>Islam is a destructive ideo-

>>2175116

So what has Islam done after the rise of the Ottoman Empire?

Why are the overwhelming majority of terrorist actions carried out by Muslims?

Why do they live as if it were still the 13th century? Do you think they want to relive the good ol' days of being intellectual KANGZ?

>>2175116
That may be, but most complaints are levied against the idolatry of modern groups such as the destruction of ancient sites by ISIS. It is important to remember the distinction shown in all cultures between extremists and militarists in comparison to those lucky enough to prosper in peacetime.

>>2175116
>Greek, Persian, and Indian science, mathematics, and philosophy translated into Arabic
>Islamic "science"

>>2175137
before islam, the arabs were weak nomadic troopers and didnt care much abot knowledge. in the koran it says that knowledge is important because it teaches the creations of Allah.

>a single wise ruler has the idea of building a store of knowledge in his domain
>copying all the best ideas and discoveries from every civilization they could find, then using those ideas to better themselves, a noble effort and the foundations of a great leap forward for his people
>his successors continue with the policy because it has proved beneficial so far, but nobody really shows any initiative in producing their own great works to add to the store of knowledge, they just coast along
>eventually the Arab caliphate gets on the wrong side of a marauding horde of barbarians and end up losing their invaluable trove of knowledge
>you'd think they would be able to rebuild eventually since they had all those centuries of education to produce a literate, sophisticated society, but nope
>without their cultural cheat sheet the Arabs stagnated for almost 700 years, never producing a single genius or otherwise notable person in all that time
>almost 5 centuries of scholasticism and hoarding knowledge with absolutely nothing to show for it

>>2175124
>Why do they live as if it were still the 13th century?

You say that as if everyone wasn't doing the same shit like 50 years ago. The lack of self-awareness from CURRENT YEAR folks is amazing.

>>2175302
>50 years ago
They weren't.

>>2175304
Raping your spouse was legal and homosexual was illegal in the USA 50 years ago.

>>2175309
Neither of those things is true.

>>2175309
>as if that's what "13th century" means

>>2175302
What does 50 years ago have to do with Muslims being developmentally stunted medieval culture?

>>2175298
>but nobody really shows any initiative in producing their own great works to add to the store of knowledge, they just coast along

But that's wrong.

>>2175318
Seems to be what people mean by 13th century anytime they refer to Muslim misogyny and homophobia today.

>>2175315
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_(United_States_law)#History_to_1993

> In the United States, prior to the mid-1970s marital rape was exempted from ordinary rape laws

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States

>only one state legalized sodomy before 1970
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Offences_Act_1967

>>2175319
Because CURRENT YEAR retards with no sense of scale think that most of the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia have a "medieval culture" that's 800 years old in regards to shit like rape laws and treatment of homosexuals instead of one that would be pretty much viewed as bog standard 50 years ago.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Golden_Age

But you're wrong, OP. And the hadiths about knowledge or the ink of the scholar being stronger than the sword are all weak/fabricated hadith according to Muslim scholars.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Fabricated_Hadith

And these are all hadith people use to make Mohammad look like a great, tolerant person.

Nice try at either performing taqiyyah or falling for it. But that only works on the ignorant. Namely, those too dumb and lazy to look shit up.

>>2175336
Not to mention these Middle Eastern laws on rape and homosexuals were passed almost around the same time they were passed in Western countries (or even passed for them by Victorian era parliaments controlled by Western powers).

>>2175331
REKT

>>2175338
>wikiislam
>taqiyyah

>>2175336
>implying that in 1967 women were seen as sex dolls who had to be stoned if they got raped
>implying that the west in 1967 wasnt liberal but executed everyone who dared question christianity

>>2175354

You can check the sources. They are real. The source of the information does not refute the information. Especially when every single one cites Muslim sources and direct quotes. Try harder.

>start off laughing at jihadis and Islamists for being backwards ass goat fuckers as a gud atheist boi
>get interested in the Middle East conflicts
>end up as a Islamoboo with great respect for Arabs, Persians, Turks, etc., and also became part-time Christboo with a newfound respect for religion as a whole, hamdullah *points index finger in the air while crying "takbir" and teleporting behind Western atheist pigdog*

What happened to me, /his/?

File: Petra1.jpg (69KB, 640x427px) Image search: [Google]

69KB, 640x427px

>>2175189
>before islam, the arabs were weak nomadic troopers and didnt care much abot knowledge.
That's Islamic revisionist bullshit.

The Sabaeans, Nabataeans, Palmyrenes, and Dilmunites were far from being ignorant bedouins.

>>2175365
The problem isn't the sources, it's the skewed, selective, and opinionated presentation of it. Wikiislam is good only for gathering a large number of translated Arabic excerpts on multiple topics for when you're too poor for the Encyclopedia of Islam or Iranica. Literally everything else outside of those text boxes is [original research] hot garbage.

>>2175386
Nothing. You were and still are highly susceptible to dank memes instead of being boringly literate and unemotional.

>>2175386
how do you defend islam from shit like sharia law?

