Traditionalism

>>2141497
>>>/pol/

But, imagine if you had to do everything by yourself. If you are not qualified at everything, many of your essential belongings would be terrible, like the roofing, the plumbing, your clothing, the shape of the screws used to assemble your heating unit... And if you tried acquiring the practical knowledge to do all of these things right, it would take a lifetime of back-breaking work. Did I mention agriculture and medicine ?

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>not being in a technocracy
Fags

>>2141487

Freshly made bread tastes good. Why does the simple capitalistic principle that better tasting bread costs more seem less likely than that freshly baked bread feeds your soul?

>>2141487
Funny thing is, its ussually the leftists who make their bread.

>>2141513
People learned from their family and community.

>>2141487
>the sponge dogshit mass produced American "bread"
I'd rather eat nothing than that.

>>2141536
A principle which can't be applied to today's large and turbulent society.

Okay lets take best case scenario
>OP managed to build his own wooden house that holds, rots down only once every two years, can withstand 5mph wind, figured out how to build basic tools, how to grow crops, how to pasture animals, how to care about animals, he learned healing properties of flora, he learned basic medicine, he learned to spot dangerous animals/insect, he learned how to clean his own water, learned how to make fire, how to maintain fire, he learned how to supply for winter, he also got pretty damn ripped
>died year later on flu

Traditionalism sure sounds mighty fine

>>2141534
Who's "their?" If you mean the subjects of the picture, the point is the majority of people took care of their own needs. If you mean a modern elite, they are firmly entrenched in liberalism and aren't traditionalist in the slightest, even if they aren't "leftist" (the political nature of liberalism being dubious at best , liberals sitting on the left of the French parliament and being the original left wing).

>>2141575
Not OP, but generally it's the community that helps you with this sort of shit. I grew up in a village and people helped each other all the time.

Note that by community I mean your immidiate neighbors, not the government or the service sector.

What's meant by 'traditionalism' though? In more exact terms than 'not these things I don't like'.

Like living in cottages and hamlets again? Going without electricity? Is traditionalism inherently opposed to urban living?

>>2141596
So you would prefer to rely on people's morality based purely on their emotions, rather than on cold steady hand of law?

>>2141612
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_conservatism

>>2141612
crypto national socialism, and don't expect a concise or clear answer from OP

>>2141614
Yeah. I mean I experienced both ways - cold and steady means spiritually dead.

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>>2141589
Just pointing out one trend of the modern middle class and the fact the traditional principles you speak of are not often championed by people who could be called traditionalists or even conservatives.

>>2141543

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdDfF4hXfj4

>>2141575
Houses build in tradiotional methods are still standing after 100 years built by the people who actually have to live in them and honed thru thousands of years of experience and passed on knowledge. Houses build by capitalism are built by disinterested contractors in cheapest way possible to save costs and fall apart in 20 years due to planned obsolescense.

>>2141633

>planned obsolescense

How much pleasure did you derive from using this meme? I figure it's not a meme move that you're often able to set up in real life.

>>2141620
There is nothing wrong with being spiritually dead

>>2141636
t. Satan

>>2141616
This. It's a paradigm.

>>2141487

It would be lovely to go back but we can't, this is escapism on your part, you're actually retreating from life. The best thing to do is take what was good from those days, try to blend it with today's world, that will take enormous effort that will be unlikely supported by others for some time.

I recommend you read Together by Richard Sennet (if you could bring yourself to read a book by a *gasp* left-leaning sociologist.)

>>2141645
Being spiritually alive means that you throw half of your harvest into a pit in the name of Big Purple Spoon.

Being spiritually dead means you stop doing useless rituals and start focusing on reality, which brought us all the scientific progress in last three hundred years.

>>2141658

>useless rituals

Lol dumb faggot is not even aware of the existence of magic. You're literally an animal. The part that once made you human has been cut out.

>>2141519
That's Transhumanism. Technocracy is a political system (a way to conceive the administration of society).

>>2141619
National socialism was a modern ideology.

>>2141658
Being spiritually dead is throwing away meaningful, useless rituals because you're too much of a reductionistic materialist to understand their purpose beyond immediate appearances.


Gods above you lot are dense

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>>2141770
>Gods above you lot are dense

>>2141536
The minute someone thinks "I'd rather be doing other things than making my own bread" you have division of labor and with a system of currency we reach the state we're in today.

What you're advocating for seems to resemble the Amish and if that's the case, then I wish you luck. I can't imagine you'll make much of a dent.

