Virgin Birth of Jesus

yiff in hell

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (Matthew 1:23)

>>2175102
And how is a "virgin birth" to be a sign to anyone, considering this Mary was an obscure common woman that no one knew? The only way you could say she is a "virgin" for sure is to have followed her around, and nobody did that, especially for this woman who was rabble. It's incredibly easy to retroactively claim such a woman was a "virgin". But more than that, it's a terrible sign - who the Hell is going to notice it?

>>2175115
>The virgin birth of Jesus is supremely important in Islam, as one of the most important miracles of God. The first explicit mention of an annunciation foreshadowing the birth of Jesus is in sura 19 (Maryam), ayah 20 where Mary asks Gabriel (Jibril) how she will be able to conceive, when no man has touched her. Gabriel's reply assures Mary that for God all things are easy and that Jesus's virgin birth will be a sign for mankind.[20] The birth is later referred in sura 66 (At-Tahrim), ayah 12,[21] where the Quran states that Mary remained "pure", while God allowed a life to shape itself in Mary's womb. A third mention of the annunciation is in sura 3 (Al-Imran), ayat 42–43, where Mary is also given the glad tidings that she has been chosen above all the women of creation.[22]

>>2175073
Kass ass

>>2175125
My question still stands, and your saying Muslims believe does not make it any more believable or even convincing: a "virgin birth" is an awful sign, especially back then, because nobody is going to fucking notice it. And even if you claim it, how will you prove - back then - that it was truly a virgin birth?

>>2175102

>Not knowing that Isaiah 7:14 is talking about Isiah's own kid.

Pleb, learn to read.

>>2175115

The passage he's quoting doesn't even mean a "virgin birth", or that it's to happen in the far future; the original Hebrew is quite explicit that she has been inseminated in the past, since it uses a perfect masculine conjugation for the siring, but an imperfect for the giving birth, i.e. she is pregnant right this minute.

It's just Christians grab-bagging stuff from the OT to try to support their notions.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

>>2175147
Why are you posting Bible quotes irrelevant to the thread?

>>2175192
And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

>>2175073
Who is this bird and where can I find more

>>2175140
It's a dual prophecy.

Unto us (Isaiah and his wife) a child is born

Unto us (mankind) a son is given (who is Christ the Lord).

Isaiah spoke of the coming of the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, extensively.

>>2175199

>Isaiah spoke of the coming of the Jewish Messiah extensively.

And not everything that Isiah spoke about was Messianic

> the Jewish Messiah, Jesus,

I didn't know you were a heretic who denied the divinity of Jesus. You do realize that the Jewish Messiah is a human, and not God, right?

Daily reminder that the original translation doesn't even state that Mary was a virgin but a young woman. Learn to philology.

>For nearly two millennia the Church has insisted that the Hebrew word almah עַלְמָה can only mean “virgin.” This is a vital position for defenders of Christianity to take because Matthew 1:22-23 translates alma in Isaiah 7:14 as “virgin.” The first Gospel quotes this well known verse to provide the only “Old Testament” proof text for the supposed virgin birth of Jesus. The stakes are high for Christendom. If the Hebrew word alma does not mean a virgin, Matthew crudely misquoted the prophet Isaiah, and both a key tenet of Christianity and the credibility of the first Gospel collapses.

>>2175216

Why would you even need to go into whether or not עַלְמָה means virgin? הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת leads to the inescapable conclusion that

A) She had sex,

B) Is pregnant at this moment, and not in the future.

>>2175073

Take it at face value because it is true.

1. Sign to the world. A son is born of a virgin. The naysayers will point out that the word for virgin can also be a young woman (who would also be a virgin), but this is God's sign to God's creation that the one and only messiah is born.

Young girls have sons every single day.

2. Descendant of David. To sit on David's throne forever, Jesus had to be a descendant of David. And he was, both through his mother and step-father. Matthew traces Jesus' lineage to David through Joseph, and Luke traces Jesus' lineage to David through Heli, Joseph's father in law, and hence through Mary. As Mary had no brothers, she can take if she marries within the tribe. She did. Both she and Joseph are of the tribe of Judah.

3. Joseph was disqualified to take the throne of David. Joseph was a direct descendant of Jeconiah, and the line of Jeconiah was cursed. Nobody in his line would sit on the throne. However, Jesus is not in the bloodline of Joseph, and so Jesus side-steps this curse and can take the throne. Heir to David, but not through Jeconiah.

4. King and Priest. Jesus' parents go back to David through both Nathan and Solomon; through the priesthood and the kingly line. And indeed Jesus is both King and High Priest, just of his own order, not a levite.

5. Jesus' father is God the Father. Jesus is the Father's only begotten son. While God has many sons, among them 2/3 of the angels and a remnant of Jews and all born again Christians, he has only one begotten Son, Jesus. And he has spoken very highly of Jesus, and elevated Jesus above all things except himself.

6. Sinless. Jesus never sinned on his own, and Jesus inherited no sin debt from his father, God the Father. It is only because Jesus is sinless that his sacrifice on our behalf was accepted by the Father.

7. Unique. Everything about Jesus is unique, including his conception. One robe without hem, made just for him. One grave, empty.

>>2175219
Pretty much, but theists still don't accept simple historical fact regardless.

>>2175219

Mary was pregnant without having sex.

That's the entire idea.

