Should Christians take Genesis literally, /his/?

>>2043982
Depends. I think we need the other books from the New Testament that were taken out to properly understand . Also parts are obviously supposed to be metaphors or proverbs and others are not. Sorting them out can be hard.

Yes.

RC Sproul already talked about this in one of his amazing seminars. Genesis is a narrative book, therefore literal.

The only ones who talk about ""symbolism"" and ""metaphors"" are those ashamed to be Christians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lktmmd7YnD8

Over 200 ancient flood stories that talk about:
>A global flood that covered the entire world
>A family of 8 surviving on a boat
>A large tower was built after

Too much evidence to ignore. The Bible is historical fact.

>>2043982

only if youre a white nigger

>>2043982

Of course not. If you take Genesis literally, then you're stuck with the conclusion that Satan is not, in fact, the Serpent of Eden, thus contradicting the New Testament, and putting you in a bind as a Christian.

>>2044010
0/10

>>2043982

Writing as a Christian I think it's fucking retarded that people take the words of FUCKING NOMADIC HERDERS 2500+ YEARS AGO literally, even if they were mediators of the word of God

You can literally point a telescope at the sky and read God's immanent design yourself.

you need to. otherwise
>the bible is wrong

Non-literalists tend to assume that man is on a continuous intellectual and for some "spiritual" journey. They tend to believe that education and position guarantees understanding. The Bible writers, in their view, where not equipped to understand God as well as we can today or they reject the idea that the writers knew God at all. They believe that the Bible was not inspired to anticipate our culture. Many also believe that the Bible writers misinterpreted reality, manufactured stories and that the spiritual stuff was probably a delusion. Yet they often attempt to honor the Bible writers in some way. For instance after telling you all the mistakes they think they have found, they say, "But the prophet really had some good points here. He was right!" But in fact they are correcting the prophet and presenting their own (better) message. This viewpoint is due to a number of poor ideas, biases and errors that they apply to their interpretation.

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>>2044007
SNOWNIGGER PRIDE WORLD WIDE

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It is the word of God.

Yes.

Define 'literal'.

>>2044238
IT WAS 2500+ YEARS AGO HAHA ITS WRONG BECAUSE CURRENT YEAR

Empiricism is a far more archaic system.

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>>2044427
Yeah sure whatever you say Luther

>Language is subjective and flawed, meaning must be interpretted by a reader
>Bible is written in a human language
>Bible is written in different languages with different grammar, words and norms
>Those languages and the context within which they existed have been dead for millenia
>Bibile is translated/revised through generations of completely different people with differing levels of familiarity with the original and new languages
>Bible is literal and infalliable
>The specific edition of the bible I have in 2016 in my bookshelf is literal and infaliable

Yeah right. Please don't give me the bullshit that god divinely inspired everyone of those different writers/translators to get it exactly right.

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>>2044469

>My definition is the literal one

I hate that, thats why ill never be a practicing christian.

>>2043982
Answer: No.

Why: The Catholic Church says so and it is the final authority regarding all matters of faith and morals.

Case closed.

>>2043982
Adam and Eve is a story about how Man is made into a fool by Woman and her silly excuse. The Serpent could have been anything.

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>>2044699
Nope the deceiver has scales.

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>>2044238
Yes, those fools that take the Bible literally. Now allow me to take the part that talks about God himself literally while I berate others for taking the fucking thing literally.

10/10

>>2044494
>Language is subjective and flawed, meaning must be interpretted by a reader

Language preference may be subjective but its rules are objective. Different languages, different rules sure. But the rules the reader is dealing with doesn't change because of the readers' opinions or feelings.

There can be wrong interpretations but there are right ones. This goes for anything.

1+1=2 is infallible and it is objective. But you can have idiots and arrogant people argue for days what that means and some will interpret symbols differently. Of course this sounds less likely for math and people arguing about 1+1=2 sounds crazy. But there are people who argue about very easy mathematical statements and concepts. (but more difficult than simple arithmetic).

