>mfw people call his ideas outdated and claim the LTV fails

I really doubt modern economics is worse than marxism.

>>2220041
No, it really is.

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>>2220053

>>2220064
>entire world economy crashes due to housing bubble
>nobody saw it coming

you may come back with, "but some people did", you're right, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So before making this wild claim, I suppose you have read up on some of Keynes ideas about aggregate supply and demand?

Surely you have, he is one of the greatest economists of the 20th century.

>>2220104
Keynes is vastly superior to neoliberal economics.

>>2220104
Modern day Marxists hand wave the entirety of modern day economics as bourgeois propaganda

>>2220116
>modern day economics
>keynesian

>>2220028
Economics is too beholden to spooks, and Marxism is a pretty big spook. If economics really wants to call itself a science it has to divorce itself from political ideology.

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>>2220028
Modern economics doesn't "predict" crap, it reacts to changes fantastically though. Sudden abundance of materials? Price drops on the item. Did capitalist predict this? No they didn't. But did the market respond appropriately, allowing the material to be distributed to the population in greater amounts? Yes it did.

>>2220279
>Modern economics doesn't "predict" crap, it reacts to changes fantastically though. Sudden abundance of materials? Price drops on the item. Did capitalist predict this? No they didn't. But did the market respond appropriately, allowing the material to be distributed to the population in greater amounts? Yes it did.
That's just the market doing what it does. I'm not talking about markets, I'm talking about economics, the fucking study of these things.

>>2220339
You're acting like capitalism is meant to predict anything though. Capitalist aren't sitting in their chairs, staring at their navels and imagining what the next "stage" of their ideology is. They created a reactive system, said system will react to any new changes. That's it, nothing more to ponder.

>>2220363
So Capitalism is a system, Marxism is an ideology?

>>2220125
>these economists didn't have original ideas about shit, you must accept 100% of their doctrine set forward or disregard his entire philosophy.
Keynes theory of interest rates mirrors that of Adam Smith at the technical base.

Keynes theory of employment? Not even close.

>>2220092
>hey nobody saw it coming except the people who did but those don't count!
This is what it's like to argue with a Marxist.

>>2220372
Pretty much. Classical liberalism is an ideology, but capitalism is just a system that has no opinion on the future.

>>2220092
Everyone saw the housing bubble coming. There were those who tried to profit off of it, and those who tried to protect others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePO8NrLgXK4
Watch this video and tell me who Bernie Sanders is.

Now tell me who Ben Bernanke is.

>>2220416
They're both Jews.

Marx's ideas about human agency will become more salient in the age of mass automation and increasing calls for universal basic income.

>Let's convince poor people that freedom from inequity, exploitation and oppression is to make everyone poor, oppressed and exploited.

>religion is just a delusion to distract them from the absurdity of their enslavement.

>Everyone is poor, miserable, and forcefully United behind it now. Just a few more years comrade and communism

What economists actually had their predictions vindicated.

Michał Kalecki, Joseph Schumpeter, who else?

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>>2220028

>>2220363
Orthodox economics is all about trying to predict changes, and these predictions have real and serious consequences

Nothing is worse than Marxism, not even AIDS.

>>2220528
Correct, but that says absolutely nothing about their benevolence towards humans, clearly.

>>2220685
Why?

>>2220053
We have food.
People under Marxist rule did not.
Checkmate

>>2220704
Jews and humans don't get along very well so that explains it.

>>2220926
Russians and Chinese didn't have food before communism either

Standard of living skyrocketed in both those countries after the adoption of socialism

broken and irrelevant ideology my friend. Historical materialism now that is a great joke.

The value of goods and services is determined by what people are willing to pay for them. End of.

>>2221181
Value is not a price.

>>2221006
You're retarded man.

>>2220092
>he fell for the "no one predicted the burst of the housing bubble" maymay

>>2220109
Most New Keynesians are neoliberals nowadays

>>2221147
>Standard of living skyrocketed in both those countries after the adoption of socialism

You forgot about how tens of millions of people starved to death.

>>2220528
Turn off the memes for a second, buddy.

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>>2220028
Orthodox Economics is based on pure bullshit assumptions, the western world should embrace the teachings of the Evolutionary and Institutional schools of economics.

Well then guys, put your money where your mouth is, and use your superior whatever economic skills and make a fortune of the stock market.

