Ask yourself /his/ which side is more reasonable?

that's not an easy question, anon

I was about to answer "Austrain Economics", but then I read your insightful commentary and I am just not sure anymore. I can't believe I missed that quote in their works.

>>2090539

What is Keynesian perspective on Bitcoin?

>>2090569
I know, I had just read some material by Von Mises but now I'm rethinking my stance on the whole school due to this image. Is this a Milton Friedman quote OP?

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>>2090539
Corporatist economics.

>>2090539
The gold standard does solve everything. It did solve everything, until America fucked it.

>implying a standard based on physical goods is not better than a standard based on an ideological one
Plebs. Your money is literally worthless, or at least its base value is the cost of it's creation, gold is not the same, gold was never the same.

Executive Order 6102.

Daily reminder that Austrian economics and Marxism are two sides of the same autistic German coin.

>>2091449
why is gold valuable?

>>2090539
The gold standard DOES fix everything, commie

>>2091461
*head explodes*

>>2091449
Put this into perspective of corruption.

gold price per ounce in 1933 - ~$32 an ounce.
35 ounces in kilogram means it's about $1100 per kilogram of gold in 1933.

One example of gold being confiscated is around 160 kilograms which works out to be about $180,992 in 1933 monies.

Adjusted for inflation to todays standard works out to be about $3,267,872.73.

America is built on economics my hole.

>>2091461
Because people place a clue on it, people, not the fucking government? People want to buy gold therefore it has value, people are forced to use money, therefore it has value.

The same thing, right?

>rare minerals mined on earth have no value
>but plants formed into notes do
Right.

Austrian economics is just as much of a joke as Marxian economics.

t. economist

>>2091491
same thing with money

How is inflation required to keep people out of poverty? I get the argument that it encourages investment in land and capital (since the value of those things tends to adjust with inflation) but I don't get this argument.

>>2091499
Not at all, they are both made from minerals yes.

Gold is much more valuable due to it's restricted quantity and the nature required to access it. I mean, less quantity = higher price.

Basic fucking economics. But of course, leave it to you to believe a plant which is easily farmed is as valuable in an economics sense as something which needs to be mined, and forged.

>>2091509
>from minerals yes.
Wrong word, resources.

>>2091509
>Gold is much more valuable due to it's restricted quantity and the nature required to access it. I mean, less quantity = higher price.
so is money

>>2091512
>wrong word
Not at all, there's minerals in that plant going into the note
Gold is a mineral

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>>2091509
Diamonds are much more valuable than gold per kilogram. Why not use diamonds as currency?

>>2091461
>>2091491
>>2091509
all wrong

gold, silver and platinum group metals (remember there's numerous other precious metals more valuable than gold fuckwads) are a store of wealth because of their sheer inertness. fiat currency has to be floated on the open market with the backing of a central authority like the federal reserve.

>inb4 noble gas

not convenient to store and far too easy to lose

>>2091538
diamonds are used as currency you retard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond

>>2091504
Feasibly, if the capital injections were made to enter into the poorer areas of America, these would be the areas receiving an increase in purchasing power, but eventually, especially in poorer areas, you're going to see an equalized value for everyone no matter what, in a shorter time span than, say, entrepreneurial subsidies like in another one of Obama's initiatives. Technically speaking, if it has to be done, it has to be, but it is advised against as economic policy because what happens is the monetary unit loses its value as the additional amount of it assigned to poorer areas gets used and utilized by other segments of the population.

>>2091544
>sheer inertness
Actually this one question is up for some debate. What gives a monetary unit value? Ricardo would say its utility, rarity, and (because rare)cost of production. Von Mises would say simply just the utility.

>>2091544
what happens when a central body hoardes all the gold

>>2091545
so are cigarettes

>>2091555
That's what was starting to happen at the beginning of the 20th century due to the gold-exchange standard. Then the world bank existed and holds all the country's gold reserves and they all have IMF certificates and trade them around for the excess of a surplus/deficit on cleared transactions.