>>2175198
His name is Kass, from some Zelda game. They love him over on /trash/, specifically the bara threads.

>>2175073
Yes, idea of Maria was stealed from cult of Marina (Aphrodite).

The christian narrative has been an effective way of mentally and spiritually crippling people into accepting a philosophy that is built on fear and counter-intuitive fantasies. Fear of hell and absolute metaphysical confusion mayne, ain't nothing like it to keep the peasants peasantin away, while the actual explanations of the myths have been reserved (still are) to the elite.

>>2175219
A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife. (Leviticus 21:14)

>>2175205
>Jewish Messiah is a human

Jesus is both Son of Man and Son of God; the hypostatic union between Man and God.

As much man as though not God, and as much God as though not man.

The messiah came, almost 2000 years ago.

And he's coming back in a little more than 7 years from now.

I'd say it's time for you to say "blessed is he who comes in the name of YHWH".

>>2175220
None of that is corroborated by any other source and some of it is contradicted in the same source.

>>2175209
You associate young women with sluts. They didn't.

You also err because the prophecy is twofold; a near fulfillment in the child birthed by Isaiah's wife, not a virgin but a young woman, and the child birthed by Mary, a virgin and a young woman. The sign to the world the messiah was born.

The bible is deeper than you can possibly imagine.

>>2175234
>And he's coming back in a little more than 7 years from now

You must be insane if you believe this. What source do you get this from?

>>2175231
If you're not afraid of hell, you either know you're born again and do not face hell, or you are an utter and complete fool.

>>2175236
It's all in the bible.

You could find it in the bible, if you were capable of reading and understanding the bible.

>>2175239
It really isn't that deep.

>>2175240
The fact that the 70th week of Daniel, a period of 7 years, has not yet begun.

And is almost here.

And Jesus will be seen by the entire world descending on the clouds in glory.

>>2175226

>Mary was pregnant without having sex.

And yet הָרָה is masculine, not feminine. It's not "She conceived/will conceived". It's "She has been inseminated".

>>2175232

Since when did priests enter the equation?

>>2175234

>And he's coming back in a little more than 7 years from now.

Adorable. Ever hear of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

>>2175244
It's inspired by God, and as all things of God, it is infinite.

Your grasp on it is very shallow indeed.

>>2175243
Is this projection? You still haven't answered my question.

Though, I'd bet anything that you're wrong. And then what will you do when you find out you are wrong?

>>2175239
Now this is what schizophrenia looks like, kids.

>>2175247
Yes, the Holy Spirit came over Mary and she became pregnant.

Just like Isaiah came over his wife and she became pregnant.

Dual fulfillment so that you can know Isaiah is a prophet of God. Read Isaiah 53. It's all about Jesus.

People who's hope is Jesus Christ are never disappointed.

>>2175250

You assume the bible needs corroboration.

You have no idea who the Holy Spirit is, how he inspired the authors, or how he has maintained the Word of God even unto today.

>>2175248
And since you are speaking so confidently, you should be able to source your claims. So you can prove that a god exists? If not, nobody here has any reason to believe anything you have to say.

>>2175247
An almanah, or a gerusha, or chalalah, or a zonah, these shall he not take; but he shall take a betulah of his own people to wife.

>>2175264

Of course.

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

There you go.

>>2175260
Of couse I don't, because I have not a single reason to believe he exists. Surely you have some proof?

>>2175234
You Christcuck faggots have been claiming dates for your Second Coming since the 7th Century, and not once have any of you been correct. And you expect us to think you're right. Lol no, take a hike.

>>2175269

Yes, the heavens and the earth, which you have observed, are proof of his existence.

So much so that you stand before him "without excuse".

My, if only you knew how bad a day it will be to stand before the judge of the universe "without excuse".

Wait until you find out you're "condemned already".

Ouch.

>>2175268
You people are literally retarded.

>>2175073
If Jesus had a virgin birth, would he not be famous and revered from birth? Exactly when did he learn about his birth?

>>2175272
No, we have not.

Idiots have, and you thought they were Christians. If you read any actual Christian literature, Christians were always looking to the reformation of Israel and the rebuilding of the temple to time the end days. Always.

Oh, hey, one of two of those exist today.

And the second one exists in pieces.

>>2175277

You need to look up "literally" before you use it again in a sentence.

I would counter with "literally believing the father of lies is foolish".

>>2175276
No proof still, just idle threats of damnation. I have received those from Muslims as well, they're just as useless.

>>2175256

In the past, when Isiaih is speaking, hundreds of years before Mary was born.

> Read Isaiah 53. It's all about Jesus.

No, it's all about Jerusalem/Zion, which is explicitly stated in the previous paragraph. And the suffering servant metaphor was never associated with messianism until..... Christians made it up.


>>2175265

And again, why are you talking about the high priest in a discussion about messianism? Do you even understand that they're separate roles?

But we've danced this dance before, and there seem to be other people willing to be your tard wrangler this evening. Good day.

>>2175278
He was, for a minute. Then they had to flee Herod who killed all baby boys born in Bethlehem under the age of 2 and hide out in Egypt until Herod died.

Then they moved to Nazareth, a backwater town that didn't do much except house a Roman garrison.

Jesus grew up poor. Maybe working class poor.

People worship rich people, not poor people who work with their hands.

>>2175285

They're not idle threats, as I am not threatening you, and hell is not an idle anything. Being on fire, in the dark, forever, where the flames never die, and you never lose consciousness.

