Thoughts on Ernest Zündel and "Holocaust Denial Laws?"

>>2034500
>>>/pol/

>be Nazi
>be notorious for attention to detail and efficiency
>be fighting a complicated and complex war
>require country to run extremely efficiently to pull off victory
>waste resources building camps
>waste resources constructing massive industrial gas chambers
>waste resources constructing massive ovens
>waste resources supplying camps and officers to oversee them
>waste trains to transport Jews to camps
>waste trains to transport gas to camps

Uh huh.

It's not like Europe ever understood the whole "democracy" thing outside of Switzerland.

>>2034500
each country makes his own legislation
/thread

>>2034538
>attention to detail and efficiency
>Nazis
Pick one and only one

>>2034538
>be notorious for attention to detail and efficiency
American education everyone

>>2034586
>>2034594
German* efficiency

The same is true for Dr. Germar Rudolph, a Chemist at the Max PlanckInstitute who published a paper on traces of "Prussian Blue" (which are left on the walls after Zyklon-B has been used, and this can be seen clearly in delousing chambers).

But whether you accept these menn' arguments or write them off as quacks, do they really deserve prison time? If so, how do the "Charlie Hebdo" cartoonists not also deserve prison time?

It's a very frightening thing to see men being incarcerated for their historical findings/beliefs. And I know, the hip thing now is to be solidly pro-system. But I don't think most of you contemplate what sort of pandora's box you open when these laws are enforced. You turn the state prosecution effectively into an inquisition and turn a matter for historians into religious dogma now enforced through the power of the state.

And the entire argument on "the dangers of muh Right Wing violence" are just laughable now. Go to live leak, YT, etc.. and look for who is carrying out the violent attacks and burning cars, rioting, etc... in not only the US but places like France, Sweden, German. Tension is growing. And when the knot is finally cut and tension released, I have a feeling that the Merkels, Clintons, Junkers, Stolenbergs, et. al will suffer a fate equally gruesome to what they brought to Ghadaffi (a bayonet rammed up his backside...the sharp side).
It's all tied together. And when it comes apart, won't be pretty.

>>2034508
It has nothing to do with /pol/ Again, you probe no one here has a brain. It's a very simple question. Do men belong in jail of their opinions on historical events?

If you say yes, you are then conflating "history" with "religion" and saying it is the duty of the state police to enforce what is essentially religious dogma. And if that is the role of the police, Charlie Hebdo should have been jailed, as should any who insult Catholics, and so on.

There's not a person here, as I suspected, who can give a coherent argument other than last straw man arguments and ad hominems. And some of you should be very careful, because YOU are setting the precedent, remember that. a time may come--sooner than you think-- when opinions you hold (about historical events or anything else) are punishable by prison. And you'll have none to blame but yourselves.

Just out of curiosity-- do any of you have college degrees? Do you even realize the implications of this in Europe? As Right Wing populism continues to sweep along, you better hope you don't find yourself on, yo quote Obama, "the wrong side of history" (another gift of Obama's speech writers-- history now has a clear "right" and "wrong" side.

Some of you are truly plying with fire, and if you realized it, I think you'd be looking at things a lot differently. 5 years in jail for not agreeing with the State on an historical detail, such as how many of one religious group (a VERY powerful group) died in a war?

"as ye sow, so shall ye reap.."

>>2034538
How does deciding to wage a war on two fronts for no reason fit in with your concept of the Nazi's being master planners?

>>2034657
It was a necessity.

>>2034558
>each country makes his own legislation
It's not a nation. It's..I believe every nation in Europe save 2. These same European nations are signatories to the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights," yet have no problem imprisoning their own citizens for what are nothing more than historical opinions, and thus directly violate that convention.

Thus the reason they hated Dr. Ahmadinejad so much. See his interviews where "journalists" like Manapour question his nation's human rights record, and he throws it right back in her face what Europe does.

And no, anon, in the modern world, when nations take away basic human rights (such as freedom of conscience) they almost always face sanctions. But since this issue involves a very special group who controls the media (just ask Rick Sanchez "Jews have a lot of power in the media." No we don't. By the way, you're fired).

The stupidity here is outright amazing. And somehow consider yourselves to be brighter than any other board on here? Just as I predicted, other than a few ad hominem insults, no one would have even a semi-decent argument.

Which just shows how close the house of cards is to collapsing.

>>2034500
Seriously, how do you expect cogent arguments, whe all you do is presenting lies like (Red Cross documents suggest this was due mostly to typhus, starvation, etc..) or giving academical titles to people who don't have them?

