Why is marxism so common in history works and academia, /his/?

Probably the same reason libertarianism and the Austrian school is popular among people who took a few classes at community college.

>>2070107
which is...

>>2070107

Missing the point faggot, he is asking why it is peculiar to history and sociology

Why isn't Paul Krugman a revolutionary marxist, you know? How come Friedman didn't arrive at libertarian socialism? Why are natural scientists not usually of the radical left?

>>2070090

Well lad if you think about it, college professors are basically the laziest people in modern society. They despise working, but love to command and exercise authority. As intellectuals, they believe it there right to preside over society and determine the functions of government. So naturally they will gravitate towards an ideology in which the intellectual is responsible for everything, where intellectuals in general are authorities and always well provisioned. It's quite logical.

>>2070107
>Austrian school is popular
Really ? Where ?

>>2070247
Makes sense. They all have a boner for self-styled fascism.

>>2070247
>>2071125
I am a lefty but I am sort of starting to get this sense as well. Lots of people around me are circulating that 'Stark Inequality or Total War' article and talking about it as if it's an actual real dichotomy, and these are all university grads, these are all people who would be the least affected by such a Total War scenario, but they talk about it in such a blase way and then make jokes about the guillotines running day and night.

It's not really enough to change my political leaning -- I grew up working class and am headed back there myself, which informs how I feel more than whatever the jackasses around me say -- but it's incredibly frustrating.

>>2070090

It isn't, that's just what you want to believe to fuel your perceived victimhood.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2015/03/the_prevalence_1.html

>>2070090
There are many Marxist academics for the same reasons most businessmen are fiscal conservatives. Marxism jerks off intellectuals, who are assigned a key role in educating the working class and playing a leading role in the revolution. Surprise surprise social groups tend to gravitate towards ideologies that are favourable towards them.

>>2070247
It's another episode of conflating "Marxism" with authoritarianism

>>2070247
You sound like Lenin, deriding intellectuals as "shit" who aren't as hard working as the noble proletariat.

>>2070090
Academics always try to formulate their own opinions. They just go the wrong way sometimes.

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>>2070090
Well, to understand the 'movement' of a society along history, you need to analyze it's component forces and their interaction (protip: there will be conflict, normally).

Done this, everything else goes down to ideology.

>>2070090
> Why do most smart people use marxist interpretations of X subject?
Because its fucking right. It makes sense and it works whenever you apply it to a scenario and dilute it to the most basic driving factor. Interpreting history from a marxist perspective doesnt necessarily mean the person that does it supports communism if thats what you think.

>>2070090
Marxism/Socialism/Communism is the reason South America is poor. Marx was satan.

>>2070107
First post best post

>>2071423
Except Austrian school isn't popular anywhere.

Because human beings need stories and narratives, whether or not they make sense.

>>2071167
>social sciences
>18% marxist
holy shit

>>2071416
k.

>>2071433
It's popular among teenagers and young adults.

>>2070090
It's baby's first philosophy, people learn about it and then spend all their time spreading it like it's gospel, ask a Marxist what other philosophies or philosophers they know, 9 times out of 10 they won't be able to answer you, they just enjoy pretending to be smart while talking about one set of ideas (which itself has been proven wrong).

>>2071433

It's posted here all the time. Rly makes u think

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>>2070090

It can be a great prism to analyze society things.

Now, before some people here get angry yelling at me because Marx was a bad man and his ideology killed billions of people and blablabla, think about it.

Nobody gave a shit about many things in history before Marx and Engels made up historical materialism.

Eg: If you want to have a good understanding of the Roman Empire, you need to study, at least a little bit, things related to production, economics, currency... Before Marxism, it was all about how Caesar and Augustus were great because rich dick suckers senators who happened to be the only historians in town said so. Now we can have a more objective opinion of what it was like.

And because of his new and useful ways to analyze things, he became popular among intellectuals who are inspired by his work, simply because they, too, want to understand this world better.

>>2071197
This.

>"Probably the intellectual has more difficulty than the common man in freeing himself from this ideology which, like the State which derives from it, is his especial handiwork. The Soviet government rules in the name of a doctrine elaborated by an intellectual whose life was spent in libraries and interpreted for the past century by countless other intellectuals. Under a Communist régime the intellectuals, sophists rather than philosophers, rule the roost. The examining magistrates who unmask deviations, the writers coerced into socialist realism, the engineers and managers who are supposed to execute the plans and to interpret the ambiguous orders of the central authority — all must be dialecticians. The Secretary-General of the Party, master and arbiter over the lives of millions of men, is also an intellectual: at the end of a triumphal career he offers to the faithful a theory of capitalism and socialism — as though a book represented the highest accomplishment. The emperors of old were often poets or thinkers; for the first time the emperor actually reigns qua dialectician, interpreter of the doctrine and of history."