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>>2220028

Best economics coming through

>>2220028
>if you're semi-intelligent and disagree with me then fuck off
This is why marxists are all retarded.
The fact of the matter is, Marx was right about everything (mostly).
Except neither he nor Engels would ever have wanted in any way to be indentified with complete and utter bullshit that is Marxism.
Marx's predictive power is being destroyed by Marxists, the fact that Marx predicted that capitalist societies were necessary for producing communism somehow escapes the communists who want to destroy capitalist societies

They should all be corporatists.
I predict that Marx's revolution will not take place in a nation but in a corporation, when the workers shall run the business and the business shall become more and more self sufficient.
For a business to become a corporation and transform in this way, it requires a capitalist society to grow in.
A corporation would grow so large it will meet the material needs of its workers, whether it be instituted by the workers themselves or the workers depose the one who first instituted it makes no difference.

Marxists are fucking idiots, all attempts to produce a communist state have been completely un-Marxist, you can't force a natural progression.
I'll never understand why Marxists shoot them selves in the foot and then blame the bourgeois, even though Marx said a bourgeois is a necessary step of opposition in the evolution of the working class.
Marxists are just dumbfuck retarded faggots who should neck themselves.
>inb4 /pol/
You know I'm right, and it bothers you I know your god better than you do.
Also, Nietzsche could be correct as well.
The bourgeois could be the last men.
In either case, destroying capitalism is anti-Marxists and completely retarded for anyone with a basic understanding of Marx

>>2220028
Marxism is pseudo economics. Real economics cannot possibly be worse than it.

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>>2223980
I actually agree with that line of thinking.

>>2221696
Socialism didn't cause that, botched agricultural techniques did.

Also, dustbowl. A lot people were fucking up agriculture at the time and crop rotation wasn't being properly practiced, including capitalist nations.

>>2221696
Just as they had starved before.

>>2224056

But far less people starved to death before

>>2223883
>Orthodox Economics is based on pure bullshit assumptions

Like what?

inb4 Orthodox economists assume perfect rationality

They don't

>>2220028

Dude, just accept it, marxism is either pseudo- or bad science from the 19th century.
That's it.

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>>2221696

>>2224137
No, unimaginably more people starved. Just not all at once, as happens in famines caused by central planning.

>>2224258
Proofs?

>>2224194
>inb4 Imperialism isn't capitalism

>>2224336
Socialist states can be imperialist too, you know

>>2224156
Let's run through the assumptions for a market with perfect competition shall we

>A large number of buyers and sellers
Okey doke

>Perfect information
Clear hogwash*

>Homogeneous products
Ridiculous

>Well defined Property rights
Pure ideology

>No barriers to entry or exit
Ok

>Every participant is a price taker
Pure ideology

>Perfect factor mobility
Garbage**

>Profit maximization of sellers

>Rational buyers
Counter to empirical evidence

>No externalities
Ridiculous**

>Zero transaction costs
Impossible**

>Non-increasing returns to scale and no network effects
"Pretend the most successful companies on earth aren't real"

*Items with asterisk are literal impossibilities that violate laws of physics, ** for thermodynamics specifically

>>2224344
Theoretically, but in practice not really. It ain't imperialism if you ain't getting paid, and I tell ya the Soviets had to spend money to keep their proxies, with the union proper having a lower standard of living than a lot of its satellites. Calling that imperialism insults imperialism,

>>2223883
>posts Thorstein Veblen
As someone who believes in God, I was obviously stricken with disbelief at some of the conclusions he was drawing. I did agree though: modern scientific thought advances as industry develops and inherently has no soul, character, and is inherently godless.

>>2224349
Mainstream economics doesn't make any of these assumptions

>>2224194
>capitalism causes droughts
why not just admit it is the devil in your religion

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>>2224515
> Stalin controls weather

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>>2224469
Can mainstream economics dodge this

Neoliberal consensus economics is a scam pushed by the corporate and academic oligarchy in order to ensure to survival of the status quo

That being said, I'd still take Friedman'peak autism over Marx

>>2220685
You don't care about workers rights, at the very least?

You can get any economic theory to work out on paper, but at the end of the day humans are greedy motherfuckers, so capitalism is the natural outcome.

>>2225726
When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called "the People's Stick".

>>2225899
So let's work toward a future where beating is unnecessary.

>>2220028
>claim the LTV fails to predict anything

It's not that it fails to predict anything, it's that it's simply wrong. Value is NOT determined by the amount of labour that went into a product, this should be obvious with just a little thought. If two men make pots, and one of them takes twice as long as the other to make an identical pot, then would you expect to pay twice as much for it? No, the pot is worth what the BUYER will pay, and nothing more.

>>2220092

Lots of people saw it coming. The reason nothing was done to prevent it was political paralysis, NOT a failure of "economics".

>>2227333

We already live in such a world, no-one beats me if I'm late to my job.

