Explain to me why a massive surveillance state is bad. Protip:

because it goes by the assumption of the guilty until proveb innocent which is agaisnt the ethics of our justice system, hence people oppose this contradiction

The power of surveillance inevitably is a corrupting factor and not a moral force for good. It caters to citizens seeking to turn on their neighbors and destroys any sense of sanctity for the individual.

Fuck off, comrade.

>>2151373
Reading your emails and keeping track of your movements does no such thing.

>>2151382
why would they need to keep track of what I'm doing unless they're assuming I'm doing illegal activities, especially if it's without my permission

those who trade liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both

authoritarians belong in the trash

>>2151379
>cameras on every corner and gps trackers in every car necessarily leads to citizens denouncing and imprisoning each other without due process
'no'

>>2151388
>empty reddit tier quotes from 250 years ago
Not an argument

>>2151391

Yes it does.

It fucking always happens.

State sponsored authoratarianism leads to scapegoating and the whittling away of our judicial protections. It literally happens in Russia to this very day.

>>2151353
Well which do you want, an explanation or an argument?

Someone explaining that it's bad because they have been given a set of civic rights that excludes it seems a good enough 'explanation' to me, even if I'm not convinced of their opinion.

>>2151353
It's a massive drain on resources and just because you have the evidence doesn't necessarily mean you'll find the crime-even women who were raped on camera still get defense lawyers claiming they were lying, for example.

>>2151420
>wahhhhh muh Russia
oh the country that's always had a weak and corrupt judicial anyway?

Great argument.

There is literally nothing wrong with chipping everyone, a database that contains everyone's DNA, moving on to a cashless currency, algorithms scanning all emails and putting cameras everywhere. It is 2016. Time to fight crime with modern tools.

>>2151450
AM I BEING DETAINED??

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>>2151450

>denounces things as non arguments
>uses current year meme
>there is literally nothing wrong with any of this whilst not arguing why there is nothing wrong with it
>sage

>>2151457
No citizen. Your chip signature was not registered at the scene of the crime nor was your DNA there either. You may go on with your merry way. Remember to report crimes anonymously with your smart phone using the CrimDetec™ app.

>libretardians consider this oppressive

>>2151450
if you're so worried about crime why not put everyone in cryogenic sleep
:thinking:

>>2151353
Really, we should just kill everyone, then there is no more crime.

>>2151510
>lmao I'll respond with some absurb bullshit non sequitur that'll show him humanity is horrible they should just put us out of our misery amirite xD

>>>/r/politics

>>2151524
Not an argument.

>>2151528
Not an argument.

>>2151534
Not an argument.

>>2151400
first you need to field a positive argument for a surveillance state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof#Shifting_the_burden_of_proof

>inb4 I was just baiting

we know

>>2151539
nyc is crawling with cameras it's practically impossible to get away with a crime these days there. they convict people by literally piecing together footage from security cameras in private stores and traffic cameras

with more tech it will get even harder, spefically chipping everyone and keeping everyone's DNA in a database

boom you just got #btfo

>>2151536
Not an argument.

>>2151560
Not an argument.

>>2151558
That's not a positive argument, that's predicting the future.

Otherwise known as

not an argument :^)

Sad!

>>2151558
Source?

>>2151558
seems like you're pulling out 2 factors with a slight link and implying one causes the other
I'd also like to see proof on there being more cameras and more crimes being stopped

>>2151571
>If you stick your dick in that blender it will be a bad thing!
>(You): huttrr nod an argument stop predicting da future

>>2151590
Not an argument.

>>2151592
Not an argument.

>>2151590
Def. not an argument

>>2151596
Not an argument.

>>2151592
>>2151596
>>2151599
>>2151601
Is this the power of libertarian intellectuals?

>>2151606
naa

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Faggot OP isn't even trying.

>don't meme me
>nothing but meme responses

Is the goverment as it is right now perfect?
Will it forever be?
Most likely you agree that the answer to this question is no. Any functional democracy has the ability to change in order to go with the time. Be it for good or bad.

If the latter happens it is in your interest for meetings and communication to happen between citizens without goverment knowlege.
Many major changes in history were only possible because the people could communicate without their leaders knowing of it.