>>2175338
Isn't Hadith basically 90-95% plagiarism with muhammad being cut-and-pasted into shit?

>>2175390

Good thing the links I listed don't do that. Sorry that your golden age was a myth, Mohammad, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Unless there is a global Muslim conspiracy to discredit Islam, those sources are valid.

I'm not the one who invented Islam or made them rely on everybody else to translate knowledge from others and most of their inventions were made by people who either Arab (but not Muslim) or was invented by others altogether. Islam is not a theology that promotes learning. What is rewarded in Islam is performing the 5 pillars, fighting unbelievers, and dying in the name of Allah. If you have issues with that, go argue with Allah, Mohammad, or other Muslims. It isn't my fault for posting facts about Islam. I could do the same for many faiths, but this thread is about the fundamentally flawed presentation of some Islamic golden age.

>>2175422
>Good thing-
Yeah no, don't even bother, son. You're not going to impress anyone but unscrupulous amateurs, and no one with any training is going to return the favor. You copy-pasting meme lords are like walking-talking viruses.

>>2175417

No. These are like the gospels in a sense. People knew the Quran says shit about following the Sunnah and nobody thought to write down his words or actions until after he died. So they went around asking people who knew him, his wives, companions, etc. And there is a whole system for them as to what is authentic, to what degree, whose character is reliable enough to be a believable narration, etc. Granted, you could doubt how accurate it is, in some sense, but there isn't anything like plagiarism there. And given all the good hadith tend to be the ones that appeal to our sensibilities, it seems likely that most sahih hadith are reliable most of the time since reading those paints a pretty good representation of what an ignorant theologian turned warrior would believe and act like. So even if they were all wrong, odds are it's close to what Mohammad was like.

>>2175434
>You copy-pasting meme lords are like walking-talking viruses.
Are you at least going to discredit his sources?

>>2175116
Islam isn't an ideology. There's been everything from Muslim communists to Muslim fascists to Muslim secularists, to Muslim traditionalists. Modern Muslim reactionary revivalists and Islamists have been destructive lately, but that has to do with their politics, which has been poisoned pretty badly by several decades of civil war and insurgency against dictatorships in the region.

>>2175434

Amateurs? Should I go post each source individually here rather than direct you to a source which compiles many of them together? We're on 4chan. It's easier to cite one source which quotes and links to Muslim sources already than posting each one and having to word it myself.

I don't give a fuck if a hardline zionist Jew wrote the entire thing. The information stands or falls on its own merits. So are you going to refute what was said or are you going to keep attacking the source as if that refutes what it says about your faith?

>>2175445
Except it literally does cut-and-paste sections out of jewish and christian texts.

>>2175462

That's the Quran. The Quran fucks up and quotes the torah as saying something when it's really a talmudic extract, cites various apocryphal and fairy tales from Christians and Jews of the time, mistakes the trinity as god, Jesus, and Mary, etc.

The hadith is different. It's usually just as wrong, but for different reasons.

>>2175396
True, I never thought of it that. Could explain why I've been on this godforsaken site for more than ten years.

>>2175406
I don't know, to be honest. I wouldn't want to live under sharia law, but I respect the devotion to tradition and culture that it represents in a way. As someone who enjoys pork, sex, and alcohol, sharia law is hard for me to defend it so I won't. But I do think that the hype about it is way overblown, since Westerners equate support for sharia law with support for the genocide of Shia and kafirs. No sane person would equate anti-LGBT or pro-life politics with the Spanish Inquisition or Srebrenica, so it's pretty off-base.

I suppose it's like being a Wehraboo, how do you excuse the war crimes? Aside from denial, of course.

>>2175338
But what's clear is in the Quran that seeking for knowledge is the obligation of every muslim regardless of gender. Contributing to the society is also considered sadaqah jariyah, so it gives the contributor deeds even when he/she is dead. Caliph Ali has also made clear about the importance of knowledge.

>>2175461
>I don't give a fuck if a hardline zionist Jew wrote the entire thing. The information stands or falls on its own merits.
Kinda proving his point about being an amateur there. This isn't a hard science field where you're comparing boson levels with sophisticated equipment. Selection bias and the way you frame an argument based on the available (and often unavailable or sparse) information makes up most of history.

>>2175116
______________¶___
|religion of peace ||l “”|””\__,_
|______________|||__|__|__|]
(@)@)*********(@)(@)**(@)

>>2175422
There are many other thing that you get reward for in Islam. Look at more hadiths.

>>2175505

And when he shows me how their conclusions are unfair, or the sources and quotes they pick are unreliable, I'll be glad to take another look.

All he's done is go "le wikiislam lol" which does not refute what was said. I showed him what sources I read to reach my conclusions, and as far as I can tell, they reach reasonable conclusions based on what they cite and quote. If he can show me where the actual sources are wrong rather than just bashing the site it's on, maybe we can actually have a discussion.

>>2175422
>Sorry that your golden age was a myth
People say this, but there hasn't been a single major historical work that makes a case that can stand up to peer review. It only ever gets repeated on blogs and private publications.