>>2091580
what's the point then

>>2091538
Kek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers#Diamond_monopoly

>>2091562
no country uses cigarettes as official currency

>>2091619
who said anything about a country?

lmao the gold standard would fucking destroy the economy

If Gold standard is so great why do hardly any nations use it?

>>2091640
Because they understand it.

>>2091618
See? Perfect. You have a supply limited by one company rather than have an untrustworthy Fed printing money all the time. goldbugs btfo

Goldbugs are literally the creationists of the economics world. Best load your entire savings into TransPacific too you fucking retards.

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>>2091640
Gee, I fucking wonder?

>Foreigners also had gold confiscated, and were forced to accept paper money for their gold. The Uebersee Finanz-Korporation, a Swiss banking company, had $1,250,000 in gold coins for business use. The Uebersee Finanz-Korporation entrusted the gold to an American firm for safekeeping. The Swiss were shocked to find that their gold was confiscated. The Swiss made appeals, but those appeals were denied. The Swiss were entitled to paper money – but not their gold. The Swiss company lost 40% of their gold's value if they tried to buy the same amount of gold with the paper money they received in exchange for their confiscated gold.
> The Swiss company lost 40% of their gold's value if they tried to buy the same amount of gold with the paper money they received in exchange for their confiscated gold.
> The Swiss company lost 40% of their gold's value if they tried to buy the same amount of gold with the paper money they received in exchange for their confiscated gold.

America is built and run by simple swindlers.

>>2091597
Of having a gold standard, as opposed to a gold-exchange standard or fiat currency. First of all, it allows for the issuance of credit currency by the central banking authority, which is much more stable than fiat currency. Also, the fiduciary media circulated by institutions is much more stable when matched by a gold standard. But the financial institutions don't seem to like a possible deflation of the currency due to the variable costs of two currencies so it's inimical to public policy to adopt anything other than fiat currency.

>>2091650
Kek, this literally did not happen with gold though? There was no corporation ever throughout the history of mankind who was able to illegally monopolise gold? On a global scale?

>>2091656
>oy vey the goyim took our gold it was anudda shoah

>>2091667
Great argument. It's just a coincidence that America confiscated everyones gold on their land and they now have the largest quantity of gold in the world, just confidence, right?

>>2091662
but the gold standard obviously turns into a gold exchange standard

>>2091671
but zero hedge told me fort Knox is empty and the russians and Chinese have all the gold now

>>2091636
I take a rather conservative position on the gold-standard, but please explain why backing our money with some variable commodity like Bitcoin for instance, wouldn't have a stabilizing effect on the money?

>>2091662
>it allows for the issuance of credit currency
Oh, so it allows people to fuck themselves over and support a broken system.

>nothing makes more nothing so it's stable
Right.

>>2091677
Ok.

>>2091680
>amount of goods and services increases
>amount of gold doesn't
>people who have gold become richer
>people who invested their money become poorer

or alternatively

>massive, profitable new gold mine found
>????????
>hyperinflation

Fiat currency gives a level of stability and control that you simply can't find in any commodity market.

>>2091677
kek beat me to it

>>2091672
Not really. The gold standard has gold actually changing owners for large transactions, and also feasibly being called upon by the holders of the notes.

The gold-exchange standard matches variations in the exchange value of the commodity being exchanged with gold, as opposed to the currency and uses the equivalent amount of gold in the currency to clear the exchange so no gold at all is every going to change hands, and it eventually flows into the reserves of the country whose notes are held in the redemption funds of major financial institutions.

>>2091692
I might not have even been talking about gold in that post. What about cryptocurrencies? Isn't that stabilizing in the same way?

>>2091640
because the goverment overnight turns into a regime and your country gets democratically liberated.

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>>2091705
>The gold standard has gold actually changing owners for large transactions, and also feasibly being called upon by the holders of the notes.
why?

>>2091692
also, that reasoning is faulty. Gold has a stabilizing effect on currency, bar none. Once we've gone over to full fiat, the inflation went rampant.

