Can we have an honest discussion about the Crusades and their cause?

Keep in mind, the First Crusade was preached a little less than 2-- years after the old Churches of St. Peter's and St. Paul had been ransacked and desecrated and after the church had to essentially relocate itself deep into fortified castles. Also, would remind you that the final blow against Islamic ship pillaging and enslavement was delivered by the US navy during the Barbary wars. This was a 1,200 year phenomenon. And so, one might ask, "Why are their so very view blacks in the mideast if over 100 million of them were brought there?"

there' a 2 part answer to that. Firstly, approximately 90% of those who began to make the journey to Arabia for enslavement died along the way (see: the late Dr. Tony Martin). In addition, the male backs were to be used as Harem guards, which involvement the removal of their penis and testicles at a very young age.

Also notable? Whereas the West obtained the lies brought to the West from tribes that had already captured these people and they were already slaves, Muslims by all accounts, followed no such practices and simply preferred to cut out the middleman and capture free blacks and then enslavement.

And yes, the only time I've ever heard any sort of black anger of this muslim enslavement is in the original Italian cut of the film "Africa Addio," which depicts thousands of Muslims (including women and children) being lined upend forced to big their own graves before being shot.

And yet, had I not gone out and done my own research on such things, I would have an MA in Med & Jenn Studies while knowing absolutely nothing about the Islamic slave trade.

Crusaders were based because fugg da mudslims amirite xDD

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>>2228242
mudslimes were a real threat though

>>2228242
>Crusaders were based because fugg da mudslims amirite xDD
Translation: "I don't actually know anything about the Crusades or this period in history, and this guy does. So i'm going to give a smarts answer and hope he he just copy pasted what he wrote, because if he did not I'd be in deep shit and he''d run circles around me."

I honestly hoped there were some relatively smart people on here. I refuse to use leddit or anything of that sort since I refuse to sign up for something and try to get little "up votes."

But then here, you have the edge lord anitra types who don't know even the first fact, so try to deflect without having to vantage in genuine conversation since they don't know anything.

Can no one ease my pain?

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>>2228085
Currently just opened this today. Great read so far, doesnt just talk about charlemange but also talks of events dating back to roman empire.

Loving it so far highly suggest!

>>2228085
You *ended a relationship* over THE FUCKING CRUSADES?

That has to be a joke. Please tell me that's a joke. I refuse to believe that two people could be so fucking dense and ignorant.

>>2228450
>there were some relatively smart people on here

There aren't. /his/ quotemines Wikipedia and regurgitates opinions from fad or pop history authors selling sexy """theories""" to simple problems.

>>2228740
File is not loading for me anon. Maybe my fucked up connection here or maybe too big. Would be interested in the title. Usually, best books are in Italian and published at least 100 years ago, before PC culture began creeping in. When you realize what the Church lost and how many times they were sacked. Meanwhile, no European ever stepped foot on the Arabian Peninsula with a religious motive of any sort.

This is one subject that can work me into a rage. Our own fault as Europeans, pathological altruism. Even the muslim "refugees" now know how to play the game and what buttons to press. And we have a Jesuit cuckold for a people.

I'm just waiting for the first, truly great work of Catholic art/architecture to be destroyed. They came close in Paris with the bomb near Notre Dame.

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Does anybody have any experience with this channel 'real crusades history'

I've been using it as a source to learn about the crusade but sometimes it seems bias towards the latins. Still tho I'm learning it far different than what john green put in front of me.

>>2228790
It's not a joke. She was actually pretty too, dark hair and blue eyes and did not wear any sort of headscarf. Her father was some sort of an important person under Abbas.

the girl insisted that the Crusades were a great crime unto Muslims. So, I brought out a map, and I marked all the territories Muslims had attacked/seized-- Sicily (200_ years), Malta, Spain (almost 600 years), France (stopped by Martel), Vienna (stopped the last time by King Sobieski. She would not accept it.

I guess it's different if you grow up under Israeli occupation and need to show an Id card to get to Uni and have you bag searched as you line up and cross border. But she became vicious and it led to a huge fight. She was attractive, smart, and usually personable but this issue--probably a metaphor for other issues-- just ended the relationship.

>>2228839
Holy shit you both have absolutely no sense of perspective and neither of you deserve to have a relationship until you grow up.

>>2228085
>crusades
>turks
bruh, turks did barely exist...

>>2228854
That's a bit judgmental wouldn't you say? Especially for a girl who literally lives under an occupation? It's not a joke or some sort of lark either. A few years ago, there was a movie about that depicts the journey from the West Bank into the area where the University is.

You, apparently, are the classic cosmopolitan, rootless type who feels no connection or responsibility to your ancestors. I realized soon after, she needs to hold into the narrative of oppression since it colours her everyday experiences in Israel with her actual oppressors.

I can respect and sympathize with that, but it doesn't change the fact that my ancestors lived in contact fear of the moorish ships appearing on the horizon to take slaves. In a way, it was a good lesson in why "globalization' is a failed system and a lie.

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The Crusades were a completely pointless endeavour. Consider that despite holding the Holy Land for more than a century, the Crusaders left absolutely no mark on any of the territories they conquered: for one, Roman Catholicism never spread beyond the Crusading lords themselves, and the rest of the population remained Orthodox, Syriac, etc. Neither did they have any demographic or linguistic impact in the areas they ruled over. What a waste of time. Plus I don't have to get into the obvious: the Crusades ultimately weakened the E.R.E., which allowed the Ottoman Turks to waltz right into Eastern Europe and the Balkans. From the Venetian Crusade of 1122, all the way to the actual Sack of 1204, the Crusades were more succesful in destroying the only strong Christian state in the region than doing anything to contain the various Muslim factions.

>>2228890
this dood just wants and deus vult meme out of himself

>>2228871
you get the idea. Not going to go back and make every distinction between the Caliphate was in Iraq, then when it moved again, then the fall of Constantinople. etc.. "turks" works well enough. Or should write out "the Caliphate while it was centered in x...?" you say "muslims" and you immediately offend people with the #notallmuslims bullshit...

>>2228871
the entire reason the crusades got started was because the byzantines wanted help with the tukish invasions.
And i hate that it turned into a fiasco when the leaders turned greedy because the turks were a pain in the ass for many centuries to come, that slowed down development wherever they went.

>>2228893
>the Crusaders left absolutely no mark on any of the territories they conquered
A. go to Syria. their forts are still there
B. The crusades led to the formulation o the Knights templar and the Knights Hospitallar, aka "Knights of St. John." The same group that saved Malta during the Siege with about 500 men under the command of Grand Master Jean De Valette.
for proof that holding Malta saved European Christendom, I'd recommend the book "Empire of the sea: the Battle of Lepanto, the Siege of Malta, and the Struggle for the Center of the World."
"tips fedora"

>>2228890
>800 years ago, some people attacked some other people
>this means I need to literally break off REAL relationships over what other people think about this

You're literally holding a grudge about something that *didn't even happen to you.* Hell, it didn't happen to any of your living ancestors. It doesn't matter anymore.

>colours her everyday experiences in Israel with her actual oppressors.
If her dad was in the fucking Abbas govt, she needs to look closer to home to find the root cause.

>In a way, it was a good lesson in why "globalization' is a failed system and a lie.
We didn't even mention globalism, but way to shoehorn it in.

Back to /pol/. Or grow the fuck up.

>>2228890
>You, apparently, are the classic cosmopolitan, rootless type...

Holy shit, not even the poster you were replying to, but you are so full of yourself that it's cringeworthy, autist.

No wonder your girlfriend left you, condescending twat.

>it doesn't change the fact that my ancestors lived in contact fear of the moorish ships appearing on the horizon to take slaves

You do realize the Greek Byzantines lived in fear of the Crusaders showing up on their lands and pillaging the area and killing people because they were both disorganized and lacked logistics, right? I don't even understand what you're trying to say.

>>2228926
I AM the poster he was replying to, and to be fair, the gf sounds like a dipshit too. Breaking off relationships over what people think about something that happened centuries ago is the height of autism.

What part of your masters was a mistake?

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The Crusades began when Emperor Alexios Komnenos petitioned the Papacy for aid in his endeavour of recapturing parts of the Empire from various Muslim lords, particularly Anatolia and parts of Cilicia/the Levant. It is established that Alexios likely exaggerated certain details (such as "the oppression of Christians under Muslim rule", or the "destruction of holy sites") in order to secure military aid.

Pope Urban proceeded to stir up a religious frenzy based on these exaggerated reports, and so the Crusades began.

So no, you're wrong: the Crusades were not a response to Muslim 'aggression' or raids (which were a common activity at the time, and in no way exclusive to the Muslims); they were a response to a lofty goal which Pope Urban - through a combination of his own charisma and personality and the religiosity of their time - was able to make various European lords chase.