>>2175514

Memorizing the name of god, helping animals, refraining from touching dogs and washing things they touch X amount of times, killing black ones because they are devils, saying certain verses X number of times and memorizing it, etc. I have read the hadith before.

>>2175525
Sadaqah also. Sadaqah can means many thing, one of them is to be able to contribute to the society by knowledge. Sadaqah jariyah is basically a kind of sadaqah which can give us deeds everytime our contribution is used by the others. This have been the motivation by many muslims to find knowledge so they'll be able to contribute.

>>2175518
>I'll be glad to take another look
No you wouldn't, or you wouldn't have stopped at Wikiislam for all your information on the subject. Let's be real, you can get a billion articles arguing both sides of the issue, some extreme and others more reasonable but still partisan, and you wouldn't need an anon on 4chan to convince you that maybe it's not all gospel one way or another.

The smart thing to do (besides getting a JSTOR account and reading UniPress books only) would be to link two sensible articles from wikiislam and, I don't know, /r/askhistorians and explain that, no, it was probably more like this and take pieces from both articles to balance out the bias in interpretation on certain points.

Islam is a hardcore religion and Muslims should be proud of that. I'm Chinese and I wish we were more hardcore but nope, Asians just shut up and do whatever the West tells them to do. Don't be fooled by China's "aggression", deep down they are just like the Japanese - they want the respect and admiration of the West like good little slant eyes.

Muslims say fuck that - they're going to protect their way of life, whatever the cost. I say go for it, because nothing lasts forever and Western hegemony is no exception.

>>2175548
How's the uygurs and hui?
They good?

>>2175548
Muslim hegemony peaked centuries ago, they ruled over large swathes of the Earth and now they're reduced to living on the fringe of first world civilization.

>>2175537

http://www.islamquote.com/2013/04/03/sadaqat-ul-jariyah/

Which means helping other Muslims given the context. And examples are giving to Muslim charities, memorizing the Quran, etc. I don't count memorizing things Mohammad made up as a sign of intellectual brilliance and helpful to humanity anymore than I find Mohammad to be the best person of all time and a mercy to the world.

>>2175548
Frankly, as an American I'm more afraid of Asians than Muslims.

Asians don't freak out as often, but when they do, it typically involves tens of millions of them.

>>2175557
But what i'm trying to point out is that knowledge is a significantly important thing in Islam, no it's not about memorizing verse or hadith. The website that you've given clearly says that knowledge that benefits many people in which if you just memorize the verses or hadith it may only benefit you but maybe not the others. Basically any kind of useful knowledge like science, etc will earn you a jariyah deeds too. It's also based on the effect to the society on how positive it is without ignoring the religious aspect.

>>2175571
*it's not ONLY about memorizong hadith or verse. It is important too but there are other knowledges that is also important.

File: zHnb6De.png (748KB, 1500x1159px) Image search: [Google]

748KB, 1500x1159px

Why aren't Middle-easterners smart anymore? Cousin marriages? Other dysgenics?

>>2175576

And whether or not that is true, clearly it pertained to religious knowledge in the past as most of the Islamic golden age was either invented by someone else, translated by other people, etc. Arabs certainly contributed, but they tended to not be Muslim either.

Islam focuses on religion, so memorizing the Quran and hadith would be worthwhile to them because what is better than helping them get to paradise? That does not mean that the Muslim contributions to that golden age were large. They were negligible. Even now you will find very few reputable Muslim scientists. There are some, but it isn't exactly a hotbed of diverse intellectual ideas and discourse. Especially if something may go against their religious ideas.

So, don't mix up Arabs and Muslims. Islam is the issue that causes them to be radical and think there is no higher cause than dying for Allah and focusing on theology.

>>2175445
>These are like the gospels in a sense
Closer to epistles or old testament

>>2175116

>Islam starts to become less religious and more rational and starts to not suck

>Cavemen Imams chimp out and destroy their progress

>Next 600 years sees a steady decline into garbage fire tier internal corruption and decay.

>HURR GOLDEN AGE MEANS RELIGION ISNT BAD WE WUZ KANGS... etc, etc.

They had their shot at an enlightenment and it got fucked up; maybe next time if they don't cause the western bigboys to go full retard and glass the planet in the meantime.

>>2175637
Didn't the Mongols end the Islamic golden age with the Extermination of the Khwarezimians though?

>>2175712
And I say Extermination because the Mongols killed quite a lot of Khwarezimians in their conquest

>>2175717

It certainly didn't help, but I think reaction is an incredibly strong force in Islam and the pre-occupation with mysticism and divine infallibility had a lot to do with sabotaging the rational elements within their societies.

Combine that with later Wahhabism and you end up with what you have now.

Not to say it's IMPOSSIBLE for them to unfuck themselves, but it would require a lot of struggle on their behalf and a lot of not fucking them up even more on the West's behalf, so it's probably unlikely.

>>2175555
They're making Europe a settler colony with their youth bulge of second, third and fourth sons. That's what imperialism marches on hordes of mate-deprived males and institutional harems requires this caste by design.

