Explain why Communism failed in 10 words or less.

Perfect

Because Marx was a idiot and Lenin was a sociopath.

>>2175765
Marx based his theories on pre Darwinian Anthropology.

3/4 of the world declared war on it

It didn't.

>>2175780
lmao

Equality is impossible.

>>2175765
Sorry man, but, you see, that was not real Communism

>>2175811
we didn't even make it 10 posts in

>Communism means 100% of the means of production are in the hands of the state.
Communism failed because its goal is impossible to achieve.

>>2175765
Uneducated impoverished farmers don't know theory and politburo took over.

Because it makes literally zero sense in practice.

The only good thing to come out of socialism is the fight for workers rights, but that's about it.

>>2175765
Fundamentally flawed view of Human Nature, also because 'Murica.

>>2175831
>The only good thing about socialism is the part about socialism
What did he mean by this?

Economic calculation is impossible

The revolutions came too early, in the wrong countries and were made by dictatorial opportunists.

>>2175837
Workers rights is just one aspect of socialism ya dingbat, unless you're memeing and implying workers don't have rights unless they seize the memes of pooduction.

>>2175765
"Special circumstances mean we don't need to listen to Marx."

>>2175849
Marx ruined communism

>>2175765
economy sucked

>>2175765
It didn't man, that wasn't even socialism, it was state capitalism.

Slavs.

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>>2176043

>>2175765
Working class failed to develop class consciousness + impossible to implement

>>2175765

Human beings naturally want to get an edge on eachother.

>>2175765
Contextual reasons often dismissed by turbo reductionist clueless millennials online.

>>2175765
aklways bad leaders

>>2176046
>East Germans
>Hungarians
>Romanians
>Estonians
>Lithuanians
>Latvians
>Chinese
>Cambodians
>Cubans
>Koreans

Do all of those magically become Slavs to fit your argument?

I can do it in 4 "it was a spook".

>>2175765
muh solidarity

Communism failed, Stalinism worked perfectly, but capitalism's what people want.

very few feedback mechanisms for realizing terrible decisions

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>>2175818
Communism means there is no state

>>2176351
>live in communist country
>no one wants to clean the toilets
>need someone to clean the toilets
>have to use force
>need something to regulate and organize said force
>government is formed

>>2176359
You never argued with communists before? They'll say it's not government if you don't call it a government. Truly the same doublethink retardation that plagues the ancaps too.

>>2176359
Why would someone not want to clean toilets

>>2176364
Do you want to be a plumber anon?

>>2176364
>Polish_philosopher.jpg

>>2176367
Not him, but plumber isn't the guy who goes around scrubbing toilets, it's actually a pretty demanding and well paid job.

>>2176367
Can't be any worse than drywalling. I mean, there's heating.

Workers and rich people play tug of war for food.

>>2176382
Fuck off Marx.

>>2176359
>>2176363

The literal definition of the word is "a stateless, moneyless, classless society."

Good god you people are retarded.

>>2176385
How am I retarded? I'm >>2176363 by the way. Explain yourself or fuck off.

>>2175765
Liberal economists are literally always right, but always get ignored.

>>2176385
>>2175765
>Lets create a society of classless communes by centralizing all economic and political power into the hands of unaccountable bureaucrats.

What could possibly go wrong?

>>2176385
We're not arguing the definition, we're arguing that it's impossible.

>>2176392
The eschatology established probably by the early SPD theorists, though existing in a rudimentary form in Marx, is that Communism is a particular stage of historical development. Between capitalism and communism, you'd have socialism in various stages of construction or de-construction, as one preferred. There's no roadmap or anything, everyone has used different terms to describe what they figured whatever stage of semi-capitalism or socialist-marketeering they figured they or some other society was at. For instance, under Lenin's NEP, the system was official described as "state capitalism." this is a bit different from the state capitalism term used by certain british trotskyists, in that it was pretty legit capitalism, at least by soviet standards. As a more modern example, Vietnam currently calls their economic system a socialist-oriented market economy, which is conceived as a stage between capitalism and socialism. It's uh, socialist-oriented.
It's a bit silly and dumb and wholly political. But hey, that don't make you any less wrong and unable to realize one of the most important facets of the ideology you're trying to shit talk.

>>2175765
Humans pursue their immediate self-interest due to tribalism. ALWAYS.

>>2176422
No, I already knew all of this. Of course communism is SUPPOSED to be a society without government, point me where I contested that notion.

The problem is such a thing is literally impossible in a post-agricultural civilization, since it always reverts back to a government structure. I've had a debate with an anarcho-communist the other day on this very board, and his vision for organizing society was basically a direct democracy where everyone votes on everything and then some kind of militia or a police force exists to enforce said decisions. And in his mind this doesn't constitute a government somehow. Marxists and ancaps do the exact same thing.

History is neither dialectical nor material.

>>2176043
>>2176053

notice how when you point this out, there is no attempt at refutation, just memes.