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>>2141770
>meaningful, useless rituals

>Gods above you lot are dense


>neopagans

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

>>2141487
I live in a capitalist country and pay to eat good quality bread with decent ingredients. Unless you live in some absolute shithole, I can't imagine this would be difficult for you either.

What you're proposing is a kind of ridiculous regression you'd feel stupid for even contemplating after 30 minutes reading about the division of labour.

The division of labour means specialisation to such a high degree that you can have unbelievable goods such as computers and central heating. If everyone goes back to doing everything for themselves, making bread, farming small plots, making and repairing clothes, we'll be blasted back several centuries as no one has the time or means to produce anything remotely complex. Who is going to make automobiles when they'll die if the field isn't tilled?

Ironically it's only a life of complete comfort where bread has always been available that's led to you being retarded enough to suggest that "da old dayz were betta". If every day you'd lived was the struggle that the system you're endorsing forced upon the people of the past, the life you actually lead would appear to be a fantastical nirvana.

>>2141633
Absolute nonsense. To call this """contribution""" mindless speculation would be flattery.

>>2141817

Both of you are ideologues.
There are legitimate concerns about our current relationship to technology and how it is impacting us. There's nothing categorically incorrect about suggesting that man was better off before certain inventions, it's been thought for thousands of years.

> Made your own bread
> Make your own butter
> Made your own computer
> Made your own medicine
You would be forced to give up personalization of your life sooner or later.

>>2141487
>itt /pol/ pretends to be /his/

>OP has clearly never made bread themselves before and has no idea how ridiculously long it takes just to make even two loaves.

>OP doesn't consider the incredible economic inefficiency and soul-draining tediousness of DIYing everything in the "traditionalist" sense, particularly when it comes to hunting and fishing for your own food, an activity that amounts to incredibly inefficient subsistence farming if done regularly.

>OP forgets that it is possible for homemade bread to taste bad or be just as poisonous to you as mass-produced bread

>sticking to a singular "-ism" and not mixing in all the practical ideas for optimal livelihood

>OP thinks all of these "-isms" in the pic are mutually exclusive, in spite of multiple historical examples of all of them existing simultaneously to some degree or another

tl;dr fuck off, /pol/tarded ideologue

>>2141833
>There are legitimate concerns about our current relationship to technology and how it is impacting us
Share them then.

>it's been thought for thousands of years.
So has astrology, is this meant to be compelling?

Your post's contribution to this thread is that of the guy who interrupts a discussion to say "dude no one's right dude, let's just get along and try to understand each other and smoke weed, don't have strong opinions dudes". Being vague and not saying anything does not elevate you above the discussion.

>>2141900

There wasn't anything in the post I replied to which compelled anything stronger.

If you're too stupid to know some concerns about technology then I'd rather just withdraw from the conversation than hold your hand.

>>2141918
>Rambles about everyone being an ideologue
>Doesn't develop the conversation beyond some vague drivel about old beliefs being more valid
Then:
>Asked to actually contribute something
>"N-no w-why don't you look it up yourself I'm n-not a teacher"

You have the "self-satisfied vacous nihilist teenager" playbook down to a fine art, friend. Does it impress your schoolfriends?

>>2141961

I don't know why you're so triggered. I saw a dialectic and resolved it. Keep on the march towards your overly-simplified pole if that's what makes you happy. You just shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't really present a challenge or even an interesting thought to others.

>>2141487
>food analogy + self explanatory image
i want simple minded people to leave

>>2141982
>I saw a dialectic and resolved it
Hahahahahaha, cheers Hegel. Fucking hell, I was not prepared for you to pull that one out.

So if a country switches to traditionalism, what would prevent another country to invade and enslave the traditionalists?

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>>2141487
I don't want to make my own bread, of pump my own water, of weave my own clothes. I should be able to buy and receive those without any effort, nice and alienated.

>>2142052
Country full of alphas ready to defend their fatherland?

>>2141986
>simple minded
That's not a bad thing. Simplicity is fantastic.

>>2141817
>eat good quality bread with decent ingredients
I hope you're not living in America because in that case top kek.

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>>2141714
This nigga gets it.

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>>2141487
>>2141519
>Plebs

>>2142305
Probably not since he ruled out absolute shitholes.

>>2142052
Not being retarded about it and maintaining some modern technology for defence, of course.

>>2141487
What does it even mean beyond "new=bad" though?

ITT: No one makes an argument for traditionalism

>>2142443
It's shit.

>>2141487
That's a bad meme. You could replace traditionalism for anarcho-whatever and it would still make sense.