>>2175511
who even says this besides alt-righters none of the Abrahamic religions are religions of peace and all of them are quite toxic when reverted down to fundamentalism

>>2175116
>Le some people from this religion invented shit so it dindu nuffin meme

Christcucks and Mudslimes out

File: F2YfZBl.jpg (55KB, 512x324px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 512x324px

>>2175124
>Why are the overwhelming majority of terrorist actions carried out by Muslims?
[citation needed]
>Why do they live as if it were still the 13th century?
Go look at pictures of Kabul in the 60s and 70s (like this picture of Afghan women in short skirts going to college, for instance). Shit, Iraq in the 80s, Tehran in the 60s. Shit, look at Saudi culture before Wahabbi became state-enforced. The ME was pretty down with what we'd call "Western Values"

Turns out bombing places into the Stone Age and then contuining to bomb them isn't exactly conducive to infrastructural and philosophical developments outside of "fuck the people bombing us."

>>2175827
This is literally Tehran right now, except with some headscarves. What you're describing wasn't the ME being down with Western values, it was the urban bourgeoisie being down with Western values like urban bourgeoisie are all around the world.

And this may come as a shock to you, but many urban elite all over the Middle East are still following Western fashion and trends. If anything, there's more opportunity to do so thanks to dat oil money. If you'd like, you can go party in Beirut or Damascus (I don't recommend this option).

>>2175864
Quick reminder that CIA shenanigans are the reason Iran is a theocracy.

Also, if I follow you, what you're saying is that not being poor as shit and getting the fuck bombed out of you constantly means that your values system is going to be much more in line with things the west prioritizes? That people who haven't been bombed into the Middle Ages don't live like they're in the Middle Ages?

>>2175827
>why are the majority of terrorist actions carried out by Muslims? (Citation needed)
Google search is a thing. You'll get the FBI stats on it. Don't be lazy.

>>2175864
While I understand this point each time it's brought up in relation to Middle Eastern urbanite culture in the past, in a stable society (i.e. free of bombs and civil wars) the urban culture will invariably influence the rest of the country. It's not like the West also didn't have its share of country yokels who were want to tar and feather anything they didn't like either.

File: e8e.png (84KB, 600x587px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 600x587px

>>2175928
>Makes a claim
>Is asked to back it up
>"lol no YOU look out up"
That's not how this works.

>>2175331
Damn

>>2175116
yes it is, but people were secular

>>2175511
i understand the reference

>>2175827
>Go look at pictures of Kabul in the 60s and 70s

Shit like that was literally on happening in Kabul and few other cities, the rest of the country was ass backwards.

Soviet war in Afghanistan happened in the first place because Afghan communists tried pushing hardcore socialist reforms without asking the soviets first and the people revolted. Why the people revolted? They were old school muslims who wouldn't have any of that commie shit.

And then soviets had to send in Central Asian troops disguised as Afghani soldiers to aid the government and it blew up into war.

>>2176972
>Shit like that was literally on happening in Kabul and few other cities, the rest of the country was ass backwards.

And most social change and progress in the West also happened in the major cities while the rest of the countryside was conservative and traditional. That's not the point. The point is Kabul was the center of change for the country, one which would have eventually propagated itself throughout the rest of the country just like what happened with other capitals and major cities in the West were it not for the invasions and instigated civil wars and revolts that toppled them.

itt:
t.sam harris

>>2175116
*Drives truck into crowd*

>>2175434

Anon I'm an impressionable neophyte in these topics and I'm actually waiting on you to refute him.
If you don't it could send me on a path to hatred so please respond seriously. This thread is quite interesting.

>>2175460
>There's been everything from Muslim communists to Muslim fascists to Muslim secularists, to Muslim traditionalists

Each either ignoring their religion totally or reconciling it with the given "solute" theory.

>>2175595
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/04/18/new-app-helps-icelanders-avoid-accidental-incest/2093649/

https://gizmodo.com/5882644/iceland-is-so-inbred-it-needs-a-website-to-avoid-incest

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

https://www.ukessays.com/ask/are-arabs-genetically-indistingishable-from-caucasians-848

kill yourself

>>2175502
>Westerners equate support for sharia law with support for the genocide of Shia and kafirs

I think it's the idea that you're suggesting laws of your country should be subordinate to laws of your religion.

It's as far from assimilation as it gets.

But I respect your weebery, friend. I'm glad you're finding peace somehow.

>>2175548
>they're going to protect their way of life, whatever the cost

Even if it means going out of their way to exit their lands and ruin other people's shit?

Chinese are pragmatists. They see shit that works and adopt it, while maintaining dragons and rice and shit.
It has nothing to do with submission.
I don't doubt Americans have adapted plenty of Asian stuff for themselves in the same way. What white girl doesn't love going to chinatown and getting it up the butt from Jackie Chan?

>>2175637
>>Cavemen Imams chimp out and destroy their progress

I want to believe you and am very excited to bring this into my next argument. But only as long as I'm reading this thread.