>>2176438
State capitalism is logical nonsense. If the means of production aren't in private hands, it cannot be capitalism.

No strong incentives, too many economic variables to centrally manage

>>2176441
this is really just semantics. i'm not sure who gave it the name "state capitalism". It's a misleading moniker, to be sure. However, that doesn't change the fact that the USSR wasn't communism. It's just totalitarian control over everything with no individual property rights.

>>2175765
Because it's not anarcho-syndicalism

>>2175765
Germans ruin everything, dictatorships are bad, everyone skipped a chapter

>>2176433
It matters not if it's literally impossible. For its practitioners, it was socialism of some sort, sometimes towards communism and sometimes not, and we do ourselves a disservice by forgetting the historical use of terms.
This is /his/, have some fucking rigour.

>>2176441
Do you mean "state capitalism" as per Cliff, or as per Lenin?

>>2175765
We don't live in a flawless world

Grandfather Moon, Grandfather Moon, where is your home?

>>2176046

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>2175841
This is actually a fairly minor issue compared to all the other problems with communism. Austrians trumpet the calculation problem because they're retarded and can only parrot Mises and Rothbard

>>2176351

oh so it's physically impossible. okay.

>>2176385

>my retarded utopian meme is perfect in my head god why cant you idiots realize this!

>MOM! When are the hotpockets going to be done!?

>>2175811
You know this meme is pretty tired.

Communism can mean both communism the system and communism the ideology. Therefore when I say "communist Poland" I don't mean that Poland had communism, but that Poland was ruled by people who believed in the communist ideology.

[COLPASE]

>>2176619

communism isnt real communism

>>2176637
It's like homonyms exist or something and one word can have several meanings.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/communism

>>2176652
If it fails it isn't communism, because by design communism is supposed to be perfect, therefore.

>>2175765
Marx was wrong on almost everything in Das Kapitel.

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[COLLAPSE]
[COLAPSE]
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[CLAPS]

>>2175765
capitalism provides luxury and distraction

>>2176661
Such as?

>>2175765
Capitalism would have failed without socialist policies.
>>2176351
It means the state is unnecessary and therefore will naturally disappear, which is kind of like a sci-fi idea: that the workers will create paradise through technology designed to reduce their labor that, unlike under capitalism, actually reduces the amount of labor they have to preform instead of leaving it the same.

>>2176723
The LTV is the main one and it being wrong negates concepts like "surplus value", capitalist exploitation, and the eventual downfall of capitalism.

>>2176374
>it's actually a pretty demanding and well paid job
not under communism :^)

>>2176748
and what is wrong with it

It didn't, Leninism and Bolshevism did. Workers didn't control anything.

Sentralized power without third party side is a fuckin mistake

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>>2176776

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>>2176776
This (kinda busy to explain myself rn

>>2175765
China, USSR, Middle America and Korea going full retard nonstop.

>>2176285
>no Yugoslavia

>>2176359
Compare it to household chores. Nobody wanted trash or washing-up building up, so when I was house-sharing at college we devised a rota so that the we shared the responsibilities fairly evenly. It's a shitty situation but the cleaning has to be done - therefore people will organise and do it.

>>2176393
>implying 2008 wasn't a result of an extreme lack of regulation
>implying neoliberalism isn't rampant

>>2176404
All you've done is demonstrate (correctly) that the Leninist approach is retarded.

>>2176430
Exactly and it is in the self-interest of the rich to keep dominating the poor, and it's in the self-interest of the poor to overhaul the class system, this is why leftist ideology exploded in the mid 1800s.

>>2176433
That ancom is retarded: trying to decide what the society should exactly be like is akin to Stalinism, Islamism, Nazism and other fascist -isms. The people in the future should decide at the time. Communism should be argued on economic principle, not political detail.

>>2176441
>workers own nothing
>state owns everything
>somehow this is socialism

In Leninism, the government becomes the bourgeoisie.

In socialism everyone owns their own homes and workplaces. No fucker rents your house or owns your factory, getting money for nothing (much like the image they spread of people on welfare.)

>>2176452
>at home, dishes aren't done
>need incentive to do dishes
>the reward of eating on clean plates isn't enough because muh human nature
>implying people would rather not work and nothing be done than work and reap rewards if things being done

>>2176815
>implying 2008 wasn't a result of an extreme lack of regulation
Well yes and no. Look up the HCDA from '92:

>This legislation established an "affordable housing" loan purchase mandate for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and that mandate was to be regulated by HUD. Initially, the 1992 legislation required that 30% or more of Fannie's and Freddie's loan purchases be related to "affordable housing" (borrowers who were below normal lending standards). However, HUD was given the power to set future requirements, and HUD soon increased the mandates. This encouraged "subprime" mortgages.

This was a big deal because it allowed for shitty borrowers to get an easy access to loans and the foreclosure rate in 2006 absolutely skullfucked housing prices which led to the recession.