Raymond Aron, The Opium of the Intellectuals

>>2071197
>implying communism is favorable to anyone

>>2071396
>communist "intellectual"

>>2071416
As someone who has lived his whole life in South America, I can confirm this.

>>2071453
I live in South America I see it with my own eyes. Leftist policies are the reason we can't get out of the shitty situation we are.

>>2071471
>leftist policies
Care to explain?

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>>2071474
>it's that guy that's going to insist that every policy is state capitalism again
Do you ever go to bed?

>>2071483
>no argument
ok

>>2071416
>>2071464
>>2071471

You know Marx just wrote his thoughts in books in a precise context, himself said he wasn't marxist when he became famous and saw people using his work to push their agendas.

Blaming Marx because you have a shitty country and shitty leaders would be like blaming Fichte for Nazism or Jesus for religious wars.

>>2071489
I should point out I'm not the guy you asked. I can just see your shitty strategy from a mile away.

>>2071491
>said he wasn't marxist when he became famous and saw people using his work to push their agendas
[citation needed]

>Blaming Marx because you have a shitty country and shitty leaders would be like blaming Fichte for Nazism or Jesus for religious wars.
Not really. Marx was a direct cause of the socialist regimes that ruined our countries.

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>>2070090
read this
or tl:dr they have utopian ideas of what they want society to be without taking into consideration what would actually happen implementing the ideas in real life

>>2071495
>asks for substantiation of the subject
>shitty strategy

>>2071501
>Marx was a direct cause of the socialist regimes that ruined our countries
Just for curiosity, from which SA country are you from?

>>2071464
>>2071471
> Marxist interpretations of history = communism
The shittiness of south america isnt because of leftism. Its because of colonial withdrawl of resources. Its because of corrupt people being able to take advantage of their positions. Its because of no collective integrity or work ethic.
Let me guess you and your friends would be great business men if only you grew up n america. You are out to get yours and have tons of ambition. And you are definitely not part of the problem.

Ignorance.

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>>2071474
>liberalism and radical anticlericalism in the xixth century
>social democracy and statism in the 20th century
>democratic socialism and Cultural Marxist progressivism in the 21st century

Latin America is always at the vanguard of ideologies. The shit Europe produces but don't apply on themselves? We import it wholesale and apply it the hardest way.

>>2071501

For the citation, it would be hard to find on the Internet in English, Marx said that in his last years many times, one of the guys who reported it was a french named Paul Lafargue, maybe you can dig it up.

You are using Marx as a bogeyman and he does not deserve it, the people who use his thoughts to push their agendas are the villains you are after. The state of the actual or former socialist regimes can not be put all on this guy back. Beside I don't really have the time to talk about how the problems of your country can not be put all on one thing because it's more complex, and it would be off topic.

>>2071528
The whole point of Marxist interpretation of history is to justify communism.

As Marx himself said, the job of the intellectual isn't to understand the world, but to change it. Marxist history is therefore fraudulent on purpose because being dishonest is part of their revolutionary praxis.

>>2071515
>Just for curiosity, from which SA country are you from?
Does it matter?
Socialism has ruined countries like Chile, Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil.
>inb4 not real socialism
We know, it's trying to implement Socialism that failed.
See pic related, which is real wages during Allende's Socialism in Chile. Fucking 66% decrease in 3 years!

>>2071528
>Its because of colonial withdrawl of resources.
Wrong. That has nothing to do with it. See: Argentina, who used to be richer than Spain at the start of the 20th century.

>Its because of corrupt people being able to take advantage of their positions.
Yeah, because of socialism and/or leftist policies that allowed such governments.

>Its because of no collective integrity or work ethic.
Wrong. Chile works far more hours than any other OECD country. Is that a lack of work ethic? No.

>Let me guess you and your friends would be great business men if only you grew up n america.
I'm pretty sure someone living in Venezuela would agree with that statement, but what do you know?

>Ignorance.
Irony.

>>2071535
>no citation given
Yeah, I knew it. Don't tell me to look up something that doesn't exist.

>You are using Marx as a bogeyman and he does not deserve it
He absolutely does. Sure, he's not the only one responsible for it, but he's the one that triggered it all. If there was a single person I could have wished was never born it's Marx.

>Beside I don't really have the time to talk about how the problems of your country can not be put all on one thing because it's more complex, and it would be off topic.
I know there are many, but he was one of the most important ones.

>>2071203
You can have authoritarianism that's not Marxist but you can't have a Marxism that's not authoritarian.

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>>2071515
Here is the pic

>inb4 "muh CIA did it!"
They CIA did nothing to actually lower wages and that Kissinger quote doesn't prove anything.

