us spread through the galaxy)

>>2268173
>We need to give it meaning.

You are applying a futile therapy to a sickness whose deadly outcome is already predetermined.

Ultimately, what you seek is not the truth nor an answer, but a relief from your pain. A voluntary delusion on your part to console your being of its inevitable, grim end.

>>2268050
Exactly. That's why it's so crucial. I actually cut internet from my house. I have a smartphone and a cheap data plan, but that's it. It's amazing how much free time that gives you. After the month or so withdrawal period, I learned to bake, paint, fix up my bike and other things around the house, had time to read, etc. Getting rid of distractions is a real hell of a thing, but it does work wonders to simplify your life and bring an element of quiet and slowness back into it.
Your results may vary, of course.

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>>2268173
>>2268173

Are you me? I recently read about Stoicism, and I realized a lot from the idea behind discipline of perception

I'm glad this thread is up, because I wonder if I've realized something that may aid other people in the thread:

1. That the meaning of life's existence is actually ambiguous, because assuming the lack of meaning is a logical fallacy, of Argument from Ignorance, in other words, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; it is wholly possible for it to exist, simply not be understood. regardless, the next point is more useful

2. Life is meaningless, but we must learn to deal with the feeling; if you have chosen to know things for what they are (i.e. to value knowledge) you must differentiate between the feelings things give you and the actual matter of fact. In other words, when you think life is meaningless, the feeling you have is desperate from the idea, and understanding your moment of hypolepsis can lead you to realize it's perhaps not more than a feeling.

Where to go after this? I think that at this point, what you decide to do is ultimately what you choose to do; you're going to have to make a choice in a non-tautological belief, and then derive values that logically follow, to the best of your ability (at some point, you may need to include strong inductive statements)

Please attack me, I feel like this is too good to be true. Should I still be reeling in despair? Or is the fact separate from the feeling (i.e. taking care of anxiety/depression as a result)

Great apologies if this has been mentioned/attacked in the thread, haven't looked through all the posts yet

>>2268230
Is anything wrong with that? If you're going to embrace nihilism what is even the point of living?

>>2268173
You're not disproving it, you are just pretending it does not exist.

Which is very useful from a practical perspective, you carry on with your life and adopt a philosophy that allows you to be happy. But it does not put the problem to rest, it just stuffs it under a bed and tries to forget about it while calling that discipline.

>>2268249
Allow me to clarify by saying that I am not making a distinction between "wrong" or "right", to start with.

If anything, I am empathetic to your ways, because when the mind attains enough complexity to "embrace" nihilism, there are but two rational pathways that present themselves:
1. Philosophical suicide
2. Minimization of suffering through varying means

My issue lies with this part of your statement right here:

"We need to give it meaning. Otherwise, you end up spending you life just saying "none of this matters anyway."

If one's mechanism of coping is simply affirming the fact, why do you consider it inherently flawed or inferior to crafting one's own set of meaning? Down the long run, it all boils down to the same thing anyway.

>>2268256
Shoo shoo preacher of the void

>>2268247
Ok I'll bite

1. Why do you say the meaning of life is ambiguous and then go on to say that it has no meaning? By definition, in order for something to exist it must be knowable, if not by man then at least by some higher power. I must also emphasize that even if something must be knowable that doesn't mean it must be known.

2. Just because life has no *inherent* meaning does not mean that life is meaningless. There is reason to exist and even reason to believe it is better to exist than not exist. One way I've heard it worded is "the meaning of life is to live."

>Where do we go after this?

You see, I take a more "optimistic" approach to nihilism. If you convince yourself that existence is inherently better than non-existence then from that point foward you have found your meaning. From there you can start searching for a more personal goal which we call "purpose." After that comes self improvement, then self actualization, and then fulfillment. It's a lot harder than it sounds though. I am personally still on the self improvement phase of life.

>>2267719
>nihilism is truth isn't it.
lol trapping yourself for no reason
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FPgcg5TBSA&t=26s

>>2268360
>If you convince yourself that existence is inherently better than non-existence then from that point foward you have found your meaning.

Here, you resort to a futile mechanism of coping with the fact, which is a dead-end in itself. The question put forth by a rational mind should rather be, I believe : "If return to non-existence via death is an inevitable fate, what value or purpose is there in existing to begin with?"