The reasons why something like the Bible would get much more debate and controversy than something like math, other than the language, are morality, politics, social issues and personal agenda. Further the Bible is easily accessible by anyone which can easily make it open to any interpretation. There is an infinite number of wrong interpretations.
>Bible is literal and infalliable
While I don't think the Bible is infallible and I'm not sure theologians would necessarily believe it to be so as it isn't even supposed to be God's literal word, it being literal and infallible would have nothing to do with whether or not some people choose to not get understand it or be incapable of understanding it.

>>2044000
>stories
>evidence
Anon, really?

Also, have you not considered the fact that the dawn of agriculture and civilization is preceded by the end of the last ice age, with a significant and sometimes violent rise in sea levels.


also, have you not considered the fact that the dawn of agriculture and civilization is preceded by

>>2044991
>hundreds of ancient societies from all over the world with no contact tell of the same events
>(((pure coincidence)))

>>2044469
>papists hate the bible this much
Kek

>>2044693
Catholics aren't Christian

>>2045009
>Hundreds of ancient societies from all over world with no contact have a God of Fire
>Hundreds of ancient societies from all over the world with no contact belive that certain old women have spiritual powers
>Hundreds of etc. etc. etc.

Certain thematic or structural similarities in the mythological and religious traditions of certain cultures is not evidence they share a common source

>>2045009
not a coincidence
they all experienced the same events. rising sea levels and the floods that came with it.

>>2043982
Yes, take all of it literally. Otherwise you're just bullshitting yourself. All or nothing, everything in-between is just cherrypicking to make yourself feel good.

>>2045035
Category error. The flood is a detailed historic event. If it were just a myth it would not exist in so many cultures, let alone with such great similarity.
>they all experienced the same events
Yes, a global flood.

>>2045104
meant to link >>2045080

>>2045106
I mean it's somewhat appropriate because what I posted disproves your reply to it

Unless you want to tell me witches must be real?

>>2045142
*tips fedora*

The account of the earth's creation could be argued (I'm more a literalist myself, but God's time is not our time), but without the events concerning Adam and Eve, the rest of the Bible kind of falls apart. It wasn't just two people getting kicked out of Earth's VIP section, it was describing the fall of mankind into our current state of existence. Without this specific pretext, Christ's life, ministry, and sacrifice are robbed of much of their meaning.

Lining ones understanding with the Word of God should be more important than trying to appeal to the ever changing (yet consistently misguided) sensibilities of the World. Many have faced worse than a couple of jokes at their expense for maintaining their faith.

>>2044746
>But the rules the reader is dealing with doesn't change because of the readers' opinions or feelings.

Except what clearly is changed is how the rules interact with eachother.

If the wording is ambiguous then it is up to the interpreter to make sense of it according to their biases.

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>>2043982
Literal reading of the bible is something the world can thank American Christians for...

>>2044000
>Over 200 ancient flood stories that talk about:
>>A global flood that covered the entire world
sure
>>A family of 8 surviving on a boat
no
>>A large tower was built after
no

>>2045274
>implying literal reading streams haven't existed since early times

>>2045327
Yes they were called heretics.

Yes.

Anti-literalists are compromisers.

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Of course.

>DUDE METAPHORS LMAO

>>2043982
Christians should rediscover the difference between faith and fact.
Fact is something that is.
Faith is something that, regardless of it being or not, you act as if it is.

Example:
If I work hard, I will succeed. Everyone knows this isn't necessarily true, and that some people don't succeed despite working hard. Despite that, people still work hard, BELIEVING that they will succeed. Not knowing that they will succeed, but acting as if they know that they will succeed.
Belief is the process of acting as if any claim X is true, even if you don't know it to be true, or even despite knowing it to not be true.

So acting as if there is a God, and haven, and hell, and good, and evil, even if you don't know them to exist (and nobody knows them to exist) is faith. In fact, you can act as if they existed, even if you know them to not exist. That is faith, and that is what religion was meant to be, before stupid people got a hold of it and failed to comprehend it.

Protuip: the greeks knew that there are no gigantic men hurling lightning in the mountain on the other side of town. They took their sheep there and collected berries and herbs and shit. They acted as if there are, because it was a useful way to keep the collective sharp.

>>2044000
I can find 2000 forum posts saying Obama's wife is a man. Too much evidence to ignore. Also a lot of evidence that he is secretly Osama bin Laden, and a lizard, and a wizard, and a wizardlizard.