>>2071537
no, you can still use a marxist analysis without advocating communism

academia is currently marxist because they are developing on ideas developed in the 60s and 70s by french intellectuals, mostly marxists, or radical socialists who wrote a large amount of texts generally in the marxist flavour.

these theories presented by the marxists theorists of french flavour are accepted for a variety of reasons: most academics are baby boomers or slightly younger, thus naturally are living (thinking or interpreting reality) among an intellectual context that was popular at the time they went to school or developed intellectually, marxists of the french style of the 60s. another reason is more complex, mostly marxist is en-vogue for historical reasons aka european intellectuals who influenced everyone hated fascism, quite rightly because of the holocaust and the destructive of europe. another is these theories apparent applicability in viewing our society and economy; this also allows, because of the popular style that all academics must write in (as if they are too uncreative to create new styles, hiding lack of actual content, etc) articles which are verbose, lengthy, and arcane , much can be written and developed ( something all academics have to do, publish papers, continually). another fun reason is the crossing of lines amongst disciplines: marxist theories can be applied to feminism, sociology, psychology, etc, all of this also leads, obviously, to more of the same type of content mentioned above.

>>2071551
No one in the real world ever did that.

>>2071528
Colonial withdrawl of resources? we have plenty of resources. Countries with less resources are richer.
>corrupt people being able to take advantage of their positions
corruption that is easier to flourish because we are full of state companies. Politicians take advantage of that.

>no collective integrity or work ethic.
What a load of bullshit

>Let me guess you and your friends would be great business men if only you grew up n america.
we are at the 100th+ place at the ranking of countries with the most economic freedom. While USA is at 12th place. So even if I'm a shitty business man I would have way way more chances in the USA than here.

>>2071543
i see you've fallen for the capitalist propaganda, whereby they purposely ruin socialist countries and tell you it's a fault of socialism

>>2071551
Any Marxist analysis inherently has a virtue bias though. Since it's always based on conflict between oppressors and the oppressed, any Marxist analysis will inherently be communist. You can't say group X is oppressing group Y and pretend to impartial.

>>2070090
The Christian idea that history is leading towards paradise is deeply embedded in western culture, even after Christianity itself was discarded. Marxism offers a secular reskin of the idea which is very appealing to post-Christian intellectuals.

>>2070209
Natural scientists tend to believe in the Singularity/transhumanism/Star Trek instead to fulfill their western religious needs.

at a guess because it is very easy to look at history through a marxist lens, forming your own ideological opinion or finding some other one is tougher, i've barely read marx and I can surmise how I would analyze history from a marxist perspective

>>2071537
Its not though and thats what you troglodytes dont understand. You hear marx and automatically shut your mind down with communism alarms. What marx's ideas were on where the world should go do not enter into his application of historical interpretation. Looking at history through the lens of materialism and class has proven to be the most correct. There are plenty of capitalists and socialists that use his interpretation to justify their theories.

Just admit that you dont know what the fuck you are talking about.

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>>2071543
>Yeah, I knew it. Don't tell me to look up something that doesn't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism#Classical_Marxism

I believe you are in bad faith, yet I will give it to you, Wikipedia is the best I can do since I can't send books trough 4chan.

To calm your butthurtness, here's an USSRball meme I find highly amusing.

>>2071554
what is post-marxism? frankfurt school?

>>2071562
>the real world is capitalist propaganda
Oh, how could I have been so blind!

Marxists have their brains replaced with cow shit, seriously.

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>>2071581
Advocates of communism.

Pic related. "Post-Marxist" authors who supported the socialist regime of Hugo Chávez in Venezuela.

>>2071566
no, you can analyse without advocating. but one cannot advocate without analysis. not to be confused

>>2071578
>Looking at history through the lens of materialism and class has proven to be the most correct.

No it doesn't. It has proved to be the most changeable according to different situations, though, which is why it always survives refutations and the embarassing failures of it's predictions.

>>2071582
>he unironically uses phrases like "real world" without once thinking it is propaganda

capitalists dindu nuffin, they good boys

south America will always be a poor anarchic shithole regardless if implements capitalism or socialism

desu

>>2071554

Only people who aren't communists, since Marxism shaped the whole understanding we have of the world. You need to face it.

It's like religion, you can be atheist, yet your moral values will be inevitably aligned to the biblic ones. Studying history and human science without Marx's work would be like studying mechanics without Newton's work.

>>2071590
where did baudrillard advocate for communism?

>>2071598
>all the disasters brought to the world thanks to Socialism and Communism never happened and are only capitalist propaganda
Why don't you go back to your echo-chamber instead?

Let's not even mention that "propaganda" means anything that's not hardcore socialism.

>>2071612
Not really. Chile is doing very well because they are capitalist. Unlike Venezuela which is "not real socialism".

>>2071612
The past proves you wrong but whatever.

Communism and libertarianism are both shit, we've had this discussion a thousand times before, cmon guys.