>>2091727
Because that's how it works. Read a book.

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>>2091738
Not an argument.

>>2091721
You have the same problem.

You can't make more of it when you want to, and more of it can get made when you don't want it to.

If you look at the value of non-shithole-country currencies, and then compare it to the value of basically any commodity on the market, the currency will be more stable.

This is because you can actively adjust the supply of fiat currency to deal with different market conditions.

People shit over fiat currency because you have Zimbabwe tier nigras (such as Germans) printing loads of money to pay for things, but if you have a government that can actually execute policy, having that free hand is priceless.

>>2091749
We're not having one. You're asking me to explain how a system works.

>>2091751
But you can distribute more of the fiduciary media when you want to, so what is the difference?

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>>2091755
Why can't you?

>>2091731
>commodities are stable

t. doesn't invest

>>2091764
The difference being that you can, say, double the money supply over two years to deal with a recession, or buy a shitload of bonds to combat inflation.

There is no artificial limit, and nobody other than the treasury can tamper with the supply.

That shit's nice.

>>2091765
Because the corporations and governments need to have solvency under the gold standard. Their reserve ratio requirements impute they carry a certain amount of gold relative to their liabilities.

People may call upon gold for their notes for various personal reasons, but not many would unless it's a bank run.

>>2091680

Desu, the US Dollar is back by the world's most important things.

Nuclear weapons, the world's largest military, and the world's largest prison system*

These three factors force the world to respect the value of the US dollar. Its why its better than the Euro or various other nations with better fiscal policy.

*into which you will go if you do not value the US dollar and pay your taxes in USD instead of bartering with gold with the IRS.

>"Haha, look at how stupid my strawman is!"

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>>2091784
So what's the point then?

>>2091767
Using a matched standard, having two acceptable forms of currency, like gold and the U.S. dollar would have a stabilizing effect on the U.S. dollar no matter how variable the gold is.
>>2091782
How is there a limit with a gold standard?

>>2091800
Exactly what I've just said. Read the previous posts.

>>2091493
Economics is a joke

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>>2091787
so u sayin'
*inhales pure strain gold to ward off the reptilian mind control rays*
gold is worthless?

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>>2091807
I'm not following.

Why have money? Why don't they just use gold?

>>2091802
>no more gold
>can't issue more currency without either abandoning the standard or debasing the currency relative to gold

>>2091823
Becuase the fiduciary media(credit, fiat, or commodity money) is what is being issued by the central banking authority. Theoretically, gold could be exchanging hands, under some form of a commodity money like under the mercantilistic system of Adam Smith. But, when people talk about the gold standard these days they usually mean that paper credit or fiat currency would change hands, which could be called upon for gold if necessary.

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>>2091849
So what's the point of the gold then?

>>2091826
Do you know that limit is just such a ridiculous limitation? It's almost a healthy one because the expansion of fiduciary media to such a large amount that it would cause a bank run is horrible economic policy.

>>2091858
You are absolutely retarded. Read this post
>>2091662

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>>2091864
But the gold standard turns into a gold exchange standard.

>>2091859
It's an unnecessary limitation when fiat currency works just fine.

>but muh inflation

which is intentional monetary policy on the part of the treasury.

>>2091873
Now it's my turn to ask the questions. How so?

It's a simple conversion, instead of backing the contractual agreements in gold, they back it in the commodity matched by gold. Instead of issuing fiduciary media exchangeable for gold, they issue fiduciary media comparable to gold. That doesn't necessarily have to happen though.

>>2091881
Right, but ceaseless inflation isn't a good thing at all.

Again, I'm not necessarily advocating anything here, I just think that central banking tendency to issue ridiculous amounts of fiduciary media increasingly over time to handle economic busts which are inevitable because of the increasing amounts of capital injections into segments of the population is unhealthy economic policy. I would argue the fiat currency is infinitely better than the gold-exchange standard but the idea of having a variable commodity matched and exchangeable for the fiduciary media issued like Bitcoin, for instance, should have some theoretical feasibility. The Chinese government and America hoard Bitcoin for this very reason.