>>2229041
>Alexios likely exaggerated certain details (such as "the oppression of Christians under Muslim rule", or the "destruction of holy sites")
Fuck off you cunt. You don't get to peddle your revisionism by saying something was "likely exaggerated" because the historical record doesn't support your narrative.

>the Crusades were not a response to Muslim 'aggression' or raids (which were a common activity at the time, and in no way exclusive to the Muslims)
They demonstrably were as they literally started from that. The Christians of the time were neither ignorant nor indifferent to the history of Islamic conquest in the christian world and what it would mean for them if it further spread into Europe from the east.
And no, slave raids on coastal settlements were an exclusive province of Islamic pirates.

>>2229041
>which were a common activity at the time, and in no way exclusive to the Muslims
Technically that doesn't mean they weren't a threat.

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>>2229193
Actual historical record shows no particular "persecution" or "oppression" of Christians in Muslim territories during the time period being discussed.

At this point in time, Christians were enabled to continue worship with the Jiyza tax, which brought Muslim lords a very lucrative profit (hence why regions like Egypt remained largely Christian even centuries after the conquests - rulers didn't want the people to convert and end a good source of income). Christian pilgrims were allowed to visit the Holy Land and its sites, and they enjoyed legal protections.

It is very likely that Emperor Alexius did exaggerate the danger the Empire was in. See:

Mayer, Hans Eberhard (1988). The Crusades (Second ed.). Oxford University Press.
Mayer, Hans Eberhard (1988). The Crusades (Second ed.). Oxford University Press.

>And no, slave raids on coastal settlements were an exclusive province of Islamic pirates.

You're fucking stupid. Piracy and coastal raiding have been a widespread activities in all of human history. It's not at all exclusive to the Muslims, and we know sources from the Middle Ages can be heavily biased (ex: sources tell us Crete under the Muslims was a pirate kingdom, but actual archeological shows "...an ordered state with a regular monetary economy and extensive trade links... with evidence that Chandax was a cultural centre of some importance"). Just off the top of my head, I distinctly remember raiders from Rus sailing to the Black Sea and pillaging Byzantine possessions and the suburbs in Constantinople in the 10th century, as well as the famous Viking invasions, with all its raids of coastal settlements.

Just get the fuck out of here and back to /pol/, LARPer.

>>2228085
to divide the world at that time simply into christian and muslim does not do the situation justice. the crusaders were western latin christian who had a significant disconnect with the eastern christians that lived in 4 out of the 5 centers of early christian thought and learning both in culture and in faith.
the byzantine emperor asked for support, true, but what he got was a horde of fanatics that sought not to support their brothers in faith as much as to find glory for themselves. in the process they committed massacres all over the place, they even massacred european jews who had nothing to do with the whole affair at all.
in the short time that they were actually successful european nobles set up their own states in the holy land not really caring much about their orthodox brothers. shortly after though they were defeated, making the whole endeavour completely pointless

but most importantly, let us not forget that the crusades (specifically the 4th) were the reason why 4 of the 5 centers of early christian thought and learning are now majority muslim instead of only 3.

>>2229041
>>2229193

Neither of these narratives are true.

Alexios petitioned the Papacy, yes, but for the purpose of planning the march of a Latin army the emperor had already begun trying to recruit through a series of letters to prospective barons who might be tempted to take the pilgrim's road and join up for mercenary service with the empire. It's not that he exaggerated, but that later Crusaders and Western historians distorted the original call to be one against the Muslims of Syria, when the emperor had actually meant to aim this mercenary force against every single enemy of the Byzantines, from Serbs and Pechenegs in the Balkans to Turks and Armenians in Anatolia.

The religious frenzy that stirred up a great Latin host was not driven by any sense of revenge or safeguarding Eastern Christians, but were excited that all the news they were hearing about chaos in the East lined up with eschatology at the time about the coming end, and this was something that took over the Prince's Crusade only near the end of the long march sometime after Antioch was taken. Until then while many were clamoring to arrive in Jerusalem in time for the end of things, the barons were still in charge and looking to secure for themselves Anatolian and Syrian duchies as Byzantine vassals (with the exception of Bohemund, who aimed to create an independent state which would allow him to attack the ERE from both sides).

The First Crusade had very little to do with the initial Arab Conquests or the Moorish raids of the later 10th century, which by the time of the First Crusade had been greatly suppressed and played little role in the march east. The 11th century was almost entirely about Latin expansion in the Mediterranean, and the First Crusade was a new front that was exploited at the right time.

Also, slave raids on coastal settlements was a near universal activity, and in the 11th century Italian pirates were on the ascendancy in the Western Mediterranean.

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>>2229193
>And no, slave raids on coastal settlements were an exclusive province of Islamic pirates.

The Venetian Crusaders engaged in raids on Byzantine trading outposts in the Aegean during the 1120s.

On a side note, Venice was famed for selling slaves of Slavic origin once the Pope banned the sale of Christian slaves to Muslims. Venice regularly engaged in slave raids on the Dalmatian coast against the Pagani. This is around the 9th century, which the De Administrando Imperio attests to.

>>2228085
if you're maltese, i.e. an arabic speaking catholic, then you should know that identities in the mediterranean are complicated and that the line does not go strictly between muslims and christians.

Tbh I used to get really pissed at my gf over this shit too. She was Pakistani and literally Muslims could do no wrong. Its actually pretty annoying. Im not gonna break up with her over it but come the fuck on you can't see the flip side of an argument? It shows a deeper underlying problem other than just being wrong.

>>2229294
Feel free not to respond, I don't mean to be rude, but how does she feel about violence between Muslim sects?

>>2229294
>you can't see the flip side of an argument?
That flip side of the argument makes her feel like you did. That's the problem with the flip side - they don't exist for negotiation, only to dominate and say everyone else are wrong/jews/privileged/etc.

>>2229285
I believe Byzantine ships sacked the port of Marseille sometime before the First Crusade, and the Adriatic was full of Dalmatian Slavonic pirates fighting with Venetians. And then there's the North Sea shitshow.

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>>2229303
>I believe Byzantine ships sacked the port of Marseille sometime before the First Crusade

Source?

>>2229310
In the Annales Bertiniari. In 848 Greek pirates sacked Marseilles. Just a few years before that Arabs sacked it. And a few years after that Normans came and sacked the surrounding area.

>>2229259
>historical record shows no particular "persecution" or "oppression" of Christians in Muslim territories
>Jiyza is not oppression
>Christians having to live under Islamic law that treats them as second class citizens is not oppression
>Islamic conquerors definitely did not pillage, rape and enslave, even though their religion explicitly permits it.

>Christian pilgrims were allowed to visit the Holy Land and its sites, and they enjoyed legal protections.
>An entire knightly order was founded to protect pilgrims from raiders but that doesn't count because the pilgrims were 'allowed' to visit the Holy Land

You're fucking brainwashed mate.

>>2229302
She ignored it as I remember. It has been a while but when Id bring it up Id get something like "Its bad and wrong but X is worse." The way she would talk is 99% of Muslims love everyone and especially other Muslims.

If the crusades were Christians vs Muslims, what were the Jews up to?

>>2229339
Whatever you say, LARPer.

>>2228180
are you high?

>>2228180
That first paragraph is fucking incoherent as fuck. Most of this is really, it's hard to give a response when I don't know what you're trying to say.

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>>2229339
>This entire post
>You're fucking brainwashed mate.

Daily reminders
>The early church as pacifist
>Following their alliance with Constantine and his army,they formulated the "just war" theory
>The 11th century papacy decided that Wars were exactly what God wanted and tried to start crusades
>Urbans predecessor,Gregory VII tried and failed to launch a crusade
>Urban used atrocity propaganda to launch the successful first crusade

>>2229689
>He doesn't understand the definition of words
>Smug reaction image

>>2228085
The Crusades were clearly a powerplay by the Pope and various European lords, the continual holding of those lands had more to do with the money and power involved than the religion, not to mention the Crusades weren't Christians vs Muslims, it was a set of Christian factions vs a set of Muslim factions. Religion was a backdrop. I'm not saying Muslims didn't shit all over the middle east and Europe at some point beforehand, but it has less to do with the Crusades than it was made out to be.

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>>2228815
not him but here

>>2229339
>taxation is oppression

Kek yourself

>>2229347
Behind the scenes, scheming their next move


"Yes g-goy, fight for the Holy Land that we'll end claiming centuries later. Good goy"

>>2229647
not OP but im high and i understand him

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>>2228926
>You do realize the Greek Byzantines lived in fear of the Crusaders showing up on their lands
Again, patently untrue. Yes, there were incidents were the soldiers--without pay and food--took to helping themselves.
But your contention that the Eastern Roman Empire (which, BTW, in the Latin sources thesis how it was known right up until the fall) feared being sacked by the West more than the Turk is trash.
Right up until Constantine Xi died on the battlefield, they were still requesting Western help to keep the city from falling. There are also all sorts of legends surrounding Hagia Sophia (few of which are still extant since the Turks purged the city of Greeks in 1949 and shoved the Archbishop into a small, cramped area where he is regularly abused by the thrashing public).
There are 2 legends in particular. One is, the night before the city fell, the Hagia Sophia was surrounded by a strange blue glow all night as the Holy Spirit Left. The other? As the Turks filed in th rape, murder, and loot the Church, 2 priests fled "into" the wall to save the host from desecration. They will return the daily the Church is reconsecrated.