Traditionalism should be
>where your wife makes bread for the family

>>2142464
>all bakers were female
Kys

>>2142417
>doesn't comprehend op's post
>"Tradition” here means humanity, an elevation of the person.

>>2142459
Read the thread harder, than kys.

>>2141893
^
T H I S
H
I
S

>>2141893
Bet you felt smart typing that up

>>2141893
>Sole proprietorships in the 18th century were unenjoyable.

You are a dingus

>>2142414
Traditionalist thinking is counterproductive to the military. It makes you predictable and slow to adapt, therefore weak.

Not to mention you can´t just "maintain some technology" but steadily invest and modernize the army if you aim to survive without a superpower backing your arse.

>>2142585
I'm talking homemade bread retard.

>>2142638
That is actually a good argument against Traditionalism. It also will tend to perform poorly economically, seeing as it is against usury and the freemarket in general. Fascism with its comination of tradition and modernity is where it's at.

>>2141487
>“Tradition” here means humanity, an elevation of the person.

Pretty much every modern ideology stakes a claim at being truly humane. It takes more than just saying so to demonstrate that yours goes further or does better.

>Recipes were handed down over generations. Mothers taught daughters to cook, fathers taught sons to fish, hunt, defend himself, his family, and so on.

Funny enough, mothers and fathers do this under socialism and capitalism too.

>Is it true, /his/? Nothing beats freshly made bread.

"Muh bread" is not a politics. What has bread got to do with the basic-bitch fascism virtually all """traditionalists""" are pushing?

>>2142661
>against usury and the freemarket in general.
Not inherently. In Britain for example it would be against neither. Since Brits traditionally practiced both.

>>2141666
>>2141774
>>2141813
& Humanities was a mistake. Christcucks pls keep religion out of my politics and I'll stop pointing out logical fallacies and absurdities in faith.

>>2142299
Alpha/beta bullshit doesn't mean anything when one country has a strong industrialized social core and the other spends its days making its own bread and butter in log cabins lmao. The traddies would be steamrolled.

>>2142299
Imagine going to war with the amish right now.

>>2142818
You're confusing traditionalism with primitivism.

>>2142299
Why would contry full of alphas, ready to defend their fatherland, give a fuck about some traditionalistic shithole?

>>2142842
>Out of wedlock births, divorced families , and a generally nigger tier society proves you live in a fantasy world

t. has never even listened to actual traditional music, or if so, doesn't know what getting ones' ashes hauled meant. People were running around doing drugs and shooting each other for having affairs a hundred years ago. Literally nothing has changed.

>>2142414
>Not being retarded about it and maintaining some modern technology for defence, of course.
good luck paying for that army with your shitty cottage industry. There are people who "make their own bread" and they are called fucking hippies. Nobody's stopping you from joining them.

>>2142849
I thought the typical complaint with Japan was that they were ultra-modern and have fucked up social dynamics because of it. They sure as shit aren't traditional in an economic sense.

>>2142946
Luddite bakes his bread in clay oven and traditionalist bakes his bread in modern automatic bread-oven 4000PY+?

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>>2142849
>>What is Franco's Spain?
They had shops with bread, as well as industrial industry

>>What is Salazar Portugal?
likewise

>>What is Japan?
double likewise

Also, Spain and Portugal were incompetent poorfag shitholes, and Japan is literally the last country on earth that is "full of alphas ready to defend their fatherland"

>>2142929
Yeah, most of us don't fucking beat our kids anymore, and more of us can read. This is good. But arguing people didn't have kids out of wedlock, or families didn't break up, shows complete ignorance of how early modern societies actually behaved.

>>2142975

Not an argument.

>>2142946
>Do you not know the difference between traditionalism as a paradigm versus being a Luddite?
The post I was replying to heavily implies that there is a lot of industry going to be scrapped.

Besides, traditionalism without Luddism is a fantasy.

>>2142664
I think the point is the effect these systems have on people. Life is not solely about economics, I mean you can go to /r9k/ right now and find people with medical care, food and entertainment that not even a medieval lord had who are socially alienated and miserable.

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>>2142985

>>2142970
>The point is you know little between traditionalism an an ideal.
I'm not the same anon as before

>All those nations have or had traditional aspects, which are good.
Every nation has or had traditional aspects, some of which are good and some are bad.

>>2142985
>>what is clerical fascism
fantasy

>>what is Archeo-futurism
fantasy

>>2143009
If it had won it would have failed as spectacularly.

Protip: regular fascism is fucking wishful thinking on a grand scale too.