>>2071618
>all the disasters brought to the world were caused by socialism and communism existing in a vacuum, and capitalists had no problem with an enemy ideology existing so close to its borders

there's dumb, but then there's dumb. you're the latter

>>2071543
> colonialism had nothing to do with the poverty of SA
It most certainly did. Just because some courties bounced back does not mean it did not have a negative impact. The whole point of colonialism is to extract resources for cheap. Your are straight up retarded if you think otherwise. The only benefits are cultural exchange and technology innovation which you guys did better than africa and india in getting

> corrupt because of scialist gov
Because capitalist governments are notorious for being corrupt literally all the time. Its written into the laws unlike in socialist governments. Also I hate to break it you, but corruption in Russia is much worse now that it ever was under any soviet leader, and less than under the tsar. So there goes that theory.

> Chile works more hours
Again, one country does not an arguement make. You cant look me in the eye and tell me that south americans have a cultural work ethic that is equal to that of Europeans, Asians, Arabs, and Indians. SA culture is largely about taking it easy, enjoying your life, and having fun. You guys have fucking siestas.

> Im pretty sure someone living in Venezuaela would agree with that statement, what would you know?
Thats because thats what everyone who doesnt live in a capitalist western country says. But if you had ever been to a capitalist country you would know that chances are you would just end up being another brick in the wall like you are now.

> Irony
Closed mindedness

>>2070090

I think there are two big draws for academics: Firstly, it's out of fashion and indeed downright subversive. Secondly, it has a huge wealth of academic works covering it and consequently requires a considerable investment of time and effort to master. This gives it value as a method of signalling how well-read and "politically correct" you are to other academics, most of whom are naturally left-liberal and so receptive to the message of Marxism.

>>2071618
>Chile is doing very well because they are capitalist.
lel Santiago is a sea of favelas and full of gasoline huffers

>>2071554
Mosta academics do that

>>2071640
i don't think many people here have read any academics at all, let alone marxist ones

>>2071594
> its proven to be the most applicable and adaptable
Somehow thats bad. That means it works you dumbfuck

>>2071647
Why would anyone want to read historical fanfiction? :^)

>>2071618
>Chile is doing very well because they are capitalist.
No, Chile is doing pretty badly right now, just like every other neoliberal country. It's pretty silly that people are still denying it even after Brexit and Trump.

>>2071559
Im not saying colonialism is the sole cause of your problems. But having more resources for use would put you in a better position. For the rest see:
>>2071634

>>2071656
...when you can write your own about academics without reading any :^)

>>2071659
At least they have toilet paper, as opposed to Venezuela socialist paradise.

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>>2071632
Apparently, the cause for the Great Starvation in China was caused by the capitalist. Well, who would have thought about it!?

>>2071634
You are right with your first paragraoh, but not when it stopped being a thing a hundred years ago. Like I said, Argentina is a good example of this. Also, you don't need many natural resources to be rich.

Second paragraph, all kinds of governments are corrupt, but particularly leftists and even more socialists more than their counterparts.
Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc. were all corrupt.
>corruption in Russia is much worse now that it ever was under any soviet leader
Doubt it, as there aren't any more mass executions.

>Again, one country does not an arguement make.
Almost every south american country works more hours than their european counterpart.
>You cant look me in the eye and tell me that south americans have a cultural work ethic that is equal to that of Europeans, Asians, Arabs, and Indians.
You are right, they aren't equal, they work even more.

>SA culture is largely about taking it easy, enjoying your life, and having fun. You guys have fucking siestas.
Fucking ignorant. I wouldn't be surprised if you tell me you are a US citizen now.

>But if you had ever been to a capitalist country you would know that chances are you would just end up being another brick in the wall like you are now.
Tell that to someone from Argentina then. It's way easier to succeed at the US than over there.

>Closed mindedness
Arrogant.

>>2071638
Santiago de Cuba, you mean?

>>2071659
>we are doing pretty bad
>even though it's the country with less poverty in south america
I think that's a win for "neoliberalism".

Brexit and Trump have nothing to do with this, wtf

>>2071666
Exactly.

>>2071650
If it did work the Soviet Union would still exist, since the whole country was based on the doctrine of Marxism.

>>2071615
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/baudrillard/

>Like many on the Left, Baudrillard was disappointed that the French Communist Party did not support the radical ‘60s movements and he also distrusted the official Marxism of theorists like Louis Althusser who he found dogmatic and reductive.

He basically was more communist than the Communist Party itself.

>>2071696
> Stalin corrupt
I was referencing economic corruption. Purges and executions are more political crime than embezzaling and shit like that. Stalin died pennyless with no property, so he was definitely ot economically corrupt.

> working more hours
Citation needed

> Ignorant about SA culture
What are the main tenants of your culture then? I know family is big, but that only adds to nepotism and corruption.

> Its easier to succeed in the US
The US is the only superpower in the world and controls the largest portion of the worlds economy. No shit its easier to succeed here. No one is questioning the success of the US, we are saying your countries are shit for reasons other than not having capitalism.