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>>2229830
You do understand that Christians, particular in Morrish-occupied Spain, were taxed at a rate they simply could not afford and it caused many of them to end up bankrupted and then to spend live and a galley slave?
Of course you know that. But as--wild guess here-- a Muslim living in the West, why would that matter to you? Another photo of my believed Hagia Sophia, which we WILL reconsecrate one day...

>>2229735
>Religion was a backdrop.
Again, you are just regurgitating to me whatever your marxist economics or history professor told you because they will go to any expense not to blame Islam for anything. Have yo see a map of what Islamic expansionism looked like one generation after the death of Mohammed? 4 of the 5 primary centers of the Christian world had been CAPTURED and one was being threatened. This was a faith people held for ~550 years. Are you going to sit with a straight face and tell me that's accurate? Keep in mind, you are not dealing with a fellow undergrad who is going to defer to you since you have brown skin, but someone who cared enough about the subject to get an MA in it.

>>2229289
>an arabic speaking catholic
Maltese is not Arabic. They can understand what we ay most of the time, when they begin speaking at their normal rate of speech, we cannot understand a thing they say. If you ever went to Malta and called someone an "arabic speaking catholic," you may well get punched in the face. Maltese are a mix of anicent Phoenician, some Norman, some Italian, not no Arabic. This can be easily discerned from a 23 ad me test and then comparing oneself to fellow Maltese
>

>>2229684
>That first paragraph is fucking incoherent as fuck
No, you just don't have the reading comprehension to understand it. I did make one mistake, which was putting 2-- rather than 200 in the paragraph.

I used to teach LSAT classes for Kaplan as a part time job in law school in NYC to buy my books. You are like an obnoxious student telling me "yeah, this LSAT reading passage doesn't make sense..." rather than understanding that you simply aren't clever enough to comprehend it.

>Muhhamads actually want to say Asiatic despot rule of Turks and moors was some sort half-way decent arrangement for their subjects.
>Not the oppressive rape and murder that would put European empires to shame

>>2230103
This.

>>2228085
> I actually had to end a relationship with a girl I was dating from Palestine I was seeing because she would simply not even consider the other point of view and we could not agree to disagree.
That's a standard behavior from those muslim barbarians.
They cannot into Truth.

>>2229647
Again, either a "we wuz.." or a basic lack of reading comprehension. Notice, you don't react to a single statistic or say "hey, tell me where you got x from..." or more aptly, "I'm a high school dropout, can you please explain this in a more guttural form of English such as the type to which I am accustomed?" Nope. People like you are why this board is in the state it's in.

I'll also add, all the statistics I give are from memory. Yes, I had to take a different career path into law simply because I refused to ever deal with the bullshit of an academic environment in the "safe space" culture that was already clearly beginning to bloom years ago at the more elite universities.

This egalitarianism snowflake mentality of, "If I don't understand it, there most be something wrong..." No friend, maybe it's just over your head.

Sounds like a personal issue

>>2230150
Blacks want gibs and reparations for slavery. Why shouldn't Europeans who were enslaved and mistreated by muslim turks and moors want the same thing?

Does anyone want more Hagia Sophia photos from when the entire place was emptied out? It gives a much better idea of the scale.

>>2230150
>Sounds like a personal issue
Note, since I assume you come from leddit. Unless you direct who you comment is addressed to, no one will know or care. In this case, since it's under my comment, I'll assume me but I still don't care. You aren't arguing any sort of fact, but just attempts at backhanded insults which really aren't all that insulting or clever. You cannot give details or discuss the historical issue in depth since you lack the knowledge.

>>2230155
They already got them in the form of Muslim slaves taken in kind, plus European hegemony over the MidEast for a few decades.

>>2230162
Considering you've only replied to posters that made the slightest personal pass at you and ignored everyone else that discussed the matter rationally, yeah, definitely personal.

>>2230163
>They already got them in the form of Muslim slaves taken in kind
{Citation Needed}

>>2230166
Anon, I just finished working and came to see the thread. Personal insults always welcome if they are clever put downs. I specifically came here to give rare photos of Hagia Sophia from when it was emptied out--something you literally cannot get anywhere else-- and no one even takes the slightest notice.

>>2230163
You won't bother watching this I'm sure, but her tis the late Dr. Tony Martin explaining the scale of the Arab trade in blacks and how it reach 100 million with a 90% (!!!) death rate during the trip to Arabia. No, that's not a typo. Which does not excuse Western slavery but sure as hell puts in in proportion and gives context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu0vQrZbhQo

The Crusades hardly even show up in Muslim historical texts because they weren't seen as that important. The Europeans were heathen savages to the Islamic states, and their arrival was seen as less of a conquest and more of a temporary setback to Islam's spread due to decadence and a lack of cohesion between Islamic rulers. In the time frame of the Crusades, wars between Muslim rulers accounted for much more death and destruction than the crusaders ever caused, and the Europeans were themselves often caught up in middle-eastern politics when Muslim rulers allied with then to further their own claims. In addition, the majority of Crusades were massive failures, and a few of them didn't even make it out of Europe, let alone Anatolia.

>>2228085

God you're a fucking faggot

>>2230171
There were European slave markets trading in Middle Eastern slaves throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Malta especially was a big one.

>>2228839

Neck yourself you huge autist

>>2229041
>>2229275

Its worth mentioning that Alexios expected a core of professional soldiers, western men clad in metal from head to toe on top of huge warhorses that had impressed him so much in the past. He did certainly not expect a fuckload of pilgrims, beggars and every other sort of scum that followed the barons and their men at arms.

>>2230214
If the ratio was 1 to 100,000 it really doesn't sound equal.

>>2229347
>what were the Jews up to?
During the Crusades, the Morrish conquest of Spain, the siege of Constantinople, you name it, the Jews were on the side of the Moor. In Spain, Jews were known to either open the gates secretly at night, provide maps, etc..

If one reads an account of the Fall of Constantinople, after the blood orgy of raping nuns, behaving infants and used their severed heads to extinguish candles, the Sultan did 3 things:
1. Went to the Cathedral pulpit and said "Rest now brothers, this place belongs to Allah."
2. Requested 500 Jews be sent from other parts of the Ottoman empire to handle the slave sales, confiscation of goods, that sort of thing
3. Called for a Greek who spoke Arabic to drawn him "a map of the known world" and label it in Arabic

This last point, right on he surface, reveals that all the talk of Muslims as "tending the flames of wisdom during the European Dark Ages" was her bullshit. Christ alone knows how much they destroyed when the sacked Constantinople that the world will never regain.

Just as modern "scholars" try to use every trick in the book to absolve Muslims of blue for burning down the library of Alexandria, despite the quote which has survived from the commanding general: "Burn it, all wisdom men need is in the Koran."

Having been raised in Malta after the socialist craze and before the Pc disaster, I'm in a unique place to comment on this since-- for a while at least-- the old stuff was brought out of the archives during the late 80s.early 90s when the Church stopped worrying so much about being loved by the Jewish element in the media and allowed students to just hear the truth.

>>2230220
We don't know the ratio, because there's little information on the scale of Muslim and Jewish slaves in Europe. But it'd hardly be that one-sided considering how there were markets in Lisbon, Aragon, Marseille, Livorno, Malta, Palermo, Venice, and Constantinople.

>>2230217
>Neck yourself you huge autist
Sir, by your language and choice of topic, I can tell that you are very learned. Perhaps you would allow me a bot time to bask in the glow of your knowledge and ask philosophical questions?

>>2230227
Don't play dumb. You know the ration and treatment doesn't even come close.

>>2228242
>>2228450
Alt translation: "Any criticism of Islam shows that you;re actually just an ignorant bigot who doesn't like brown people, so stop doing research on their history. They're peaceful, now stop doing your own research on the Quran and the history of Islam."

>>2230225
>Just as modern "scholars" try to use every trick in the book to absolve Muslims of blue for burning down the library of Alexandria, despite the quote which has survived from the commanding general: "Burn it, all wisdom men need is in the Koran."

They're hardly tricks, but responsible source criticism that you would apply to any historical claim.

>>2230234
>Don't play dumb. You know-
No, I don't, because I don't pretend to know what can't yet be proven without an extensive survey. Wanting to believe the scale is unfairly tipped one way or another is completely a matter of belief.