Then you obviously also have cases like repealing Glass Steagall but you cannot just outright say the only problem was the lack of regulation.

>>2176835
In candylandism, everyone prospers because candy grows on trees

Everyone is starving under the not-real-candylandism?

Those corrupt morons forgot the candy trees!

>>2175765
>I'm from the government and I'm here to help

>>2176046
>spanish
>germans

>>2176847
>ignoring that Wall Street's malpractices
>making shitty loans to poor people and sold those shitty loans
>"When the music keeps playing, you have to keep dancing"
The USA government might be incompetent but Wall Street was borderline malicious for 08

>>2176849
>Here are the concepts central toa new form of government
>Okay sounds good, i'm going to ignore the vast majority of them.
>hey wait what the fuck that's not what i suggested
Name the core tenants of comunism and tell me with a straight face that it's been tried.

>>2176863
Wall Street has been malicious for its entire existence. But this shit can be directly traced to HCDA which was an idiotic government legislation.

>>2176873
There has never in history been a stateless, classless, moneyless society, and every attempt has been either hijacked by the bourgeoisie (1799 and 1917 for example) or the capitalists mobilised and killed them (1871 and 1919 for example.)

Communism hasn't been tried, but we have tried to try it many many times.

>>2176888
>stateless, classless, moneyless society
Pol Pot's Cambodia.

>>2176892
>dictatorships can be anarchist

>>2176874
I don't disagree it was flawed. This legislation was done with good intentions of trying to make the middle class homeowners. It is Wall Street that turned a mistake into a crime. It is like you are blaming the forest for the fire instead of the arsonist

>>2176888
why don't you retards just pitch a patreon fund and buy a private island to circlejerk on

oh wait you can't because communism is in fact just an excuse to commit violence against capitalists to be the le edgy fuck society peasants you are on the inside like the anarchkiddies

and then you come here and try to spread your bullshit 19th century """"theories""""" here

>>2176897
Dictatorship of the proletariat.

>>2176905
If trolling, good job. If not, you are retarded.

"Communism is an excuse to commit violence" nice irony, bud. I agree that Bolshevism is, because of its idea of doing an action for the sake of historical necessity, therefore you have no responsibility for Stalinist victims. The same goes for capitalists willing to sacrifice millions of people and even the environment just so capital can flow. Any kind of political 'theism' is cancer.

>>2176909
>implying Pol Pot ran one

>>2176873
I used the analogy of candy trees because Marxist economic theory is a beaten dead horse that is seen as obsolete in the eyes of modern economic acedemea and political theory.

I can't name name a core tenant of communism that has been tried in the same way you can't name a candy tree that has been planted.

You want me to give you an abridge version of communism?

>Marx believed labor was the root of all value
>Marx believed that a business's profit was a form of theft he called "surplus value"
>Marx believed this would cause a proletariat revolution
>Marx believed that the workers would form an economic system that would reward workers accordingly with their labor
>Marx believed this would eventually turn into a stateless and moneyless fantasy land

Marx's theories are now seen as obsolete as Adam Smith and feudalism

>>2176932
Of course he did.

>abolished money and wage labor
>enforced closed communes
>massacred the bourgeoisie

He was the mist communist leader to ever exist

>>2176863
>Wall Street was borderline malicious for 08
They still are

>>2176946
A proletarian dictatorship is by definition not a concentration of power into one chap's hands. He abolished the wage system but he is no better than those Latin American faggots who also hijacked the cause. He massacred anyone and everyone who got in his way, without fully defining his way.

>>2176945
>let me tell you some of Marx's ideas
>now let me casually add that I think they are disregarded today
>i.e. let me ignore modern trade unions, 8 hour workday, 5 day work week, paid leave, European healthcare and higher education, etc.
>let me ignore the rising populist left in the West that neoliberal """""leftists""""" are still trying hard to suppress, leading to Trump and Brexit

>>2176863
I bet the banks would have gotten criticised by leftists for not being so demanding on poor people for loans

>>2176979
>>let me tell you some of Marx's ideas
>now let me casually add that I think they are disregarded today
>i.e. let me ignore modern trade unions, 8 hour workday, 5 day work week, paid leave, European healthcare and higher education, etc.
>let me ignore the rising populist left in the West that neoliberal """""leftists""""" are still trying hard to suppress, leading to Trump and Brexit
No him, but what's your point

>>2176983
Marx isn't disregarded today, his ideas are pretty much part of the core of modern economics, even in the West.

Interestingly, the most hardcore anticommies come to the same conclusions as Marx (e.g. Kissinger.)

>>2176979
Those things were pushed by social democrats. Marx hated them by the way and I really fucking hate when deadbeat shitty Marxists are trying to take credit for other people's accomplishments.

>>2176979
None of the things you've listed are inherently part of Marx's economic theory and are now part of western capitalism.