If you're not afraid of that you're a fool.

>>2175291
Was he an Essene?

>>2175288
Actually, the suffering deity trope was something from Greek mystery religions. The rites of Attis, Orpheus, the Eleusinian mysteries. Very popular during the First Century CE, and likely the inspiration for Christianity's "suffering God" theme

>>2175283
You are not figuratively retarded, you people literally must have a mental disability to believe shit like this and honestly think you are vindicated.

I used "literally" correctly. Perhaps you should take a refresher couse in English.

>>2175288
Yes, so the people could not know if Isaiah was right about a child being given via a virgin, unless he himself was part of the first part of the fulfillment, a child born to him and his wife expectantly.

Near and far fulfillment to put God's seal of approval on the prophet. And because Isaiah's wife had a child after this prophecy, we can know that Jesus was born of a virgin.

Isaiah 53 is all about Jesus.

Israel is always she unless it refers to Jacob. Israel is always she, and the adulterous wife of Jehovah.

>>2175288

You don't have a High Priest. Or a Temple. Or a Tabernacle. Or an altar.

You just have a game some pharisees made up to pretend you're still under the Old Covenant.

You haven't been in touch with God for 2400 years, as a people.

Investigate the panic when the scarlet strand in the Temple failed to ever again turn white after Jesus was crucified.

>>2175288
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

>>2175297
No. John the Baptist, Jesus' cousin, probably had some dealings with the Essenes, but the primary belief of the Essenes was that there would be two messiahs.

One to die for his people, Moshiac ben Joseph, and the second to establish an eternal throne of David's, Moshiac ben David.

Note John the Baptist in prison asked Jesus' followers if there was going to be another messiah, or just him. Jesus said just him.

The Essenes were the "Remember Masada" folks.

>>2175299
Rewritten after Jesus' resurrection.

Stop watching Zeitgeist. It's not a documentary.

>>2175300

My posts are coherent, cogent, communicate my thoughts and beliefs properly, and are sourced on the Word of God.

You are literally a fool for saying there is no God.

How would you know?

>>2175311
Aye, theirs had to perform a sacrifice for himself, and cleanse himself, and then perform a sacrifice with scapegoats for the nation, and that every year. And all that achieved was the atonement of sins; the covering up of sins.

Our High Priest is of a different order, one like the order of Melchizedek. He needed no sacrifice for himself; he is spotless. He performed his sacrifice once for all times. And our sins were not covered over by his sacrifice; they were taken away entirely.

Our unrighteousness went into him, and his righteousness is imputed to us.

As he is in heaven, so are we here on earth.

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>>2175316
That Christianity was influenced heavily by Hellenistic ideas (neo-Platonism, Greco-Roman paganism) is widely accepted by scholars. Christianity undeniably took influence from other mystery cults at the time. It's not "Zeitgeist"-tier shit. The idea of a 'suffering deity' is completely alien to Jewish thought and theology; however, it existed and was quite pervasive in Greek mystery cults.

>>2175339

Christianity is the confession that Jesus is Lord, and the belief that God raised him from the dead.

There's nothing like that before, during or since.

>>2175320
I never did. I just said that you must have some proof if you are making such claims right? Now you're just blatantly lying.

>>2175339
Shouldn't be foreign to them. But then again, they want to stay Jews.

Isaiah 53
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.

All fulfilled literally by Jesus. Struck, tortured, killed, bruised by God Himself and put to grief.

>>2175073
>Why is it so important for Christians to maintain that their Jesus Christ was born of a virgin birth?
Because it's true. /thread

>>2175353

You are a fool for saying there is no God.

Where have you searched?

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>>2175073

The 'virgin birth' is the single biggest misunderstanding people have about Christiainity. As our very own Constantine has taught us, Jesus was born from anal sex.

>>2175362
Where did I ever say that? Show me?

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>>2175325
>>2175341
>>2175360
>>2175361
>>2175362
Can you seriously fuck off? You're not contributing; nobody takes you seriously. So go away: there's a containment board for people like you on Cripplechan.

Go there, and stop annoying the good people here.

>>2175394
t. buttblasted Pharisee

>>2175384

You are a fool for saying there is no God.

Have you even been off-planet?

>>2175394
That's two people.

And for one, no, I will not go away.

Maybe learn to samefag before you start sperging out next time.

>>2175394

I gave a comprehensive, sourced and accurate response to OP's question.

You sperged out.

Which one of us should leave again?

>>2175373
That dude has issues even beyond most of you people.

>>2175073
He had to be born of a virgin so sin couldn't affect him

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>>2175073
>Why is it so important for Christians to maintain that their Jesus Christ was born of a virgin birth?
Because He was. Mary was keeping God's Commandments as best as humanly possible, thus He decided that she was capable to do what Solomon's Temple couldn't do, house God. This, through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, God became Man. He, in His infinite glory, humbled Himself to becoming as His own creation, and a poor carpenter at that. Christ is this fully God and fully human. He bridged the chasm that was between Him and mankind through our sin and fallen nature, giving us everlasting life - defeating death itself via His resurrection. Remember, death is a result of Adam's sin and thus kept us from God. We cannot comprehend God, but through Christ and our efforts to fulfill the Law that Christ gave us, we can know God's grace and be with Him after this cortupted, fallen world. It's not easy, though.. and Salvation is not "a moment" as some Protestants would want you to believe.