>>2267768
Look into Joseph Goldstein's Darhma talks. He is an American Buddhist monk. The joy that man feels was enough for me do look deeply into his work and philosophy. Before encountering his work I had to have a unified philosophy before I could be happy, but the everything kept leading back to nihilism. Now, I no longer believe that is the case.

>>2268379
But existence IS better than non-existence, I truly believe this to be true. A true nihilist would reject this, which is why I'm technically not one. It's also REALLY hard to make an argument for the inherent goodness of reality and existence to someone who does not believe in God, which the vast majority of nihilists don't. I can make attempt but have never tried.

>>2268360

1. I continue to the second point to say more like, "even if life happens to be meaningless"; say some omniscient higher power declares life to be meaningless, then 2 would be the next point. I am confused by your second point, you seem to be confirming what I say; it is possible to attribute the property of existence, and it does not necessarily need to be known to exist?

2. This is more of a semantic thing I suppose, personally I feel that a better word is suited for what we mean when we say meaning of life. I see you distinguish by saying "inherent meaning", which I agree with. I think anything afterwards is a choice; I would see as whichever reason you have found your existence to be better than non-existence as your non-tautological belief, which you derive your other ideas from, leading you to purpose and so on. Am I off?

>>2268299
lol

I am a slave to my reason. I really do hope someone has some idea which will trump Nihilism, that's why I posted this thread.

That hope is foolish, but without it I have nothing.

>>2268393
>But existence IS better than non-existence,

I don't understand how you believe this give that >>2268379 seems to be correct.

Existence is suffering, why endure it for nothing?

>>2268408
>I really do hope someone has some idea which will trump Nihilism, that's why I posted this thread.

All things considered, I'd say there is great wisdom to be found in "Amor fati" principle. You do not need an idea but rather - a stance to take. In the endless, eternal void of time and space even suffering itself is but a temporary nuisance, thus the concept of suicide and living on face equal amount of absurdity once you weight the scales.

Living in pure spite of the absurd, welcoming and accepting both joy and dismay, suffering and delight in equal measure as mere cosmic trivialities like they are - this I think is the key to fulfilled existence. Life indeed is struggle, so might as well consider it a meaning in itself.

And who knows ; perhaps an answer that transcends our worldly wits awaits at the end of the dark tunnel that is our existence. Hope can be a tease like that.

>>2268456

I agree and would like to add on to the idea of "Amor fati", perhaps in a way that may appeal to >>2268408 anon; consider that ultimately, this may be something you will need to accept, and distressing over inevitable things is irrational if you consider accepting constants/inevitability as a tautology. I am curious, do you see a line where you can divide your feelings from the fact?

>>2268286

That wasn't me who you responded to, but I'm the one who originally said "to give it meaning".

I'm not simply filling in the gaps or pretending nihilism has no merit, but that I'm making something of it. My actions might not have intrinsic value, but I'm going to do the best with my life in a way that feels fulfilling. That requires more than an absence of care for the universe and everything in it.

>>2268401
1. I sort of agreed with you, yes. Something can exist without being known. But in order for something to exist, it must be *knowable.* By definition things which do not exist cannot be known, therefore things which do exist must be knowable. What I am getting at is that if the meaning of life exists, than I believe it can be known, even if we do not know it yet.

2. Yes but I also believe that existence is inherently better than non-existence when discussing universals. Thus the meanig of life is that it is good for us to exist, and nothing more. I also believe you can find "deeper meaning" by searchig for a purpose.

>>2268408
What >>2268379 is FALSE in my opinion.

I think it is pretty difficult to prove inherent goodness of existence without God, but a lot of nihilists are atheists so I will try but in a different post.

Life has no intrinsic value or meaning. Human existence is a tiny blip in the history of the universe that will likely disappear and be forgotten. Morality is a spook and merely reflects the conditions of the society in which it emerges etc.

Not really something to be all that upset over.

>>2268522

1. Well, your deduction seems correct to me, so I think we agree here.

2. Why do you hold that existence is inherently better than non-existence?

>>2268456
Treating pain as a triviality is not a trick I know. Pain has a way of overriding what I think it should be.