>>2045375
>what is archeology
>what is geology
>what is ancient records

yes, too much evidence to ignore

>>2045380
>archeology and geology support the bible

"no"

>>2045381
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology.htm

indeed it does

>>2045381
>Archaeological evidence of the flood
>Archaeological evidence of the garden of eden at at the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates
>Archaeological evidence of the Exodus from egypt, splitting of the red sea, etc.

>No evidence

Pick one

>>2045384
>www.bible.ca

This is like linking to Stormfront to support your Holocaust claims.

>>2045387
Not an argument.

>>2045387
>argumentam ad /pol/um fallacy

Reddit has arrived

>>2045387
>can't refute the arguments and excavations made
>resort to ad hominems

you lost.

>>2045386
>floods exist
I agree.
>farms exist
I agree.
>jewish tribes existed
I agree.
>thus the bible
No.

>>2045388
>>2045389
>my bible.com blogpost proves the bible, BTFO!
No.

>>2045391
You haven't refuted or addressed any arguments made.

You're sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!".

You are unreasonable, irrational and in denial.

>>2045391
>Denying the bible despite abundant evidence

You're going straight to hell if you don't reform your ways

>>2045391
>my bible.com blogpost proves the bible, BTFO!
strawman

you asked for archeology evidence
i posted articles with archeology evidence

you resort to shitposting because you got proven wrong

>>2045396
You've made no arguments.
Floods having occurred doesn't prove that Noah got all the animals on a boat and sailed around until God drank enough sea water to make dry soil appear again.
People farming in the most fertile area of the then known world doesn't prove that there was haven on Earth and that people were created there from clay or whatever.

You are not arguing, you are pretending to argue, and get mad when people point it out.

>>2045401
>it's just a coincidence that the Chinese mention Nuu and 8 people surviving

>it's just a coincidence that universal legend goes that a boat survived the global flood

lol the only argument atheists have is: "It's just a coincidence!!"

or it really happened, but you dont want to admit that because that would mean the Bible is God's Word and that would hurt your feelings because you desperately wanted God not to exist.

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>>2045406
>>2045399
>>2045397
>>2045396
Just stop replying to him, he's a shitty troll.

Evolutiontards are brainwashed and nothing will change their mind.

>>2045409
true, but i have nothing better to do

>>2045406
1. Its not universal, the americans and south africans don't have it.
2. Its not a coincidence, someone made it up and it spread.

Or do you think that "It's just a coincidence!!" that the people who have such stories are all on the same trade network, and those outside it don't have those legends?

>>2045419
keep denying science, archeology and historical records.

facts prove the bible is true.

you can
A. stay in denial
B. accept reality

apparently you chose the first, talk about ignorance

>>2045424
You didn't address my argument. Do so.

>>2045384
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-index.htm

I can't find anything on this site about the biblical flood, can you help me?

>>2045434
google hydroplate theory

>>2045440
>Hydroplate theory is a creationist hypothesis that Earth once had huge chambers of water sandwiched between the earth's crust and its mantle.

But this is stupid, and we know it to be false from geology and simply digging holes very deep.

>>2045447
We know it by faith.

>>2045504
and archeological evidence

All supernatural things in the Bible should be taken metaphorically or symbolically.

t. True christian

>>2045513
There is no archeological evidence for a huge reservoir of water bellow the earth crust coming out and flooding the planet.

Besides, how can you have the garden of Eden in Iraq, and after that the world flooded by this crazy amount of water from under the crust? Wouldn't Iraq be underwater today? Its stupid.

>>2045504
You believe it by faith. You don't know it, since its not true.
Believe all you want, just don't mistake it for knowledge.

>>2045526
How can you be a Christian and a naturalist at the same time?

Christ performed many miracles and as a Christian we believe in his death, burial and resurrection.

You sound like a troll.

>>2045533
>what is the oceanic ridges

the earth shows clear signs of a catastrophic flood, it is covered in scars

>>2045538
Christ was an orator, he didn't perform anything other than making people feel better by being a good speaker and an overall nice guy.

He was a philosopher and christianity is his philosophy.

>>2045543
Heretic, opinion discarded.

>>2045543
if you believe that then you're not a christian.