Care to explain this part of the story?

>>2175766

In my first exposure to islam as a child, a sweet mother came to school to teach us and called it the "religion of peace". I had no reason not to believe her.

My second major interaction with Islam was on birthright in Israel. We visited a mosque for a q&a with the imam, i believe. or just a couple prominent characters in town. They too wanted to be sure we understood "religion of peace" was their motto.

>>2175712
Muʿtazila were dying out before the Mongol invasions.

You're talking about a religion that was on the verge of a 17th century European rational-skeptical Enlightenment. They willingly threw it away.

>>2177053
He actually refuted himself in his own post.

>>2175886
The more prosperous the country, the less they truthfully uphold the tenants of their ancient, violent religions.

Funny.

Or do you think it's Islam that brought fashionable styles and a yearning for acquiring wealth and knowledge to those women?

>>2176318

I ALMOST FORGOT ABOUT ALL THOSE ATHEIST TRUCK BOMBINGS AND JEWISH GAY CLUB SHOOTOUTS THESE PAST FIVE YEARS HAVE BEEN ALL ABOUT

MAN THIS TERRORISM STUFF IS EVERYWHERE

>>2175189
But.. They still are weak nomadic idiots.
https://youtu.be/hZZMXV_PRXk

>>2175124
>Why are the overwhelming majority of terrorist actions carried out by Muslims?
Because an overwhelming majority of the population living in the middle-east is muslim. If the the ME wasn't as instable as it is today terrorism wouldn't exist.

>>2177108
>these past 5 years
hmmm

>>2175338
>The most western-style "virtuous" hadiths are at best a fragile facade, used as a selling point on Mohammad for initiates and observers, hence taqiyyah
>list of fabricated hadiths from wikiislam

>>2177100
Which part of that is contradictory?
I would love to hear a solid refutation so the next time one of my buddies gets up in arms about Islam I can try to put him in his place.

>>2177118

Probably goes further back, I know.

Rev up that Spengler.

>>2175338
There's more than one Hadith on each those subjects, Anon. Not to mention an entirely grand-spanking new bunch by the Shia that one can use as hadith (1+/10 actually exclusively use these, so citing only Bukhari and Muslim as sources kind of throws them under the bus--pun not intended--don't you think?)

As for the Golden Age, most polymaths and inventors of the time were also theologians, ibn Rushd and ibn Sina being good examples. While there were atheist thinkers like Ferdowsi, and Khayyam, it was predominantly Islamic.

WikiIslam has a confirmation bias and has been known to willfully omit shit that doesn't fit its narrative.

>>2175137
In the end the muslims had more collective knowledge than either the greeks, or the persians, or the indians had.
They didn't just steal, they combined, cleaned up and organized it. And in some cases, like astronomy and geography, they advanced it.

Stop trying to oversimple everything to fit it in a >muh thing meme.

>>2175338
Taqiyyah is Shia, my man. Sunnis hate it and don't have it in their theology. Plus it's for whenever your life is threatened.

t. Shia

>>2177133
> I could do the same for many faiths, but
He literally admitted his emotional biases there, can't be taken seriously as a person arguing in good 'faith'.

>>2176972
>Rural America chimps out at the mention of the words "socialism" and "black president."
Yeah the west is SO different, with its liberal cities and deeply religious and conservative rural areas. Quit acting like anything you're saying is only true of countries with Muslims in them like there isn't an extremely popular culture in the west centered around beating off to the concept of society collapsing to the point where their ideological opponents can be shot on sight.

>>2177102
>Muslims who don't act like my extremely narrow perception of Muslims aren't real Muslims.
...

>>2177111

Lets say it wasn't. Let's say the US was unstable and picked up their Christian roots.
I mean, they probably wouldn't radicalize around Jesus, since he's described as a pacifist masochist. But say they just took up the Old Testament and started killing people like they did in the old days.

Is Christianity a violent ideology?
Yes. Just because they ignored it until they started getting bombed doesn't make a difference.

Say they radicalized on a secular ideology. Marxism.
Is that a violent ideology?
No. Nothing in its tenants expressly calls for violence.

But maybe you can dig something up on that. So let's make it black and white.
The Non-Aggression Principle. What if some assholes decided the best way to spread Non-Aggression was by killing the aggressive people who are destabilizing their home region.
Is Non-Aggression a violent ideology?
No. That's your "human beings responding to strife in the most human way and corrupting a nonviolent ideology" scenario. And it's entirely agreeable.

Islam, however, like most religions, is a complex, ancient ideology, which, at it's core, has some undesirably violent, contradictory tenants.
No matter what your interpretation of "non-aggression principle" is, if you're being aggressive, you are by definition not following it.
The same is not true for Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc etc

>>2177176

could you point out a hadith of his that, if you looked at it from a friendlier point of view, would be less weak or less fake?

>>2177166
And to anyone who thinks hadith are not extensive and the WikiIslam article is 10/10 flawless, go to Sunnah.com and search any topic your little heart desires and it will pull up related hadith--and there are a veritable fuckton.