>>2221147
>Standard of living skyrocketed in both those countries after the adoption of socialism

Before in Russia. Specifically, the 1861-1914 and especially the 1880-1914 period.
Standards of living dropped massively between the 1914-1929 period.
Of course, it's mostly the wars and famines that were responsible for that but still.

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>>2220028

Both are wrong as they are way behind systems theory. Ecological economics it gtfo.
Although modern economics is worse because it is based on money which is not valued by the material reality it is used to trade, leads to extreme incongrences between the economy and the real world, like how the economy grows steadily and the world that the economy depends on is rapidly shrinking. Marxism fixes that problem but still isn't based in reality, and that still leads to problems in resource allocation, it also doesn't distribute wealth as well as market economies, but atleast Marxism doesn't lead people to believe that things are getting better and better when they are actually getting exponitailly worse.

We could have a natural law/ resource based market economy if we mutually owned the means of production and distributed them to syndicates using the scientific method to unsure sustianibility, where the product is then monetized with an objectively derived value that is based on scarcity, then to be traded in a market economy within libertarian municipalities that can also take advantage of socialism to produce post-scarcity goods and public services.
Best thing about it is it can be accomplished via anarcho-syndicalism and not by a political ""revolution"" that ends up in an authoritarian state.

>>2227369

Not that I want to defend LTV, but that's not actually how it's formulated, either in Marx or in Ricardo. You don't check on a good or a service to see how much actual labor is used, you check on the economically mainstream mode of building whatever it is.


That being said, LTV has a whole host of other problems, such as real estate evaluation, or anything in which demand rises faster than its production is increasing in efficiency: For an example, think of coal in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Coal mines got increasingly efficient, and produced more coal every year. Per whatever arbitrary unit of weight you want to use, you need less and less labor to get the coal to market. Price should go down, no? Except it didn't, because demands for power got higher and higher, and did so faster than coal could be exploited more readily.

>>2227369
I believe this started with Keynes theory of increasing output. One way to increase output is to extend bank credit, which necessarily both raises the marginal value of the next output in terms of wage units and increases the money unites represented in terms of wage units. That way, an extension of bank credit geometrically discourages buyers consumption, which is why you see the dC(N) (derivative of the consumption function) much lower than dI(N) (derivative of the net income function) at quantity point N.

>>2227517
I wouldn't waste my time, many people have not even read Ricardo here.

>>2221181
Thats is so far from the truth
Its not what the people are willing to lay for them its what the people on top what to charge for it

Every time i read some retard saying something like "b-b-b-but what if someone takes more time to produce something" i get an ulcer. Stop discussing shit you haven't read anything about.

>>2227526

If the people on top are charging more than what the consumer is willing to pay for it, then the consumers don't buy whatever it is. Then, it is very likely some competitor springs up who will provide the same good or service for less, unless there are some sort of high barriers to entry, in which case a monopoly or an oligopoly is likely to result.

On the other hand, if the people on top are charging less, well, they'll miss out on profit and will probably start charging more when they think they can get away with it.

>>2227531
>implying that consumers can/will stop buying things

>unless there are some sorts of high barriers to entrance
There always are

>>2227670
>implying that consumers can/will stop buying things


Implying they can't. Not every good is a necessity, and people who have been priced out of A will often go for an A substitute.

>There always are

Not really. It's pretty easy to start your own business, and to get funding for it if you have a good business plan.

>>2227378
You'd be fired. Then you starve to death.

>>2227531
>then the consumers don't buy whatever it is
Yeah like clothes, food, medicine, housing, water, electricity, heating...

>>2227987
in which first country would that happen in today?

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>leftists can't pick up a book so hard they actually think anything that isn't regurgitated from a hundred year old german philosowank's opus (MUUUUUHH DAS KAPITALLLL) is just "mystical voodoo shit"

lol that's why /leftypol/ never has any viable economics threads that aren't just circlejerking over Marx 24/7

PROTIP: you can't refute your opponent's arguments unless you actually read them, head up ass

>>2227987
>You'd be fired. Then you starve to death.

Only if he wouldn't find another job or would not be helped financially either by his relatives or his friends. Most people in the developed countries are not starving to death after they have been fired.

>>2228206
>conversion
Jesus, even /pol/ is less disgustingly serious about their political deathcult.

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>>2220028
End yourself

>>2227987

If I as consistently late then I could deserve to be fired. As to starving to death, we have this thing called "welfare" that makes such a thing near impossible. Now remind me again, what would happen to me in a socialist regime, if I refused to work? "No work, no food" is the party line, is it not?

>>2228225
/pol/ thinks they're doing it for the betterment of le white race.