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>>2091891
So you're saying the gold standard has never been tried?

>>2091909
>but ceaseless inflation isn't a good thing at all

First of all, that isn't a necessary condition for fiat currency to exist. It's a choice that the Treasury makes.

Secondly, it forces people to invest or spend their money, which causes goods and services to be produced.

>>2091915
It has. And remains in some countries, which didn't switch over to the gold-exchange.

>>2091923
It causes the monetary unit to be devalued constantly in the eyes of the non-entrepreneurs/pecuniary class who aren't getting hit by the subsidies first.

Farmers get fucked.

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>>2091924
Where? Raqua?

>>2091931
I'm just saying it isn't the eventual destination for the gold standard necessarily.

>>2091928
>It causes the monetary unit to be devalued constantly

How?

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>mfw goldbugs still haven't provided a justification for the gold standard itt

Why have any form of standard? Abolishing legal tender is the correct free market position. That way if you want to use gold or silver, you're free to, and if you wish to use worthless government paper, you can do that to.

https://fee.org/articles/abolish-legal-tender/

psssst...the dollar is backed by oil

>mfw it's literally Ron Paul and his supporters that want the gold standard while today's economists of all different leanings agree it's a bad idea

You guys are like the climate deniers or the creationists of monetary policy.

>>2091449
>gold standard
>denying yourself one of the primary tools of currency control for no reason

>>2091449
The only problem with the gold standard is that in a recesssion you cant print more money without mining gold first.

Not all stimulus is bad. For instance having stimulus where you get your money back (I know it's unlikely but theoritically) is fine. Banks do this all the time;when well regulated, they do fine.

>We're broke so let's spend as much money as possible to get our selves out of it
>No future repercussions will come

>>2092128
>a recession is the same as being broke

This is precisely why only land owners should be allowed to vote.

>>2091960
That's a lie and you know it.

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Keynesian economics is more well rounded, however it is often twisted by politicians as an excuse to borrow, spend and keep rates low excessively. We need criticism from other schools of thought to help determine whether the goverment really is increasing aggregate demand or just creating a bubble.

>keynes vs austrians.png
You need a decent economy to support social welfare and reduce poverty. Bubble and bust debtconomics doesn't accomplish this as can be observed in many countries like Greece, Argentina and Venezuela. Just because a politician supports a good cause doesn't necessarily mean they genuinely care about it, it is often better to support a party that has a sound plan rather than one promising free ice cream.

>>2092098
>The only problem with the gold standard is that in a recession you cant print more money without mining gold first.
I don't know if this ratio is as pronounced as you think it is. Gold production will always be there, and to be honest fractional reserves makes it possible to proliferate a very high amount of fiduciary media before anyone starts to get worried about the solvency of the institution.

>>2090539
Nice unbiased image there op

>>2092462
>keep rates low excessively.
keynesian economics are about targetting full employment instead of targetting inflation
if you don't target inflation inflation rises and requires you to increase interest rates.
the 1970s was an extreme example of keynesian economics.
since the backlash (orchestrated by investors and creditors) we've targetted inflation and arrived to a point now where on a global scale there's hardly any inflation despite pumping 13tn of quantitative easing and other measures.

>>2090539
The right side sounds better
Fuck inflation

>>2090539
Inflation favors borrowing and investing and punishes saving.
It favors the rich only my deluded friend. Austrian economics isn't perfect but Keynesian has turned into government aided plutocrat rentseeking and it's fucking evil

>>2093115
>implying the rich don't save more money than any other segment of population

>>2091458
What is it with Germans and retarded ideas?

Austrian economics is a bigger meme than Marxism.

At least no one but internet edgelords and a few eccentric academics takes Marxism seriously anymore.