>masses of idiots keeping Marxism on life support are going to start a massive proletariat revolution but are being haulted by SJW suppression

I'm shaking in my boots

>>2177000
>>2177001
Who is taking credit for anything, bro? Marxian economics directly influenced socdem. Just as it influenced Trotskyism. I am a left-Communist and despise both socdem and thotskyism.

>>2176982
>Make loans with poor people you knew were shitty coz you just didn't care
All of criticism to be made for the banks, they could have at least not forsake long term goals for short term gains. Make no mistake, some people knew 08 was coming, but the industry will not listen to them.

Good things last the shortest

>>2177011
If you hate the tenants of sodden, Then why are you parading them as Marxist ideals.

You even said earlier
>Name the core tenants of comunism and tell me with a straight face that it's been tried.

What point were you trying to make when you listed them?
They are obviously just roadblocks in the actual path towards what you consider to be "true communism"

>>2177023
Socdem*

>>2177011
It could have easily existed without him or similar people.

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>>2177011
>being this sectarian

>>2175765
Doesn't scale up.

>>2176359
>communist society
>toilets need to be cleaned
>workers decide to form rotating shift in their workplace
>toilets are cleaned without one person/small group having to denigrate themselves with this unpleasant task permanently

>>2177047
>after a few days, a worker realizes he doesn't like cleaning poo
>starts slacking off, after a while stops doing his shift altogether while still taking from the commune
>no way to punish him without organized enforcement

>>2177051
Commune can just not give him stuff or let him use their stuff you know

>>2177023
Socdem was influenced by Marxism, I didn't say it was Marxist. I stand by my conclusion that Marxism continues to influence modern economics.

>>2177038
Pic related

>>2177051
There is a selection pressure against this since the work doesn't get done and that is punishment itself. If he is cleaning the toilet once a month (equal to everyone) for instance, then how would he have a tantrum and say "NO THIS IS TOO MUCH :("

It isn't his full time job, and he is in the same boat as everyone else. No problem whatsoever. Your solution is to force (through economic circumstance) somebody to full time work a job that should be shared amongst everyone in the building.

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>>2177080
Forgot pic

>>2175765

autistic party leadership fucked it all up.

>>2177013
they didn't know they were shitty you fucking faggot. They thought they were minimising risk

Because it wasn't real communism, like my dreams

>>2176999
> his ideas are pretty much part of the core of modern economics

HHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
*breaths*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

>"Despite the massive intellectual feat that Marx's Capital represents, the Marxian contribution to economics can be readily summarized as virtually zero. Professional economics as it exists today reflects no indication that Karl Marx ever existed. This neither denies nor denigrates Capital as an intellectual achievement, and perhaps in its way the culmination of classical economics. But the development of modern economics had simply ignored Marx. Even economists who are Marxists typically utilize a set of analytical tools to which Marx contributed nothing, and have recourse to Marx only for ideological, political, or historical purposes." -Thomas Sowell

"Marx was an important and influential thinker, and Marxism has been a doctrine with intellectual and practical influence. The fact is, however, that most serious English-speaking economists regard Marxist economics as an irrelevant dead end"
-Robert Solow

"Economists working in the Marxian-Sraffian tradition represent a small minority of modern economists, and that their writings have virtually no impact upon the professional work of most economists in major English-language universities"
-George Stigler

>>2177080
Marxism influences socdem like Adam Smith influenced Marxism

Sharing the same vague premise does not equate to having the same direction on said viewpoint.
Even then, Marxism's "influence" on modern socdem is so superficial and misguided that it's laughable to link the two in today's setting.

>>2176835
your response about incentives is pretty dumb

>>2175765
Infringement on natural property rights

>>2177090
>pressuring credit analyst to give it good ratings
They were well aware

>>2177080
>Socdem was influenced by Marxism
No, a strain of socdem already existed during Marx's times and he hated them for not being edgy enough. They just wanted certain workers' rights, but Marx didn't care about that shit, saw it as a form of collaboration and only demanded full revolution. He can get fucked, social democracy helped more people out of poverty than any Marxist regime in history.

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>>2177080
>>2177081
>fragmenting the left this hard
Worse than the liberals desu

>>2175765
Matter can not be created or destroyed.

>>2177117
Tories +14

>>2177124
>demonized by mass media from the get go
>Poor poll ratings
>"See? Told you he was unelectable!"
>https://www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/pdf/JeremyCorbyn/Cobyn-Report-FINAL.pdf

>>2177131
>demonized by mass media from the get go
ITS THE ESTABRISHMENT!@2!!!111!!1 Fucking Right Wing Tory Neoliberal establishment press. Why can't they see that Jezza is perfect :::((((((((((((

>>2177093
This is what I've been trying to say.

Marx's theories are to economic acedemea what Phrenology is to modern psychology

>>2177131
>As" media" and" communication" scholars" we" have" been" troubled" by" the" problematic" way" in"
which" the" British"media" has" systematically"attacked" Jeremy" Corbyn"ever" since" he" came" to"
national"prominence"in" the" summer"of"2015
"As left wing labour members.."