>>2230214
>There were European slave markets trading in Middle Eastern slaves throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance
Can you please provide an example? the only muslims "slave labor" used during this time was as galley slaves, and then only because Muslim shad begun the practice. you are aware of janesseries, correct anon? the kidnapping of young greek/baltic men at about age 8, brainwashing them in fundamentalist Isam, and then using them as an elite form of cannon fodder?

you've also heard of "harems," where pretty young Europeans girls (blondes with blue eyes were especially highly sought) were kidnapped from their coastal homes sometimes as young as 6?

Can you please tell me the European equivalent of the practices? I'd be genuinely curious, as in much study I've never come cross any such thing. Thanks in advance.

No. Most of the common mainstream disdain for the Crusades stems from lack of knowledge and/or education about the subject. The European Crusader armies were not unique in engaging in an offensive war. The Holy Land had been Jewish/Christian beforehand and the fact of the matter is that the Crusades were a response to Muslim aggression and conquest of the territory prior.

Another fun fact idiots never consider: Muslim armies had been invading Europe as early as the 8th century (with Tours). The Crusades pale in comparison to the scope of Muslim aggression in the Middle East and Europe that persisted almost since the inception of the religion.

>>2230242
We can inference the fact that slavery in Europe at this time a largely exotic affair. Not Millions.

>>2230225
> Christ alone knows how much they destroyed when the sacked Constantinople that the world will never regain.

Mostof it had already been lost to the venetians and their crusading buddies mate. First by the puppet emperor they put in place, who was happy to pay his western buddies by melting everything made out of gold and silver that he could get his hands on, particularly church relics and then when the city was finally sacked everything of value was taken or melted. The lions in venice didnt just magically show up there.

>>2228854
>>2230217
>Y-you broke up over your principles? If only I could find a girl who'd have sex with me I'd bend over backwards for m'lady

>>2230242
>I don't pretend to know what can't yet be proven without an extensive survey
Oh, your tribe "pretends" to know quite a lot! The idea that a Muslim army burned down the library of Alexandria (which had indeed suffered slight damage previously, perhaps as far back as Caesar) is completely true. I blame my my own European counterpart for obfuscating matters like this in deference to a minty population who are going to just keep taking more and more and more.

If a group of Christian immigrants on the Islamic peninsula (who would never be allowed there in the first place) behaved as Muslims do in Italy, France, Germany, etc... they would have been beheaded. All of them.

amazing to be lectured by a Muslim on this board on "tolerance," when the Saudis have yet to take a single "migrant" from a war where they and the other Gulf States (Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, Bahrain UAE) provided much of the funding and weaponry.

>>2228085

Women base their final convictions on emotion and feelings, anon. You failed in trying to win an argument using logic with a woman.

>>2230253
>Mostof it had already been lost to the venetians and their crusading buddies mate
Ah, thanks! So it was the CRUSADER armies who either painted over.scratched out.otherwise defaced the mosaics inside Hagia Sophia (see my own personal photos above). I never knew that, learn new things here everyday.

>>2230246
Here's a primary source:
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/1248serfs5.asp

Arab and Moorish slaves were used on church owned property and as domestic servants. The Janissaries began as a corps of prisoners of war who were later taken from Balkan villages to increase their numbers, and who subscribed to their own Sufi dervish orders.

Elite cannon fodder is an oxymoron.

Harems were also places that took in maids and young brides who willingly joined in order to take part in courtly politics. Most slave women taken for the harem were in fact made to serve these girls, and it's later that the institution begins to favor slaves of humble or unknown origin over women of higher status.

>>2230252
Based on what, exactly? We'd be shooting from the hip with any sort of guess. It's not as though European slaves in Middle Eastern markets could be that much higher considering 1-1.5 million is the high estimate over a span of several centuries. A good several hundred thousand seems likely, and that's mostly because demographics are greatly skewed towards Europe versus a more sparsely populated Middle East that wanted and needed the cheap labor.

>>2230267
I don't have any interest in modern politics and existentialism. It doesn't change that to take the idea of an Arab involvement in burning down the Library of Alexandria is more of a stretch than accepting the Gnostic gospels as old as the originals.

>>2230275
>using logic with a woman
That's all true. She was pretty (for a Palestinian to have blue eyes, I always insisted her ancestors must have ben a victim of human trafficking, which she did not like). But I didn't really make the thread to moan about losing a girl. Just that it truly taught me how cemented these views are in the Middle East. They never considered, Christians never attacked and pillaged Mecca or Medina. We may as well have pillaged Mecca, it couldn't be any worse than now since it literally looks like Las Vegas. Have to wonder about the sanity of anyone who would sign off on that for a supposedly very accent and holy place.

Imagine a hotel like that overlooking St. Peter's Square?

>>2230281
lel, muslims may have defaced some mosaics but the crusaders destroyed every single statue, reliquary, altars and pretty much everything made of metal. You have your head so far up your ass that you're willingly ignoring the tremendous damage done to the city and its population by the crusaders. By the time the roaches conquered the city the was barely anything left to loot, deface or a population to abuse.

>>2230293
>for a Palestinian to have blue eyes, I always insisted her ancestors must have ben a victim of human trafficking, which she did not like

I think that highlights a major issue with your thinking. You come to these conclusions with little to no evidence for them but insist on their absolute truthfulness because they align with a certain narrative. There are several reasons why a Levantine would have blue eyes, some of which date back to human movements since before Islam even existed.

>>2230303
Thats what happens when you put the books aside and use /pol/ as a source for education instead.

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>>2230283
I was going t go one by one and refute these, nd having dated a Muslim for 2 years I have tolerance for a certain amount of this bullshit. But as soon as you begin justifying the practice of Janesseries...you lose me.
also, "elete cannon fodder," in this case, makes absolute sense. Even Islamic Scholars will admit that the Ottomans were willing to lose incredible numbers of lives in pursuing any military goal.

(while this man is not an authoritative source, his graphs are correct...so you, i the believe these people just willing one day saw the superiority of Isa and gave up 500 years plus of faith? Or would you agree they were converted by the sword?

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>>2230087
>But your contention that the Eastern Roman Empire (which, BTW, in the Latin sources thesis how it was known right up until the fall) feared being sacked by the West more than the Turk is trash.

WRONG

The Byzantines were dismayed when the First Crusade showed up in Byzantine territory, especially because these had taken to pillaging from the local citizenry, since - having no administrative apparatus - they were completely incapable of conducting logistics to enable supply lines. The citizenry of Constantinople and its suburbs quickly became afraid of the undisciplined Latins, and even the Emperor was disappointed (and that's an understatement) that the Pope had sent such rabble along, since when he had asked for help, he had expected a more capable and organized force.

Also:
>believing in folk-tales

Go the fuck back to /x/, retard.

>>2230309
>use /pol/ as a source for education instead.
I love how you continually try to somehow insult anyone you disagree with by trying to associate them with pol. I'm aware of the different ME groups with blue eyes such as al-awaites, yazidis, etc.. It wasn't only her blue eyes, she just completely European features to where she would not have looked out of place dressed nice and walking down the street in Paris in the 1930s.
You try to make sweeping generalizations to tar other people, yet you demonstrate very little working knowledge of the cause you purport to defend.

>>2230322
What the hell is your point you took from "crusader kings?" In the western Latin sources, right up until the end, BYZANTINE WAS KNOWN AS EASTERN ROME. This is demonstrably do. Do you read Latin? How do I know the answer is no?

Read what you copy pasted, take whatever is stuck up your brown out and then read it again. You are so desperate to "catch" someone who knows more than you that apparently don't see you've made as ass of yourself...

Now, read what you copied, read what you wrote, and then read what i wrote. :)

>>2230313
I don't believe I ever justified Janissaries to you or to anyone. I explained to you that your details on who and what they were was mistaken, and corrected them. And that does not make 'elite cannon fodder' any less a contradiction. The Ottomans did not lack for actual cannon fodder in the first place, which makes a need for an elite form of them rather pointless.

And I'm not sure what your last point has to do with what we were just discussing, but no. MENA was not converted from Christianity to Islam by the sword (Central Asia and Iran after the Mongols and Timurids were). The region had a substantial Christian presence for centuries after the Arab Conquests which continued right into the 20th century when we see a substantial decline with the rise of Arab Nationalism.

>>2230334
>demonstrably TRUE. Like being assaulted on all sides by someone trying to "trip you up." Pick any decree addressed from/to Byzantium right up until the fall--written in Greek or Latin-- and you will see this is how they describe themselves. That's not a debate.

Whatever "crusader...we wuz kings" game you used to think you "Caught me" has nothing to do with the name of the geographic area. also, your information is wrong, but these are minor details.

>>2230339
>who and what they were was mistaken
Once ever 2 years I believe it was, every male between the ages of 67-10 was lined up before the local "turk Lord." Those who displayed the best physical skill and mental acumen were kidnapped, brainwashed in what can only be described as as Whabbism before Whabbism officially existed, and used as a form of "elite cannon fodder."