> Arrogant
Education may seem like arrogance to some

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>>2071659
its doing the best out of all south american countries kys commie faggot

>>2071760
lmao, considering Stalin owned all of the Soviet Union on practical terms, you are completely wrong.

>Citation needed
Working Hours by OECD countries
2nd place: Mexico (2200)
6th place: Chile (2000)
37th place: Norway (1400)
39th place: Germany (1400)

You were saying?

>What are the main tenants of your culture then?
That's where you are wrong. There is not even unifying culture. Brazilians complain that there is no Brazilian culture, so how could it even be possible the whole continent have a similar culture? It's not possible.

>we are saying your countries are shit for reasons other than not having capitalism.
Except that's the main reason. Colonization was 200 years ago, working ethic? we work more, corruption? caused by left/socialist governments.

>Education may seem like arrogance to some
Hey, I'm not the one who has no idea on what he's talking about!

>>2071773
Exactly. Funnily enough, this was done thanks to "evil" Pinochet, meanwhile, "holy" Castro managed to get Cuba stuck in time.
>inb4 "muh free stuff"
They are still a failure. More people die from desnutrition in Communist Cuba than they do in capitalist UK. So, yeah, hurray!

>>2071707
A country was based on a form of historical interpretation? Do you even know what this thread is talking about? You are conflating two different things and the point of the thread is that you can be view history from a marxist perspective without advocating for communism. Yes the USSR was based partially off of marxist theory, does that mean thats the only option you have? Like there are many forms of communim, there are even more forms of economic models that are not communism.
That being said the fall of the USSR isnt even a good reason for saying econmic marxism doesnt work. It was in competiton form the start with the west and in particular a capitalist superpower called the US. Anyone who knows economics knows that communism doesnt have the same potential speed of growth that capitalism does. It has a slower groth rate up or down, while capitalism fluctuates wildely leading to booms and recessions. Consdering the USSRs role and damage incured in WWII, it is actually pretty impressive what they accomplished. The problem with the USSR were mainly its human rights violations. If you remember the Soviet Union was voted out of existance, it didnt collapse economically. It was very clearly a political turover.

Dont make the mistake of thinking Im advocating for the soviet union either, Im just saying that pointing to its collapse and saying thats why economic marxism doesnt work is stupid for anyone who has studied the country. There are better examples.

>>2071773
>implying I'm a commie
>implying I'm not laughing at you for arguing that catshit is better than dogshit
Failed economic policies are failed economic policies, no matter what ideological asshole they fell out of

>>2071845
>Chile's economic policy is a failed one
Retard.

>>2071543

resentful idiot. move along folks.

>>2071814
> Being the leader of a country means you own it
ok...All the modern dictators of the world have vast amounts of private wealth. Their friends have vast amounts of private wealth. Stalin had nothing, his friends had nothing, he had the priveledges of a leader but where have you read about the luxurious life of Stalin?

> Working hours
Socialist governments usually limit working hours to a humane amount. So maybe your governments arent as left as you think. Greece is also in the 2000s so all that tells me is that the poor countries try to work their citizens more, but if you have ever heard of anyone from greece you would know that they dont do shit either.

> There is no unifying culture
What a load of crap. Look at any world competion all the latin coutnries represent themselves the same way. Spanish language books always talk about the differenct cultures in SA and what they do. Latin immigrants always talk about ther country ad their culture compared to ours. Shut the fuck up about not having a unifying culture.

> Absence of capitalism
Mexico is about as socialist as donald trump is mexican, yet they have high man hours and are a shithole

>Im not the one who has no idea what he's talking about
Hopefully the country you are in becomes capitalist and you see how much poorer and worse off your countrymen will be.

>>2071158
>I never read Bordiga

Communists BTFO >>2071873

>>2071856
>Isn't that a Mexican thing?
Yes. Did you really think the burger above would have any idea about it? Now, it is true that some other countries have the siesta concept, but it's barely done. The siesta thing was born out of a necessity for the kind of climates around the tropics.

>>2071696
>Well, who would have thought about it!?

you keep telling yourself that the capitalists have not once interacted with communists

>>2071718
where is it in his analysis?

>>2071696
Capitalism was not superseded in China. It was a deliberate project of industrialization analogous to the industrial revolution. Your whole post is trash by default. Please stop saying stupid things.

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>>2071879
>Being a totalitarian dictator of a country means you own the country in practical terms
There, fixed for you.

>Stalin had nothing, his friends had nothing, he had the priveledges of a leader but where have you read about the luxurious life of Stalin?
Turns our not even Tankies know enough about Stalin.
Pic related, Stalin's summer house. Just a modest house, definitely not a luxury. Nevermind this was one of many houses he had.

>Socialist governments usually limit working hours to a humane amount.
So does every country. 8 hours.