/leftypol/ thinks they're doing it for the betterment of the WHOLE OF MANKIND. They're on a whole other scale of sheer delusion.

>>2228252

While there are certainly many white supremacists on /pol/, the dominant ideology there is civic nationalism. This model would benefit everyone, making /pol/turds at least as demented as /leftypol/cuntrags.

>>2228252
No, they're doing it for the whole of the proles. Kill porky.

>>2220221
You can say the same thing about any of the humanities

Sociology is far more intertwined with political ideology than economics.

>>2228262
>This model would benefit everyone
>making /pol/turds at least as demented as /leftypol/cuntrags.
I'm not sure if I understand you. Are you in favor or civil nationalism or against it?

>>2228288
>kill porky
don't spread their memes, even ironically. It's disgusting

>>2228310
>I'm not sure if I understand you. Are you in favor or civil nationalism or against it?

If /leftypol/ shitpipes are retarded because their ideology is utopian, so are /pol/ pissbabbys.

>>2228320
Ok, but you said
>This model would benefit everyone
Were you referring to civic nationalism or marxism?

>>2228329

According to the people who follow them, both.

>>2228342
I think our communicational shortcomings may be a problem of syntax. I will push this no further, sir

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>>2228361

I try not adopt labels of any kind, they are tremendously corruptive and the whole-sale adoption of ideological badges is at the root of much of our contemporary political foolishness.

So I don't identify with either marxism or civic nationalism, tho I reserve the right to agree with one or both on various specific policy stances.

>>2228225
Why should you take politics seriously?

>>2228262
Nationalism doesn't benefit citizens except making those who are nationalist feel good. Nationalism generally only enriches its demagogues, who almost universally lead their supporters to death and destruction.

Most nationalist movements are predicated on making others suffer. If it isn't an ethnic or social minority, it's whoever country a nationalist leader decides to invade to affirm his own strength.

>>2220028
>If you're /pol/ please fuck off
leftypol shill calling for a safe space, cute

>>2228919
>Most nationalist movements are predicated on making others suffer.
then why do you leftists want to get rid of white people?

>>2223980
There actually is a Communist Anti-Russian pro-Eu Communist party in Greece. They always talk about production sabotage and socialfascism. Their analyses are quite interesting to read.

>>2229129
we got tired of eating babies and participating in cultural conspiracies

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>>2229201
but why do you hate white people?

>>2229214
because the guy in your picture said so and i'm part of the same hivemind

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>>2229221
but why do all of you leftists want to get rid of white people?

>>2229234
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW1S4IL1iz8

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>>2229247
but why do you ""people"" hate the white race?

>>2229129
We don't you disingenuous piece of shit.

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>>2229474
not according to top leftists

>>2229129
When we say we want to abolish the white race, we do not mean we want to exterminate people with fair skin. We mean that we want to do away with the social meaning of skin color, thereby abolishing the white race as a social category. Consider this parallel: To be against royalty does not mean wanting to kill the king. It means wanting to do away with crowns, thrones, titles, and the privileges attached to them. In our view, whiteness has a lot in common with royalty: they are both social formations that carry unearned advantages.

>>2223980
>"Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence."

Marx absolutely believed that communism ought to be worked towards in an active manner.

>>2224442
The U.S. ain't getting paid for its imperial endeavors either.

>>2229560
Funny how you lefitsts never stand up for white people but you'll always stand up for black supremacists

>>2229583
Not him, but are you capable of writing a single post that isn't some caricature of the people you dislike? What a retard.

>>2229560
>we do not mean we want to exterminate people with fair skin. We mean that we want to do away with the social meaning of skin color

Yeah, nah. Maybe that's how you personally feel, maybe you're altruistic and high-minded enough, but I all-but-guarantee that feeling isn't as widespread as you appear to think it is.
And if it is, y'all need to come up with some better wording for it, cause as it stands, it is absolutely a call to genocide, and you will regret backing that many people into a corner.

>>2229588
you leftists are a caricature, the only right thing to do is to hate you "people"

>>2229601
No one said anything about genociding the white race until you started sperging in the thread. You are literally discussing with imaginary people made from /pol/tard fantasies. No one is putting you "into a corner", my poor stormbler crybaby martyr.

>>2229560
The rhetoric has now been couched in cruelty, though. We know very well what happened to Royalties when nations underwent revolutions with a similarly cruel rhetoric: not only violence and death for questionable gain, but violence and death against people who were *against* Royalty.

I don't disagree that the concept of 'whiteness' ought to be done away with; I am a leftist, although perhaps not a stringent one. Nor do I oppose the use of violence or revolution. But rhetoric based in cruelty rather than solidarity rigorously prepares its adherents for paranoia and discontent, which almost inevitably leads to gross misuse of violence and total appropriation of revolutionary movements by reactionary and extremist elements. A truly democratic revolution cannot allow itself to be bent by such a rhetoric.