>But yet, the notion of birthing a child is to God so obscene that he makes his incarnation be born in an un-natural fashion, rather than simply using the method he himself had created!

Incorrect. As stated above, the Virgin birth allowed God to be fully human without the sin that plagues humanity due to Adam. Christ is the only human to have ever existed outside of sin.

>It seems incredibly arbitrary for God to have spared Jesus the "impurity" of being conceived by the union of egg and sperm, but to have not cared whether his Divine Incarnation shat from his asshole or whether he stank to heaven after days of not bathing in the Judean desert.

This statement has me believe you're a Muslim. Why? Because of their refusal to believe that God in all His Holy and in His infinite Love for us, mankind, that He would humble Himself by becoming man, knowing our suffering, our fallen world, our emotions and sadness. "A mile in our shoes", so to say.

>>2175209
>Daily reminder that the original translation doesn't even state that Mary was a virgin but a young woman. Learn to philology.

Get lost. The Masoritic text is by a millenium newer than the oldest surviving OT text, the Septuagint which is in Greek.
The Masoritic text which you quoted was literally made by Jews to mislead Christians into not believing the divinity of Christ.
Simply put, it's a devious OT revision by the descendents of the Pharisees.
Stop spouting such uninformed shit.

>>2175140
>The passage he's quoting doesn't even mean a "virgin birth", or that it's to happen in the far future; the original Hebrew is quite explicit that she has been inseminated in the past, since it uses a perfect masculine conjugation for the siring, but an imperfect for the giving birth, i.e. she is pregnant right this minute.

Original Hebrew? Where is that? Because the oldest copies we have of it are from the Septuagint, again, which was written in Greek. It's from about 70 learned Jews from the Ptolemic age of Egypt. Hebrew practice was to burn their Book after use, thus why only a very revised and corrupted Masoritic text was created by them and completed around 1000AD.

You're absolutely wrong about your personal interpretation of Mary not being a Virgin, as well:

The Bible calls engaged couples husband and wife before their marriage (Rachel was called the wife of Jacob before marriage by virtue of their engagement in Gn 29:21; see also Dt 22:23, 24). Thus, Joseph is called the husband of Mary, and Mary is called his wife. In Orthodoxy, Joseph is remembered as the Betrothed, pointing out Mary's ever-virginity. (See also Est 2:7).

>>2175758
>Because the oldest copies we have of it are from the Septuagint, again, which was written in Greek.


Actually, the oldest copies we have of it are from the Qumrani collection, with the "Great Isaiah Scroll" being both in Hebrew and considerably older than the Septuagint.

http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah

You will notice that the Qumrani version, is not only older than the oldest surviving Septuagint manuscripts, but is quite possibly older than the actual composition of the Septuagint.

>Hebrew practice was to burn their Book after use,

I have quite literally never heard this before and would like a source, as well as wondering how then, we do have texts from the era.

>thus why only a very revised and corrupted Masoritic text was created by them and completed around 1000AD.

And yet far, far older texts like the Mishnah manage to quote from a very recognizable Masoretic text long before you claim it was composed. Funny how that works, huh?

>The Bible calls engaged couples husband and wife before their marriage (Rachel was called the wife of Jacob before marriage by virtue of their engagement in Gn 29:21; see also Dt 22:23, 24). Thus, Joseph is called the husband of Mary, and Mary is called his wife. In Orthodoxy, Joseph is remembered as the Betrothed, pointing out Mary's ever-virginity. (See also Est 2:7).

What does any of this have to do with

A) Mary supposedly not being a virgin (which, for the record, I never claimed or particularly cared about)

B) Isaiah's prophecy not referring to any of the above, and using a masculine conjugation for the past impregnation, doubly disqualifying Mary from it being about her?

>>2175276
You are deluded, bro

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>>2175090
>Paragraphs of reasoning

>Harps on image.

Sounds like you took a heavy dose of bait

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>>2175132
How dare you not have faith
There were EYE witnesses

EYES my man

EYES

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>>2175421
>not an argument

>>2175920
Pffft

>>2175073
Idunno, when my High School history teacher was describing modern Christianity, he showed a megareverend or some shit.

The most memorable quote was "And the Angel said to Mary: The Spirit of the LORD will come into you."

This prompted the entire room (myself included) to burst into laughter.

>>2175805
Texts that have circulated independently for some time concurrent with the Proto-Septuagint text could be just as ancient as the Proto-Septuagint text itself, but because of the lack of manuscript evidence, we cannot know for sure. In fact, it becomes apparent that the very notion of an “original” text does not exist, because it is impossible to point to any particular point in the development of a book and say that it is “original.”
But again, the Septuagint is brought back as it is complete and verifiable. It's insincere to say that fragments of texts are comparable to a full set of books.

>And yet far, far older texts like the Mishnah manage to quote from a very recognizable Masoretic text long before you claim it was composed. Funny how that works, huh?

If you don't believe it was composed just 1000 years ago, look it up. It's new and revised.

>>2176244
>Texts that have circulated independently for some time concurrent with the Proto-Septuagint text could be just as ancient as the Proto-Septuagint text itself, but because of the lack of manuscript evidence, we cannot know for sure.


But I showed you a manuscript, and what's more, a manuscript that is older than any Septuagint manuscript by several centuries. How can you possibly think the Septuagint is the oldest around?