>Honestly poor history knowledge on a history board. Sad! Low energy!
go back to red dit you child

>Traditionalism
Bullshit "ideology" ( not really because you don't actually believe in it, so called traditionalists pick and choose which traditions they want to follow ) that taken to it's pure conclusion means never leaving the hunter gatherer stage.

>>2143026
>>>2143026
Nothing wrong with hanging on to traditions anon. Not the same as desiring a return to hunter-gather society. But I guess strawmanning is easier than thinking.

>>2143058
>Nothing wrong with hanging on to traditions anon.
There are many reasons why certain traditions are undesirable, based on a number of factors.

> Not the same as desiring a return to hunter-gather society.
No but most of the arguments for traditionalism are about as strong as those for anarcho-primitivism.

> But I guess strawmanning is easier than thinking.
I think you need to look up what strawmanning means.

>>2143058
Don't hold an ideology if you don't like the ramifcations of it being taken to it's logical conclusion.
It's not a strawman, it is the essence of traditionalism.
At worse it's a no true scotsman fallacy.

>>2143098
>it is the essence of traditionalism
It's the essence of apathy.

>>2143009
Yup, Tiso and Dolfuss were so high energy. Wow! Reddit!

If your grandparents are still alive, try asking them how much joy their mothers gained from spending their entire day doing chores. I'm sure they will tell you how spiritually dead they felt when they bought their first washing machine and loaf of sliced bread. I can't imagine the anguish they felt at the loss of humanity when they suddenly had hours in the day to spend on something besides cooking and cleaning.

>>2143299
Actually I talk with my mother and grandparents a lot, as well as my gf's mom, which is from the country, and we all agree that life was more wholesome back then. Opinion? Yes. But that's what you asked.

>>2141487
>Flavor, tradition, nature
Get a load of all these spooks lmao

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If traditionalism was so good why everyone abandoned it given a chance?

>>2144927
Someone's going to respond with some variation of
>"muh degeneracy"
>"forced down our throats by jeeeewwwwwsssss"
>"well actually when America was great..."

>>2144921
>flavor and nature
>spooks

Your doing it wrong.

>>2144927
They don't. People across the board prefer tradition, change is usually forced upon them from above.

>>2144927
change isn't progress jamal, that's why everyone hasn't jumped onto the hip trend of mutilating yourself to fit into some mental illness category

>>2145242
Isn't mutilating oneself a tradition in USA as long as in world ruled by Islam and Judaism?

>>2145171
The amount of progressive, scientific individuals increases with time. Conservatives decrease with time. I suggest you read Theory of tante Leisure Class by Thorstein Veblen

>>2145273
That doesn't even make sense. Conservatives simply conserve a status quo. By its nature you'll always have conservatives in proportion to how many people want things to stay as they were at a given moment. 100 years from now, the people nostalgic for 2050 will be conservatives.

>>2141770
>meaningful
>useless
So what the fuck is making them 'meaningful'?

Your entire ideology is based around buzzwords which you yourself can't even give a proper definition of

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>>2144927
>>2145171
>>2145242
>If traditionalism was so good why everyone abandoned it given a chance?
>They don't. People across the board prefer tradition, change is usually forced upon them from above.
>change isn't progress

Time conservation. Ultimately, time = ability to do something of value = money = shit you want but can't produce yourself.

Baking your own bread is nice and the quality of the bread is superior. But is that quality increase worth the hours of preparation time that could be exchanged for work and potentially greater value in something you don't have immediate access to?

Say you spend 3 hours baking some nice bread, that includes time spent preparing and cleaning up after yourself. The total cost is say £10 for flour, yeast, equipment cost (assuming you've made bread thousands of times the cost of a £150 oven is negligible), and fuel cost. But it also cost 3 hours. The end result was some superior quality bread.

Say you like bread but really want a ham sandwich. You don't rear pigs, you don't churn butter, you don't grow pepper or mine salt or anything else involved. There is this nice cafe nearby that sells £5 ham sandwiches. That's a lot of money for a ham sandwich but it may be worth it. So you spend 2.5 hours working, making £10 per hour, ending up with £25 and 30 minutes to go to the cafe, get 5 expensive but really fucking good ham sandwiches and get home. The end result is you have 5 tasty as fuck ham sandwiches.

Do you want to live on plain bread or ham sandwiches?

This is basic division of labour and economics of time, lads. This is the foundation of economics which humans figured out 5,000+ years ago.

The only question to be asked is how much division of labour do you want to participate in and which skills do you yourself wish to maintain? Because the fact that you're here on /his/ tells me that you like the division of labour that made your computer and the internet possible.