Is tis as oxymoron? Absolutely not. If, as in the siege of Malta, almost the entire crop was killed, more Christian parents under Ottoman rule were simply separated from their sons.

Islam displays these same exact characteristics today in many ways in terms of the utter disregard for human life. the same can be said the US of course, but it takes a special sort of brainwashing to blow oneself with a nail bomb in the heart of Paris, a City that has done its best to welcome you, feed you, keep you alive, etc..

Pray you good sir, if I was having a hard time of it in the West and showed up unannounced on the Saudi Arabian border, would i be allowed into Mecca or even Riyadh and provided with clothes and food and even given lessons on flirting with the local girls? Yes or no?

Your people are taking advantage of pathological altruism. And i've been writing all day for work, so you can find a lot of typos her eI'm sure and try to use those to discredit me, but the point remains the same--dspite them being your religious kin, you don't want them in audi Arabia because they are a financial and potential social burden, especially young men in a religion that practices polygamy.

I really don't appreciate it when people try to treat me as if I'm dumb. That may work on the White guilt cuckolds on FB or wherever you are used to hanging out. Not here.

>>2230367
>etween the ages of 67-10
BETWEEN AGES OF 6/7-10

>le I almost was forced to concede the truth of your point but since you made a typo after an entire fucking day or writing, I'll now just focus on that typo to the exclusion of everything else you said

pretty much how it will go...

>>2230367
>>2230367

Then, one by one:

It was not every male, it was every male child of a multi-child household chosen only from a certain number of villages. They were taken onto Turkish farmer and craftsmen households, then educated at palace schools, then inducted into Sufi dervish orders (which were not Wahhabism as there existed a very similar fundamentalist sect in the 17th century which were avowed rivals and enemies of the Sufi orders which the Janissary order patronized).

It's a contradictory description of their purpose still. These Janissaries were not taken and raised for the express purpose of dying by the droves on an island siege. They were there to win, and the fact that they didn't and fell by the thousands was never part of the plan but a disaster. Cannon fodder implies a military unit existed to absorb casualties that could not be afforded by more valued troops.

I have no interest in modern politics, but it is almost never wise or useful to try and connect past ideologies that operated in a very different world to modern ideologies that operate on different premises and goals. If Islam were the same today as it was in the past, we'd have seen lone Turkish galleys stuffed with greek fire crash themselves into Christian ports while yelling God is Great.

Finally, I've been nothing but respectful to you, engaging with you without once insulting your intelligence or claiming you're part of some conspiracy or dangerous group out to befuddle me. If you're OP, you said you wanted an honest discussion. Is it really so much to expect some decency and at least some trust, then?

>>2230093
The rate of jizya has historically varied. Arguing that one example of extreme taxation affects the tax itself is like arguing taxes are bad because some states abused their distribution.

>>2230428
>These Janissaries were not taken and raised for the express purpose of dying by the droves on an island siege. They were there to win,
you do realize you are sitting here defending the kidnapping of other people's children to brainwash into a foreign religion and ideology? And I assume you're doing it with a straight face?
you also realize, you can debate the rate of "jizya" all you want but as late as the 1820s, when thomas Jefferson went to ask the Barbary states what the hell was going on and why they were touching Us ships, he was answered simply "You are infidels and therefore must submit and pay a tax."

And you are here justifying...jizya, kidnapping children, harems, and all the rest...all the while, I'd certainly bet, living in a Western country and would be first to run to a Jewish lawyer if someday YOUR CHILD was taken by whatever Western state you reside in and trained for war against Islam, correct?

>>2230627
I'm going to assume this is a language barrier, because I'm very certain I have never justified any of these things. Explaining the facts as they are is no more justification than a prosecutor at a trial explaining what the defendant is accused of and did is him justifying those actions. It's for that matter I also doubt you mean honest discussion when you say you want an honest discussion, and are only here to harangue anyone that does not agree with your particular world view and polemics.

>>2230428
As I hear these sorts of things, my sympathy even for the Palestinians fades. In the interests of wider human justice, by every standard, the Palestinians have the right to that land. And, as a US citizen now, I resent having to pay $38 billion to Israel and being used as their sole voice in the UN security council.
And then I read something like this, and despite all the injustices I know are being done to the Palestinians, I wonder--if your kind ever got significant power-- just how quickly you would return to old behaviors if you are able to sit here and justify all of this with a straight face.

While, in academia, the White Man is meant to feel guilty for every hair he harmed on those go so innocent muslim heads. how long before you'd be skinning... Venetian governors of Crete again (the incident which promoted the Battle of Lepanto) and stuffing their body with raw and then hanging atop the mast of your ship?

these beliefs are so historically ingrained that you did NOTHING wrong (over 100 million dead African slaves, somewhere around 5 million did European ones) that it makes me question just how wrong the Jews are to want to stay separated. Which is fine by me, I just don't want to pay for it.
I must say, you really opened my eyes.

>>2230641
>is a language barrier,
No, just your stupidity, immorality and unjustified ethnocentrism. As soon as you start minimizing these things, you are justifying them. for a European (who has a soul) the correct answer would be "yes, that was awful." Not "yes, but...it was only the child of..the Jizya was only..."GTFO of here.

>>2230651
>>2230656

To be perfectly honest, it doesn't seem like you were ever interested in opening them in the first place. Again, you don't seem to grasp the difference between explaining facts and justification, again you're making this as personal as possible, and again you're mixing some thousand years of history with modern politics and ideological narrative. You had some great responses in this thread, nearly all of which you've chosen to ignore in order to target only people who insulted you or who you could misconstrue anyway that seems to please you at the moment. All I can say is I did you a favor and that's my good deed for the day, so I can't help you overcome these demons that seemingly ruined your personal relationships and academic experiences any more than this.

>>2228790
>>2228854
To be frank, it's you who appear(s) immature and not yet grown up. Good luck with your long-term relationship to someone who is extremely narrow-minded and retreats to irrationality when faced with facts instead of considering the facts and perhaps learning something and adjusting their views. It's not as if this type of disagreement can be cleanly isolated from everything else. It says a lot about the person and the essentially fanatic position they are taking on an issue, and there is no way the relationship doesn't sour over time unless you willingly subjugate yourself to the tyranny of her irrationality. You know, there are couples who get married and end up hating each other like each other's worst enemies even without cheating. That stuff doesn't come out of nowhere. So perhaps have a rethink about your present sense of perspective ten years from now.

>>2230775
>Am I out of touch?
>No, it's the children who are wrong

The problem is he's both people involved are immature and narrow-minded who won't budge an inch precisely because the other side won't.

>>2229041
>Crusades were not a response to Muslim 'aggression'
There was a history of hundreds of years of Muhammadan aggression before the Crusades. If that had never happened, there would never have been a Crusade. So yes, it was a response to Muslim aggression, certainly in a historical sense and to some degree in the immediate sense as well.

>>2229259
Muhammadan raiding was religiously motivated/sanctioned, which is different from some random bands of pirates causing problems. On the other hand, when bands of Crusaders carried out massacres and pillaged places, those acts had no religious justification or validity.

It's kind of important to understand what different religions teach because if you don't you soon level all distinctions and end up with unelightening tu quoque narratives.

>>2228085
AFAIK the Crusades were basically mostly landless knights who got bored in a period of relative peace going over to the MENA region for a good raid of an unprecedented scale. They might have felt noble and holy while doing it as we always delude ourselves, but to portray it as some noble mission to save "Christendom" from evil Muslims is just rubbish. The point is, it was not really better or worse than Muslim conquests, it's pretty much the same. The Crusades were not a serious transgression of contemporary morality.

he way I see it it has many parallels with the Muslim endeavours in Europe: a young culture that has just solidified its internal power structures that would define it in the coming centuries stops fighting over it and tries its power on the neighbouring contintent, eventually failing but leaving behind a few bastions of itself far from home.

That being said, I think it's one of the coolest events in history. I feel sort of proud of it, actually.

>>2228085

Here are some thoughts.

The "Christians versus Muslims" dichotomy is overused. Some people think it was a war between two religions and nothing else. That's not true, there are many examples of multi religious alliances to fight another enemy.

Like often when we talk about war, some people tend to forget it's caused mainly because of political moves. The first crusade is a result of the council of Clairmont where the pope said that Muslims where oppressing Christians in the Holy Land. That was found to be exaggerated if not false, while the mails between the head of the church and the Byzantine emperor shows that the later called the pope for help against the invading Seljuk Turks in Anatolia.

About what you said, I don't know if it's smart to compare the Christian and Muslim invasions. There are a lot of today's politics involved since entities like USA or ISIS which try to use history to push their agenda. History is about facts, not judgment, and the people who did all that are long dead by now.