>In fact, it becomes apparent that the very notion of an “original” text does not exist, because it is impossible to point to any particular point in the development of a book and say that it is “original.”

It's also completely uncontested by anyone that Isaiah was a text in Hebrew long before it was a text in Greek.

> It's insincere to say that fragments of texts are comparable to a full set of books.


It's also very insincere to say that the Great Isaiah Scroll is a "fragment", which is why it's usually billed as the oldest copy of Isaiah.

>If you don't believe it was composed just 1000 years ago, look it up. It's new and revised.

So how did 2nd century Rabbis quote from it?

Discipline?

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Mary has literally called herself a virgin in some of her appearances. Why argue with the woman herself?

>>2175220
Best answer this guy knows his stuff

>>2175908
>is a furfag
>close to God in any way

You will burn when the time comes, you know this, right?

If Jesus isn't of divine heritage his sacrifice couldn't have vicariously atoned for all of humanity, ergo all humans would still be tainted by original sin and Christianity would be illegitimate because humans couldn't save themelves through belief in Jesus

Just my two cents t. don't know that much about theology

>>2177037
You're pretty spot on as far as layman understanding goes.

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>>2176927
I didn't say I was a furfag. I said you were triggered by parrotman.jpg

I was right.

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>>2176893
>appearances
[citation needed]

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>>2177037
>If Jesus isn't of divine heritage his sacrifice couldn't have vicariously atoned for all of humanity

Questions:
1) How does being of divine heritage qualify you for being able to done for all of humanity's sins?
2) Why is sacrifice required to atone for all of humanity's sins?
3) Why does humanity's sins need to be atoned for with divine sacrifice?

These sound like made-up rules. How does pic related result Chad Thundercock being forgiven for adultery 2000 years later?

>>2176911
huhuh ye he right too

thx

i feel validated

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>>2175243
>The bible is right because the bible says so.

You're stubborn I'll give you that.

>>2178504
See
>>2175653

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>>2179036
You're still not explaining anything: just going in circles.

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>>2175073
I want to

Bamp

>>2178504
>1) How does being of divine heritage qualify you for being able to done for all of humanity's sins?

Humanity was fundamentally corrupted by the Fall and therefore unable to do anything to reconcile ourselves to God thus it was necessary for God Himself to do it; you can't clean up a mess with a dirty cloth and you can't make repairs with broken tools.

>2) Why is sacrifice required to atone for all of humanity's sins?

Humanity's sin defiled God's perfect creation which put humanity in debt to God and justice requires that this debt be paid.

>3) Why does humanity's sins need to be atoned for with divine sacrifice?

Humanity is unable to pay back what we owe to God for sinning against Him and therefore only God can save us from receiving our deserved punishment.

>>2180725
You're talking about myth not real life

>>2180843
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Cor 2:14

>>2180858
There's no evidence Paul believed in a literal god-man on Earth named Jesus

>>2180868
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

- Romans 1:1-4

>Son of God
>Jesus Christ our Lord

>>2180889
>RSV
>1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
But in the Greek it uses the word of 'manufactured', the same word Paul uses to describe what god did to Adam

>>2180889
I didn't say he didn't believe in Jesus as a god, I said he didn't believe in a literal god man on Earth. Also, if that's the case, why would Paul have a problem with the worship of the human image and creations (namely humans and animals) if Jesus was a godman or man on Earth just years earlier

>>2180903
>manufactured
Post it

>>2180911
the word usually translated as “born” (genomenon) is not the most unambiguous verb to use for this concept; a form of gennao, to give birth, would have been more straightforward. Instead, Paul uses a form of ginomai, which has a broader meaning of “to become, to come into existence.”

We know people believed Jesus was made directly by god because of the Nicean creed in which it says "Begotten not made"

>>2180910
>I didn't say he didn't believe in Jesus as a god, I said he didn't believe in a literal god man on Earth. Also, if that's the case, why would Paul have a problem with the worship of the human image and creations (namely humans and animals) if Jesus was a godman or man on Earth just years earlier

Christ is exactly that, the God-Man. Fully both. Where do you get the backing to say Paul didn't believe that?

Jews, nor Christians worship "human images and creations". Well, Jew have through history and suffered for that, but that's aside from the point. Christ is God's icon on Earth, as we ate all icons of God since we were created by Hi in His image. However, we don't worship icons, but venerate them to honor that which they represent. Not worship. This is a mistake both Muslims and Protestants make.

>>2180924
Because he doesn't ever make the distinction of Jesus being on Earth

>>2180922
>We know people believed Jesus was made directly by god because of the Nicean creed in which it says "Begotten not made"

Yes, begotten before the ages and time. Eternal, God's Word. Not made or created, which is stated in the Nicene Creed because, as you said, people believed the Arian heresy.

>>2180928
He didn't know Christ before the Resurrection, is that what you're saying?

>>2180932
Begotten means to be born out of procreation, they could have used the word born, not begotten. Paul never once uses the term begotten in his works. The emphasis on made was because people believed Jesus was made by god instead of planted as a seed in Mary

>>2180936
He doesn't make the distinction that anyone knew Christ before the resurrection. He also says he knew of the resurrection through revelation and scripture, why would he need to make that distinction if he knew people who knew Jesus aside from revelation

>>2180903
The person Yeshua ben Yosef was "manufactured" in Mary's womb by the power of the Holy Spirit however this human person was also the incarnate Word (logos) consubstantial with the Father from the beginning before all creation.