It's rather terrifying to realize that not only do a significant amount of people actually put stock in the logically and morally bankrupt ramblings of Mises/Rothbard/etc. but that some of them are in actual positions of power.

Keynes is a hero.

Anti-Keynesians are literally as bad as Marxists. The observable evidence to the massive success of Keynesian economics is overwhelming. There is no denying it unless you're an ideologically guided pleb.

>>2090539
gold reserve is a good idea

Sure, you all say fiat currency is fine and all. However, how about the concentration of power into the hands of the banks and financial elites?

>>2093290
Sure, you all say gold is fine and all. However, how about the concentration of power into the hands of the gold holding companies and gold miners?

>>2093290
Sure, you all say capitalism is fine and all. However, how about the concentration of power into the hands of the bourgeoisie?

>>2093115
wew lad you really need to learn what Keynes was about. Also, we never really had Keynesian economics implemented past about 1980 at the latest.
Read "Political Aspects of Full Employment" by Kalecki, it was a response to Keynes' General Theory if you want to understand why we're here.

>>2092875
The lack of inflation may be evidence that QE isn't working, the dollars aren't being invested (thereby creating jobs, increasing consumer spending and causing inflation) because there simply aren't any feasible avenues for investment left.

Aggregate demand cannot exceed aggregate supply. The next step is to increase supply by improving the efficiency of the market, removing barriers and so forth. This is the realm of the austrian school, whether they are right or wrong is up to debate of course, I don't believe it is 100% memes and spooks though.

>>2093194
>massive success of Keynesian economics is overwhelming
It failed in during the great depression and it failed in our latest recession.

>>2093669
In what way?

>>2093669
>It failed during the great depression
It didn't. As a matter of fact the great depression was pretty much the reason Keynesian economics took off in the first place in order to prevent another one.

>latest recession
Again it didn't. We abandoned Keynesian economics in favour of a return to neoclassical economics in the 1980s.

What actually failed in both of these instances, hilariously, was the free market.

>>2093643
>The lack of inflation may be evidence that QE isn't working, the dollars aren't being invested (thereby creating jobs, increasing consumer spending and causing inflation) because there simply aren't any feasible avenues for investment left.
It gives a clue what sort of economy 40 years of targetting inflation has created.

>>2093669
The New Deal the economic effects of WW2 and the "Golden Age" prove Keynes right.
He was empirically correct, fuck the theories. Man was a unique genius.

>>2093692
>>2093707
>The New Deal the economic effects
The economy barely improved during that period. The only thing that was achived was lowering the unemployment.
>>2093692
>It didn't
It did. After 11 years the economy was awful and until Germany chimped out the recovery really didn't happen.
>We abandoned Keynesian economics in favour of a return to neoclassical economics in the 1980s.
This is just false. Southern Europe increased deficits and public spending and the only thing that it caused was a huge debt crisis.

>>2090539

They're both nonsense.

Keynesnianism predicts that people will refuse to buy food and starve to death waiting on deflation gains from their cash.

>>2091808
Some jokes are funnier than others

>>2093912
Well, the funniest one will always be communism here.

>>2093898
>The economy barely improved during that period. The only thing that was achived was lowering the unemployment.
That's like saying "a tourniquet doesn't work, all it does is slow down the bleeding," and thinking everything returning to how it was before you got stabbed is the only definition of success.

>It did. After 11 years the economy was awful and until Germany chimped out the recovery really didn't happen.
Germany chimping out led to a huge increase in US Govt spending on arms which stimulated the US economy.
Precisely what Keynes said. WW2 spending was the New Deal on steroids.
>This is just false. Southern Europe increased deficits and public spending and the only thing that it caused was a huge debt crisis.
Keynes said you spend in the bad times and save in the good.
Southern Europe spent in good times then made deep cuts after 2008.
Precisely the opposite of Keynesianism.

You're a fucking retard, just stop posting please.

>>2091504
Poor people have less money sitting around than rich people. Inflation forces rich people to invest their money or lose it.

