When will Islam go through its Reformation?

>le islam is just christianity but a little behind the times hee hee XDDDDD

>>2071024
Literally happening right now. ISIS is the reformation in that they're a bunch of spergy cunts who don't understand the world that they live in. Wahabbis are also part of this. Iran is the papacy in this reformation.

Started in islamic revolution of Iran and it's climaxing in Levant and Iraq as we speak.

>>2071053
The reforms started much earlier. I would say around the Arab Cold War in the 1950's since the Saudis needed a viable ideology to combat Pan-Arabic Nationalism.

Though I would agree that the Iranian Revolution played a big part in causing it to spread.

>>2071024
More interesting would be when does the Islamic world go trough its process of enlightenment and turns its back on blind faith.

Islam is going through the same process that Catholicism experienced during the XIXth century. A process of centralization and standardization abetted by modern technologies, in a reaction against attacks by state power against the faith.

If history offers any lesson, the solution here is recognize Political Islam as a legitimate party. Given enough time, they will secularize by themselves and "Islamist" parties will be just as Islamic as the "Christian Democratic" parties of Europe as Christians.

>>2071221
The Muslim Brotherhood was created in Egypt during the 1920s.

It grew during the Nasser era as small merchants unsatisfied by the government socialist policies turned towards Islamism. The same pattern is repeated across many Islamic countries. Socialist and undemocratic policies of Arab nationalist regimes turn the important small business class of Arab countries towards Islamism. Algeria, Syria, Tunisia, etc...

Even in Iran and Turkey you have this. In Iran, the bazaari were influential in the revolution, and in Turkey the rule of the AKD was, at least until recently, supported by small businessmen from Anatolia, the so-called "Anatolian Tigers", who broke the crony capitalist relations between the government and the big families like the Koc and others (Erdogan reversed this lately, but that's another story).

The lesson here is that the spread of Islamism is a result of the failure of socialism in the Islamic world. Get rid of it and you can get rid of Islamism, given enough time.

>>2071024
It already did. Have you heard of Salafism?

>>2071236
But a problem that Catholicism didn't have to go through is the fundamentalists labeling anything remotely secular as 'Western Imperialist' propaganda.

>>2071250
Is that brand of Islamism similar to Wahabbism though?

I think the Saud Wahabbism is worse than any other brand of conservative Islam especially since they have the resources to spread it.

>>2071024
I don't think there people asking for an "Islamic Reformation" truly understand what that means.

Like, putting aside that it's retarded from a theological perspective, they do remember that it led to two centuries is brutal religious warfare, right?

>>2071236
>the solution here is recognize Political Islam as a legitimate party.
Plz, the Catholic and Protestants can't really handle that.

>>2071024

what exactly do you think is happening in islam right now?

>>2071024
It happened in the 19th and 20th century with wahhabism.

>>2071321

would you call the 100,000+ dead from Shia v Sunni violence in the past decade nothing

>>2071250
Yeah, see Libya now.

There was hope for Gulinism but lol good luck with that now.

>>2071024
Could they at least kill each other, and leave the rest of us alone?

>>2071024
Can the word of God be reformed?

>>2071375
Not at all; in fact, I would say it's evidence that those who blithely call for a Reformation don't quite realize what they are asking for

>>2071375
No, but remember the European wars of religion killed tens of millions, hell parts of northern germany lost over 50% of their population. If Islam as a whole goes through a similar period it could be even worse.

>>2071024
Wasnt the rise of Shia the islamic equivalent? Or was that more of a Great Schism?

>>2071503
Its position in society, and what part of culture it is: Those can change.

>>2071024
It won't have time to do so before Sanders becomes gen-sec of the USSA.

Why do people think that, just because Christianity went through a reformation, that Islam has to go through some sort of equivalent phase? What's more, many people, including in this thread, seem to automatically assume that it'll happen at the same time and in a similar manner to the Protestant Reformation, for no reason.

I hate this meme.

>>2071915
Believe it or not, people actually think that religion is anything but worthless.

>>2071874
Sanders will never hold presidency.

Cry harder lefty 'muh entryism'

>>2071915
People also get confused that different religions occupy socities in different ways.
I.e Celtic Druids being a higher social class only, where the rest of society would basically be faithless.
The exact same is true for a lot of Buddhism, where The Monks are faith, and plebs are not really.
But it varies a lot.
Even inside Islam it varies a lot how Univeral God is, and how big deal Muhammed is.

>>2071970
>Even inside Islam it varies a lot how Univeral God is, and how big deal Muhammed is.
Surely to a lesser degree than you're suggesting with the preceding highly involved/high uninvolved populations

>>2071771
That was more political than religious. If I'm not mistaken, the Shia was just basically people that thought Ali should have been the Khalifa after the death of Mohammad.

>>2072026
Todays Islam is a more involved religion than Christianity today, 50 years ago and 100 years ago.
Just like how Protestantism is more passive than Catholicism.

But the big point: When Western nations move towards apathy, Islam doesn't have the same fundations, so it won't be affected in the same manner.
It also won't need a Christian Reformation, because it doesn't have a large priest caste.

>>2071024
Oil is running out and rest of the world is getting sick of Islam. Sure, they can reform.

