>a rat-like creature can eventually evolve into a horse >but

Easy way to explain away why sub-Saharan Africans were and still are such failures.

These are tamed animals, not domesticated and that's an enormous difference.

>>2259744
yes, but the idea that it is physically impossible to domesticate zebras sounds almost like creationism

>>2259725
>what is timescale ?

>>2259751

if you don't understand evolution and the differences between animals and their inheritable traits I guess it would be a little hard for someone to understand, indeed.

>>2259758
so an ainmal can turn limbs into wings, but behaviour changes are inheritly impossible?

>>2259725
>a rat-like creature can eventually evolve into a horse
Does this mean we'll be riding jews at some point?

>>2259725
>this absurd comparison
Why do anons give OP so much credit?

>>2259767

Nope. But you're forgetting that the horse and the zebra lived in two different locations. Horses were domesticated in the Eurasian area and could easily adapt to new environments and diets. They showed a placidity towards humans due to the fact that they faced no predators in their habitats.

The zebra however is not from Eurasia, it can not adapt to new diets (as it has had the same died for thousands of years), it has an instinctive self defense mentality and are known to bite, kick and have a "ducking reflex" which is due to the predators it faces. The last point made it particularly hard for Dutch Boers to try and tame them.

Animals with domesticated traits are very easy to selectively breed and make the even more domesticated. The zebra is an animal you cannot domesticate. I mean we breed gorillas, tigers and lions in zoos and we still consider them tame but wild animals. Though we have them chained up, given the chance they will strike at you.

>>2259743
This.

Here's another fun fact. Africanized bees are essentially just primitive bees nobody bothered to work with to breed the aggression down in.

They live like animals, hand to mouth with no concept of the future. Instead they just starve when the food runs out like every beast.

Of course there are better explanations for the great divergence but people cling to guns germs and steel because they don't like racism and have feelings for it.

>>2259778
>They showed a placidity towards humans due to the fact that they faced no predators in their habitats

You are saying nature devised a creature which was not an apex predator which had no predators?

I'm going to need a source on that.

>and are known to bite, kick and have a "ducking reflex" which is due to the predators it faces

Replacing ducking with bucking and you have every bloody horse in existence.

>>2259781
Africanized bees are a hybrid made in a lab. African honey bees not only produces less honey but are more aggressive to work with not saying it's impossible to work with the original bee but not sure if it is worth the hassle for hunter gatherers

>>2259804
>Africanized bees are a hybrid made in a lab.

No. It's just a term for a hybrid of European and African bees which breed freely. I should have simply said African bees.

>African honey bees not only produces less honey but are more aggressive to work with not saying it's impossible to work with the original bee but not sure if it is worth the hassle for hunter gatherers

Yes, because there were no people who bothered to work them for a few thousand years to come to a more placid and productive bee. Modern European honey bees are the end result of generations of work which still carries on today.

>>2259778
>They showed a placidity towards humans due to the fact that they faced no predators in their habitats.
maybe because humans hunted those large predators to extinction?

>as it has had the same died for thousands of years
so if an animal eats the same food for thousands of years, it suddenly loses the ability to evolve into eating different diet?

>it has an instinctive self defense mentality and are known to bite
its not like instincts are a subject to evolutionary chage

> mean we breed gorillas, tigers and lions in zoos and we still consider them tame but wild animals.
But we dont domesticate them

Here an example of domesticating an animal in modern days
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox

>>2259821
>bred freely
In a lab
>Yes, because there were no people who bothered to work them for a few thousand years to come to a more placid and productive bee. Modern European honey bees are the end result of generations of work which still carries on today.
I don't know about the temperment of ancient European honey bees so I won't make any arguments bases on that, but why would africans even try to work with these bees when they could just hunt?

>>2259725
>evolve horse like behaviour

HURR

>>2259789
>You are saying nature devised a creature which was not an apex predator which had no predators?

Have you never heard of the dodo? Moron

>>2259864
>In a lab

In a bee yard with very poor precautions taken to prevent queens escaping. That is beside the point, they interbreed freely, outdoors, if they happen to be in each others vicinity.

>why would africans even try to work with these bees when they could just hunt?

For the same reason you domesticate animals instead of just eating them.

>>2259877
>Have you never heard of the dodo? Moron

They were the apex predator on their tiny island.