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>>2230334
From Wikipedia, with sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade#Situation_in_the_Middle_East

>The princes arrived in Constantinople with little food and expected provisions and help from Alexios. Alexios was understandably suspicious after his experiences with the People's Crusade, and also because the knights included his old Norman enemy, Bohemond, who had invaded Byzantine territory on numerous occasions with his father, Robert Guiscard, and may have even attempted to organize an attack on Constantinople while encamped outside the city.

>The crusaders may have expected Alexios to become their leader, but he had no interest in joining them, and was mainly concerned with transporting them into Asia Minor as quickly as possible. In return for food and supplies, Alexios requested the leaders to swear fealty to him and promise to return to the Byzantine Empire any land recovered from the Turks. Godfrey was the first to take the oath, and almost all the other leaders followed him, although they did so only after warfare had almost broken out in the city between the citizens and the crusaders, who were eager to pillage for supplies.

There, you fucking idiot born of idiots. The general Byzantine reaction to the presence of the Crusaders was hostility and suspicion.

>"WAAAAAH, THEY'RE EASTERN ROMANS, NOT BYZANTINES!"

Stick it up your ass, idiot.

>>2230916
>History is about facts, not judgment, and the people who did all that are long dead by now.
This is a cultural Marxist position. History, culture, is what shapes and binds a people together, gives them an identity and builds close, high-trust communities which every study shows leads to less isolation and greater feelings of happiness, belonging, and satisfaction.

Thisis why "multiculturalism" is a failure, especially in its current manifestation where Whites are singled out as being somehow uniquely evil, burn with a scarlet letter of "white privilege."

At the same time Whites are told we have this original sin of "Whire privilege and this are uniquely toxic, where are millions of Syrians and Africans flooding? Not to Saudi Arabia. Not to China. They'd shoot them. No, amazingly they come to live under this "oppression," which I think begs the question, why are they coming?

Every Study (most notably Putnam out of Harvard) shows that the greater "diversity," the lower trust and the less happiness in any community. And these are just social aspects, forget terror and questions of whether Islam (a religion where many find the idea of separation of Church and state absurd) are suited for life in the West.

On the point of "religious alliances," there is one notable example I can think of. If you've ever bent the National Gallery in Spain and looked a the pictures of battle, you will always dee the Christian warriors (such as "el Cid") on one side and, on the other, Muslims and Jews. Muslims and Jews had their own alliance against Christianity right up until the number of Jews in Palestine began to top 20% in some places. that's where you then had pogroms in some places.

But prior to that in Moorish Granada and later in the Fall of Constantinople Jews played the part of both 5th columnist (opening gates, showing the Moors shortest in) and then tax collectors, slave trader, and administrator. This was also true in Constantinople.

>>2231022
>using wikipedia as a reliable source. for anything.
I prefer history without the input of the political motives of certain groups:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMBramnCg_s

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>>2231044
>Facts are cultural marxism

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>>2231053
>"I prefer history without the input of the political motives of certain groups."
>posts a vid about 'da Jooz!'

>>>/s/uicide

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>>2231022
lol, you're fucking retarded. I began taking Latin in 3rd grade. Right up until the fall, if you look at sources from the Italian city states, France, the German States, Constantinople was known as "Eastern Rome."

>Pedro from a community college in Arizona is correcting my knowledge of Latin and the Classics.

Umm,yeah, no thanks paco.

>>2231044
you contradicted your starting point within 3 lines

>>2231354
>makes random accusation but doesn't point it out

>>2231365
>facts over judgements is a cultural marxist standpoint
>goes on to explain that within cultural marxist society, the evil oppressing whites narrative of history is being pushed down everyone's throats

Unless you think that whites being evil and guilty is a fact and not a judgement based on exaggerations and cherrypicking, you contradicted your statement. Provided you are the person I originally replied to.

>>2231376
>whites being evil and guilty is a fact
In a post-truth world, the media (which one a given group trusts) sets the agenda and decides what is "fact." Culture Marxism is a completely one-sided narrative. During all these years, what has been the prime example they've found of "black Oppression by White Police?" A 6 foot 6 black buy who robs a convince store, and then when confronted rushes the car and tries to grab the cop's gun. He gets shot. What happens? Of course, the tone gets burned down.

you're honestly going to pretend there are uniform standards? That, if tomorrow, I were killed by a black cop for something totally insane (as happened in Louisiana last year, where 2 black deputies killed the child of a man whose wife he was sleeping with) that there would be riots in the street?

I don't think you understand Cultural Marxism, its goals, how it came to be through the Frankfurt school and disseminated though a college formed in NYC in 1937 called "The New School," whose true purpose was to simply given Jewish immigrants credentials they never truly earned and thus allow them to begin teaching in the US and spreading their poison.

I highly suggest you go back to the beginnings of PC culture, cultural marxism, etc.. and start with the Frankfort School (until the Germans had the god sense tog et rid of them) and they all landed at Columbia, Princeton, NYU,the CUNYs, where they began to gnaw away t the foundations of Western thought and culture like termites.

>>2230146
A simple yes would have sufficed, schizo, thank you

>>2228085
Its pretty telling that crusaderfags have to bring up muslim millitary actions long before and after the crusades to make a point.

Also not every fucking war is religiously motivated

>>2230334
You read again what he copied and pasted and what he typed, he didn't talk about the name AT ALL and instead addressed your other point. Please just go back to /pol/ you LARPing faggot

>>2230367
>Ottoman empire
>Any form of Wahhabism

>>2231044
Why do you always try to shoehorn your political agenda in everything?

>>2231044
How do we keep going from the crusades to multiculturalism? I hate the /pol/ boogeyman but at least try to hide it. This is a history board, stop being fucking autistic about your political views. Reported.

>>2228085
>mfw people in the west think the middle eastern crusades mattered
>mfw in the middle east they're just a footnote in history and they care more about the mongol conquests
only one that had any important effect was the northern crusades, which were just catholic chimpouts

the crusades were launched for land
not as in the holy land, but by simple greed and chance
it was the age of feudalism, the supposedly rightous and easy way to make wealth

obviously there were naive and/or ppl with a vision participating in them but the main driving power was simply greed

i highly doubt you were participating in any sort of uni education with the agenda you are having

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>>2228085

the crusades were a mix of opportunists and zealots

SJWs like to say it was 100% opportunism
altright likes to say it was 100% zeal

>>2229339
considering that people of other religions living in christian lands had a convert or die choice, I think the muzzies did well enough

>>2231554
sometimes they got to live as slaves tho

>>2231495
>Its pretty telling that crusaderfags have to bring up muslim millitary actions long before and after the crusades to make a point.
There's literally nothing wrong with this. On the contrary, linking historical events to each other is a very solid way of explaining causes and motives. It's what creates a context.

>Also not every fucking war is religiously motivated
Noone claims this, but Jihad undeniably was.

>>2231564
>Noone claims this, but Jihad undeniably was.
Large amounts of the Islamic conquests were motivated by necessity.

>>2229339
>>2231554
Both Muslim and Christian rulers pressured subjects to convert where convenient.

Christian rulers in Europe were faced with decentralized pagans with little literary tradition and competing christian sects. The population was more dense so there were few pockets where a religious group might remain isolated and have less exposure to the prevailing religion.

Muslim rulers were faced with Christians, Zoroastrians and various other groups dotted around in coastal trading cities, strips of land suitable for agriculture surrounded by desert and low density populations in vast mountainous regions. It is naive to think the mass conversions in the first wave of Islamic conquests were entirely peaceful. Afterwards Islamic rulers reached a comrpromise with the various pockets that proved difficult to sway and that is why they subjected them to Jizya only.

>>2229705
How did he manage to make people belief the cathars were attacking them?
The baltic prussians didnt seem that hostile either, more of a "pls leave me the fuck alone" faction.

>>2231546
Yes yes, I too remember the great empire of Malta.

>>2231495
>>2231564
>>2231568
muslims and christians were inherently different, but the differences were largely irrelevant

does it really matter whether you're allowed to draw jesus or keep pigs? How does that influence your battle stategies?

I kinda want to know if the Muhammad = Bahopmet connection is true or not.

Some crusaders were accused of worshiping (M)Bahomet, worshiping strange gods, etc.

Is this where the "devilization" of christianity came to be?

>>2231599
>Bahopmet
Baphomet is bullshit made up to persecute the Knights Templar.

>>2231568
>necessity
Do elaborate, because any war can be justified with 'necessity,' making it a meaningless buzzword.

It also doesn't agree with the fact that most Islamic conquest were offensive wars of aggression, as 'necessity' implies a urgent need with dire consequences when ignored, so when you're put on the defense.
It was not necessary to conquer Constantinople, Spain, North-West Africa, Persia, Anatolia, India etc because they wouldn't have risked losing anything if the hadn't.

The only time I can think of in which Mohammed fought a offensive war in necessity was when he preemptively attacked Byzantine Egypt/Levant, for they were starting to openly express desires to attack him.