The problem is if they will be able to do so before the world gets tired of them and before when their biggest asset (oil) runs out. The world won't wait for them to reform and I feel like they still have a lot to go through

>>2072186
The ""world""/developed can only be so tolerant before we forget about WW, scarce resources and then we'll go back to killing each other like usual

>>2071024

IMO it's impossible the Quran and Hadith's could never be reformed since the Quran is considered to be perfectly clear and the Sahih narratives can't be reinterpreted from its obvious meaning

>>2071261
No, but they did label it Judeo-Masonic propaganda.

It is happening right now. Unfortunately they are becoming more hardliner fanatical instead of more secular liberal.

Blame Saudis and Gulf Arabs that bankroll terrorists to spread islam and wahhabism

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Who is the Martin Luther of Islam?

Bump for an interesting thread

>>2071024
In 500 years at least. I believe that Islam is now going through its Middle Ages.

>>2071024

We're living its reformation and Wahab was Martin Luthar.

Praying for muslim voltaire any minute now.

>>2072635
why does Martin Luther look like Ryan Gosling?

>>2071024

you dont understand islam

islam is reforming all the time, especialy today, every major political, demographic or cultural change in the muslim world has been either a consequence of or a part of a reformation movement, almost every major war, uprising, revolution or goverment change in the muslim world happened during or because of a reformation movement, theres a more or less violet, more or less succesfull, more or less global reformation in islam every couple generations, almost every succesful dinasty, state, country or nation in the muslim world has been started by or results from some reformation movement, even all the divisions in islam, shia, suni, sufi etc are all the result of reformation movements

its just that islam is pretty much shit as a religion and every reform literaly just takes it back to basics, which is always and without fault its main goal, to go back to basic, pure, pristine literal teaching of the koran, and which basics are autistic as fuck to say the least

not that there arent any merits to it, in a strange way its almost zen, its just autistic as fuck

>>2072635
Merkel

>>2072758

Nah, Merkel is Charles the Fifth in this analogy.

>>2071321
>I don't think there people asking for an "Islamic Reformation" truly understand what that means.

It's something I notice about Ayaan anytime she talks about Western history and culture, like it only exists in her world as a foible.

>>2071221
I would push it back even further to the turn of the 20th century with the various Salafi (not to be confused with the later Salafist movement) thinkers and reformers operating out of places like Egypt and India, and the political movements of Pan-Arab ideology and Islamism are something that actually disrupted it.

The Islamic Wars of Religion have actually yet to start, and we've just been dealing with the chaff of a traditional proxy war stand-off so far between various foreign and local actors.

>>2071281
Islamism and Wahabbi/Salafism are neither mutually exclusive nor synonymous, and you can have both Salafi Islamists and Islamists who hate them, as well as apolitical Salafists. Recently Islamism has taken a Wahhabi/Salafi/Deobandi turn in various places because of the spread of Gulf Arab funded private schools throughout the Muslim world.

>>2071970
>>2072026

Originally, Islam was a religion that occupied an upper stratum in Middle Eastern society, or segregated entirely from the rest of the population. A big part of the current problem of fanaticism is that it's gone through and is in the process of going through popular religious revivalism in which things like personal faith and public spiritual welfare are no longer a matter of supporting some local dervishes and mendicants to do some holy-man things on weddings and other occasions, but now a form of social engineering and political ideology for the likes of radicals and fundamentalists.

>>2072137
>That was more political than religious
What do you think the reformation was? Or any other "religious" event?

>>2071503
You should really go read about 11/12th century Islamic debates. The word of god has been constantly challenged, disputed, and generally interpreted in many different ways.

>>2072635
Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

American negros have similar average iqs to sand niggers and are just as violent. They are Christian but: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43
The cause of violence is not ideology but biology

>>2071236
>The solution here is to to recognize the national socialist as a legitimate party.
Given enough time they will liberalize all by themselves and "fascist" parties will be just as antidemocratic as the "socialist" SPD of weimar as communists.

Enlightenment > Reformation

>>2071024
Most likely never, Islam is more likely to completely collapse because of their rigid dogmatism.

>>2072224
This and only this. Muhammad is an actual historic person that exists, and his sayings (Hadith) were recorded.

The only possible way for a Muslim to be progressive is if he somehow convinces himself that the vast majority of Verified Hadiths are actually false, and that the Quran can be interpreted in a non-literal way.

t. muslim

>>2074137
>there's ingkarsunnah near me
Into the fire you go!

Salafism is their reformation

>ITT: People who have never formally studied Islam, its theology or history

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>>2074244
Enlighten us, please.

>>2074244
>you are not allowed to discuss islam unless you went for a meme degree like Islamology

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>>2071503
Yes

>>2074597
>islamology
>hey guys, we're here to study what non-muslims have said about Islam, with their sources being non-muslims, with their sources being translations of translations! We're also going to apply christian history and western philosophy to muslim texts and then we're going to be confounded when we don't come to the same conclusions as muslims do.
Seriously, I got the syllabi of Islamology from several different western universities, and this is how it turns out every single time.
At the same time, though, they'll throw in "orientalism" by Said in there, so they can claim they don't do the same orientalist shit as all the others.

>>2072825
I wouldn't say it was "segregated".
Druidism was segregated.
Upper class Islam? Things like how holy men interacted with the rest of society, and alms for the poor, meant that Lower Class was still Islam. Just filthier and more... apathetic.

>but now a form of social engineering
Any religion with worshippers and priests of some kind always had that