>>2177131
>Corbyn"was"often"denied"his"ownvoice"in"the"reporting"on"him"and"sources"that"were"anti8Corbyn"tended"to"outweigh"those"that"support"him"and"his" positions."

>The media is supposed to treat a retard seriously
I'd love to know their thoughts on Trump

Could've guessed a thread about communism is packed to the brim with stinky, smelly Anglocucks.

I bet that one retard from Northern Ireland who was shocked upon discovering he lives in a hellhole is also here.

>>2177138
>didn't at least read the conclusion of the pdf
Jezza isn't perfect, but you cannot deny the biasness against him. That PMQ where he flubbed the name of an organization was really evident

>>2175765
>Explain why Communism failed in 10 words or less.

The rest of the world united to stop it.

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>>2176781
>>2176835
>>2176932
>>2177011

While all the crumb-lickers on the left are busy finding out whose shit smells the best, capitalist countries are off creating wealth, eliminating poverty, and driving humanity towards prosperity.

Have fun living in delusion. History will soon see you as we see creationists, geocentrists, and flat-earth fags.

>>2177093
It's more classical economics in general that's an intellectual dead end rather than Marxism specifically.

>>2177189
It already does. I don't even like capitalism, but I see the communists as basically a shitty byproduct of capitalism, a bunch of retards who wanted to show the world how they're gonna do it better only to slip and plant their face in dog shit.

>>2177194
(Different anon but I've made the same point)
That's why I referenced Adam Smith as also being outdated.

>>2177189
>History will soon see you as we see creationists, geocentrists, and flat-earth fags.

Let's be honest, outside of LARPing on 4chan and skeletonchan, this is already reality.

"Communism is a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilization." - Vladimir Putin

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Economic calculation problem

Of course I don't expect autistic 16 year old brainwashed /lit/cucks and 400 pound commie redditors to understand complex economic concepts but whatever.

>>2177204
Do you expect autistic /pol/cucks to understand complex political concepts like 3/4 of the world declaring economic and political embargo on you and forcing you into an arms race to defend your existence?

>>2177204
The ECP is a big part of why communism (it applies to all non-market economies btw) is a failure
But there's way more wrong with it than that kek

>>2177206
>other countries refuse to trade with the USSR
>USSR reacts by preventing other countries from trading with the west out of butthurt
Commie logic.

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>>2177206

Not an argument you cretin. A few years after WW2 socialist countries controlled most of the Northern Hemisphere and a very large chunk of humanity. Competition and struggle with capitalist countries was expected and socialism was supposed to prevail since it was "inevitable".

>>2175765
>>>2176441
>>workers own nothing
>>state owns everything
>>somehow this is socialism
>
>In Leninism, the government becomes the bourgeoisie.
>
>In socialism everyone owns their own homes and workplaces. No fucker rents your house or owns your factory, getting money for nothing (much like the image they spread of people on welfare.)
>
>>>2176452
>>at home, dishes aren't done
>>need incentive to do dishes
>>the reward of eating on clean plates isn't enough because muh human nature
>>implying people would rather not work and nothing be done than work and reap rewards if things being done


But there is a clear incentive for doing the dishes for yourself as you get clean plates. However, for a factory that exists because of a political decision that produces things according to the wishes of a committee that can't process information based on supply and demand as fast as price mechanism (assuming it even wanted to), increased marginal effort is unlikely to produce increased marginal benefit.

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>>2177206
Look at all these small insignificant countries that just couldn't manage under the stress of competition.

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>>2177212

Yeah the ECP explains why socialism was such a monumental failure economically and why it failed to outproduce capitalism like it was supposed to.

But of course the failure of socialism was also social political and ideological and it comes down to the ridiculous pseudoscientific concept of dialectical materialism

>>2177218
>the majority of the world embargoes a country broken apart and thorn by war
>its economy struggles
>MUST BE THOSE DARN POLICIES!

Look at Cuba, its economic situation is 99% the USA embargo on trade, and 1% planned economy inefficiency.

>>2177227
Is this a map of the least developed areas in the world in the beginning of the 20th century? Looks like it.
Its surprising how those underdeveloped countries that had a total war fought in their territory couldn't manage to get rich while the rest of the planet refused to trade with them. Huh.

It has an incentive problem. Didn't even need ten words.

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>>2177232
>its economic situation is 99% the USA embargo on trade

Troll confirmed stop wasting my time dude

>>2175831

Why do you attribute "workers rights" to Communism?

>>2177232

The entire Soviet Union embargoed the US. Why didn't they collapse?