I agree with Peterson's description of pain as the most real thing there is. It cuts through all ideas, all questions, and exists if you want it to or not.

>>2268522
>a lot of nihilists are atheists

It would make no sense to be an nihilist if you were a theist. Religion provides the greater purpose which the lack of leads to nihilism.

I agree with point 1 but believe it is likely the Darwinian struggle, not some divine reason. It's not a pretty answer but as far as I can tell it is the correct one.

How did you come to the belief that existing is better than not existing? Outside of existing allows you to procreate.

>>2267719
Nihilism usually just sprouts off of depression.

>>2268379
>>2268522
>>2268551
>>2268666
Again this is super hard to prove if you assume God doesn't exist but I gave it my best shot:

1. To live is to know suffering (premise)

2. Suffering is not good (premise, definition)

3. If we know what suffering is, we must also know what it is not (argument from opposites) (if you don't know what this is it essentially states that things cannot be known without also knowing their opposite or privation i.e. hot cannot be known without cold)

4. The opposite of suffering is "not suffering," which is good. I will call it "happiness" (2,3)

5. We must know what happiness is (3,4)

6. In order for us to know what happiness is, it must exist (argument by definition. As I stated earlier, things which do not exist cannot be known, therefore things which exist must at least be knowable)

7. If there is an inherent suffering to life then there must be an inherent happiness to life as well (1,3,6)

8. The only reason we suffer is because we also have the capacity to be "happy" or not suffer (7)

9. Therefore, there is an inherent goodness to life because there is an inherent capacity to be happy, which is good. (8)

10. Non-living or "non-existence" has no inherent goodness nor badness becuse it is nothing, and "nothing" cannot have properties such as good or bad, thus there is no suffering nor happiness (definition of "nothing") (9, conclusion)

11. Living (existence) is better than non-living (non-existence) because living has an inherent goodness to it which non-existence does not. (10, Final conclusion)

Comment got too long, I am going to post a few notes in a second comment though

>>2268818
Notes on proof:
- a possible counter argument to this is to reject the premise that suffering is bad, it is important to make the distinction that suffering itself actually isn't *bad* per say, but it is caused by things which are bad. Thus I make a very slight equivocation when I say "suffering is bad" just to make the proof more understandable.

-suffering is a privation of happiness, meaning by a very technical definition it does not even exist since it is a lack of something. Thus you cannot disprove this by saying "life has an inherent badness because there is suffering and thus it is worse than non-existence" because suffering only ""exists"" necessarily as the privation of goodness, and really, non-existence is the privation of *all* things which makes it even worse.

>>2268818
The problem I see with this is the answer is to live like a hedonist. To live for pleasure because there is no higher purpose to being.

I find that an unacceptable mode of living. To live for simple pleasure seems as pointless as to live in spite of the absurd as my experiences will die with me and pass into nothingness.

I appreciate the effort, you are valiantly struggling against the overwhelming beast which wants to consume us all. I don't think it can be defeated without God. Or perhaps we should accept the grim reality and spawn as many children as possible. It would likely bring great satisfaction in our old age.

>>2267763
Friedrich.... Against nihilism.... pls get of this board

>>2268915
I specifically used the word "happiness" and avoided pleasure becuase I believe there is more to happiness than physical pleasure.

But you may still be right in one way which is that without God, where does happiness come from other than pleasure? Abrahamic Religions cite God as the "ultimate good" and say that being good brings happiness because you are "being like God." But if you remove God from the equation (or think that God is evil), then there is no reason doing good should make you feel happy unless it was beneficial to you in some way. It's a difficult question I will admit. I still think that even without God one could argue not all "happiness" is derived from pleasure, but I am not sure where you would derive it from. Maybe from the soul (if you believe that exists)? And still I would think that existence is better than non-existence, even if all happiness is derived from pleasure, that is still an inherent good which does not exist after death.

>>2268944

...is this bait?

>>2267996

>I want the answer to why. I know I can live without it, but how should I live?

Most of the philosophies arising from acceptance of the basic premise of nihilism reach a similar conclusion - You are the only person who can tell you how to live. Absurdism is the philosophy I personally find to be the best response to a nihilistic universe but ultimately the realization that there are no guidelines on how to live other than those you define for yourself can be a liberating one.

