pike and shot

well first of all swords were never the primary weapon of war in the medieval period

>>2226438

swords were never abandoned, swords and sabres continued to be used till WW1

>>2226444
then what was? cavalry? pikes? I thought shield walls were the preferred method of fighting in formation back then

>>2226453
the shield wall was the preferred method of fighting in the early medieval period, advances in mounted warfare led to the adoption of 9 foot lances which were absolutely devastating to infantry. Eventually this was countered with the development of the pike square, which made charging effectively impossible so long as the formation held. These formations would be supported by crossbowmen or longbowmen. Though in eastern europe there was less interest in the pike square since the open terrain put it at a disadvantage of being easily outmaneuvered by cavalry.

The first major conflict that saw widespread use of firearms (other than cannons) was the Hussite war, though the guns used in that war were quite primitive. There was however rapid refinement of their design but they posed significant tactical questions, such as how to deal with cavalry charges. The Spanish were the first to come up with the idea of mixing pikemen and musketmen together to support eachother, and it was quite an effective idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cerignola

>>2226488
The spanish/french wars in Italy(1494-1553) saw the spanish reform their army with pikes and massive amounts of firearms which eventually led to the defeat of France,terminal weakening of Italian city states and dominance for the Hapsburgs in Italy.

>>2226488
>>2226538

Ah thank you, the italian wars are exactly what I was looking for

>>2226438
Gewalthaufen

>>2226446
I know musketeers were equipped with swords, but how were they used, just defensively in case the enemy gets close? were there units of swordsmen used for anything?

>>2226444
>swords were never the primary weapon of war in the medieval period
While this is true it should be considered that being a "secondary" weapon does not mean that swords were an uncommon sight or something that would always remain sheathed by its wearers side. They were probably the most common weapons on the battlefields since literally everyone carried a sword by his side - from the pikeman, to the knight on horseback to the archer or crossbowman.

And situations where the primary weapon would become useless and swords would be drawn were frequent.

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>>2226488
>The Spanish were the first to come up with the idea of mixing pikemen and musketmen together to support eachother, and it was quite an effective idea.

Swiss allready had crossbowmen and arquebusiers in support of their pikeblocks. See pic related. What the spannish did was train the tercio as a unit.

>>2226438
>When exactly did the major switch from swords to muskets happen?
Never. Formation combat was essentially reinvented again by the Swiss, they started out with halberds, then went to pike & halberd then went on to pike and shot. Swords where always used, but, apart form large battle swords, as secondary weapons.

>>2226705
>were there units of swordsmen used for anything?
Yes, Spanish rodeleros where used in pike & shot warfare, with mixed results. Other than that, large battleswords where employed to guard key points and assets in battle, like artillery positions or banners.

File: Cerignola.png (164KB, 326x820px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2227241
>In retrospect, Cerignola marks the beginning of a near invincible Spanish dominance on European battlefields until the defeat of Rocroi in 1643 and also marked the rise of pike and shot tactics. It is considered to be the first major battle won largely through the use of firearms, comparable to what was to occur in Japan seven decades later in the Battle of Nagashino in 1575.
False. Pike and shot was invented by Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, aka "the great captain" at the Italian wars.

>>2226438
The tercio, just like the meaning of the name, was 1/3 of pikes, 1/3 of muskets (arquebuses in the beginnings) and 1/3 of swordman.

>>2227267
>Pike and shot was invented
No only cohesive unit tactics with pike and shot. As mentioned, the Swiss fielded arquebuses to screen their formations long before that. Also, until the second half of the 16th century, personal firearms where simply not reliable enough to play an important part in battles.

>>2227267
>Pike and shot was invented by Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, aka "the great captain" at the Italian wars.
The Swiss he fought in that same battle also deployed with a mix of Pike and Shot, so I don't quite think you are right.

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>>2227275
Well, pikes were known before, so where handguns. Integrating that into a cohesive unit was indeed something where the Spanish where leading, but I doubt they "invented" it. Perfected it might fit better, and it happened a bit later.

>>2227249
ahh, something like a zweihander or longsword for those defences?

>>2227287
>strolling through the snow with a lit fire in your hand to shoot your gun with

Never fails to blow my mind.

Cheers to you, hardcore Swiss Arquebusier.

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>>2227355
Well, those names are a both a bit generic, when you talk about the long swords then it is best to add period and area to the description as there is, afaik, no real classification.
We also do not know that much about the use in battle, we know that the Swiss used them along with their Halberdiers for the melee combat that followed the push of the pike, we do know about the battle of Kappel and how the lost Zurich banner was retrieved (hacked free) by 3 guys with battle swords (one of those swords is preserved), we know a lot about the techniques for the long swords in the Marks brothers tradition (German 16th century fencing guild), we know about Figueiredo and his manual on the Montante. So it is bits an pieces really and by no means a complete picture on how this swords where used.
What we know for sure is that they where not used to hack away on pike formations, a myth that is often heard on this board.

>>2227441
Up until around 1550 the Arquebuse was not reliable enough to replace the crossbow on the field, so even the Swiss who had a surplus of those thanks to the Burgundians (never used and only dropped once) preferred the crossbow.
From what I heard the Arquebuse was only popular because it was comparatively light on the march and you where in a good position for the traditional plundering of the enemy camp, a thing that was very important for the Swiss at the time.

>>2227620
that makes sense, just because of the range difference

but if the formation breaks it might make sense to bust out the swords then?

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>>2227620
>>2227816

but wait this depiction clearly shows them being deployed against pikes

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>>2227816
Well, pole axes and halberds where the first choice for the melee combat, with the long battle sword a close second, maybe the cost was prohibitive here for a quality weapon, a Halberd seems more economical. However, all troops at the time had something like a sword, a short sword or a dagger type weapon as a backup.

>>2227848
No, it doesn't. Thats the battle of Kappel 1531, like many battle paintings it shows different moments (scenes) of the battle in one picture. The 3 gents with the swords are Adam Naef, Ulrich Denzler and Kleinhans Kambli, and it shows the moment they Banner of Zurich was lost and they 3 guys retrieve it by hacking trough the melee, by no means they attacked a pike square.
The battle of Kappel was a decisive one for the Swiss history and especially for Zurich, so the events of the battle where written down in great detail. Also, those 3 blokes likely received the generous rewards Zurich ever handed out, and that says a lot, even amongst the mountain jews they where renowned to be tight on the money.
http://www.zwingliana.ch/index.php/zwa/article/viewFile/2102/2012

>>2227884
>the generous
The most generous...
Also replace some they's with the. Sorry, I'm a bit in a hurry and my autocorrect is off.

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>>2227631
>Up until around 1550 the Arquebuse was not reliable enough to replace the crossbow on the field
Maybe for the swiss army, the spanish army at the time, took away most of them by 1520, just look the battle at Marignano, Sesia, Pavia or St Quintin, those were crushing victories thanks to the small firearms. By 1550 arquebuses in high numbers were a must.

>>2227272
>>2227287
Erhmmmm, nope, read about colunellas and just see the stats and reports from the italian wars. Pic related, tell me more about "personal firearms where simply not reliable enough to play an important part in battles"