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It all boils down to how much a society can tolerate minimal surveillance. A society of masculine/mature men can tolerate it while a society of absurdly spoiled/feminine numales addicted to diluted anti-conceptional hormones cannot.

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>>2151657
so we have to be at the mercy of criminal gangs roving our streets at night and Muslim terrorists plotting to shoot up our schools all because a bunch of redditors are insecure about their dick pics on their smart phone and don't want some guy at the NSA to see them?

really electrifies my circuits

>>2151665
>minimal

>>2151670
These problems wouldn't even exist in an armed society of non-numales and you know it.

>>2151670
I don't know of a country where redditors hold such an influence.

>>2151353
Because it hurts my feefees and yes my feefees are important. I'm not even being sarcastic, I don't feel comfortable when some Indian neckbeard has a complete access to all my data.

>>2151353
Because governments are composed of humans and humans can be corrupt.

>>2151670
>>2151665
not an argument

>>2151686
Jennifer Lawrence please go, nobody masturbated to your fappening pics anyway

>>2151670
I think it's better to remove all niggers and muslims from the nation rather than having people monitor what I masturbate to.

Because of the lack of personal freedom and the power of the state.

If we wanted socialism we would move to a socialist country.

>>2151696
I think that is in direct conflict with the Constitution.

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>This thread in my first ten minutes on /his/
oh dear.

Here is the answer OP.
Total surveillance leads to corruption of established powers over rising ones.
>Doxxing anti-establishment political figures
>Blackmailing anti-establishment political figures
>Blackmailing citizens of any caliber to bend to the will of whoever happens to be in charge of this surveillance department

This all seems fine if you never commit a crime that is damaging to your reputation. But let's say a person commits a crime in their youth and does time in prison. That individual is open to having this crime haunt them for the rest of their life despite having served their time and receiving forgiveness from all related parties. (aka total bullshit) All this is goes only one way, of course.

Also the inherent risks behind having massive data centers full of people's information. It all becomes Watch_Dogs.

potential for misuse

>>2151707
As is mass surveillance.

>>2151705
wtf does surveillance have to do with socialism?

America has a more sophisticated surveillance apparatus today than the USSR could have ever dreamed of

This is rush Limbaugh tier understanding of politics...

>>2151718

Really? So you are telling me that the U.S. in 2016 with all the latest technology have a more sophisticated surveillance apparatus than a piece of shit communist shithole had in the 80s?

Wow that really made my brain go into overload.

>>2151728
It almost as if surveillance isn't a unique property of socialism.

Really mashes your potatoes doesn't it?

>>2151450
Russia has cameras everywhere due to having police as corrupt as American police.
>Non argument contained

>>2151735

It's almost like surveillance is a must in a socialist society, otherwise the state can not control its subordinates, almost like it's anti-capitalism in its very nature.

>>2151742
lmao what does this post even mean kiddo

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>>2151746

That you should go back to /r/BernieSanders and never come back.

>>2151750
Not an argument

>>2151353

Because you're not the one who gets to decide if you "have nothing to hide." There are plenty of people who would love to use what you do and say in private against you.

>>2151754

Why would I try to argue a non-argument in the first place?

>>2151742
kinda crazy then, how a capitalist country has more sophisticated surveillance despite supposedly being dedicated to preventing unlawful searches of it's citizens. Why should better technology be cited as the reason for this, when surveillance is widely opposed in this country in the first place?

>>2151759
lmao how are they gonna use the fact that Angela white is my favorite porn star against me? And who is gonna do it? Simply pass a law stating information gathered can only be used in court for the purpose of conviction of a crime.

Lmao get a grip

>>2151765
>

>>2151761

It's almost like in a capitalist country, things move forward, things such like technology which helps you if you want to have surveillance.

Because any corrupt state will have to control its citizens, or it will lose its power.

>>2151760
Not an argument.

This is 4chan kiddo, reddit may be more your speed

>>2151707
And? OP said constitution is irrelevant in this debate so I'm following his guidelines.

>>2151771
So capitalism leads to corruption?

Not really sure what you're saying here.

>>2151353
>statists think people can't be trusted
>so everyone needs to be under constant surveillance
>by certain people
>who can be trusted

>>2151780

No, power leads to corruption. However, a capitalist society does not need corruption in order to furthers its existance whereas a socialist society depends on it.