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>nihilism is truth isn't it.

There's one final truth you've yet to learn.

nihilism is self-defeating
once you actually think about the fundamental system of values that led you to conclude that nothing matters, etc... you will realize those values are as arbitrary as anything else, so your conclusion is as baseless as its implications

>>2270698
The very realization that all values are all equally arbitrary and abstract is the fundamental core of nihilistic perception, thus the conclusion remains a valid one. You truly didn't push a single point forth with your argument.

nihilism is a gay

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>noun: nihilism
>the rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.

In order for "meaningless" to mean something, "meaning" must also mean something. To state that something is "meaningless" depends on the existence of "meaning" or the property of having "meaning". I could just make up a new word - say, "tambag" - and go around saying things are "tambagless". It would be a nonsense statement unless there was some meaning to the word "tambag" or some example of something which is "tambag".

Nihilism is self contradictory because to say life is "meaningless" implies the existence of "meaning", which they reject.

>>2271971
Quit playing the semantics game, it is only presenting you in a dumber light.

In relation to "meaning" itself, the "doctrine" (if it could be referred to as such), of Nihilism, takes the so-called "objective" meaning into consideration, a meaning passed down by the authority higher than the human society and species as a whole.

"Meaning" itself as a concept can be also easily defined along the subjective lines and on a subjective basis, so your argument is totally absurd and incoherent.

>because to say life is "meaningless" implies the existence of "meaning"

This statement is also absolutely untrue and irrelevant when you consider the prior explanation.

if everying is meaningless then "everything is meaningless" is itself meaningless

if nothing matters then nothing matters doesn't matters

>>2272465
It's not the semantics game, Nihilism is absurd for this reason:
>>2272472


If "meaning" is defined subjectively then what does Nihilism have to say about it?

>>2272512
>If "meaning" is defined subjectively then what does Nihilism have to say about it?

Subjective meaning exists, but the very nature of its subjectivity rids it of any inherent value, from the perspective closest to that of an objective observer of the human species as whole.

>>2272472
If nothing matters then matter is nothing, and if it doesn't matter that nothing matters that's a double negative. Meaning it matters.

>>2272525
Ok so it's about "inherent value". So Nihilism says that nothing has "inherent value" but if I ask what "inherent value" actually is, Nihilism has no answer because "inherent value" doesn't exist.

>>2272546
Quantity and rarity objectively exist and along with supply and demand create value.

>>2267828
>whether John Doe enjoyed his life doesn't matter to anything or anyone

It mattered to him. Why is that unimportant? I feel like when nihilism and solipsism go hand in hand, you can be at peace with meaninglessness. Subjectivity is by definition a unique experience, and while objectivity has more of a permanence to it doesn't necessarily mean that it matters more. Letting go of fear of death and desire for life makes it easier to be content with simply living, and leaves for room for establishing a personal purpose in life whenever one wishes, if at all.

>>2272550
Yes, in the real world. Are you the same guy? You don't seem to be supporting Nihilism.

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>>2268944
>>2269439

It HAS to be bait.

>>2272546
>>>2272525
>Ok so it's about "inherent value". So Nihilism says that nothing has "inherent value" but if I ask what "inherent value" actually is, Nihilism has no answer because "inherent value" doesn't exist.
Nihilism is not necessarily so radical and extreme in postulating the absence of inherent value. Consider it more of a leaning sentiment, that inherent value or objective meaning if you will (Whose specific nature eludes our scope of knowledge), is highly unlikely to exist.

This is not to say that the radical, absolute sentiment of completely denying its existence is invalid. Your statement truly did nothing to prove the stance as inherently invalid and irrational.

>>2272556
The same is true of the metaphysical, certain ideas have more value because they are more desirable, regardless of whether that subjective desire has any objective value.

>>2269017
>I still think that even without God one could argue not all "happiness" is derived from pleasure, but I am not sure where you would derive it from.
Making the world as you wish it to be

Expressing your Will/Ego

Self-actualizing

Question

How does a nihilist reconcile the objective directionality of evolutionary biology with their conviction that life is meaningless?

Is not the presence of direction evidence in and of itself evidence of meaning?