>>2177177
>Muslims who don't act like my extremely narrow perception of Muslims aren't real Muslims.


Which text in Islam says "we were just kidding about the whole hijab thing"?

Or better yet, since these bourgeois tend toward secularism, and go to church less, which part says "we were just kidding about the whole G-d exists thing"?

Sure, they may still be "real muslims" if the rules are changing. But it should be clear that once the original rules get lenient and even dissolve away, your definition of Muslim just gets vaguer and vaguer until it's meaningless.

>>2177182
Violence is a symptom of poverty, and endemic violence is a symptom of endemic poverty.

People whose material needs are being met, and aren't given a reason to think their material needs won't be met in the future, aren't gonna start killing people bar serious mental illness.

So yeah, in places like the heavily destabilized ME, people are more violent. Radicalized Muslims in the West? You think MAYBE that's got something to do with popular rhetoric calling for their deportation or at least that they be treated like second-class citizens?

You think it's unreasonable for Muslims to hate the west? Frankly I find it remarkable that most of them are as chill as they are.

>>2177208
>hey ahmed are you a muslim
>yep
well

>>2175116

This also happened during the "ISLAMIC GOLDEN AGE" but noone dares to mention it.

>During his reign, Al-Aziz tried to demolish the Great Pyramids of Giza, Egypt, but had to give up because the task was too big. However, he did succeed in damaging Menkaure's Pyramid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aziz_Uthman

>>2177214
>Violence is a symptom of poverty, and endemic violence is a symptom of endemic poverty.
agreed

>People whose material needs are being met, and aren't given a reason to think their material needs won't be met in the future, aren't gonna start killing people bar serious mental illness.
agreed

>So yeah, in places like the heavily destabilized ME, people are more violent
Agreed

>Radicalized Muslims in the West? You think MAYBE that's got something to do with popular rhetoric calling for their deportation or at least that they be treated like second-class citizens?
I do, actually.

>You think it's unreasonable for Muslims to hate the west?
Not at all.

>>2177217

Cool bro, I'm Martian.
You may not know this but anyone living in the same solar system as Mars is actually Martian.

>>2177208
>Religions never change and only their most fundamentalist sects are valid demonstrations of a belief system.
>Religions don't primarily function as a set of aspirant stories to get people to not be fucks to each other and to calm the existential dread in the back of all our minds.

Almost every Catholic alive today would've been tortured to death by good Catholics six centuries ago as heretics. Does that mean modern Catholics aren't Catholics?

Do you see how silly your position is?

>>2177214
Muslims in the West have next to no reason to hate the West.

It's all propaganda.

>>2177229
>an analogy

You may not know this, but you can become a Muslim right now, you seem quite familiar with the religion anyway, but you can't become a Martian, because it's a different type of identity.

>>2177233
>Multiples leaders and parties being swept into power on a wave of anti-immigrant, anti-refugee, and anti-Muslim rhetoric.
>Next to no reason to feel threatened by this or to be angry
K

>>2177226
>whole post
Good. When I saw "non-aggression principle" I was worried you were gonna be retarded. Glad that's not the case since most of the time Irma a term bandied about by borderline-fascist morons with a coloring book understanding of sociology and economics.

>>2177231
>Does that mean modern Catholics aren't Catholics?

Yeah, if they're being honest.
At the very least, they're less catholic than they used to be.
Most Catholics would agree about that trend if you packaged the verbage a little less threateningly, and pretty much everyone who isn't would agree outright.

They're moving toward secularism. Eventually they'll be "spiritual but not religious" or "deist" or "atheist" and still calling themselves Catholic while priests call them retarded.

>>2175189
Absording hundreds of ethnicities, invading well established civilizations expanded ones worldview and scientific knowledge - who could've imagined that!

As if those Jews, Christians did not exist in Ottoman/Muslim domains...

>>2177208
>2017
>no true Scotsman
Lel

>>2177233
Make two identical CVs, send them in to European employers with both Muslim and Christian names and you will see a significant difference in the reply rate.
It has been this way for decades.

>>2177238
>but you can't become a Martian, because it's a different type of identity.

Says who?
All my Martian friends agree with my definition of Martian. We are TRUE Martians.
My nationality is Martian, but my country, is America.
You're being pretty intolerant of our beliefs right now.

>>2177256
>>Multiples leaders and parties being swept into power on a wave of anti-immigrant, anti-refugee, and anti-Muslim rhetoric.
A recent development.

Generally speaking, minorities are only at a very slight disadvantage in Western Europe when it comes to achieving in life. People are distrustful at first, but quickly turn around.

They should be just as angry at islamic radicals as they are at right-wing radicals.

I'm a visible minority myself.
>>2177267
Perfectly aware of this, it has to do with people statistically inferring the quality of the worker.

>>2177262
He's the one NTS'ing.
Radical Muslims aren't real Muslims?
Plz

>>2177272
Your definition of Martian is on par with your definition of Muslim when it comes to correctness.

I know analogies sound convincing in your head, but in reality arguing by analogy is illogical because it's not arguing by symmetry.