>>2259767
What the fuck does one have to do with the other? Also do you even realizd how long physical evolution took? Behavioural evolution is possible but it takes a long ass time.
Not to mention zebras evolved with human evolution while horses were introduced to humans as we are right now.

>>2259886
>They were the apex predator on their tiny island.

The apex predator of seeds and fruit?

>>2259887
>Behavioural evolution is possible but it takes a long ass time.
no it doesnt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox

>>2259880
People domesticate animals for labor, and to eat if times get rough, why bother if you don't need to lift heavy things or plow any fields, and you can go out with a couple of your buddies and kill a gazelle.

>>2259886
Lol thanks for the funny mental picture.

>>2259767
>behaviour changes are inheritly impossible?

Over how many generations?

>>2259900
>modern domestication takes as long as It did for early man

>>2259899
And maybe of lizards and shellfish.

Not much on that tiny island.

>>2259900
>specifically scientific calculated behavioural evolution took less time
No shit Sherlock. Humans never specifically bred for domestication until animals were tamed enough. Foxes are particularly used to humans. Your case just proves behavioural evolution is easier to manipulate than physical evolution on an animal that's pretty used to humans already.

>>2259909
Other birds, bats and seals.

>>2259903
>>2259906
>moving the goal post
your original statment was that "Behavioural evolution is possible but it takes a long ass time", which is proven to be wrong

>>2259901
What happens when you can't catch a gazelle?

>>2259918
If you a scientist, sure. If you're a primitive farmer, not so much. Exception makes the rule.

>>2259928
so instead of 50 years, it may thake them 500, or even 5000 years
but still, they didnt manage to domesticate zebra

>>2259934
Because zebras witnessed humans evolving. Horses didn't.
It's the same reason African lions still exist while Eurasian lions are (mostly) extinct, really. These animals are more than used to humans as another animal instead of a different invasor. They developed the behavioural tools to avoid humans, while in Eurasia animals didn't. It comes back with Eurasian megafauna extinction vs African megafauna extinction.
A better example for how behavioural domestication can or can't happen quickly would be the rat, a weird animal that's sort of domesticated and sort of isn't.

>>2259968
>Because zebras witnessed humans evolving. Horses didn't.

They would have evolved with Neanderthals or some other variant of homo erectus.

>>2260011
Neanderthals didn't have nearly the same numbers as humans even as hunter gatherers.
One of the reasons why humans replaced them

>>2260011
Neanderthals are a weird exception and still a puzzle to most scientists in this area. They seemed to be extremely fit for their environment, so much that they became extinct around the same time as the rest of the megafauna, but only in some places and not others. It is still an open topic for debate.
But yes you're point is valid, which is why some Asian megafauna, like rhinos and tapirs and tigers and leopards, never went extinct and evolved the same behavioural skills to avoid humans.

>>2259744
the Russians managed to domesticate foxes within 40 generations

>>2259751
>being a lamarckian
>1859+158

>>2260014
True, but it is doubtless they would have been hunted by humanoids for a very large period of their evolutionary history.

>>2260020
You are assuming they went extinct because they had no behavioral skills to avoid humans. While it is very possible humans hunted most mega fauna to extinction (including horses on the American continent) it's still an unproven theory. We really don't know what happened there.

I would also argue that the reason Tigers and leopards still exist in Asia has more to do with the difficulty of the terrain there compared to in Europe. It's much more difficult to hunt an animals to extinction in a large jungle compared to a similarly sized forest.

>>2260031
They didn't.

>I don't understand how evolution works - the thread.

God, hw did you people make it this far in life.

>evolution
Not even once

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51KB, 400x323px

>>2260050
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox

>>2260053
It doesn't.

>>2260055
>Following the demise of the Soviet Union, the project has run into serious financial problems. In 1996, there were 700 domesticated foxes, but, in 1998, without enough funds for food and salaries, the number had to be reduced to 100.[citation needed]
>As of August 2016, there are 270 tame vixens and 70 tame males on the farm.[8]
Also are you retarded? Unsourced wikipedia article is not the gospel.

>>2259778
>They showed a placidity towards humans due to the fact that they faced no predators in their habitats.
>Wolves
>Bears
>mountain lions.

>>2260070
>Also are you retarded? Unsourced wikipedia article is not the gospel.