>>2034743
>how do you expect cogent arguments
He doesn't expect cogent arguments. He poisons the well up front, and then when no one responds to this obvious b8, he will claim victory

Is "The Greatest Story Never Told" a pile of shit? I just finished part 3 on the Anschluss, and it makes it sound like it was a peaceful reunification.

But Germany intimidated and rigged the referendum to reunify, right? And they bullied the reigning president into resignation, right?

But why did Austria welcome them so universally? Is it because they wanted the Nazi economy? Did they really just excuse everything else? Or did Germany actually do nothing wrong?

SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT TO THINK

>>2034500
>Thoughts on Ernest Zündel
лишний чeлoвek

>"Holocaust Denial Laws?"
Not exactely kosher, as I support McVay's doctrine. But hey it's not like holocaust deniers are valuable members of society and putting them behind jails will do harm.

>>2034776
>But why did Austria welcome them so universally?
sauce?

>>2034500
I disagree with genocide denial laws (because the vast majority are not just about the Holocaust, but prohibit denying any recognized genocide), but they are hardly the only restriction on free speech in Western society like your post seems to imply. It's illegal to make false claims about living people (slander, defamation, libel), so why shouldn't it be illegal to do the same to the dead?

What makes you think most people on this board agree with those laws? I personally think they are absurd.

It's still stupidly ignorant to deny the holocaust though.

>>2034500
>Red Cross documents suggest this was due mostly to typhus, starvation, etc..


No they don't.

Here's a real red cross document.

http://i.imgur.com/xJCzhbc.jpg

>as the German infrastructure and access to food, medicine, and delousing equipment was destroyed.

Please show me a record of Allied air raids into Poland, where the bulk of the extermination was carried out.

Please explain how Auschwitz, a camp that can generously be described as capable of housing 130,000 or so people, got crammed with 1.5 million, and why the camp officials felt a need to build crematoria that could process almost 5,000 people a day if they weren't intent on mass murder?

>Can one intellectually honest person make an argument here for how this is in keeping with Western secular, humanist values without spewing profanities or trying to have this thread deleted?

Western Secular, humanist values don't actually include freedom of speech outside the Anglosphere. They consider it the perogative of governments to keep tabs on assembly, public discourse, and incitements to violence, and as such, the enormous anti-semetic bent of holocaust denial usually runs afoul of the above.

But of course, you'd know all this already if you weren't an intellectually dishonest /pol/tard.

>>2034500
Under no circumstances should any manner of speech be restricted in any way. Only pussies will say otherwise.

>>2034538
the nazis were not at all efficient. especially their governance. go and read speers autobio

>>2034500
Going to jail for Holocaust denial is fucking stupid whether or not you agree with the person. Shouldn't even be a debatable point.

>>2034547
>Bergjude detektiert.

Agree with everyone who has posted in this thread. I'd say it's dumb to go out and dney holocaust alltogether but it's equally as dumb having government force a legislation banning an historical opinion.

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I respect Ernest Zündel, nice guy.

https://youtu.be/A5sbegfCz7o

>>2035189
>http://i.imgur.com/xJCzhbc.jpg
>that pic where not even the bame of the depicted is spelled consistently

>>2034538
You don't actually know anything about Nazi Germany

>>2035201
it's actually a rense link, look it up.

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>>2034776
>But why did Austria welcome them so universally?
I dunno lad. Might have had something to do with this, or the armed goons outside the polling places gently informing people of their viewpoints and exercising their right to free speech.

how is being 'intellectually honest' or 'intellectually dishonest' any different from being honest or dishonest?

>>2035251
Because you're discussing something you know you have no idea what you're talking about or you're completely wrong, and yet keep going for the sake of the argument/to not be proven wrong.

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>>2034538

Actually, its a misconception on both sides of issue that the Nazi's gas 6 million jews.

They did not...

However 6 million Jews died.

Germans weren't stupid. They had millions in camps. Not just Jews. Gays, gypsies, socialists, communists, social democrats, and millions of Soviet pows.

That said, most of these prisoners were worked to death or died of stuff like Typhus.

I mean after all, millions of Soviet pows died. The Germans kept records of how many they captured and the Soviets were aware how many they got back after they liberated camps. It was several million who died. They didn't gas the Soviets, they simply worked them to death, didn't feed them, or let them die of tyhpus.

Same thing happened to the Jews. The Germans found the ones who could work and made them work as hard as they can and fed them as little as they could (because why waste food on them) and didn't really keep the camp health conditions that well. Well they deloused them because Germans hated lice, but that was about it.