>>2177267
Further to this I would say things like alienation and unemployment/poverty are significant contributors to mental illness.
More than shit genes, less than shit childhood.

>>2177208
The good news is, a very slim minority of Muslims on the planet actually meet your criteria to be considered a Muslim. That being the case, we'd better readjust all those statistics about Muslim countries, and the religion of all terrorists who aren't "sufficiently" Muslim.

Are Shias Muslim? Which sects of Sunnism count, to your eye?

>>2177291
>muh alienation
>muh muslim9k

It goes both ways in terms of blame, when it comes to alienation. Almost all non-religious Arabs are see are not alienated.

>>2177282
You actually think that's the position you're arguing against? Is that a deliberate strawman or are you retarded?

Show me where I said that, please.

What I said is that non-radical, westernized Muslims ARE Muslims. Which you're disagreeing with. That's NTS as fuck, son...

>>2177256
>>whole post
>Good.

You see what I'm getting at though? Did I win you over?
Violence radicalizes them. And without it, they may truthfully act more tolerant and peaceful.
But that doesn't change the fact that Islam has undesirable tenants which when thrown away, compromise the definition of Islam, putting it on a course tending toward secularism, eventually being meaningless.
The original definition, which includes the killing and intolerance, is still intact.
The final is just a costume you wear to feel attached to your ancestors.

>532 verses dedicated to violence and cruelty to others
>http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html


>Bible
>1321 verses dedicated to violence and cruelty to others
>http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Desert judeo-christian ideologies are destructive

>>2177284

What was your correct definition of Islam again? And how was it different from mine?

>>2177313
Is Christianity meaningless?

>>2177319
A Martian is a person born on Mars.

You can't decide to have been born on Mars.

Do you see why you are basically lying to yourself with your analogies?

>>2177313
I get what you're saying, and I'm glad we agree about the root causes of violence.

However, at its core, I just don't buy the premise that, because Islam can be interpreted violently it's inherently more violent. We're up to our eyeballs in people who follow Islam and don't and will never kill anybody.

Furthermore, show me any single coherent ideology (outside of pacifism) and I'll show you how to get people to kill for it.

>>2177214
>Violence is a symptom of poverty, and endemic violence is a symptom of endemic poverty.

So being poor excuses mass murder?

>People whose material needs are being met, and aren't given a reason to think their material needs won't be met in the future, aren't gonna start killing people bar serious mental illness.

Strange, there seems to be an enormous amount of evidence to the contrary.

>Radicalized Muslims in the West? You think MAYBE that's got something to do with popular rhetoric calling for their deportation or at least that they be treated like second-class citizens?

You mean after planes were flown into buildings? Did they know in advance that America wanted to deport them?

>You think it's unreasonable for Muslims to hate the west? Frankly I find it remarkable that most of them are as chill as they are.

It's expected, not inexcusable.

>>2177340
Nationalism is inherently peaceful. It doesn't advocate genocide or mass murder.

>>2177311

Okay, I'll admit I just strawman'd because I was trying to avoid your argument from fallacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

I may indeed have used an NTS. But that's not enough of a refutation of my argument.

Surely there's a reverse NTS where you broaden the definition of something you like to encompass everything?
You can see how that would be fallacious, but impossible to argue against without throwing out an NTS.

>>2177214

Yeah, right, all those coptic terrorists in muslim countries.

>>2177347
>So being poor excuses mass murder?
Didn't say that. Reasons are not excuses.
>Strange, there seems to be an enormous amount of evidence to the contrary.
I'll wait. The entire fields of sociology and anthropology disagree with you.

>You mean after planes were flown into buildings? Did they know in advance that America wanted to deport them?
>The west dindu nuffin! Or involvement in the Middle East in no way predates 2001!
Wew lad.

>>2177303
>a very slim minority
>implying most muslims dont support isis and want to hang jews because muh palestine

>>2177371
Dunno, most Syrians were for Assad.

I like that you mention Jews. I like.

>>2177340
>show me any single coherent ideology (outside of pacifism) and I'll show you how to get people to kill for it.

This isn't my argument though. In my larger post, I admitted you could get people to kill for the Non-Aggression principle. Because people are retarded that way.
That doesn't mean the Non-Aggression principle is violent.

However, Islam is.

>We're up to our eyeballs in people who follow Islam and will never kill anybody
There are Muslims who would never take part in a violent act, because the religion has rules for passing the buck to someone who will.
But yes, there are indeed pacifist Muslims who are just that, with no ulterior motive.

And if you can pick out all the almonds and marshmallows in a package of Rocky Road ice cream, you can still say you're eating Rocky Road ice cream, but lets be honest. It's just chocolate ice cream with a nice picture on the box.

>>2177388
>(outside of pacifism)

I just caught that, sorry.
Why exclude it though?

File: 7XubtJx.jpg (66KB, 627x663px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 627x663px

>>2177382

File: notallmuslims.png (952KB, 1807x1017px) Image search: [Google]

952KB, 1807x1017px

>>2177394
Replace men with Muslims, alt-sjw.