>>2045541
>what is the oceanic ridges
Tectonics. Nothing to do with floods.

>>2045552
idiot confirmed

>>2045538
He healed by giving people faith in God and in Him. His miracles show that everything is possible through faith.

His resurrection isn't to be taken literal but to be a symbol of the beginning of the Church and thus the eternal life of Jesus Christ.

>>2045552
>he thinks continents float on water

What do you think happens when you take away all the water on earth? All the continents are connected and they cannot be "moved".

>muh pangea myth

>>2045559
t. heretic relativist post-modernist who hates the bible and tries to correct god's word

charles lawson shits on people like you

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>>2045558
Where's the arguments, anon? You said there'd be arguments.

>>2045560
>he thinks continents float on water
Did you misquote?

>>2045546
>>2045548
>s-stop triggering me!

lol

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Yes, duh. Everyone does.

Only Catholics don't, they hate the Bible and they hate the Gospel. It is Satan's counterfeit church.

>>2045562
I'm not a heretic. I interpret the Bible as it is meant to be interpreted according to the written tradition of its time. Like atheists seek only that which the eye can see, you seek only what the words tell you, not what they really mean.

>>2045104
>a global flood.
*sigh*

and where did all the water come from? And where did it all go?

let's face it. this isn't even about believing the bible or not. this is flat out denying science and any crumble of logic and intelligence that may still linger in your brain.

>>2045637
It was all frozen in Antarctica and is coming back with climate change.

>>2044000
This.

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>>2045637

>>2045658
not enough ice

>>2045700
i still see plenty of land. Some flood.

>>2045700
So was the Tigris and Euphrates area with their fertile valleys on top of high mountains before the flood? Cause they aren't underwater now.

>>2044712
>satan highest angel appears as a snake
>god "punishes" all hardly sentient snakes of his own creation

Proddyniggers not even once.

>>2045838
>proddyniggers
Why are catholics on /his/ so edgy?

>>2045840
But its true, were the roman church has a history of merging hellenist thought and philosophy with faith while the eastern one developed a profound mysticism that is completely cohesive, proddys ended as billions of splintered sects trying to desperately twist the world akin to what the bible literally said to the most autistic detail which led to hysteric cults like snakehandlers often based on what one singled out bibleverse might translate to in the most worldly sense.

Catholics had at least equally deep heresys as gnosticism, the proddys spawned mormons.

While the zeal of some of them is impressive its in its structure just as justified as some curious ethnic polytheists sticking to narration to justifie themselves while it pretends to be more.

>>2044000
were they all from civilizations that lived near a river that flooded every year?

>>2045894
>muh local flood! ancient ppl were stupid!
this typical atheist argument has already been debunked.

if it was a local flood then god didnt need to tell noah to build a boat, or saves animals. just move away.

>>2044693
>The Catholic Church says so
Source?

>>2045907
This one actually made me lol
Thank you

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>>2045907
>Christians are this retarded

>>2045907

You mean utnapushtim.

>>2045922
>...the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith. Some however rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question.

t. Pius XII in Humani Generis

He also later notes that Genesis is truth not a myth. The Catholic position is that the Genesis narrative and scientific theories do not conflict.

>>2045922
>>2046060
From http://www.catholic.com/tracts/creation-and-genesis

>Catholics are at liberty to believe that creation took a few days or a much longer period, according to how they see the evidence, and subject to any future judgment of the Church (Pius XII’s 1950 encyclical Humani Generis 36–37). They need not be hostile to modern cosmology. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "[M]any scientific studies . . . have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life forms, and the appearance of man. These studies invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator" (CCC 283). Still, science has its limits (CCC 284, 2293–4). The following quotations from the Fathers show how widely divergent early Christian views were.

>>2043982
Yes. Notice that "literally" doesn't mean what prottie YEC retards think it means.

WTF is this protestant fundie invasion? I thought /his/ was Catholic/Orthodox-LARP-central...

>>2046142
I'm sure most of them are just pretending to be retarded.

>>2045013
buy more indulgences goy

>>2043992
Like aquinas, st augustine, and bernard of clairveaux?

The Bible was never meant to be taken literally. You're supposed to pay attention to context in determining whether it's symbolically or metaphorically true.