>>2229601
>y'all need to come up with some better wording for it, cause as it stands, it is absolutely a call to genocide

That's intentional.

>>2229614
>not being anti white makes you a "stormbler crybaby martyr"
this is leftypol

>>2229628
Nice imaginary quote, as always.

>>2229633
that is what you said, you anti white faggot

>>2229214
>>2229234
>>2229257
>>2229538
>>2229583
>>2229609
>>2229601
Race politics is the last defense of the late stage capitalist in denial about his collapsing system.

Don't worry, we will come for you too in due time.

>>2229648
I sure i did in your brainwashed mind, stormnigger.

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>>2229654
>says the faggot who allies himself with these "people"
>>2229657
>not hating my own race make me a "stormnigger"

>>2220109
What about the fact that the recession spending doesn't seem to ever get paid off?

>>2229658
>not hating my own race make me a "stormnigger"

If you are white than yes, it does. Whiteness is a form of racial oppression. There can be no white race without the phenomenon of white supremacy.

>>2229658
>>2229786
Go back to /pol/ already, nobody is buying into your falseflag and nobody was saying anything about whites until you started shitposting.

>>2229786
I'm glad this post is satire
>>2229793
leftists were talking about getting rid of white people long before you were born, leftypol

>>2224306
Its called the History of the 20th century.

>>2229793
>>2229798

I'm serious though. Take the case of Irish immigrants in the 19th-century United States, for example. The Irish were not initially accepted as white by the dominant English-American population. Only through their own violence against free blacks and support of slavery did the Irish gain acceptance as white.

>>2220028
Have you studied economics? Where did you get your degree?

>>2229560
Whiteness is already a negation of race. Fuck off.

>>2228232
Whoever wrote that has no idea what they're talking about. Surely have never read Hegel.

>>2229862
That's a lie though. The Irish were never considered non-White.

>>2229862
>The Irish were not initially accepted as white by the dominant English-American population.
This is such a horseshit meme that refuses to die for some reason. Irish were always legally accepted as white and some silly cartoons in Harper's Weekly don't change that.

>>2229538
Bernie Sanders has done more for poor white Americans than any other politician in America

One unfortunate statement, taken out of context, does not change that

>>2220028
>worse than marxism
I mean it's far from perfect but it's not worse than marxism lol come on now

>>2220028
>n comparison to modern economics, which is up to date but still fails to predict anything

nice meme, plenty of people predicted 2008, even the fucking IMF

>>2229538
this shit passes for evidence of white genocide?

lmao

>>2232061
Capitalism is so precarious and inefficient that nothing could be done

>>2232053
>>2232064
Why do you leftists hate white people?

>>2232053
>Bernie Sanders has done more for poor white Americans than any other politician
like shilling for BLM?

>>2232072
We don't

>>2224043
the great leap forward was cuased by retarded collectivization programmes and failed industrialization plans ie communism

>>2224043
>botched agricultural techniques
Botched agricultural techniques caused by collectivization which is a core tenet of Marxism, you fucking cuck

>>2220028

If there something I love about marxists is how oblivious they often are.

I love it when they say using gwas hits to estimate the probable heritability of the black-white iq gap is pseudoscience from the 19th century and then just a second later talk about how the LTV is really great.

>>2232190
then why do you people support black supremacy?

>>2232190

Of course you do, you support policies that A) reduce the number of kids white people have and B) increase the number of non-white people in white people's lands.
You don't do that to people you like.

>>2232450
>White people decide not to have kids
>This is everyone but the white people not wanting kids fault
Okay

>>2232242

>hurr durr collectivization is bad

Without collectivization and central planning the Soviet Union would have never become an industrial powerhouse and Hitler would have won.

Sure it led to Kulak deaths, and some famines. But nothing in history is not won without casualties.

>>2232340

The LTV is not Marxist by itself.

If you have a problem with it go and take it up with Adam Smith, since he invented it, not Marx.

Marx just derived the surplus labor part from the equation of labor time.

>>2229654

>Race politics is the last defense of the late stage capitalist in denial about his collapsing system.

Pretty much, which is going to be pretty fun watching the American empire devour itself within our lifetimes.

The very people who think they are going to save the "white America" like Trumps alt-right stooges are the ones who are going to doom it in the long run.

Pretty strange that Marx and Spengler meat half way to predict the disintegration of a civilization.

>>2232475


>White people decide not to have kids

Choices aren't made in a vacuum. Policies influence people's choices. You support those policies that cause white kids to have fewer babies. You hate white people.