>>2231613
I said some, mainly the early ones.

Telling a vast army to just go home isn't feasible, they needed to put them to work.

>>2231599
references to muhammad taken out of context

>>2231613
It is necessary if you don't want to spend the rest of your life as a commoner living in poverty. I think when faced with that most of us would take the opportunity to earn 20 years worth of wages and property in a year of campaigning. You would conduct your war honorably, say it is in the name of god and so forth to justify it.

>>2231613
Did he also preemptivly raid caravans?

>>2231638
This is true though.
A society wants to get rid of young surplus men, if you tell them their sins will be cleansed by this fight theyll surely go.

>>2228740
What's the author? Not sure if I hadn't read that.

>>2228085
>the Crusades and their cause

chuckie hammer should have rolled over and let the noble saracen take europe. it took them 1300 years, but it's finally happening.

>>2230176

Please post more. I'm late to the thread but I'm enjoying these images a lot

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>>2231664
also, why was the hammer always depicted with an axe?

>C-can we have an honest discussion please?
>WHAT YOU SAID ONE OF MY ARGUMENTS IS WRONG? YOU ARE A FUCKING KEK FUCK YOU AND YOUR MULTICULTURALISM

>>2231962
Guess that's what being a mix of italian manlet and arab manlet does to you

>>2228790
I dumped my ex over disagreements about Swedish asylum politics, and we're not even Swedish. You just can't invest in a relationship to be long-term if you disagree strongly on fundamental things. The fact that the specific things being argued about might seem trivial is not the point, but rather they should be viewed as early warning signs of things to come.

>>2230115
>They can understand what we ay most of the time, when they begin speaking at their normal rate of speech, we cannot understand a thing they say.
that's the same as with arabs who speak different dialects then

>If you ever went to Malta and called someone an "arabic speaking catholic," you may well get punched in the face
sure. doesn't mean it's not true though.
Maltese is an arabic dialect, specifically it evolved from siculo-arabic, which also used to be spoken in sicily. It diverged from the macro-language because it cut its ties to the rest of the arab world and thus the standard arabic language. later it also took on extensive lexical influence from italian and english but extensive borrowing doesn't make it unusual among arabic dialects.

>Maltese are a mix of anicent Phoenician, some Norman, some Italian, not no Arabic. This can be easily discerned from a 23 ad me test and then comparing oneself to fellow Maltese
we're talking about language here not genetics. but probably there is quite a bit of arabic genetic material in maltese people as well. the people who call themselves arabs today are also a genetic mix of the populations that lived in their areas before (berbers, phoenicians, egyptians, assyrians, hebrews, greeks etc.) with some admixture from arab conquerors.

>>2228925
>holding a grudge about something that *didn't even happen to you.*
so like jews, blacks, feminists, meninists, etc?

>>2231664
How's life in Argentine, Adolph?

>>2231598
Ignorance of tribalism is laughable but still inexcusable. No matter how little they differed they were different, and that's all it takes to justify putting themselves above the other.

>>2230439
So you'd be completely fine with Muslims in America paying, say 10% more taxes then Christians ?
They are a minority.

>>2232031
So you compare yourself to niggers, kikes and fags?

>>2232007
>Maltese is an arabic dialect,
That's akin to claiming that Africans or Indians must have Anglo genetics since they speak English. It's nonsensical.

>>2231473
>, schizo,
lol...shizo, autist..what other kind names have you used Always know you hit a nerve when someone begins projecting their own DSM-V diagnosis into you.
So, are your disorders Axis 1 or Axis 2? Are you on an SSRI or MAOI Inhibitor? I'd make a substantial bet on your psych history, and 10 to 1 I'd get it completely correct.

>>2232007
>Maltese is an arabic dialect, specifically it evolved from siculo-arabic, which also used to be spoken in sicily. It diverged from the macro-language because it cut its ties to the rest of the arab world and thus the standard arabic language. later it also took on extensive lexical influence from italian and english but extensive borrowing doesn't make it unusual among arabic dialects.
I think you are the same person, still backpedalling/spinning a tire that won't move, because this idea holds zero validity. The history of linguistics becomes useless as a tool from tracking genetic as soon as we have reliable written sources. And even without written sources,habing had my genetics done via "23 and me" I can tell you that you're not correct.

Using linguistics to track movement of peoples was last useful in determining that the Indians got Sanskrit from an earlier version of a Proto-Indo-European language spoken by a people who would most accurately be described as "Aryans."

If one ever wants to get an Indian academic angry, bring up this point and watch the fireworks,

>>2232688
He was talking about linguistics, not genetics.

>>2232000
This guy gets it. Anon, it's probably a safe bet that the people making snarky comments have yet to even lose virginity, thus they cannot imagine having a political disagreement and standing their ground to a female rather than simply giving in and pretending to agree with her. These are thee sort the Bernie Sanders "Prep the Bull" memes were made for last year. No matter how attractive or personable a girl may be, if you have a systemic lack of agreement on certain issues, it's just never going to work.

Maybe for a normal type who doesn't care, but not if one one has spent JR. year abroad in Florence studying the Renaissance and then went on to get an MA in Med & Renn Studies (even if it is layered over with the cynicism of a JD).

>>2232709
So was I. And I'll repeat, linguistics become useless as a way to determine genetics (which is what he was trying to do earlier) once impeccable primary sources and sound genetic methods are available.

>>2232636
>>2232688

as i said i wasn't making a point about genetics which is completely irrelevant in this discussion. i was only talking about linguistic facts.

it may very well be that you don't have any arab or berber genes in you at all but it it is unlikely that they are completely absent in the maltese population since after all arabs/north africans ruled the island for 200 years. again though, this is irrelevant to my point.

>I think you are the same person, still backpedalling/spinning a tire that won't move, because this idea holds zero validity.
okay but would you care to explain to me why this well-established linguistic fact "holds zero validity" instead of throwing empty phrases at me? in what way am i backpedalling?

>Using linguistics to track movement of peoples was last useful in determining that the Indians got Sanskrit from an earlier version of a Proto-Indo-European language spoken by a people who would most accurately be described as "Aryans."
this has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about, but it is also incorrect since linguistics is still successfully being used now to track early human movement, wherever the linguistic evidence is being used in conjunction with archaelogical and genetic findings.

>If one ever wants to get an Indian academic angry, bring up this point and watch the fireworks,
this is true but again irrelevant to what we were talking about

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>>2232655
do it bitch, I bet you won't

>>2230146
Nigga, when a single paragraph has multiple unconnected points that don't lead into one another in any meaningful way, it might be you that needs to learn basic reading comprehension.

Cause at the moment you're worse off than a down syndrome 2 year old.

>>2230146
No, your post definitely looks like you started typing 8 different sentences and cancelled all of them, leaving only fragments behind. The same "jump" in thoughts can be seen right here:

>I'll also add, all the statistics I give are from memory. Yes, I had to take a different career path into law simply because I refused to ever deal with the bullshit of an academic environment in the "safe space" culture that was already clearly beginning to bloom years ago at the more elite universities.

Nothing we talked about has anything to do with safe space shit, we never talked about any of our career paths, yet you bring that up like that was the subject of our argument, and your wanna be psychologist redditor responses prove that you are definitely mentally ill.

>>2228085
>A girl... from Palestine

You can't be from Palestine, it's not a place.

ITT : Christians and Muslims arguing who was the less evil to the world. You fucking abrahamics I tell you. You both were a blight on the world . Wish that stupid Jew from Nazareth had some terminal cancer and sided before bequeathing his autism to the world and wish that illiterate from mecca got kicked in his nads by a horse and died before sperging out with his muhhh God told me bs.

The world would have been a much better place with eastern religions which were philosophically more advanced , Zoroastrianism and assorted pagan faiths all over the world.

t.non-abrahamic

>>2232086
I was referring specifically to their abilities and decisions, but good point. It is true that commoners will always be petty tribalists and that is a factor.

>>2228450
welcome to /his/ friend. they're all like this

Tell me more OP.

>>2232802
>You can't be from Palestine
The arrogance of you Jews/Christian Zionists is truly breathtaking. Who exactly do you think was living there until 1949 when the Irgun drove out these families? Can you imagine what the world we be like if everyone acted as the Jews do?

If the Jews claim a right to Jerusalem from 2,000 years ago, certainly the Orthodox Christians have a claim on Constantinople, do they not?