...there is also a bunch of youtube videos of people playing with the offspring from this breeding project. They started selling them to fund the thing.

>>2260055

>Comparing our knowledge of domestication with people that probably thought the world was flat.
>Being this stupid.

>>2260079
Which doesn't prove that the foxes are domesticated, not in the least. Do you even understand the difference between domesticated and tame?

>>2260092
>>2260081

Little early for trolling /his/ isn't it?

>>2260047
Most evidence seems to point to humans, or a mix of humans and other factors, as the main cause.
Most fossils of animals found in America, for example, in the period coinciding with a bit later than when we think humans got there, usually present evidence of human hunt. Like cuts and shards.
Therefore, it's the main theory and the one I wrote about in my post as assuming to be truth.
But you are right, many possibilities still exist. For instance when trying to explain how a lot of megafauna still exists in south america that isn't jungle, like guanacos.

>>2260099

Its 1ts 17:11 right now around here.

The US is not the only country in the world, you know?

>>2260074
Mountain lions don't exist in Europe.

>>2260118
They had actual lions.

>>2260137
Well yeah.
America had it's own lions (besides cougars, which are more related to cats than lions) anyway.

>>2260109
It's a weak explanation with a great deal of holes. Why were horses wiped out in north America but not larger animals? Buffalo, Elk, Moose, all similar and all thrived.

On that note you can also tame moose, but they don't live as long as horses and in general are inferior unless you are planning a Russian prison break.

>>2260114
Jesus that's a hurting time zone.

>horse
>bigger and stronger than a zebra
>was able to be domesticated
>zebra
>can't be domesticated for some unexplainable reason

Smells like bullshit

>>2260169
All of those animals' genetics seem to indicate genetic bottlenecks not long ago.
Also elk and buffalo also exist in Eurasia and could've been reintroduced in America via there. Similar to how saigas still exist in Asia. We don't know because buffalo in Eurasia is almost extinct and not as related to American buffalo as expected, which can be a sign of genetic drift.
We don't really know the full answer.

>>2260186
Wild horses are smaller than zebra. Humans bred them large.

>>2260196
>humanity was able to create dogs from wolves
>wolves
>the thing that terrified humans throughout history
>can't domesticate fucking zebras

nah fuck off. 100% bullshit

>>2260196
The ancestors of modern cattle were huge.

>>2260196

Even during the Crusades knights had to pay ridiculous prices to ship horses to the Holy Land. Mounted knights and their tactics required the significantly larger grain-fed horses of Europe, compared to the grass-fed ponies of the East.

>>2260203
But wolves domesticated themselves.
Humans didn't completely domesticate wolves, wolves met humanity half way and actively cooperated.

>>2260099
Just admit that you don't understand the basic terms to engage in this discussion and stick to lurking.

>>2260213
Yes. And some primitive cattle still is large af.

>>2260225
Arabs mainly were the ones breeding horses huge, actually.

>>2260228
It is believed wolf behaviour influenced human behaviour. So they kinda domesticated us as well.

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23KB, 792x588px

>>2259725
>horse like behaviour

>>2260255
God knows what you imagine them to mean but by any definition I can find those foxes are domesticated as their affinity for humans passes onto most of their offspring.

>>2260369
Nope, those were the Persians (Nyssian horses) arabs had the, well the arab, not quite big but fast and resistent, and adapted to hot climate. Europe got his big horse fever for they contact with the persians kingdoms and adopted the Cataphract style cavalry.

>>2260454
Oh. I didn't know that. Guess my teacher was wrong.

>>2260389
Yeah, Zebras are more like Donkeys.

>>2260460
Actually you're right.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055950
Zebra and caballus (the horse) are in opposite sites in this chart.

>>2260459
Sorry, Nisean horse, not Nyssian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisean_horse for a quick read about them. Probably your teacher equaled the Persian to Arabs, are you american?

>>2260031
>Domesticating foxes
Why do you could steal the Kulack's food

>>2260495
No I'm Spanish. I'm a vet. A teacher told this as a curiosity during an insemination class. Yes we have those. I guess he was talking about how Arabs introduced big horses in this region of Europe and probably got things wrong. Not his main specialty anyway, but I thought he knew what he was talking about.

>>2259725

>takes rat like creature 70 million years to evolve into horse
>but now niggers must change their behaviour in under 100 years or they're subhuman