>>2232488

The theory of socially necessary labor has only been advanced by marxists for the last century or so. You're just murkying waters.

>>2232488
>If you have a problem with it go and take it up with Adam Smith, since he invented it, not Marx.

The LTV has no specific inventor. It's a concept that's appeared countless times, even Aristotle held a version of it.

>>2232509
>You support those policies that cause white kids to have fewer babies.
...Which policies?
I'm guessing that if it's not a racist "if you're white and have kids you get bux/tax breaks" policy you'll claim it's antiwhite.

>>2227517

The reason why coal got more expensive was because of higher demand caused by the Industrial revolution.

Plus less labor due to automation does not mean necessarily the diminishing of labor value. In fact Marx explicitly said that automation cheapens wages, not the exchange value of a product. They are two entirely different things.

In fact it is inaccurate to say that coal "got more expensive" since by the end of the 19th century the coal age was over for machinery and diesel engines replaced coal consuming machinery. Coal also was daily to heat houses, power factories etc. It never became more expensive by being a luxury item, but only due to widespread demand and transportation costs.

>>2232518

That's what I said, the surplus labor part derives from the socially necessary labor premise, which Adam Smith advanced.

Only retarded Austrian school snake oil salesmen and lolbertarians refuse to accept it like the conmen and dogmatists they are.

>>2221687
This doesn't make sense.

>>2232530

>...Which policies?

Are you going to play dumb for the rest of this discussion?

>>2232575

Accept what? Orthodox economists don't accept the LTV.

>>2232634
I can pretend I have an argument and when you don't know what the fuck I'm talking about call you out as playing dumb too.

>>2232552
>The reason why coal got more expensive was because of higher demand caused by the Industrial revolution.


>or anything in which demand rises faster than its production is increasing in efficiency

>
In fact it is inaccurate to say that coal "got more expensive" since by the end of the 19th century the coal age was over for machinery and diesel engines replaced coal consuming machinery.

> For an example, think of coal in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

Can you read?

>>2232647

Who cares?

>>2232552
>In fact it is inaccurate to say that coal "got more expensive" since by the end of the 19th century the coal age was over for machinery and diesel engines replaced coal consuming machinery.

>1893: August 10, Diesel built his first prototype in Augsburg, This engine never ran under its own power.
>1894 Diesel's second prototype runs for the first time.
>1895 Diesel applies for a second patent US Patent # 608845

>The world’s first diesel-powered locomotive was operated in the summer of 1912 on the Winterthur-Romanshorn Railroad in Switzerland, but was not a commercial success ... After the First World War broke out in 1914, all further trials were stopped ... Small numbers of prototype diesel locomotives were produced in a number of countries through the mid-1920s.

>The archetype of the modern form of the two-stroke diesel is the (high-speed) Detroit Diesel Series 71 engine, designed by Charles F. "Boss" Kettering and his colleagues at General Motors Corporation in 1938

That would be a no. Inventions took a lot longer to diffuse back in the day. Five years from patent to prevalence was not a thing.

>>2232649

yes which is why I pointed out you made a mistake concerning coal disproving the LTV. It does not, rising costs and wages lessening due to automation are two different things.

>>2232705

Split hairs all you want.

My point is sufficiently clear, rising cost of coal had to do with exchange value demand and transportation cost. Also coal is much harder to extract than oil.

>>2232705

Point is oil and diesel replaced coal when coal was already a household item for heating, cooking etc. And is used to this day for old stoves or fireplaces etc.

>>2232637

Orthodox economics are a buzzword.

Orthodox according to whom? Keynesians? Neo-Ricardians? Austrian school?

The game is up, and the emperor has no clothes.

>All this bitching about the LTV

Has anyone here read Mutualist Political Economy by Kevin Carson? What'd you think of his attempt to address or incorporate marginalist critiques into the LTV?

>>2232419
We don't

>>2232450
Are you actually retarded?

Liberals, not socialists, are responsible for the rising cost of child-rearing and freer migration.

>>2233978
>says this when leftypol openly donated to BLM

>>2234009
Leftypol as a community isn't fond of BLM. They're just moderate liberals and aren't critical of capitalism.

BLM isn't a black supremacist organization, either.

>>2234053
>BLM isn't a black supremacist organization, either.
wanna guess how I know you are an SJW?