>>2177239
>Its surprising how those underdeveloped countries that had a total war fought in their territory couldn't manage to get rich while the rest of the planet refused to trade with them.
i dont remember any total war being fought in chile
also its the USSR's own fault for not letting their little warsaw pact puppets take marshall plan money

>>2177239
Finland was a rural backwater with no industry and a part of Russian empire and they didn't end up being an impoverished shithole, in fact they're one of the richest countries in the world. But their Estonian buddies did end up poor and shitty.

>>2177239
See >>2177215

>>2177232
>its economic situation is 99% the USA embargo on trade
if a country is 99% reliant on its capitalist neighbor maybe socialism isn't working out so well

>>2177232
What effect did the Cold War and the red powers have on the U.S., Europe, and Japan?
Anything?
How did it bankrupt the Soviet Union and not the U.S.?
Does everyone on the planet need to cooperate in order for it to work?

>>2177232
>Look at Cuba, its economic situation is 99% the USA embargo on trade

>expropriates billions of USA company wealth
>gets mad when they enact sanctions

>>>>implying CUBA would even have trade regardless

>>2177252
>Soviet Union embargoed the only superpower that left WW2 with its whole industries and populace relatively intact
Shit nigga i wonder why

>>2177276

They embargoed all of NATO, or did Europe not suffer enough during the war?

>>2177194
Marx isn't an intellectual dead end in economics in the sense that there was never a beginning

>>2177281
Oh you mean the Europe that is allied with the same superpower that i talked about?

Yea

>>2177252
>Why didn't they collapse?
Read a newspaper. They did collapse.

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Little off topic but I'd just like to add that Venezuela has one of if not the largest oil reserve on the planet and it's citizens are eating dogs and cats in the dark with no electricity

>>2177257
>in fact they're one of the richest countries in the world

TOP
FUCKING
KEK

Have you been to Finland? It is a continent sized village.
Do you only know of it from tourist brochures?

>>2177273
>implying CUBA would even have trade regardless

It would export cigars, quite lucrative. Also sugar, raw tobacco, coffee, medical drugs.
Yes, the embargo is destroying them.

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>>2177293

>Venezuela is not true socialism™

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>>2177293
Now wait just a minute!

>>2177293
>Venezuela has one of if not the largest oil reserve on the planet

This is objectively wrong. Even just the state of Texas has more, and higher quality, and easier to axes oil.

>>2177294
>It is a continent sized village
...what the fuck does that have to do anything with my post? It's still fucking rich.

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>>2177297

Cuba is free to trade with the entire world except America (80% of global GDP).

Of course Cuba doesn't have much toi trade since it is a third world backwater shithole.

Also the total embargo and blockade is a leftcuck commiesperg meme. America exports hundreds oif millions of agricultural supplies to Cuba each year since socialism is so inefficient they can't even feed themselves.

>>2177297
Oh yes because it would totally not sanction itself off like every other socialist state did

>>2177307
Its not a large economy, thus its not a rich state.
California has 10 times the GDP of Finland.

>>2177315
Have you looked at the world map? Mexico and the USA, the two countries that surround Cuba, and the only two large economies in the area, don't trade with them.
Their largest trading partner is fucking Venezuela, a failed bankrupt state.

Yes, they export to China, but thats on the other side of the planet.
If the USA lifted embargo on Cuba completely, its economy would double in a decade.

>>2177304

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/3/14/4060/Business/Markets--Companies/Venezuela-Oil-reserves-surpasses-Saudi-Arabias.aspx

https://web.archive.org/web/20150628114325/https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/pdf/Energy-economics/statistical-review-2014/BP-statistical-review-of-world-energy-2014-full-report.pdf

https://www.usgs.gov/news/usgs-estimates-20-billion-barrels-oil-texas-wolfcamp-shale-formation

Venezuela has 297 billion barrels of oil in their reserves

Texas has 20 billion

>>2177328
Rich implies living standards and not the size of the economy. California is fuckhuge but it's actually a shithole.

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>>2177343
>Since 2000, certain U.S. exports of agricultural goods and medical devices have been permitted
>Cuba is currently our 147th largest goods trading partner with $180 million in total (two way) goods trade during 2015. Goods exports totaled $180 million

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/cuba

>its economy would double in a decade

That's sounds completely made up but I will bite do you have any reputable source to back this up?

>>2177343
They trade with Europe extensively.

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>>2177328

Lefty/pol/ is not sending their best for sure...

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>>2177345
This is literally just repeating the number that the communist party announced to the people in 2010.

>>2177357
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2050.html#cuba

Yeah, extensively. As in, 30% of exports, at best.

>>2177370
30% is a huge number. The point is there is no embargo on Cuban goods there like there is in the US.

>we just installed a government that hates you and wants to remove you from the planet
>w-what do you mean you refuse to trade with me you evil capitalist pigdog?

Commies are this retarded.

But at least they admitted Cuba is a shithole instead of peddling the Oliver Stone meme about how they're developed and civilized and shit.

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>>2177354
What the text says:
>Even with the recent changes, the U.S. trade embargo with Cuba remains in place and most transactions between the United States and Cuba continue to be prohibited. Since 2000, certain U.S. exports of agricultural goods and medical devices have been permitted.