And then on top on everything in direct defiance of JFK, you Jews brought nuclear weapons into the region and literally built a false floor above the actual plant at Dimona. Given what happened to Iran, Syria, and Libya the Iranians would be crazy NOT to be seeking a nuclear weapons. If you look at the document "Protecting the Realm," written by the same Jewish neocons who later forced us into Iraq on spurious information and cost us over 5 trillion dollars, Iran is the only one left on their kill list.

both as bad as each other desu

a bunch of western europeans carving out states in the middle east isn't any less imperialistic than arabs arabing, just on a smaller scale

>>2236448
>the arrogance of You Jews/Christian Zionists

>>2236466
*reclaiming existing Christian kingdoms

>>2237058
*taking Semite lands

>>2236720
you're too stupid to see that this is a perfectly sensible statement. Both groups are driving us toward a 3rd WW,albeit for different reasons. There's a good Louis Theroux (think it's called "the ultra-zionists") where he's following about a group of rapture bunnies from colorado in Israel willingly using their VACATION to act as ACTUAL SLAVES for the Jew, picking grapes for one due to some verse in the bible, undoubtedly put into their head in those famous Jewish-sponsored "interfaith dialogues."

Or how about my favorite, "the International Fellow ship of Christians and Jews." Here's how it works: Christians pay all the shekels, Jews take all the benefit, but don't worry goy! Yaweh will bless you!

This is one thing I really get steamed about. These greasy, leering, hooknoses-- by far the wealthiest minority ethnic group ever on the planet-- taking some lonely old woman's last few dollars to "feed hungry Jews" (!!!) and believing it will cure her cancer or whatever is wrong with her. It's people like this Rabbi Ecelstein (and his fellow Jews who allow it to go on) that sometimes makes me wonder if Jews are even part of the same race (note before you watch this-- the Bolshevik revolution was Jewish from the word "GO," from Marx and then Trotsky/Bronstein. These are also the same Jews who starved 9 million Ukrainians to death in the Holodomor and then bankrupted an entire generation in the 90s with "privatization" as they tricked an entire generation of the prettiest young Russian women into working as prostitutes in Tel-aviv:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkuWZVp9YRU

Before the first Jew pops up and tells e I'm lying about the enslavement if slavic c women in Israel, here is a video of a single rid on one brothel, where the girls are forced to hide inside walls under pain of death. If the girls think about testifying against their former Jew pimp, the lives of their family back home are threatened. So more information, see the book "the Natashas" by Viktor Malarek. 12 Oligarchs (10 of them Jews) bankrupt the Russian nation and this is how the women are forced to survive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEEbH7ANBOE

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>>2228085

>So, having said that, is there anyone here who actually believes that the Crusades were "worse" than the Islamic armies capturing (and keeping) 4 of the 5 original centers of Christian thought

The early Arab conquests are as good as irrelevant to the crusades anyway, because the crusades weren't prompted by the events that happened 400 years before them. If you read modern historians on the subject, you'll find them disagreeing on what the real cause behind the crusades was

Some see it as the response of a Byzantine request for military support that got out of hand. Some suggest that it was just to safeguard Christian pilgrimage to Jerusalem without having to be robbed by a bunch of Seljuq tribesmen that even the Sultan couldn't completely control to begin with. Some say it was a means to an end; to establish a more durable peace in the Latin Christian world by siphoning violence towards a cause that was pallatable in Christian minds. You can't just go around proclaiming that the sack of Rome that happened 200 years prior to the crusades are somehow a contributing or relevant factor in what caused it. Sometimes, the narrative that you try to weave just doesn't hold much water.

>Is there anyone here who honestly thinks what the Christians did in trying to secure access t to the Holy Land was WORSE than the Morrish conquest of Turkey, North Africa, Spain, Greece, Crete, Sicily

First off, competing in genocide olympics is straight up autistic. If you have to justify the behaviour of the historical soccer team you're rooting for by pointing out that the other historical soccer team also did bad things or even worse, then you're justifying nothing at all.

Secondly, to be pedantic, Turkey, Crete, and Greece weren't conquered by "Moors"


>Black Slave true that most experts believe superseded 100 million

"Most experts" don't believe this. And quite frankly I can tell you now that whoever came up with that number just pulled it out of his ass.

>I went to a top university
>I conflate, islam, moors, arabs and everything else under the sun as one big monolithic entity.
>I break up with a girl because I disagree with her interpretation of history.


great thread OP, if only you could get(You)s

>>2237872
Bravo for this post.

>>2233326
this
>no pilgrimage from eastern india all the way to greek and praying to shrines of Durga and eventually ending at the parthenon and Athena.

What could have been.

>>2237912
Well Guru Nanak of the sikhs was close to this in that he traveled from India to Mecca to school muslims about their ways

>>2228085
There are certain groups whose goal is to rule the world.

Catholics
Muslims
Communists

When those three get together, you have the antichrist's kingdom on earth, an uneasy alliance at best, and all completely evil.

>>2229285
Absolutely true. At that time, the Slavs weren't members of the "Societas Christiana".

>>2228085
Their actions in Poland, converted Lithuania and the Republic of Novgorod were highly uncalled for and shameful.

>>2228450
we're all just joking around here. none of us take this website too seriously. if you can't handle the jokes you should probably leave.

>>2237369
*Christian semites

>>2239998
With their Christian semitic churches, ones the Greek and Latin imperialists tried to stamp out and replace with their own.

>>2237872
>"Most experts" don't believe this.
Excuse me, they do:

"... a minumum of 28 Million African were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. Since, at least, 80 percent of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave market, it is believed that the death toll from 1400 years of Arab and Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been as high as 112 Millions. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the trans-Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 Million people. -- John Allembillah Azumah, author of The Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa: A Quest for Inter-religious Dialogue"

I could go on and on. I spent a considerable time looking into this in the archives, simply because the number seemed just to big. As it turned out, about 90% died on the way to Arabia. Now, I know what you're thinking, "isn't it bad econimic practice to lose 90%of your herd?

Yes, but you have to view the trip back to arabia as both punishment (meant to ";break them in") and also an early form of artificial Darinism meant to weed out the weak.
All males who survived were then castrated for use as Harem cards. The number begins to make more sense when u realize how many they were losing on the trip, to the surgery, plus since the male negroes were fixed so there were no slaves being born, So you need a constant influx.

>>2240085
Most implies a slight majority of all relevant scholars. One or two don't qualify, and at best their numbers are highly speculative extrapolations of a handful of anecdotes that at most witnessed a few thousand slaves.

>>2237641
Not even joking, go back to pol.

>>2240085

>"... a minumum of 28 Million African were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. Since, at least, 80 percent of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died

Calculated by whom? How do they even reach that conclusion? Besides, it is very unrealistic anyhow as no merchant worth his salt would transport wares if he knew that 80% of the wares would be lost in transit. I see that you already "inb4'd" that argument, but your reasons for doing so are wrong:

>Yes, but you have to view the trip back to arabia as both punishment (meant to ";break them in")

That is nonsense on stilts. They transported them across the Saharra because it was the only viable route to take.

>All males who survived were then castrated for use as Harem cards. The number begins to make more sense when u realize how many they were losing on the trip, to the surgery, plus since the male negroes were fixed so there were no slaves being born, So you need a constant influx.

Only a small portion of Trans-Saharran slaves were ever castrated. Most of them were used as soldiers or, especially during the Abbasid reign, as plantation workers in places Southern Mesopotamia. To castrate your slaves for those jobs would be a waste of time and money. The Mamluks for example were a dynasty of basically slaves who outsourced their slavery, the large majority of whom would not be castrated. They furthermore didn't need millions of slaves just to be harem guards.

>>2240404
t. king of /his/

>>2228819
>getting your history from youtube
/his/ everybody

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>>2241649
>they watch Crash Course History with John Green the cuccck machine!

>>2228180

Daily Reminder that the first Muslims were desert niggers and the Turks were horse niggers.

The naval expansions of the Muslims were often fulfilled by Christian navies.

>>2242520
this.

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>>2228925
>>2228854
I have been following your bickering with OP and I just can't hold back anymore. You clearly have:
- no real world experience
- you've lived a sheltered existence
- you're underage
Either way... your opinions are fucking shit. Horse shit. Total fucking rubbish.
Here's some advice kiddo. Strong moral principles are a good thing and it's fucking important how history is taught and portrayed.
"Who controls the present now controls the past. Who controls the past now controls the future..."

>>2246477
Given what we know about OP he clearly is a faggot, and so are you for defending him.
>look at me I got my degree in history that means my ass is a valid source now
>lets have an unbiased discussion about how muslims are objectively ebil !
>wow you fucking cuck sandnigger mudslime you just proved me wrong how does that welfare treat you ahmad

>I actually had to end a relationship with a girl I was dating from Palestine I was seeing because she would simply not even consider the other point of view and we could not agree to disagree.

So just like you, OP ?

>>2228920

>history of a specific event in a specific region overstates that specific event and that specific region's importance

wow what a surprise

next you'll tell me the battle of tours singlehandedly kept the muslims oudda france

>>2228085
they are both shits. with an ma why do you masturbate over an historically stupid comparison.

The lack of discussion regarding Venice's role in the Crusades is abit dissapointing.

>>2228871
Seljuk turks