>>2234070
Prove that BLM advocates black supremacy

>>2234335
http://www.cleveland19.com/story/32814897/men-chant-black-lives-matter-before-viciously-attacking-white-victims
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/264277/black-lives-matter-racists-attack-white-people-try-daniel-greenfield
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3802230/War-zone-Charlotte-White-man-begs-mercy-beaten-reporter-nearly-dragged-fire-rioters-people-told-stay-home-work-police-shooting-black-father.html
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/09/22/black-lives-matter-protest-stockton-attacks-white-bystanders/

but I guess you think their actions are okay because they aren't "alt reich", right?

>>2220028
Mises subjective value theory

>>2234502
Attacking white people isn't black supremacy if it comes from an inferiority complex. Is it racism? Yeah, sure. Is it black supremacy? No.

>>2234524
>the leftypol faggot is actually defending black supremacists this much
why do you people hate whites so much?

>>2234531
I'm Asian master race. As far as I'm concerned white people brought this on themselves. You should have just left them in Africa.

>>2234502
None of those incidents have anything to do with the organization Black Lives Matter. They also don't seem to constitute black supremacy.

I repeat... >>2234335

>>2234560
Black Supremacy is a joke, because Black People are incapable, among many things of being superior

>>2234531
You're such a disingenuous shitstain. The left isn't anti white and the left doesn't support black supremacists.

Not only is Black Lives Matter not a black supremacist organization, they aren't really connected to the American left. Most socialists are skeptical of their activities due to their corporate ties and lack of radical ideology.

>>2234572
>Most socialists are skeptical of their activities due to their corporate ties and lack of radical ideology.

hmmm
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/01/16/Sanders-endorsed-by-Black-Lives-Matter-activist/7361452980696/

>>2234572
>The left isn't anti white and the left doesn't support black supremacists.
desu

a lot of "liberals" cringe at Malcolm X and praise MLK as the politically correct civil rights guy

The Left has a hatred for the accomplishments of Western Civilization

>>2234578
>Sanders
>socialist
>radical

>>2234578
No shit they like Bernie, he's the only candidate who listened to them.

Hillary tried to use BLM as a club to weaken Sanders' minority support, but by the end of his campaign he'd amassed a majority of the under-35 black vote. It's no coincidence that his popularity started rising after his engagement with Black Lives Matter.

>>2234598
yet you leftists think its immoral for trump to utilize the lesser radicalized white under 35 vote (the "alt-right" in leftypol nuspeak)

>>2234589
nope

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>>2220926

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I am a White Man

I am the light of civilization

why would i purposely lower my being to that of a Jew like Marx,

a man who wanted nothing but the destruction of White, Christian Europe

SCREW THAT, FUCK MARX, FUCK THE LEFT


DEUS VULT

>>2234589
Pretty much the opposite. The left is the descendant of the enlightenment, while the right makes up conspiracy theories to try to explain the course of western civilization.

>>2234617
The Enlightenment was nothing but the destruction of Christian Europe....our birthright


Christianity is what made Europe a powerhouse.....

>>2232875
Boom this. So much this in every economics thread.

>>2234619
t. cryptojew

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For example lets talk about The Left's disastrous effects on architecture and art


We went from this...The beautiful magnum opus of Christian art. A Tour de Force in artistic and architectural might


what did the Left give us, nothing but modern minimalist/brutalist crap


Why don't we make stuff like this anymore? huh...

>>2234607
"Alt-right" was coined by Richard Spencer, one of your guys. If you don't like the term, that's on you.

Courting far-right youth is absolutely different from courting black activist youth because far-right types are driven by the desire to oppress others. Black Lives Matter, no matter what you think of them, are fighting for social equality.

You've failed to provide any evidence for Black Lives Matter being a supremacist organization, so the distinction should be clear. By contrast, many alt-right figures like Richard Spencer and Lauren Southern are expressly bigoted. Even soft alt-right characters like Milo are odious. His use of stereotypical black dialect in fake Leslie Jones tweets was plainly racist.

>>2234613
What about the Jews in that painting?

>>2234619
Eh, Southern Europe was pretty fucking powerful before the arrival of Christianity

>>2234661
but the only reason we had a scientific revolution was the Church....despite what you might of heard about the so called Galileo affair, the church played a huge role in science

>>2234647
There are people that actually believe white genocide is a thing though and Muslim hordes exist to terrorize them

>>2234643
Why don't you try architecturing your posts in a non retarded way while you're at it?

>>2234686
why dont we make stuff like that anymore, answer the question

>>2234647
> far-right types are driven by the desire to oppress others.
only because you leftists and BLM are actively trying to get rid of us white people

>>2234686
Judging by his syntax and content he's probably Latin American

>>2234697
>>2234682

>>2234682
yeah those "people" aren't ashamed of being white and don't worship black supremacy unlike you

>>2234704
>REE WHY DON'T YOU HATE YOUR OWN RACE!
you SJWs are disgusting

>>2234682
Yeah because its not like literally 98.999999 percent of terrorist attacks today are of Islamic origin....