>>2151765
>Simply pass a law
>This will stop information being "leaked"

>>2151785
Literally not an argument, just buzzwords and circular logic.

What do you mean by surveillance?

You mean cameras in every street and public spaces? Because you'd need to be an idiot not to want those, it is actually great for helping solve violent crime.

You mean the government being able to, through the Judiciary, solicit my IP and physical address so they can trace me if I do something criminal like CP or whatever on the internet? You'd need to be an idiot not to want those too.

You mean the government reading my mail, keylogging my computer and other things in that line, through purely administrative action? That is shitty because it is too easily used against political opponents if the government decides to act that way.

>>2151790
It's like he's been asleep for the past ~4 years or so, lmao.

Snowden sure paid attention to that law!

>>2151790
Do you trust your mail man not to steal your gift cards your grandma sends you in the mail?

Do you trust your town police man not to blow you away because he's having a bad day?


Well congratulations, you can trust an intelligence agency to spy on you as preventative measure to prevent crime syndicates and terror cells gaining power

>>2151786
How have you arrived to this conclusion? I mean, don't get me wrong here, I oppose surveillance whole-heartedly, probably quite a bit more than most here. I don't think, for example, the government has the right to issue warrants on a location based on an IP address, for example, because the person committing fraudulent activity may or may not actual live near that location.

>>2151805
I don't trust either of those, are you retarded?

>>2151814
Well maybe you should take your schizophrenia medications then.

>>2151810

Because a capitalist society is not dependent on a large powerful state whereas socialism is directly dependent on it. The smaller the state, the better for capitalism and vice versa, the bigger the state the better for socialism.

>>2151835
Not an argument.

>>2151837
I guess that's why Somalia is a capitalist powerhouse

rofl

>>2151846
Somalia is ancap though.

>>2151846

What does Somalia have to do with anything?

>>2151353
>Prove a negative
Not how it works, dickhead. You prove that surveillance is good, and then I'll attempt to refute your arguments while supplying new arguments of my own.

Oh, and just for flavor
>Muh suhcureeetee is not an argument

>>2151792
I'm glad you finally understand statism

>>2151851
They have a small state. The Federal Government of Somalia, you see, is a republic. It consists of democratically elected representatives. This government does not have very much power, so it should be good for capitalism. Somalia is capitalist, after all.

>>2151854
>asking for an argument why something is bad means you think it's good

What school for disabled autistics did you graduate from?

>>2151866

Yes of course, because that is how the world works. If state is small, country should be a really strong capitalist country, just like that.

>>2151765
>Simply pass a law

This is your problem. You are viewing the issue as if you are the one making laws. Of course unlimited power sounds great if you're the one who has it. But it could just as easily be your worst ideological enemy.

>>2151353
>It costs a lot of money and drains resources
>Gives the government too much power over citizens
There you go, comrade.

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>>2151805
The postman and the policeman do occasionally do those things though. The reason we still hold trust is that there is a visible system of oversight for those people when they fuck up. How can the public tell if what is being gathered about is being used properly? How do I know that something unpleasant but not illegal will not be used against me? Intelligence services can do a lot in the name of national security (and for themselves), just ask pic related.

I'm sure you would support the allowances of backdoors for encryption then for the purpose of security as well.

>>2151884
>The smaller the state, the better for capitalism
Moving the goalposts, I see.

Your question is based on the assumption that the government starts out with and possesses every possible power unless otherwise demonstrated, when the correct assumption is that the government deserves no powers except those which can be explicitly justified. Thus, rather than automatically assuming that the government has the right to spy on people and asking others to disprove this assertion, it falls on you and the government to justify this right in the first place.

tl;dr: burden of proof is on you

>>2151670
Germany, france and every other nation in Europe that has had a terror attack already knew about their terrorists, but they did nothing, chances are it was the same in burgerland

nanny states and nanny policies are results of an effeminate population

>>2151665
start livestreaming your life for us all days all weeks and if you don't you're an idiot as you're not prepared to do what you're proposing

>>2151906

When did I ever say that if state is small, the country will automatically become a successful capitalist state?

I said that a capitalist country will do much better if the state is smaller, just like the socialist country would deem it more beneficial if the state was big and powerful.