Anyways... They would gas those too weak to work or those who could not labor. I mean that was a smart move. Why waste tons of food on those who could not work for the war effort.

That said... A great deal of Germans and other manpower was used to hunt Jews on the Eastern front and killed them where they found them (not gassed or burned).

There was so much an effort many German Generals complained about the manpower usage and some even ignored the orders. (There were many documentation cases of this and the Germans even took pictures of themselves doing this).

Anyways... What I am saying is that yes, 6 million Jews were gassed, but 6 million Jews died due to various reasons. Its well documented and it would be a shame to deny the Nazis what they felt to be their greatest achievement.

And to be honest Soviets killed more Ukrainians but only Tankies shout Holomodor was a hoax.

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>>2035298
do you have an allied commander meme or do you only have german and soviet commander memes

>>2034500
The Holocaust did not happen, and to claim that there is no conflict of interest in the narrative of the Holocaust and the hasbara the West is subject to, and the shift of the Overton window by mysterious shadows who, when named, vanish into "conspiracy", is intellectually dishonest.

I challenge anybody to prove me wrong. Prove to me that 6 million Jews were killed by gassing (or however many million, outside of shootings and other inefficient methods; bulk of execution was via gassings, as per the narrative) and that their bodies were cremated, and the ash disposed of. Prove to me that the six extermination camps were capable of doing this feat, and all those corpses were cremated, 2-3 hours per body (with modern technology). If you can prove this beyond reasonable doubt, I cede my stance immediately. The only proof I have seen is here-say and smoking guns, which is not legitimate evidence for what is the largest genocide in recent human history. Such massive claims require absolute evidence. Testimonies are almost always cited, but I can pull up testimonies of UFO spottings, this does not verify them, as those people wish to believe in things that did not occur within the confines of reality.
And all of these claims lie in the lovey-dovey world where whites can not defend against their own ethnic citizens/culture. One never asks what the Jews did to the Germans, or the Eastern Europeans, or to all other groups along the timeline of history, one only says that the burden of guilt is on all other nations for being anti-Semitic. Well, what have they all said of the Jew? What has been the consistent claims against them? Their usurious behaviours, their over-representation/manipulation of power, their conniving/calculating mindset? They are a wandering people, blending in with the citizens of their host nation and conducting their businesses surreptitiously. Tight nationalism for themselves, but not for the host nation. How convenient.

>>2035309

Actually I got a British one somewhere, but I have too many memes and haven't organized them in a while. I just know it exists.

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>>2035544

I guess you didn't read my posts.

Most people in camps died from overwork, starvation, and typhus.

I don't know where you are getting your claims that they gassed that many.

Even Holocaust Museum says they only exterminated 2.7 Jews in concentration camps specifically made for killing Jews.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005145

And it doesn't specifically say they were gassed but also says they "or shooting"

Most Jews on the Eastern front were shot as they didn't have portable gas chambers back then.

>>2035560
I did not read your post if you are OP, I agree with altering the narrative of the Holocaust, therefore I agree with you. I understand the nature of /his/, which is why I posted what I did.

Also, you need to read the following link: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/606/01/

>>2034500
First off the mere recognition of the people that were said to have killed millions in the holocaust is inciting hatred towards an identifiable group; their descendants. In the modern state of human rights there has never been something as illogical, wrong. corrupt and variable as the nazi genocide.

>>2035570
Welcome to the world of the Benei Brythe. The biblical Brythonic people. They get everything.

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>>2035569

I'm not OP, but I'm saying not even the Jewish authorities on the subject say that the entire Jewish 6 million were gased in camps.

Its just people who go to high school and aren't playing attention and here the teacher say "gassed" and "6 million" near it other and come to the mistaken belief that 6 million Jews were personally put into gas chambers.

6 million Jews died along with millions of Russians, but it wasn't because they crammed them all in gas chambers.

>>2035587
In my original post, I stated: 6 million Jews were killed by gassing (or however many million, outside of shootings and other inefficient methods; bulk of execution was via gassings, as per the narrative)
I addressed that other methods of execution, which are more believable, were implemented.
>Russians
Russians, what Russians? Are you being anti-Semitic? What about the Jews?

>>2034500
It begs to question if the Holocaust is true why would you imprison people that try to question it knowing its already true and they will look crazy anyway? Because the Holocaust is a lie the greatest lie in history made by jews since 2/3rds of the Old Testament.

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>>2035594

Did you not read the Holocaust Memorial figures?

The Jews themselves only say 2.7 million were specifically killed in specifically designated "death camps" and not all by gassing.

The rest were worked to death, died of typhus, or met other fates related to living in a slave labor camp.