>>2180966
There's no mention of any Mary in Paul's letters, bro. You can't just import the Gospels into the letters, you first have to prove they're reliable history

>>2175073
Because myths fall apart upon close scrutiny, one bad apple ruins the whole barrel, and the only way you can prevent that is to weed out people who would be tempted to pick apart the creed by insistence that the convert accept ideas that are ludicrous. If they recite the ridiculous bullshit you just fed them unequivocally, then you can be sure they won't cause your flock any ideological troubles. It's standard priest craft.

>>2180974
Jesus was a literal human being who was "manufactured" in a womb. Paul's usage of that word is referring to Christ's humanity.

What is this unholy union of Christianity and furfaggotry (not that I really care about the latter, but still)?

>>2180943
>Begotten means to be born out of procreation
I'm certain that is not the original Greek meaning nor interpretation. If you want to know the meaning of each line of the Creed, thenot study the Church Fathers that were at both Councils.

>>2180949
You're not understanding Scripture, I believe now you should consult an Orthodox Priest of Monk, because they have devoted their lives to this, unlike us. You have some grave misconceptions and assumptions with no real basis, as revealed by your answer.

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>>2180974
Moreover, aside from my response and advice here >>2182171, you are nit-picking. Read the entire NT and realize it's all connected. What you're doing where you pick and choose in isolation verses is how Protestant heresies and misinterpretation came to what it is today.
You want to read into the answer for yourself regarding St Paul's Letters? Read the following by St John Chrysostom (Google):
>St. John Chrysostom HOMILIES ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS : Index.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0345-0407,_Iohannes_Chrysostomus,_Homilies_on_The_Epistle_To_The_Romans,_EN.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjvwbut-qrRAhUMw4MKHRt1C_AQFggxMAQ&usg=AFQjCNFU0-Q6scASKOWlSeUnsLU0Kx-gEg

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/frmarkdwhite.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/nine-summer-homilies-on-st-pauls-letter-to-the-romans/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwiU99LD-qrRAhXr5oMKHZ4hCv4QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGIIse_OP8Nr-CgdbDIqt_fJDfwAw

>>2182195
Except it isn't connected, Paul looks so far removed from the Gospels that you can't say that he believed the same things as the people who wrote the Gospels, whoever they were.

>>2175073

>I'm beginning to think that the idea that his mother Mary was a virgin was borrowed from the pagan traditions of the Romans and Greeks

this isn't exactly a new idea and catholic theologians write about this literally all the time

>>2182195
That first link is filled with Christian mythography, not actual history

The second link, we don't actually know what happened to Paul because Acts wasn't reporting history, they were writing more mythography

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>>2182769
>mythology
Not at all, it's anot analysis by a great individual devoted to the subject matter at hand. I provided it in order that you may gain a better understanding. The key difference is that he devoted his life to Christ, and knew the ins and outs of Christianity and Scripture and didn't work in isolation. You, however, are approaching from a Muslim or Atheist mindset insolation, with maybe a very small fraction of your time devoted to this. Moreover, being just a few centuries from the Apostolic Age and with an Empire of resources at his disposal, I'd take his surviving written analysis over your posting on 4chan. Again, you have the resources for a deeper understanding yet it's apparent you're not here to learn or undwrstand, but only to draw people away from Christ. May you open your heart to Christ for the sake of your eternal soul, friend. Life is so short, and we can't comprehend how long eternity really is.. in which what we do and believe in this life determines our place in eternity. Pray it's with God and His love.

>>2183053
>This person with an agenda to promote the historical Jesus knows about the history of Paul better than you because he used Acts to support his argument
Kill yourself, honestly

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>>2180858
1 Cor 2:14
basically can be boiled down to
"Guys if they don't believe what we've taught you, they JUST DON'T GET IT. They'll never get it, because they're not special like you. We have the smartest people."

>>2180725
>Humanity was fundamentally corrupted
assumption
>by the Fall
assumption, myth
>therefore
You're using that word wrong. Here:
2+2 = 4 "therefore" 4-2=2
makes a lot more logical sense than
>Humanity was fundamentally corrupted by the Fall and "therefore" unable to do anything to reconcile ourselves to God

In this statement alone you are assuming multiple things.
1) God.
2) Humanity as God's creation
3) "Fall" event scheduled by God for no apparent reason.
4) Humanity corrupted by God's deliberate design flaws and thus in debt to God
5) Only God can pay the debt
6) The only way God can pay the debt is by incarnating himself into a human body and getting killed by the Roman government at an arbitrary point in history.
7) Humanity still assholes afterwards but GUESS WHAT god's gonna come back with the sacrificial superpowers he gave for no reason.

FUCKING DELUSIONAL

The list of random and pointless assumptions rooted in cultural myth goes on and on, none of them ever being given context or elaboration.

Oh, but according to this convenient verse of propaganda from my propaganda manuscript that says I'm not allowed to value other source material

The burden isn't on me to explain myself to the bewildered nonbeliever, but the burden is on the nonbeliever to stop caring and do what my book says

Well isn't that fucking convenient?

And if the nonbeliever can't do that? Well it's just because he's fundamentally flawed and doomed to fail.

Good thing I have all the solutions! The End!

You people drive me nuts and having to live on a planet with you fuckheads in charge makes me want to pic related. You are oppresively nonsensical. You cannot be reasoned with. I'd rather you just be murderous assholes with clear motives.