Even according to your data it's not all Muslims. Here's two clues.

70 years ago, wife should have obeyed husband - can you guess where? Can you guess which two groups still hold on to that.

There's Sharia and there's Sharia.

Finally I'm sure all these millions there were asked these things, seems reliable.

>>2177394
>death for adultery
why is this controversial?

File: allmen.jpg (51KB, 1600x900px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 1600x900px

one is tumblr

>>2177322

Depends how you define "meaning".

Is Modern Christianity meaningful in that it provides a spiritual, familial kind of fulfillment to its adherents? Of course.

Is the word Christianity meaningless in that it changes depending on who you're talking to? I think so.

>>2177332
>A Martian is a person born on Mars.

According to who?
What if I said a Muslim is only a person who follows all of Mohammad's examples, down to wedding and bedding prepubescent girls?
A fundamentalist, in other words.

You'd say I was being unfair.
You'd ask me to embrace a broader definition.
I won't, just like you won't.

I met some Muslims once. Nice people, but they smelt weird. Like some kind of foreign spice.

File: allmuslims.png (642KB, 1132x1250px) Image search: [Google]

642KB, 1132x1250px

>>2177432
the other is...

you decide

>>2177433
You are willingly cognitively dissonant. Read your post.

>>2177432
>>2177439
Wow, it's like stupid people are stupid or something.

>>2177432

It's trying to put a nasty taste in my mouth for the "refugees are dangerous" argument, but the thing is, I can admit that men are "poisonous" just as easily as I can admit women are.

That's why they used "poisonous" and not deadly.

You date a man, there's a chance you can get cheated on. It wouldn't necessarily be wrong if you quit dating men because of that. Of course, you wouldn't force all women to end dating either.

But then, if cheating was suicide bombing, and procreation wasn't a biological imperative - you might. If not for a little while until men stop killing women by sneaking their dick-bombs into their overly welcoming vaginas.

File: 1477471430754.jpg (6KB, 208x250px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 208x250px

>>2177432
>>2177439

>>2177468
It's referring to men being rapists not cheaters. Tumblarinas are quite irrational and believe raping a (white) woman is the worst thing in the world.

It's what you would expect from the kind of person who makes candy analogies and partly bases their opinions on those.

>>2177446

Could you save me some time trying to justify myself by pointing out the conflicting ideals?

Is it the whole post? From one response to the next, I contradict?
Or is it isolated to one response?

>>2177487

I don't think it's sincere. I'm fairly positive it's mocking the Trump version.
Or someone's using the Trump version sincerely to mock tumblerinas.

>>2177508
No. It's sincere, only the creator might have been inspired by the tumblr one, but doesn't actually mock in its use.
Donald's son retweeted it quite seriously and sincerely, it has 13k retweents and 21k likes.

I have personally seen this type of analogy argumentation with half poisoned glasses of water, candy etc. It's very much ingrained in how people 'think'.

Just look at this guy, the context is slightly different context and usage, but you can tell he's quite memed up by the last sentence in his post, bet he thinks he's clever.
>>2177388

>>2177528
Wait, how can you poison only half a glass of water?

>>2177497
>>2177446

Ah well,
I'll take a shot.

You're saying the dissonance is where I say I will not accept your broader definition of Islam, because you think I accepted the broader definition of Christianity.

Well I didn't. I said the word was useless in this context, but the concept I can get on board with.

I can get on board with modern, pacifist Muslims. I like pacifists, I have a soft spot for tradition.

But I'm not going to pretend we're not ignoring violent roots and using a compromised definition. Like calling chocolate ice cream, "rocky road without nuts and marshmallows".

I would gladly eat that ice cream, but if someone came to me and said "rocky road is shit", I wouldn't carry on disagreeing as clearly I too, believe it is shit and can admit I'm only buying it for the image.
But you would, apparently. Or whatever avatar you're defending would. That's where YOUR dissonance is, from my understanding.

Difference is, I'm sitting here asking you to please point it out to me so I can be a better human bean, while you are doing everything in your power to put me to work justifying yours.

>>2177528
>No. It's sincere, only the creator might have been inspired by the tumblr one

But I'm talking about the tumblr one.
It didn't inspire itself did it?

I'm positive Donald's son made the original analogy. And that it holds much better than the Tumblr one, which ripped it off, satirically or not, for this ">>2177468" reason.

The funny thing is, you don't believe analogies are good arguments. But you'll say Trump's tweet was stupid because it was like a Tumblrina complaining about men.

And no, they're not the same analogy just because they're using food as a vehicle. One holds and one doesn't.
So you're not concluding anything about analogies. You're concluding something about Trump, BASED on an analogy.
QED ur a doodoohead le read my post until u get it period

>>2177062
Given the breadth of Islamic history and geography, it would literally be impossible to follow more than a part of the dogma and tradition and remain ideologically consistent.

>>2177432
So I'm guessing the person who made this never heard the expression "don't let a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch". That's a lesson we teach children.