What you quote:
>Since 2000, certain U.S. exports of agricultural goods and medical devices have been permitted.

Come on, you even fucking linked it.

>>2177372
There are also huge transport costs, and the silly EU regulations. USA embargo is fucking huge, I don't get how you can deny that. It would suffocate almost any country.

>>2177328
California has a higher GDP than Russia

>>2177093
>let me tell you how other people agree with me
>therefore i must be right

Sorry but you are simply wrong. Marxism, although not practiced by the West (it is in fact actively suppressed), is still a contributing factor to economics today. The tories in Britain for instance are actively trying to mismanage our National Health Service so that the only way for it to function is for it to privatise. Privatisation vs. Nationalisation of industry is a huge part of the modern left in the UK.

>>2177099
I respectfully disagree, I think the household analogy is pretty apt

>>2177104
Sure there were leftists before Marx, e.g. Babeuf and in a lot of ways Robespierre, but Marx's analysis of history and capitalism has directly influenced the Labour movement in many western countries e.g. US, UK, France. It also influenced the failed Bolshevik attempts at revolution in many countries - and therefore also the West's approach to those countries.

>>2177117
Being right is more important than being in charge. Blair and Obama are testaments to this.

>>2177131
>>2177138
>>2177153
>branded unelectable by everyone including the Labour party
>wins all elections he has been in so far with landslides

>>2177380
Which is why nobody is calling Russia a rich state. Whats your point?

According to commies, Switzerland is a poor country while India is a rich country. I mean, I'm literally following their train of argumentation.

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>>2177165
Really makes you think

>>2177189
>creating wealth
For themselves at the expense of billions of others
>eliminating poverty
In certain neighbourhoods in certain countries
>driving humanity towards prosperity
Pic related

>>2177225
There is a clear incentive to go to work to create bread in the bakery because then everyone gets bread, including you. There is a clear incentive for everyone to do everyone's dishes in rotation.

>>2177228
>implying materialism isn't scientific
New meme, I'm going to start using it with all my buddies asap.

Also, Soviet """"communism"""" failed to produce because the workers were not in charge. They were told to get in line and do whatever the government wanted. Clearly not a dictatorship of the proletariat.

>>2177243
Even I agree. Although Cuba had terrible sanctions by America, they also mismanaged because he government still had the final say in absolutely fucking everything, not the workers. >>2177297 is a good point, however.

>>2177263
Honest answer from different anon: yes it needs to be global.

>>2177294
Per capita, my dude

>>2177374
Communism and capitalism want to destroy each other, it isn't the violent horrid commies vs the virtuous pure innocent capitalists.

>>2177375
Crying laughing emoji

>>2177389
Per capita my dude

>>2177392
Yeah and per capita Finland is one of the richest countries in the world, thanks for playing.

>>2177381
>I'm sorry but two nobel prize laureates don't know anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't know fucking anything about the field of economics, do ya champ?

>>2177381
>>wins all elections he has been in so far with landslides
Tories plus fucking 14

Corbyn is behind may on every age, every class, and every area

>>2177392
>Communism and capitalism want to destroy each other, it isn't the violent horrid commies vs the virtuous pure innocent capitalists.
No shit retard. But like people are literally blaming USA for Cuba being a shithole like it's something bad that they embargoed them.

Also to be completely honest, Cuba would've been a total shithole even with capitalism thanks to their racial makeup.

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>>2177392
>because the workers were not in charge
>government still had the final say in absolutely fucking everything, not the workers

[Cringe intensifies]
[Autism intensifies]

>>2177384
Just giving a prospective on how rediculus it is to compareinf California's GDP to that of Finland.
California's exeptional GDP isn't comparable to most developed countries.

>>2177392
>eliminating poverty
In certain neighbourhoods in certain countries

https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/World-as-100-people-2-centuries-1.png
FUcking capitalisnazism!!1!!

>>2177400
no it wouldn't have. Pre revolution cuba was comparable to europe and far superior to south america

>>2177417
>comparable to Europe
t. Rasiel Gonzalez

>>2177414
Te evol boozwazee strike adain!!:(!!

https://nintil.com/2016/11/30/the-paradox-of-cuban-gdp/
>This triple coincidence, versus the questionable values from WB, would make us choose the former values, and so accept that Cuba is a poor country within Latin America.

>>2177414
>attributing advances in science to economy

Every time.

>>2177396
I'm agreeing with you, the other guy is saying it's a village. I'm the leftcom anon.

>>2177397
Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize. He astronomically increased both the debt and drone strikes. Being in the Nobel club doesn't authenticate anything. Gorbachev is an example.

>>2177399
Tories +14 in polls or a real general election? Did you learn nothing about the pollsters last year?

>>2177400
Well the USA did (and continues to) fuck them up big time. It is one of if not the deciding factor in Cuba's economy.