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>>2093898
Have you read a single economics textbook in your entire life?
Or do you consider that brainwashing?

>>2093699
Policies targeting inflation are only a small proportion of the things that can affect the entire economy. Correlation does not imply causation. The clue is next to useless without a causal link.

First, regain currency issue right.
Then introduce savings tax.

>>2093938

"World War II raised U.S. defense expenditures by $540 billion (1996 dollars) per year at the peak in 1943-44, amounting to 44% of real GDP. The war raised real GDP by $430 billion per year in 1943-44. Thus, the multiplier was 0.8 (430/540). The other way to put this is that the war lowered components of GDP aside from military purchases. The main declines were in private investment, nonmilitary parts of government purchases, and net exports — personal consumer expenditure changed little. Wartime production siphoned off resources from other economic uses — there was a dampener, rather than a multiplier".

>>2093904

Underrated post

>>2094052
>cherrypicking one year's data
Show us the multiplier rates from 1939 when rearmament began

>>2093938
>Germany chimping out led to a huge increase in US Govt spending on arms which stimulated the US economy.

Or maybe just war is good for the economy?

Explain why Keynesian policies couldn't revert the 70's stagflation crisis.

>>2093938
They built an aircraft carrier and said "haha this is worth $10 billion now, add that to the GDP stats", that is the sole reason why GDP rose sharply during the war.

>>2094081

"In this paper I use war production spending to quantify the idiosyncratic factors affecting estimates of the fiscal multiplier during World War II. Newly digitized war supply contract data allow me to construct state-level panel data on U.S. defense spending for 1940-45 and examine state-level outcomes. Using within-state variation I estimate a multiplier of 0.25 to 0.3, depending on the estimation approach. This implies an aggregate multiplier of roughly 0.3 to 0.4 given wartime economic conditions.
At least 75 percent of the income generated by war spending went into increased saving and income taxes, implying that the add-on effects from increased consumption were minimal in the short run": At least 75 percent of the income generated by war spending went into increased saving and income taxes, implying that the add-on effects from increased consumption were minimal in the short run": https://m.box.com/shared_item/https%3A%2F%2Fberkeley.box.com%2Fs%2F5fwkm24om69xvbzowveaepg5jx79yo3c

>>2094081

Barro, Robert J.; Redlick, Charles J. (2011). "Macroeconomic effects from government purchases and taxes". Quarterly Journal of Economics. Oxford Journals. 126 (1): 51–102: "For U.S. annual data that include World War II, the estimated multiplier for temporary defense spending is 0.4–0.5 contemporaneously and 0.6–0.7 over 2 years. If the change in defense spending is “permanent” (gauged by Ramey's defense news variable), the multipliers are higher by 0.1–0.2. Since all estimated multipliers are significantly less than 1, greater spending crowds out other components of GDP, particularly investment"
http://m.qje.oxfordjournals.org/content/126/1/51

>>2091538

Diamonds can be created.

They can be created with 100% accuracy and the technology is reasonably affordable.

The only way you know a 'genuine' diamond is because companies like De Beers will "print" a laser/radioactive etching on to it. In which case it's back to fiat money basically.

Gold cannot be created in reasonable quantities because making diamonds = compressing coal, making gold = nuclear fusion.

Learn basic science, retard.

austrianism is retarded, and monetary policy got the us out of its 1930s depression, not fiscal stimulus

t. new keynesian

>>2093938
>Precisely what Keynes said. WW2 spending was the New Deal on steroids.
You moron the global demand increased. The UK buying millions of supplies and weapons boosted the economy a fuckton.

>>2093938
>Southern Europe spent in good times then made deep cuts after 2008.
Spain went from spending 260 billion dollars a year in 2007 to 330 billion and increased the debt from 30% to 100% in 6 years. Fucking mongrela

>>2094517
New Keynesian economics is objectively the best school of macroeconomics

>>2090539
Probably a mixture of the two, but economics is so fucked they'd never be able to pare the two and make a cohesive whole.