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>>2151353
Because there would be anarachy if everyone was aware of the wrongs we all constantly commit.

Imagine the size of the police force if every single crooked/dirty/over zealous cop was removed at once.
Same in politics, shop workers, car salesmen, accountants, soldiers.

The world would come to a grinding halt, and be objectively worse for the few "decent" people left.
Sometimes the morally right choice is not the best one.

>>2151915
>start livestreaming your life for us all days all weeks and if you don't you're an idiot as you're not prepared to do what you're proposing
This is a great proposal. I'd like advocates of government surveillance to voluntarily turn over all their electronic information to the government.

>>2151919
>The smaller the state, the better for capitalism
Somalia is a small state, therefore, it should have a much better capitalist system than a large state, like, say, China. An actual socialist country, doing better than this small state.

>>2151927

Indeed, if Somalia was to fix its shit and become capitalist I believe it would do great, much better than China, which is not doing very well under its current communist regime.

>>2151936
>which is not doing very well under its current communist regime.
>China
>Not being economic gods
They're the fucking worst at a lot of things but you can't fucking deny that china is the mecca of cheap shit that's bought by everyone

>>2151936
>Somalia is doing better than China
ok.

I'm going to leave now.

>>2151798

This.

Also, a lot of people don't realize what is big data and what states can do with it, it gets kind of scary when you dig it up. Some tools like Palantir are pretty impressive in that regard.

>>2151943
>China
>ecomomic gods

Far from it, which you would know if you had even the slightest idea of what is going on in China.

Now I do agree that China could be considered the "mecca of cheap shit", but that has nothing to do with Chinese economics.

>>2151950

Who are you quoting?

>>2151950
>>2151956
>>2151936
Oh alright, I apologize. Disregard >>2151950

>if Somalia was to fix its shit and become capitalist
in what way is Somalia not capitalist?

>>2151479
This post really made me think

>>2151353
It's the only argument needed, you double nigger.

I bet all the faggots itt use Gmail.

It's evil when da gubmen reads my email but it's okay when private corporations do it to sell me dragon dildos and anime pillows!


lmao

>>2152009

If they do, it is because of their own will. They know what Google could do do they decide to use Gmail.

Nice argument though.

>>2151484
Why not just kill every single human being if you value the law more than life or freedom? Then there'll be no crime.

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>>2152020
>Why not just kill every single human being?
>Then there'll be no crime.
Huh, that... That makes a lot of sense, actually.
>t. judge Death

>>2151450
Russia has dashcams too because otherwise no one will take their claims seriously. Doesn't mean we should all have them.

>>2151590
Well if you don't turn it on...

>>2151709
Also it's a drain on resources and pointless if people refuse to use the evidence at their disposal. More evidence doesn't cure negligence.

>>2151353
The fact that it didn't prevent things like the Boston bombing or those two sandniggers who killed a bunch of people in California makes it a retarded nuisance. I literally fund a bunch of nerds with my tax dollars to watch what porn I jerk off to.

>>32467696
I would be fine with it if it was set up like The Machine from Person if Interest.
A benevolent, Artifical Super Intelligence, closed off and encrypted from the outside and only spits out a social security number of someone attempting to conduct a premeditated act of terrorism.

there should be mutual trust between the government and a populace

Troll thread with faggot molyneux OP.

Here goes anyway: you don't have the right to put a chip in my physical body to preemptively "stop crime;" you are the criminal by your iniative. Your premise is flawed because you assume the state to be a monolithic pillar of benevolence without repercussions for the general citizens quality of life as it increases it's own power.

T. Known Boss

>>2151353
What if an anti surveillance party takes power, recognizes you as their enemy because if your many posts, and releases all your incest porn viewing history to politically neutralize you?

>>2151387
Precautions against the possibility of illegal activity=/= assuming guilt

Nigger they literally released a whole movie about this called Minority Report

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>>2151353
I want to fuck that gorilla.

>>2152587
It assumes you're going to conduct illegal activity.
On top of that people have a basic God given right to privacy to prevent abuse by governments

Try reading a history book about Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany.

Try reading a book about ethics, bud.