Not even going to touch the race comment there. (Speaking as someone who hates BLM and black culture, yet disagrees with your conclusion about their genetics.)

>>2177406
Tag a friend to totally REFUTE them!!! xD

>>2177414
I'd argue that modern medicine played the laegest part in most of those. Compare London now to back in 1866. All we did is outsource the proletariat.

>>2177421
Ho boy, I just got totally REFUTED!

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>>2177438
>I'm the leftcom anon

Opinion discarded. I would rather argue with a flat earther at this point.

>>2177444
>i don't like you, this you are wrong, thanks for playing

I accept your surrender.

>>2177444
Please do. Stop wasting my time.

>>2177447
This is not me he is just LARPing. I'm calling the police right now, m8

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>>2177437
>>2177438
What exactly do you think the biggest advantage capitalism has if not creating the platform that is best suited for technological and medical advances

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty

>>2177458
The USSR was a technological and scientific powerhouse, second only to the USA.
Capitalism is most certainly not the only system able to produce progress.

>>2177462
Self reported infant mortality rate, adjusted by the party*

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>>2177447

[autism intensifies]

>Le workers didn't control the le means of le production

Literally l3ddit tier the communism party was the revolutionary vanguard and was managing the state on behalf and to benefit the "working class"

Maybe all of you stalinaboo tankie retards and "libertarian" socialist spergs must figure things out in your little circlejerks before venturing out to normal boards to shill your shit ideology.

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>>2177467
>The USSR was a technological and scientific powerhouse

>>2177438
Nobel prize in their field you fucking idiot. Show me a modern economist who says that Marx was important to economics

>>2177438
>did you learn nothing
Mate that is not even taking into account shy tory voting, haven't seen any shy labour results as of yet

You are a fucking idiot. Anyone beyond socdem is a certified retard by default

>>2177467
Name me the medical and technological advances made by the Soviets that is independent from ex-thirdreich German scientists during the space race

>>2177471
show me a source that discredits this, faggot

>>2175765

Turns out that people like having private property after all.

>>2177483
Are we seriously pretending NASA was filled to the brim with German scientists either?

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>>2177483
Nigga...

>>2177490
No.
There were tech advances independent from the space race in the U.S..

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>>2177483

>>2177495
hmmm maybe used that instead?

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>>2177495
There were tech advances independent from the space race in every state on the planet.

>>2177458
That kind of progress is neither caused by capitalism or communism, but by industrialisation as a whole. It isn't part of the debate.

>>2177476
But they didn't. They can't inside Red Fascism.

>>2177480
Sputnik.

>>2177481
I'd argue Joan Robinson - she didn't win herself but two of her ideologically similar students went on to.

Shit I completely forgot about shy tories.

>>2177488
People also like owning their own homes and workplaces, cretin.

>>2177483
Holy shit Google it

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>>2177493
>2nd only to the United States

>>2177493
>>2177500
>>2177504
Not to mention a lot of old Russian research weren't never translated is more or less kept hidden from the scientific community

>>2177509
>Russia was the only Soviet Republic
>England is the only country in the UK

>>2177507
No she didn't you fucking pleb she tried to make it relevant

>>2177509
The Nobel Prize awards were pretty much a circlejerk for the west, only the most profound soviet scientists were considered.
Also they start before the USSR existed or reformed, and they reward a wide range of disciplines.

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>Le societ union was a powerhouse
>Le stalin was le based xD xD

Irl the USSR had stagnant life expectancy and rising infant mortality rates for 30 years before it [collapsed]

>>2177507

>People also like owning their own homes and workplaces, cretin.

I agree. That's why they were so upset when the state has confiscated both to put it in the hands "trusted comrades".

>>2177493
Russians were smart. Soviets were fucktards.

I mean compare Mendeleyev, Shukhov, Tsiolkovsky or Sikorsky to any of the fuckwads born and raised in the USSR.

>>2177513
Adding Poland and Russia together doesn't even equate to Germany

Human Imperfection

>>2177557
>Human Imperfection

Meme tier response.

>Blame the workers not the system!!!!

>We are not good and euphoric enough for le socialism!!!

Socialism is fundamentally flawed

>>2177518
See
>>2177493

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>>2177576
I didn't say completely excluded, that would be too telling, You let some through so you can assume the moral high ground when confronted about it.

>>2177579
Nice conspiracy

overemphasis on economic centralization and ideological immunity to corruption

Equality is a false god, marx's socialism is trash.

>>2176364
>t. Jan Szczydomiski

>>2177539
Is anyone going to touch on this

The large part of technological advances and their impact on society is their accessibility to the public.

What good does medical advancement do if you're economic system restricts access and stagnates life expectancy?

>>2177620
Your*

>>2175765
Hegel was wrong

>>2177541
I agree.

>>2177575
I disagree but at least you aren't memeing.

>>2177630
You are incorrect.