>>2143308
>old people saying everything was better back in their day
Well gee that's a new one!
I bet they really hated that washing machine!

You can make your own bread in a capitalist society also...
Youre free to do whatever, fucking sell the bread, buy wheat repeat...
In soviet people stood in line to buy wheat, so you didnt have the oppurtunity to make bread at all. And grow own corps in soviet was illegal because serfdom.
Fucking shit, you people are stupid, why cant it be X and Y

>>2144944
>when America was great
Literally never.

>>2145366
The washing machine made people labor more, if they don't hate it they should.

>>2145350
what's that got to do with anything

>>2145565
>what's that got to do with anything

What?

This whole thread is about traditionalism vs modern economics. People making arguments in support of traditionalism are forgetting the basic economic concepts that have brought about the modern world, much as they might resent it.

Division of labour and economics of time and scale mean that everyone doesn't HAVE to bake their own bread as OP and others argue. Because traditionalism forces everyone to make their own bread rather than giving people the option to exchange the time spent making said bread for time spent earning currency to trade for something else.

But so many people are of the "Hurr everyone would be more enlightened and in touch with the world if they were forced to make their own bread" opinion that they forget such basic concepts.

Basically, like it or not, regulated capitalism does give people the most economic freedom. It's just some lazy faggots think they are forced to abandon traditional ways and skills without realising that capitalism gives them the choice, and they are making the lazy choice to ignore readily available knowledge.

Everyone is free to start their own Amish-esque traditionalist communities, everyone is also far too lazy to do so.

>>2141487
You're describing communism, though

>>2143308
Not him but "Wholesome" is nonspecific to the point of being practically meaningless. I'll break down a few points with the context I'm familiar with in Australia.

Even being a "townie" my childhood highlights reel was pretty similar to my mother's who lived on a farm, me having relatives and friends on the land there was plenty of free play and adventure. The divide there is not so much past and present but city and country; and although city children have been increasingly coddled latterly the importance of free play and self discovery is being talked about and acted upon.

Now life on the land can be becoming increasingly difficult in marginal areas that are increasingly vulnerable to drought such as broadacre cereal and grazing land on the edge of the arable zone. These are the areas which I have seen the most dead and dying towns. There have been extensive, long term droughts that have penetrated deep into some of the core farmland away from the margins all up the eastern states and WA. However if you live in a picturesque country town than tourism often provides economic input to the town which keeps it vibrant, my hometown is one of these. There are significant enough numbers of tourists to sustain local businesses which are also supported by locals.

Wider appreciation for higher quality produce means that properties can both readily market a product that isn't farmed intensively, selling to more people on a quality rather than economy basis, and also through clever branding and good social media management, actually market the produce as tied to the property itself. If a solid framework for carbon credits is developed I can see outback stations that find themselves having to destock more often due to drought offering a similar premium service for carbon credits, with direct sale of credits to consumers from the managers themselves which is unusual tied to a narrative about regenerating sectors of the original land condition on the property.

>>2145242
Traditionalists are the ones who mutilate themselves, from Americans to Muslims to Papuans, "muh culture" is seen as a valid reason for people to fuck themselves an eachother up.

>>2147478
It is true however that 60 years ago you could make bank from large sheep properties, that time is gone.

So TL:DR childhood is similar, communities could be dying or thriving more than ever depending on where they are. Agriculture might make less money that 60 years ago sector dependant; but broad public desire to buy less, buy better means that many sectors have great opportunities currently. Climate change does give uncertainty to agriculture in vulnerable areas however.

>>2145331
It's just how the trend of society is. You're right it's unsustainable, but I think that is, frankly, the wisest thing to be concerned about, sustainability wise. Scientific, industrial individuals outnumber by far the conservative, religious person. Ironically, I can use the argument forwarded by Veblen to determine this, and it's true. There are a lot of scientific industrialists in the Republican Party these days, and the number grows more and more each day.

Veblenian conservatism is a very hard conservatism but it's group is dwindling and it's necessary for the current state of society to exist.

>Traditionalism
>Where you have no choice but to make bread for nobles.

>>2147541
> impying I wouldn't be noble
truly the plebs logic

>>2142881
The absence of the division of labour means that traditionalism is the same if not worse than primitivism. At least the Amish collaborate.

So how did you purchase the land?

>BRO I JUST MOVED TO EMPTY LAND

Oh so you are trying to get your family raped by indians?

>>2141487
Kek poor people making their own bread