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>>2234693

time, aesthetics, engineering all change; we could make a million st peters, but why would we?

there is a very real beauty in speed, focus and function

plus, there were very real constraints the architects of their time had to work with, they pushed the limits and made something great because of it. Now we're doing the same.

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>>2234647
>>2234682
>these posts

>>2234693
Mmmm let me guess what the /pol/tard is hinting at. Oh, i know! Is there a spooky jewish conspiracy suppressing the demand of renaissance style buildings by any chance?

>>2234731
>still got more votes than you
>muh states rights

>>2234713
>>2234731
Not those people, but i truly don't understand stormniggers. If you are going to make imaginary quotes and pretend people argued shit they didn't argue, what's the point in interacting with others? You might as well talk to a wall.

>>2234727
yes being mean to muslims in your country will definitely not make muslims outside of your country hate you

>>2234737
>>2234743

Why do you leftists want to celebrate black supremacy while at the same attack white people for not hating their own race?

>>2234743
>talk to a wall
That's why they're on 4chan

>>2234748
Exactly what i meant. You are discussing with yourself without engaging others at any point. You might have some sort of mental illness.

>>2234748
Why do you anti-semites celebrate one of the most Jew-banker and Israel friendly presidents ever?

>>2234759

>inb4 not my president

>>2234747
>we should treat muslims great
>but fuck those white people who are against white guilt #hillary2016!
>>2234756
>says the guy who thinks anyone who doesn't hate white people is a "stormnigger"
you SJWs are pathetic

>>2234759
why did you anti white leftists vote for hillary clinton?

>>2220028
Whats you point about Marxism?

>>2234767
Keep the imaginary quotes coming, m8, you'll beat that spooky made up leftist someday.

>>2234782
are you pro white pride?

>>2234786
No.
Trying to engage what others actually think instead of meme imaginary people is a good first step anon, good for you.

>>2227677
>Not really. It's pretty easy to start your own business

depends on what industry.

>>2234794
why soul I respect you SJWs when you actually want to get rid of white people?

>>2234804
Ahhhh, so close. Back to meme imaginary people.

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>>2234811
Why do leftists hate white people?

>>2220416
Last I checked Bernie magically purchased a new summer home after dropping out of the race and endorsing Hillary. Surely he plans to give this new house away to one of his voters, because you know, "who needs more then one house!"

>>2234824
they're the kulak race. we will never achieve equity if white people exist.

>>2234771
I dislike Israel and Jew bankers more than I like white people. And Shillary was still too Jew banker friendly for my tastes, but compared to literally point the Goldman-Sachs jew for cabinet and tax cuts for the rich Trump. Also I has hoping she'd continue pissing off Israel like Obama. JIDF really has taken over /pol/

>>2234697
Repeating a lie a hundred times won't make it any truer

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>>2234861
>leftists hating white people is a lie

>>2234731
If race was why the Democrats lost, Obama should have beaten by McCain and Romney in a landslide

Trump skirted to victory because Hillary was a shit campaigner who couldn't relinquish her ties to Wall Street.

>>2234868
>leftypol is still defending thier democrat masters
hahaha

>>2234771
Leftists didn't really vote for Hillary. Most hard left types never even considered it, given how right-wing she is.

They were one of the groups she alienated, alongside young minorities and working class whites

>>2234877
and you leftists alienated white people because you say you want to kill them

>>2234884
well, white people deserve it quite frankly

it's not the left's fault that they are inherently privileged, and need to be abolished for equality to flourish

>>2234888
you're gonna worsen his autism and /his/ will suffer for it man

>>2234884
nope

>>2234888
gay false flagging

>>2234895
>using gay as an insult
its like literally 2017 man

>>2234895
>>2234890
i'm not false flagging, it's just that whiteness is problematic

>>2234923
You're arguing in bad faith to forward a /pol/ agenda

>>2232577

It does, actually. You just have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

>>2234923
>meme use of problematic
look, one has to immerse oneself in a character in order to convincingly play the part
you've only looked at memes.

>>2234923
>isn't this psyop epic?? XD

The crowd you've fallen in with are manipulating you and when your parents find out what you do online they'll take the computer away.

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>>2221147
>Russians and Chinese didn't have food before communism either
Looking at the last few decades of a millennia old civilization before the communist revolutions is not representative of the agricultural productivity of the its entire history/political rule. Ever notice how revolutions tend to occur during famines?

>>2235192
His is right you know. Whiteness is an identity that arises entirely out of racial oppression.