>>2183140
>You people drive me nuts and having to live on a planet with you fuckheads in charge makes me want to pic related. You are oppresively nonsensical. You cannot be reasoned with. I'd rather you just be murderous assholes with clear motives.

Preach it. I used to try to be open-minded about Christianity before I started posting on /his/. Now I find the fundamental precepts of the religion fucking appalling and consider the whole mess just insane rubbish.

>>2183053
Ehrman came from a Christian background and ultimately concluded that the historical Jesus wasn't much like the scriptures.

>>2183180
He can't even properly answer the question of what Jesus did to be worshiped as a god

>>2183140
>"Guys if they don't believe what we've taught you, they JUST DON'T GET IT. They'll never get it, because they're not special like you. We have the smartest people"
Gnosticism isn't Christianity. You should do actual research as to why the letter was written in the first place.

The rest of your post is just incoherent babby posting. Your life must be empty, I feel sad for you.

>>2183954
>le your life must be so empty because you don't believe in this thing that makes people feel good but ultimately means nothing

>>2184055
>being this bitter
Go get laid. You must be one of the immigrants from reddit.

>>2184081
Honestly, kill yourself for tryna guilt people because of not believing in any gods. We don't live in some fantasy world where a 'creator' exists solely for us as comfort and nothing else. I hope you get murdered soon

>>2184195
Holy bible actually has things in it against idolatry..they're purposely misrepresenting it in a "cool" way of saying read it for yourself

>>2178463
that's nice """"christian"""" fur

it's your one intransigent life to spend in Satan's arms

>>2183954
>le schisms I dislike aren't Christianity

>I have a personal hotline with g-d, he told me yesterday those mean [sect I personally dislike] were barbarians

face it lol you just parrot councils from fifteen hundred years ago as if you retards can agree about ANYTHING RELATED TO YOUR DEITY

>>2184377
Other than the fact that he died and we wouldn't live in the same wonderful world that we do had he not

>>2184195
>>2184354
>>2184388
*wink*

>>2184195
>We don't live in some fantasy world where a 'creator' exists solely for us as comfort and nothing else. I hope you get murdered soon
You're right, we live in the real world, a world which was created but us fallen due to sin. God doesn't exist "for our comfort ", we exist to give Him praise.
I hope He comes into your life.
God bless!

>>2184354
What?

>>2184377
>I have a personal hotline with g-d, he told me yesterday those mean [sect I personally dislike] were barbarians

>implying I'm some snowflake Protestant

You're losing your nerve because I called you out on the nihilistic life you've made for yourself. God is waiting for you, if only your passions didn't blind you so.

You really have no idea about history or the Ecumenical Councils.. read a book, or the Internet since you're on it all day.

>>2184531
You're speaking in a dialect basically only known among people who've read the book or used in the book...aka cool kid club language

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>>2175102

Yeah Judaism borrowed a bunch of shit from other religions that were around before it actually.

Horus was one of the many Egyptian Gods (3100 B.C.)
He had 12 disciples.
One was born of a virgin in a cave.
Like Jesus, his birth was announced via a star.
And three wise men showed up!
He was baptized when he was 30 by Anup the Baptizer.
He rose a guy from the dead and walked on water.
Lastly, he was crucified, buried like Jesus in a tomb, and resurrected.

Buddha, (563 B.C.)
Healed the sick
Walked on water.
Fed 500 men from one basket of cakes.
Taught a lot of the same things Jesus taught, including equality for all.
He spent three days in jail.
Was resurrected when he died.

Mithra, an ancient Zoroastrian deity with similarities to Jesus (2000 B.C.)
Virginal birth on December 25th.
Swaddled and laid in a manger.
Tended by shepherds in the manger.
He had 12 companions (or disciples).
Performed miracles.
Gave his own life to save the world.
Dead for three days, then resurrected.
Called “the Way, the Truth and the Light.”
Has his own version of a Eucharistic-style “Lord’s supper.”

Krishna, (around 3000 B.C.)
A Hindu God.
Born after his mom was impregnated by a God.
Angels, wise men, and shepherds were at his birth.
Guess what gifts they gave him? Gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
A jealous bad guy ordered the slaughter of all newborns, just as happened with Jesus.

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>>2184780

>>2184854
I'm just saying people might not think Christians are such a joke if they were more upfront...took me going to prison and the bible study area was the only place i could go with my flight risk that could go outside for me to get into out

>>2184851
>he doesn't realise that Zeitgeist is a mockumentary

>>2184876
It is upfront, you know that. This is 4chan, not real life interaction. I mentioned earlier that for those actually looking into Christianity and not looking to just argue, go check out an Orthodox Church or whatever is closest. In your case it was a Bible study group. I'm glad you went and continued. Also glad you're out of prison; I hope you dedicate yourself more to God, in time.

>>2184908
Yeah, but what if we wanna be like you?

>>2184912
Like me? You're joking.

>>2184955
No, you at least seem like you might understand something greater than yourself and you didn't even hesitate to say you're glad I'm out off prison etc etc...why wouldn't we?

>>2184897

Are you saying Christianity is a mockumentary?

Cause what I listed does have legends of all those with virgin births.

It is necessary for Jesus to be virgin born as his standard is humanly unachievable, retard. That's the point.

Every piece of Christian doctrine is multi-faceted and interconnected, all forming together, making sense when put in view as a whole.