>>2272591
>the objective directionality of evolutionary biology
Towards what? More complex organisms?

They would probably say it's meaningless because such complexity cannot increase indefinitely. Eventually it will decay, as all things in the Universe do.

>>2272599
Yeah, the movement from simple to complex. Observation of this fact inherently provides purpose for all life, making existence functional, no?

>cannot increase indefinitely
>will eventually decay
I don't understand how this makes life meaningless.

>>2272591
>Is not the presence of direction in and of itself evidence of meaning?
Fixed

>>2267719
Life disputes nihilism. You believe in things regardless.

>>2267768
You're ignoring that ideas are real in some sense. You've taken one side of reality (physicality) and said that's everything and then observed that the world left is one without concepts etc.
But you're thinking in concepts right now. You live in a society of concepts. You feel emotionally affected by nihilism. You have feelings. These all exist.

>>2267719
Jesus Christ OP you are truly a faggot beyond belief. Take the cock out of your mouth and listen for a minute. You said, "I was looking for meaning in life and I finally realized that there is none." This statement is technically correct, but if I were a faggot fuckin douchebag who only can give head like yourself, I'd be depressed too. However, no meaning to life actually means that you have ultimate freedom. The meaning of life is like water, and you decide which vessel it goes into. When you figure out what your vessel is and actually pursue it, you will be on cloud 9 all the time.

>>2267951
At least most other philosophic schools aren't that fucking arrogant.

>>2272631
The concepts and ideas are merely the byproduct of our physical being. Emotions directly spawned from initial confrontation with the doctrines of Nihilism is merely a basic psychological conflict that results from having a desire to live, but realizing that death is inevitable. It is with concepts and ideas, cultural values, symbolic systems and those of value, that we devise a mechanism of coping with the initial fact.

>>2272649
If only you devoted at least half of your effort behind spouting profanity to actual intellectual discussion..

>>2272706
How do you know that being exists apart from ideas? Is perception anything but signals sent from the body to the mind, and directions from the mind to the body? Does your mind create your environment or does your environment create your mind, chicken or egg? I think therefor I am, I am there for I think.

>>2272706
>merely products of
Yeah, but it still exists. You're in it.
I think of God as a way of organising a person. God is the whole world as we percieve it speaking to us.

>>2272649
This is 4chan, not Reddit. The "drill sergeant" tone does not go very far here.

>>2272744
As to why, probably because we're not looking to be told something, regardless of how true, in order to feel ok. We actually want to know.

>>2272741
That includes the world of the transcendent - what we don't fully understand - that comes to us via ideas.

>>2272612
>Observation of this fact inherently provides purpose for all life, making existence functional, no?

The fundamental basis of nihilism is it makes no difference what you do, you, and everything you do, along with everything anyone ever does will return to nothingness in the end.

There is no salvation, no afterlife, no gods. There is brief pointless existence in which you engage in the Darwinian struggle, and and the end nothing.

>>2272736
I do not see where this line of questioning is going, but I'll entertain it regardless.

>How do you know that being exists apart from ideas?

I've never claimed a position on this question. To begin with, what is it that you define as an idea? If we go by the conventional definition of a mental representation of something, then it is purely a product of our consciousness, put forth by the 1400 gram worth of cellular mass in our heads.

> Is perception anything but signals sent from the body to the mind, and directions from the mind to the body

Perception is a form of comprehensive experience or a picture if you will, put together by our senses and the manner in which they interact with the world surrounding us.

>Does your mind create your environment or does your environment create your mind, chicken or egg?

Ultimately, our mind creates a subjective perspective of our environment, which is not to exclude the possibility/fact that environment has objective properties despite of observation.

>I think therefor I am, I am there for I think.
And this is meant to prove what exactly?

>>2272753
There is still emptyness in the crunching of gears as the world turns.

>>2268944
His entire lifework was devoted to how Jesus gives placebo medicine to deal with Nihilism and how we as a species are ready to embrace better and truer ways to deal with Nihilism. Freddy was indeed against nihilism you wee shite.

>>2272623
I hold an absurd hope to find a better answer to the question of life.

That is not proof of anything but that I am likely a fool.