>>2151353
if you could prove to me there is such thing as an incorruptible authoritarian government that will by the purity of its nature perform better and more humanly than an ideal democracy, go for it, until then
>>2152726
>>2152681
they got it

Because it opens up the ability for governments to commit more false-flag attempts to justify actions.

If the government has everybody's DNA, they can false-flag anything they want. If they have everyone's CCTV footage, they can false-flag anything they want.


If you agree that the government misuses your tax money, why the fuck would you give them your DNA and all of your daily activities? Are you a retard?


>be me
>be protestor
>government is murdering dissidents and people criticising them on the street
>government uses AI technology to find out who i am through facial recognition
>they have my address and DNA on a file
>use this DNA and other false evidence to get a warrant for my arrest
>dead of night
>door broken down
>mask put over my face
>get sent to an underground prison no one knows about
>all of this because i peacefully protested
>all of this because some retard on /his/ wanted to stop a non-existent crime gang

>>2152754
>hurrr giving the government the tools to be able to get a 100% conviction rate for rapes and murders means they'll frame me for protesting non organic yogurt being sold on campus


Grow up child

>>2152783
not him, but
>thinks government officials won't use this for political gain

>>2152783
You actually think government officials won't use that power to ensure re-election or to grasp further power?


Thanks for proving you don't know any history!

Retard!

>>2152783
epic strawman

>>2151353
Depends.
Are you part of the governors, or of the governed?

>>2152734
How do you feel about
>>2152354

>>2152808
Retarded.

How are you going to know the system is working properly if you can't decrypt it to make sure it is functioning properly?

This thread is dumb for two reasons


1)Mass surveillance doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with a totalitarian state of affairs where all due process is thrown out of the window and you end up in a secret prison without a trial (most criticisms itt drag this into the criticism of surveillance)
2)If you're living in the USA or Western Europe you're already living under mass surveillance between all of the security cameras you show up on and the NSA spying, the only thing missing is a DNA database for everyone (not just convicted felons)

>>2152808
look if you can pull out god out of your ass and prove to me that god is the best government possible (more intelligent, more ethic, more benign than any human or group of humans) i'm all for it, but that's a pretty tall order

>>2152814
That doesn't matter, retard because it still means in a country with due process that information can eb manipulated if the security services have access to that information beforehand such as DNA.


It also forgets that people actually on the Jury can be bribed or blackmailed by the government because, oh, guess what! The government has all their DNA and info, including all their text messages ready to use as a bribe.

Kill yourself, you're an authoritarian retard who actually thinks subjugating his entire nation of millions of people is worth it just to stop a couple of dumb muslims.

a non-utopian society would use it to keep itself from being overthrown or changed, maintaining itself as non-utopian. a utopian society would have no use for it. it is only possible in a self-perpetuating dystopia.

>>2151353
An over powered state is good as long as the virtue of a state is equally protected and legislated. Given that the leader of a state can void the virtue of a state of virtue while retaining legislation the people agree to under the proviso that the state represents them the indroduction of such legislation is ill advised.

>>2152813
For the premises of this argument, the machine is never wrong.
It detects all acts of pre-meditated murder that would cause a massive loss of life and it would spit out a social security number of the perpetrator.
>>2152819
I did not say an artifical super intelligence would run the government, I strictly oppose that, actually the antagonists in the show are the ones who want that.
The series posits lots of the ethical questions of the machine or an ASI that would control the world, I suggest you watch it.
>Calling it God
Have you watched Person of Interest?
>>2152819
>>2152813
You didn't answer the question.
Would you be okay with an entirley encrypted Artifical Super Intelligence having the ability to observe the public and private information of individuals, and assuming it's never wrong, provide the government with the pre-meditated soon to be perpetrators SSN number?
I'm not saying this ASI would control the government or anything more but watch people, and provide the information to prevent terror attacks.

>>2152838
Useless argument.


You have ignored every criticism in this thread without any reply and have chosen instead to create a dumb unachievable thought experiment.

Kill yourself, brainlet.

>>2152838
>For the premises of this argument, the machine is never wrong.
>It detects all acts of pre-meditated murder that would cause a massive loss of life and it would spit out a social security number of the perpetrator.
Your argument has nothing to do with reality if it is based on an impossible hypothetical scenario, and so I will disregard it.

It is impossible for the robot to be closed off from any outside attention as it has to be given information in order to work, information that can be exploited by humans, or means to get the information.