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>>2047917
Doesn't have anything to do with your convo, but I'm not that guy you're replying to, so I'm free to post whatever irrelevant shit I want.
>At about the age of 19, Augustine began an affair with a young woman in Carthage. Though his mother wanted him to marry a person of his class, the woman remained his lover[40] for over fifteen years[41] and gave birth to his son Adeodatus,[42] who was viewed as extremely intelligent by his contemporaries. In 385, Augustine ended his relationship with his lover in order to prepare himself to marry a ten-year-old heiress. (He had to wait for two years because the legal age of marriage was twelve. By the time he was able to marry her, however, he instead decided to become a celibate priest.)[41][43]
What did he mean by this?

>>2043982
Before or after the lobotomy to remove all critical thinking ability?

Why are Europeans so opposed to YEC?

>>2046142
No, /his/ is a Christian board. Mitre tippers can go to /x/.

>>2046060
Who cares what papists say?

>>2048762
Protestants.

>>2048772
Nope

>>2048779
Well, every time Catholicism is brought up around here, there's one autist that replies to every post with "UUUH AKSHUALY Catholiks ARENt Christians" so I some do.

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>ITT: pic related

>>2048794
Catholics aren't Christian tho

>>2048934
You mean Origen the heretic?

>>2048939
I mean Origen the one not spouting nonsense that it's hard to take seriously. What does it even mean to interpret Genesis literally? How DID a "days" take place without sky or sun or stars?

>>2048924
sweet meme my friend

>accepting any of the old testament as truth

>>2048965

Evangelicals: not even once

>>2048948
Why would you even keep replying to these retards?

They are stuck so far up their own ass they will ignore a mountain of evidence if a pebble appears to support their position.

Even some of my more conservative friends find young earth creationism to be laughable, because its a more untenable position by the year.

>>2048950
It's true

>>2048972
Evolution is a false religion

>>2048972
>its a more untenable position by the year.

how?

>>2049002
this is just asinine, how the fuck is evolution anything like a religion? because it isnt anything like a religion.

>>2049005
archaeological evidence for evolution is only growing every year

>>2049018
>this is just asinine, how the fuck is evolution anything like a religion? because it isnt anything like a religion.
It is based purely on faith. It has no basis in reality.
>archaeological evidence for evolution
Continues to not exist

Well since it starts with two, mutually incompatible creation stories... I'm gunna say no.

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>>2049027

>>2049023
kek

KEK

>>2044416
Jesus I made this OC so fucking long ago, I can't believe it survived.

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>>2045384
>no citations
>author has no credentials whatsoever

>>2043982
Once you start to pick and choose the OT the NT tends to fall apart because swathes of the OT need to be true for Jesus' lineage.

>>2047957
Your point? He was a Manichaean too, he converted.

>>2048762
People who understand the Bible, i.e. Catholics

>>2047917
>st augustine
This guy?

>The narrative in Genesis is not written in a literary style proper to allegory, as in the Song of Songs, but from beginning to end in a style proper to history, as in the Books of Kings and the other works of that type

>>2048939
There is also Augustine the Doctor of the Church

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? [...] For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."

>>2043982

That's the first rule of interpretation; the bible is intended to be taken literally.

If a literal take produces an absurd result, like Jesus saying "I am bread" or "I am a door", then a non-literal take is warranted.

The bible will state in context when warranted what it means, and the bible will have 2 or 3 witnesses to everything it says.

When symbolic, the bible will explain the symbols.

When parabolic, if you are not a Christian, don't bother trying to understand the parable. You will always only understand the lower meaning, which is by design. The higher meaning requires the assistance of the Holy Spirit, and if you are not a Christian, you do not have him as a resource.

>>2048939

Aye, I'll take a born again Christian, no matter his faults, over a catholic heretic all day, every day.

>>2048948

Are you saying God cannot tell time without a sun and earth?

>>2048934
>>2051129
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/atheology/2016/09/the-history-of-early-biblical-interpretation-as-a-weapon-and-a-shield/

>>2048969
Yes, not even once will an evangelical go to hell.

We will be allowed to peek in on you folks, however.

Then we'll forget you.

>>2048972

And rational people find abiogenesis and spontaneous generation laughable.