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>>2184966
I'm no one, no better than anyone else. Best advice I can give is what I stated earlier.
We've all hit our rough spots. I could look up some nearby Orthodox Churches or Monastaries if you give me a general nearby city.
Also, I know nothing, I'm simple. I was regretably an atheist for 14 years.

>>2185176

Um. Correct me if I am wrong desu.

But can't you inject a virgin woman with a turkey baster full of seed and she'll technically be a virgin when giving birth?

I mean unless its possible to lose your virginity to inanimate objects... Then well I guess there are no virgins on 4chan.

>>2185194
13/f/cali

>>2185176

Excuse me, but there's something I've never quite understood.


Jesus was sinless, right? And the New Covenant didn't take effect until he died, right? So that while he was alive and incarnate, the Old Covenant, the Mosiatic one was still in force, right?

So how can he be sinless when the Gospels (Well, the Synoptic ones, John paints it a bit differently) directly record him failing to bring his Paschal sacrifice in his last year and dragging his disciples along with him to show up at some guy's house and eat their lamb, when they weren't present or thought of at the offering, in direct violation of the then extant Law?

>>2175090
First post best post.

>>2185220
Sin is doing something you're ashamed of

>>2185230

So about Genghis Khan....

>>2185244
A martyr for a losing side

>>2185204
? I'm a former military 27 year old Texan.
How can I help?

>>2185285
John 3:12

>>2185305
>If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:12 KJV

Good, the whole Chapter is a great one, let alone the Gospel of St John.
It's funny, Nicodemus' questions still get asked today. If someone does this and you recognize it, shoe them in the Gospel Christ's own answer to their very question. I had this happen with curious Muslims.. specifically:
>Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:4-5 KJV

>>2185340
Phew..good thing I'm Jewish

>>2185450
>good

>>2185601
>duplicitous

What'd Jesus do for the twenty or so years not described in the New Testament? Someone in another thread mentioned India and something about how the Lord's Prayer being some sort of meditation or something something chakra energy hippie jibberish from Tibetan or Indian influence.

>>2186853
*eastern native American influence

>>2175073
Fuck your wall of text, post more of that bird.

>>2186853

While we'll never know for certain, he was probably studying at some sort of Jewish academy for at least some if not most of that time.

>>2175260
Don't you mean She?

All titles for the Holy Spirit are rendered in the feminine, whether we're talking Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.

>>2175264
Not the same guy, but I'ma give this a shot.

Of course God doesn't exist; if God existed God would be some created thing, rather than the Source of Thing-ness.

"He who says there is no God, without having defined God in a complete and absolute manner, simply talks nonsense. I wait for his definition, and when he has set this forth after his own fashion, I am certain, beforehand, of being able to say to him, "I agree with you, there is no such God"; but that God is certainly not my God. If he says to me: "Define your God," I should reply, "I will take good care to do nothing of the kind, for a God defined is a God dethroned." 1 Every positive definition is deniable, the Infinite is the undefined. "I believe only in matter,"

p. 61

another will tell me, but what is matter? In surgery they give that name to excretions, and one might say in philosophy, somewhat paradoxically, that matter is the excretion of thought. The materialists fully deserve to be paid off with this somewhat coarse and Carnivallic definition, they who declare thought the excretion of the material brain, without realising that this admirable and passive instrument of the workings of the human soul is the masterpiece of a thought, which is not ours.

If I could define God, in a certain and positive manner, I should cease to believe in God, I should know what he is, but not being able to know this, I simply believe that he exists, because it is impossible for me not to conceive a directive thought, in this eternally living substance that peoples infinite space."

>>2175073
>the notion of birthing a child is to God so obscene that he makes his incarnation be born in an un-natural fashion

Stop it

>>2189080
Yes, the word used is feminine in Hebrew and Greek, however, it'd be retarded to equate this sexually.

>>2189144
Why's that?

How is this more retarded than interpreting masculine references to God as referring to physical sex?

>>2189163
Because sexuality has to do with human nature, not divine. Grammatical gender has no direct correlation to masculinity or femininity of the thing that the word represents.
Further, if you want to educate yourself rather than post on 4chan and look cool, you can read about this topic since it was discussed millenia ago. Talk to ame Orthodox priest and a Rabbit to better understand.
Thanks.

>>2189238
But anon how would he communicate with a Rabbit? You're setting him up for failure.

>>2189242
*Rabbi

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>>2189398
*

>>2184851
>Horus
Stopped reading right there.
Zeitgeist is literally full of misinformation.

Bumpo

>>2190641
He's a fucking disinformation agent, bro

>>2184531
How do you figure it was created? Everything came by natural means

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>>2184366
Bro, after all these posts you still think I was OP? I only ever pointed out that you ignored OPs post to harp on his image.

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>>2184851

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>>2184851
>Yeah Judaism borrowed a bunch of shit from other religions that were around before it actually.

True!

>Everything else

Zesus Geist, Not This Again!

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>>2194009
Saved.

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>>2194011
Zeus goose

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>>2194164

>>2194166
Soooo...no lightning bolt sodomy then?

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>>2194186

>>2194198
...pleeeease?

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>>2194202

>>2194208
Joke's on you, I'm not even into anal.

>>2184851
Wow, its almost like religions serve to teach people esoteric truths that transcend dogmas.

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>>2176927
>he believes in hell