>>2152842
there have been no arguments

just libretardian "am I being detained" fear mongering about secret prisons and blackmail

>>2152845
If that is the case then how come you haven't replied to any of them.

Enjoy your dumb thought experiment and continual strawmans, brainlet!

Don't bother replying, oh wait, I know you won't anyway. Idiot.

>>2152847
You sound angry. I'd be angry too if I didn't have an argument.

>>2152850
Epic memes, bro.

Keep replying to me, I know it makes you mad being btfo every time or try replying to the dozens of posts throughout the thread you have ignored.

http://pastebin.com/3yQwjCJR

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>>2152844
>>2152842
It's not a useless argument you're just being massive obnoxious faggots.
I didn't ignore any "criticism" I further explained the hypothetical scenario.
>>2152847
Hey smart ass
>>2152845
is someone else.

I think it's important to discuss the role of ASI's, their ethics, and how some with specific tasks such as the one I've outlined would be in violation of individual rights or not.

>>2151353
Because it should go both ways. If 'they' know what I am doing I should know what 'they' are doing.

>>2152853
404 argument not found

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>>2152853
There have been only 4 posts in response to my discussion of the theoretical ASI and I've answered all of them.
Albeit both were filled with frothing "GOVERNMENT GET OUT REEEEE" autism.

>>2152860
>i hate libertarians
>ill keep posting an anarcho capitalist meme

Really makes ya think

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>>2152864
Is there an argument in this post?

Looks like there isn't!

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>>2152864

>>2152838
>Have you watched Person of Interest?
nope, but a God, of the christian myth, would be the perfect all-seeing government. it's means of surveillance cannot be interfered or tampered with, works 24/7 without diverting staff from productive activities to man the surveillance machinery, and it's by definition incorruptible, benevolent, and undying
an entity like could totally create a benign surveillance state, anything else has a lot to prove, specially humans or human-made systems

>>2152866
Woah, let's cut out the memes for a sec, sauce?

>>2152868
It's funny because one of the characters refers to The Machine as God (even in its restricted form).
But you still didn't answer my question.
If the machine as I described existed, would you have an issue with it?

>>2151353
desu i wouldn't actually mind the government knowing whatever sick stuff i did on the internet. What i would really worry about is if someone i knew personally knew what i did but i'm pretty sure the government wouldn't let that happen for security reasons (so you don't let your cousin commit a terror attack.

>>2151353

1. Information is power.
2. Power corrupts.

The state could do anything they want, and they wouldn't be doing it for the citizens' benefit.

Our laws are made under the assumption they can be occasionally flaunted. If every single time you speed, you get a ticket, then driver behavior changes drastically, and people will probably want higher speed limits.

Almost everyone is a criminal. Most of just don't get caught, routinely. So any agency enforcing the law, could just target whoever they want, based on whatever random factors. As they do know, but on a larger scale.

>>2151353
Good for stability, bad for individual liberties.

>>2151353
Because once the infrastructure for mass and total surveillance is in place, it's easier for the deciding factors for what is "wrong and illegal" to change than it is for society at large and the infrastructure already in place.

Basically, once you can establish total compliance with rules, those in power can change those rules to their benefit with little to essentially no resistance.

>>2151353
I am not against a surveillance state where the populace is also allowed to peek into government secrets. It is bad when it only works one way, putting the goverment above common law.

Derbama

>>2151353
ctrl f 1984
Nothing

/his/

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>cameras everywhere
>government monitors every single phone call, online message, etc.
>this still happens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks

>>2151921
I don't know what to call it but if those who propose or support policies got to experience their policies, there would be a whole lot of bullshit policies that would go out of the window within the first week

all the delusional government people in the capitals around europe would get refugees into their homes, suddenly they're against mass-immigration because they get to experience it

>>2151715
Misuse is entirely subjective

>>2151387
>>2151373

Thread was over by these 2 posts, but it is still nit dead

wtf

>>2151479
Because what keeps the state from lying? What keeps them from tracking you when you are committing no crime, but are doing something they disagree with.

This person went to this political rally, put a tag on his chip and then follow it until you get some minor jailable infraction. Ta-da you have silenced dissidents.

>>2153171
fuck off bruce