>So maybe your governments arent as left as you think.
Maybe because they work more hours than should be legally possible? They still work more than Europeans, which is the point that we were making, now you are moving goalposts.

>if you have ever heard of anyone from greece you would know that they dont do shit either.
Sure, not being able to find a job qualifies as being content with not doing anything. Nevermind you won't be able to earn money.

>Shut the fuck up about not having a unifying culture.
We really don't. European culture is more of a thing than south american one even. There is no unifying culture, and I dare you to find an academic paper that corroborates your view.

>>2071890
Of course they have, you dumb fuck. Nobody likes their property being stolen away and their citizens being murder and restricted from free speech. What kind of an idiot are you really?

>>2071905
Thanks for proving my point that capitalists had nothing to do with China's Great Starvation and that the only one to blame here is Communism and their advocates.

>>2071879
His example of Brazil is correct. The way you see us is the same way we see the generalized fat American that eats lots of burger.

If you think that in a country the size of Brazil, everyone will be exactly the same, I don't know what to tell you.

>>2071416

>MUH GDP is the most reliable indicator of wealth

>>2071921
>Of course they have, you dumb fuck

so could it be that capitalism has had a lot of input into the collapse of socialist countries? makes you thing

my point actually isn't to say that capitalists caused all socialist collapse, but i'm offering a counter-point to the idea that they all collapsed due to internal factors rather than external. it's literal propaganda, to think that the true course of history happens to support the side that you like and they they are entirely blameless. the reality is much more complex, more so than your meme history lets on, and it is not sufficient to take up the banner of one side or the other, but approach the matter historically instead of politically

there's never only one factor in something happening

>>2071932
Do you understand what culture is? No one ever said all the countries in latin america or the people in them were the same. But you guys certainly share a culture. The burger eating, starbucks drinking, overweight (soon to be going away as we have been health conscious for a long time), gun toting, religous american is representative of american culture. Is everyone here like that, no, but its a generalization. Its a stereotype based on our cultural values. Saying that latin america doesnt have a culture is a rediculous statement, you may think you dont if you are from there, but you definitely do to everyone around you. Just like europe does. Just like asia does.

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>>2070247
>college professors are basically the laziest people

>>2071416
>Thanks for proving my point that capitalists had nothing to do with China's Great Starvation and that the only one to blame here is Communism and their advocates.

Don't worry, I already wrote your next post.
"No, no, it's not that they were romantic revolutionaries "building productive forces" AKA supervising capitalist development, let me just be every shit-for-brains anticommunist and say the same dogshit that every ignorant ideologue tells everyone about communism because I'm an outstanding moral and practical liberal figure"

>>2071814
>2nd place: Mexico (2200)
>6th place: Chile (2000)
>37th place: Norway (1400)
>39th place: Germany (1400)
I hope you realize the above two are neolibreal shitholes while the bottom are social democratic state with union presence

>>2071940
>so could it be that capitalism has had a lot of input into the collapse of socialist countries? makes you thing
No. China proves you wrong. So does Cambodia.

>i'm offering a counter-point to the idea that they all collapsed due to internal factors rather than external
If they failed because of external factors they failed. End of discussion. Failing is failing, regardless if the "evil capitalist" stopped trading with you or if your country happened to have bad weather.

>it's literal propaganda, to think that the true course of history happens to support the side that you like and they they are entirely blameless.
I never implied any of this. I wouldn't have a problem being a socialist/communism had they not been such utter failures. In fact, I used to have a neutral and even semi positive opinion on said ideologies before I made my own research to conclude that both were utter shit. And no, capitalist intervention is almost irrelevant at explaining the failure that is socialism.

>there's never only one factor in something happening
Funny how you are the one claiming they mostly failed because of capitalist intervention.
Do you really think I'm the one who's pushing the story that "the true course of history happens to support the side that you like"?
You are a joke.

>>2071955
>But you guys certainly share a culture.
No, that wrong. Chilean culture is differnet from culture from Argentina, is different from culture of Southern Brazi, is different from culture of Mexico, etc.
If this doesn't convince you, take Argentina which is mostly composed of people of European descent (80%) and Bolivia (20%). They are obviously going to have a lot of cultural differences.

>Saying that latin america does have a culture is a rediculous statement
Fixed for you.

>but you definitely do to everyone around you
Why are all americans so dumb and fat who do nothing but shop at Walmart all day? Phew!

>commies are so butt-blasted that their ideology doesn't work that their only chance to win an argument is to make strawmans in advance

>>2071982
That's besides the point I was trying to make.
Feel free to move goalposts next time.

>>2071980
>how to say nothing in a hundred words
Beautiful poetry, anon.

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>>2071955
What about the rascal. You forgot the rascal.

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This is how non-US people see US people, as ignorant people who don't know anything


>>2071998
And the drinking hats with straws!