>>2272763
Is pain an idea or a reaction, and is there a difference?

>>2272623
We are all slaves of our primal, evolutionary instincts to struggle on and survive, so your argument proves quite literally nothing.

If life were to dispute Nihilism, suicide would affirm it in turn.

>>2272753
Ahhh, so it presumes that transcendence is a complete impossibility.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Have to wait and see.

For all we know I'm just having this conversation with myself and am everything for all eternity.

>>2267719
You can be a nihilist and not buy into the le life is a futile struggle meme.

>>2267719
If you're actually a nihilist then you should kill yourself right now.
Because fuck it, it doesn't matter.

>>2272812
>>2272814
In the will to power nothing conquers your life like controlling your death.

>>2272792
It is first and foremost a biological reaction. I'd say however, that consciousness can manifest or rather - produce this identical reaction via an idea (mental representation of a certain concept), which ultimately can have an identical effect on an individual, in case of a severe mental trauma of sorts and the like.

>>2272826
Do memories create pain or does pain create memories?

>>2272814
Why? If death and existence are equally meaningless, then so is the very act of suicide. They all remain equally absurd, but the scales are still tipping towards living and struggling on, because our evolutionary instincts tie us down and deny rationality.

>>2272800
Yes, but you still have values. You still believe things. There is no escape from this dream.

>>2267719
>nihilism is truth isn't it.
is that a question?
Nihilism isn't a proposition, its a state of being.
Read Allan Bloom on Nietzsche.
Better yet, read Nietzsche on Nietzsche.
>>2267979
Actually, all religions evolved out of tribal monotheism, Christianity very much is the only religion, everything else is just deviation from the divine aspect of the highest upward.
>>2267756
not so fast, nu-cuck.
Read Carl Jung.

>>2272835
It is a vicious circle, but the starting point must originate in some sort of external stimuli, caused by environment interacting with our senses to trigger an initial reaction of pain. From then on, a memory is formed and the circle finds its starting point.

>>2272808
>transcendence

Define?

If you are using it to refer to a transcendence into heaven, no. The idea that god exists is absurd from any logical point of view.

>>2267849
Truth

>>2272859
What about the pain of guilt?

>>2272841
Belief is nothing short of coping mechanism a being, as I've noted formerly. You still fail to prove a point of any sorts.

>>2272854
>is that a question?
Yes
>Nihilism isn't a proposition, its a state of being.
No

I do appreciate you listing off famous authors instead of bothering to form any kind of argument.

Thanks for dropping by.

>>2272879
it is also a reaction in its own. A reaction to some instance of our interacting with the environment that naturally must precede it.

>>2272901
It's a reaction to a perception, a mist in the mind.

>>2272922
You are actually right, I've poorly formulated my prior reply.

>>2272932
You
reply.

>>2272940
So, which conclusion are we heading towards then? If we've established that pain is drawn from our perception, or rather, the receiving part of the interaction between our perception and the environment, how does it tie to the initial premise and your line of questioning?

>>2272960
I was just curious as to where you divide the mind from the body.

Nihilism went through three stages for me.
Denial
Fear
Acceptance

I used to fear nihilism, I used to fear oblivion, but it doesn't really bother me so much anymore. There's a bit of comfort to me in that my existence is ultimately futile. That all existence is futile.

All these senseless suffering, the horrors inflicted upon our species. It ultimately just doesn't matter, and I've found peace in that.
It doesn't make me embrace suffering or want any more of it to occur, rather, the fact it's all pointless just makes me want to enjoy life even more. To have life be enjoyed by everyone even more.
So many people have fought and died for ideas, killed for ideas, tortured for ideas. Done all this in the name of what is ultimately oblivion. It always goes back to oblivion. Happiness, sadness, melancholy. We are fleeting creatures that will never know, never truly understand.

And I'm okay with that. Hearing something like this would have bothered me greatly a year ago but now it's almost comforting. I almost can't explain it, can't explain why I feel such peace for accepting this, but I most certainly do.
You live and you die, why fight the unfightable?

>>2268522
Why does something have to be knowable to exist? That certainly isn't true by human standards at least. Are you meaning to say that if something is not knowable by humans, then it essentially doesn't exist because it doesn't affect us?