>>2071992
I wasnt the person you were arguing but seeing you using social democracies to counter a socialist is hilarious.

Also comparing neoliberal economies with social democratic economies for difference work culture is disingenuous. Pick another European country that isn't a social democracy

>>2071921
> dicators
owning the country in pracital terms if thats in your job description does not make you corrupt is what I was getting at. There needs to be something more.

>Tankie
I must discredit my opponent by calling him a communist!

>Stalins summerhouse
Not a government retreat right? His children definitely inherited that right?

> So does every country
What is india and southeast asia

> Work more than eurpoeans
Being at work and working are two different things. I can clock in then sit at my job and do nothing. How is it possible that you guys work so much and get nothing done? You are told do something right? What is it you do?

> Not being able to find a job
What happened to your entrepreneurial spirit. Why dont they just start business and selling products door to door like all the great capitalists say they started.

> Find a paper on Latin culture
Here is a long ass wikipedia article on it. Its longer than most of the historical ones on there. If wikipedia is not accpetable cuz not peer reviewed, then simply go to the bottom where they have a compilation of links to sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_American_culture

>>2072008
>seeing you using social democracies to counter a socialist is hilarious
Not the point I was trying to make. I only said south american people worked more hours.

>Also comparing neoliberal economies with social democratic economies for difference work culture is disingenuous. Pick another European country that isn't a social democracy
Switzerland and the UK. They still work less than Mexico and Chile.

>>2071986
You are missing the point entirely. Yes, individual countries obviously have their own cultures that are different then those around them. However, european countries share a large amount of culture and tradition. Asian countries also share a large amount of culture and tradition. Middle eastern countries share a large amount of culture and tradition.
That american comment doesnt piss me off because it is an appropriate genrealization. Its nothing to get angry at.
Lets put it this way. Without writers tell you and without seeing someones face, you could easily tell if someone was from europe, asia, america, or SA based on their langauge, the way they act, what and how they eat, etc. If you had to narrow it down further you may have problems unless you are an expert in that area. That indicates a common culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_American_culture

>>2071986
>China proves you wrong.

what a nonsense phrase. china isn't the only socialist country. neither is cambodia. you obviously don't understand what i'm trying to demonstrate: that your single-sentence 'arguments' prove nothing and i can just easily switch the wording around and provide to you the same quality of argument. you think in memes which is not suited to historical discussion.

>or if your country happened to have bad weather.

yeah the damn 'disaster' of communism brought about bad weather! what are you talking about my man

>I never implied any of this.

yes you have. you seem to think that capitalists can do no wrong, there have been no capitalist disasters, no starvations in capitalist countries, no failure of capitalism. you're speaking to me ideologically, i'm replying to you in a similar way to show you the fault of your ideological thinking

>Funny how you are the one claiming they mostly failed because of capitalist intervention.

can you not read properly? i said "my point actually isn't to say that capitalists caused all socialist collapse, but i'm offering a counter-point"

again, the point is so show you the failings of your own reasoning.

>Do you really think I'm the one who's pushing the story that "the true course of history happens to support the side that you like"?

clearly you are since you actually believe what you are saying compared to what i have been doing. if you have any problems with my argumentation keep in mind that i am mimicking yours

even the green-text-and-response format shows how bad you are at thinking. you can't engage in prolonged discourse to the point where you can't remember sentences i have said to begin the paragraph when you address the sentences later in the paragraph. your 'studies' apparently just confirmed your biases and gave you pithy cocktail politics one-liners where you can show off how much you're interested in history without demonstrating any in-depth knowledge

>>2072033
For the same job type? Proofs?

>>2072015
Not the guy you're arguing with
Brazil for example:
>Bureaucratic hurdles remain common, including lengthy processes for launching a business and obtaining permits. The non-salary cost of employing a worker adds to the cost of doing business, and labor regulations remain stringent. In 2015, surging state-administered prices for gasoline, electricity, and transport—all heavily subsidized before the 2014 presidential election—caused inflation to reach its highest level in over a decade.

>The income tax rate is 27.5 percent. The standard corporate tax rate is 15 percent, but a financial transactions tax, 10 percent surtax, and 9 percent social contribution on net profits bring the effective rate to 34 percent. The overall tax burden amounts to 33.4 percent of GDP. Public spending equals over one-third of GDP, and fiscal stimulus efforts have increased chronic deficits. Public debt equals about 65 percent of GDP.

>Brazil’s limited experiment with market-oriented reforms has been uneven and even derailed in some areas. The state’s presence in such sectors as energy, financial services, and electricity remains extensive. The legacy of decades of central planning, state meddling in economic activity continues even where it has demonstrably failed, and the weak rule of law further undermines economic progress.
The onerous regulatory environment hinders needed economic transformation and undercuts realization of the economy’s full potential. Growing public debt and higher debt service costs have kept fiscal pressure high, and burdensome taxes further crowd out private-sector growth.

>>2072094
Brazil isnt doing anything right. From what I understand there is a high amount of corruption there and not a lot of actual public service.

A tax of 34% is not that high. There are socialist countries in europe where it is over the 50% mark or around there. The corporate tax is probably higher than it should be, but that is also because I am sure the corporations that are there find loopholes to avoid paying.

Regulation seems unecessary and stifling especially to the young capitalist hoping to start a business, but they are very necessary and need to be done right. W/o them corporations take advantage of the workers and the government providing only benefit to themselves. More jobs isnt a good thing when the conditions and wages are shit. History shows that unbridled capitalism leads to some truely terrible shit and the same difficulties for small business because they jeust cant compete. That being said Brazils corruption makes those regulations useless. So you are getting forced regulation on the poor with corruption and loopholes for the established which leads to the shithole that is brazil.

Im not denying that a systemic change is necessary there, nor do I ave a solution because I do not know much about Brazil. I was simply arguing with the other anon that all of SA problems come from leftist policy, which is just not true.

>>2071446
co-signed, I've taught a lot about this. Any other thought around this?

>>2070090
Education correlates with empathy

>>2070090
>is
It's not anymore though. Why do you keep making threads like this?

>>2070090
Because educated, intelligent people are attracted to good ideas.

>>2071416
It's not at all the reason South America is poor. The West, primarily the US, is why South America is poor.

>>2071464
As someone who has lived his whole life in South America, I can deconfirm this.

>>2071416

People always distort history to tell whatever story that they want to hear.

South America is one of the most exploitable places on Earth with plenty of natural resources. It's only natural that powerful nations have effectively globalized the area, creating high demand for certain products, and ruining local economies.

>>2071409
>historians and sociologists
>smart

>>2071956
what is wrong with that statement you think they work hard? doesn't mean they are bad but come on

>>2073223
>It's everybody else's fault south america is full of violence, corruption, poor/no infrastructure, poverty and organized crime
Sure thing, buddy

I really hate these shit flinging arguments makes everyone look real dumb

>>2071760
dude you are embarrassing

>>2071955
>>2071879
how dumb can you get

>>2071829

>That being said the fall of the USSR isnt even a good reason for saying econmic marxism doesnt work

Not that guy but I'm gonna put my two cents in and say that it's actually a perfect example of why economic marxism doesn't work. The USSR suffered from food shortages throughout it's entire existence and relied heavily on aid from the West throughout the Cold War. In fact it also only lasted as long as it did because of the enormous amount of economic aid it received from the US through the Lend-Lease Act. It was incapable of being competitive economically, scientifically and culturally.

>If you remember the Soviet Union was voted out of existance, it didnt collapse economically

Because the system was unsustainable, there's a reason why many Soviet leaders were in favor of a more market oriented economy.

EVERYTHING I DON'T AGREE WITH IS PROPAGANDA

>>2071939
Are you actually suggesting South America isn't a backwater economic shithole?

>>2071760
>being an American communist
You deserve to be fucking strangled.

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>>2070247
>college professors are basically the laziest people in modern society.

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>>2070247
Holy fuck

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>>2071537
This is a nonsense syllogism

>>2073563
and historical materialism contradicts itself

>>2071773
You said that like if it were a big thing lol

because the fucking kikes like writing

>>2073988
Why do you have to contaminate other boards with your hateful nonsense? Why not just stay on /pol/?

>>2073992
I'm not the one calling other people's opinions contamination and telling them to leave the board. You sound like the hateful one to me.
Its just a statistical fact that Jews dominate literature and most prominent Marxists are Jews. That's an objective fact. Your the one projecting emotions onto reality.

>>2071167

>18% of marxists in social sciences
>perceived victimhood

>>2071634

> You guys are taking siestas, eating tacos, and dancing flamenco every day.

Let me tell you about your country.

>>2071205
>>2071956

The average tenured college professor in America works 5 hours per week. Most of their teaching responsibilities are delegated to graduate students and part timers.

>>2074646
>In this piece, the median hours per week for a Professor was 58 hrs

>On average, faculty participants reported working 61 hours per week – more than 50 percent over the traditional 40-hour work week. They worked 10 hours per day Monday to Friday and about that much on Saturday and Sunday combined. Perhaps surprisingly, full professors reported working slightly longer hours both during the week and on weekends than associate and assistant professors, as well as chairs.

inb4 blogspot sources and conspiracy theories """""""""proving"""""""" without a doubt marx and lenin """""""""right"""""""""

>>2071203
read Solzhenitsyn and try to use that logic again.

>>2074670

>self-reported hours

>>2071409

Interpreting history from a marxist perspective doesnt necessarily mean the person that does it supports communism

I have read few, if any professional historical works that do this

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>>2071491

Its more like blaming jesus for people building churches.