Out of the 5 million Soviets captured about 3.3 to 3.5 million died in the prisoner camps (not to say Germans had similar casualty rates in Soviet Gulags).

And the Soviets new how many men they lost and how many they got back after the war.

So its not that farfetched that millions of other people died due to camp conditions under Nazi supervision.

>>2035599

Its simple.

Same reason you cannot wear a Nazi armband or do the Hitler salute in Germany.

Also if you haven't paid attention people listen to crazies and false news.

Get enough crazies together and you get the Nazi party back in Germany.

Not that would be a bad thing, but that is why its illegal.

>>2034500
>I've yet to see a cogent argument.

Let me point you towards a few books that will help you out with that. You won't read them since there is nothing anyone can show you or tell you that will change your mind.

https://www.amazon.com/Denying-Holocaust-Growing-Assault-Memory/dp/0452272742
This is the book in which David Irving took the publisher to court in Britain. It is important that it occurred in British courts since burden of proof is on the defendant. The defense had to prove that what Irving wrote was bogus, nonsense and they did just that.

The book about the Irving vs Penguin trial is covered here:
https://www.amazon.com/Lying-About-Hitler-Richard-Evans/dp/0465021530/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1480751504&sr=1-1&keywords=lying+for+hitler

The author describes the court case, and goes into Irving's """""historical""""" research and found that it was deliberate mistranslation, cherrypicking sources that lined up with his preconceived view, etc

>>2035601
That is not the point of contention, I also agree that mismanagement of resources was a large factor. The point of contention is deliberate intent and execution of the plan in the form of gassings and cremation, or, the Holocaust.

>>2035609
Bullshit the real reason is to prevent people from figuring out the jews lied about the Holocaust which would make Europeans double think of what Hitler said about them being the seeds of evil among humanity. The jews know this thats why they also cover up all historical evidence of their evil in the first place. Why is the only evidence of jew evil found in the Bible? Because thats the only ALLOWED thing that shows Jew evil, all child sacrifices and all other sick jew shit they did to europeans and even middle eastern people is covered up and sometimes completely erased from history.

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>>2035626
I know that this is next level shitposting, but I will take the bait....
Let me guess, you think the Black Death was caused by Jews poisoning wells as well?

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>>2035616

The gassing were done primarily at first to those specifically unable to work. The old, sick, and children.

Why would you feed people unable to contribute?

You could let them starve, but then you had to do something with them in the meantime.

So to speed things along, they would just shoot them, but then they realized they were wasting bullets and moral on their soldiers.

So then the resorted to gasing and other methods.

So the issue was they weren't feeding the prisoners anywhere (Jewish or Soviet camps) so lots of people were continuing to being too weak to work.

So they couldn't let these too weak to work camps lie in their barracks all day waiting to die because they would actually result in people shitting themselves because too weak to go to latrine and causing typhus to those who were able to work so the Germans when possible would try to send those too weak to work to the gas chambers and then to be burned.

The reason they burned them is because the Germans guards certainly did not want to get typhus either so they had other Jews cremate them and so on.

> Jewish Child Sacrifices

So you believe in witches and werewolves too?

Because that's what the people in the Medieval times believed in when they told stories about the Jews.

To be honest... Meeting a real witch with real powers seems kind of awesome. If I could meet a Jew who could make a Golem go on a murderous rampage that would be awesome too.

>>2035641
No, but jews did poison wells.

>>2035656
Jews have a ritual that involves the sacrifice of goyim children, the reasons behind this ritual is pure savagery. They also still do this ritual to this day but its covered up, most missing children yh now you know exactly what happened to them.

>>2035298
The German Double Verdict:

1. The Christian church in Germany ruled for a long time, even during the hitler epoch. You could not make technology that could hold or transfer information. Otherwise you'd see yourself facing crimes against humanity. Therefore all Germany had was mechanical engineering.
2. The loophole here is that you could not use technology that could be used to store or transfer information. The Germans had no records of shit. Anybody couldve tried to sue the state for its lack of accountability.
3. Germans got fed up and instead left to Russia and other countries due to the church and the vast neglect of necessary progress.
4. A good share of the pictures available are photoshopped and depict the gulag.
5. Hitler had to have put them in force labor camps. He had too many supporters of color and to hate based on skin color would warrant him a risk not only for him but those in his family and circle. His closest associates were said to be diplomats from all over latin america.
6. I heard a recording from a post nuremberg trial. The judge had asked questions to gather statements. As an indirect route to the situation, the questions were meant to father logical statements, since the story was changing back and forth. Brits and US took the blame once they answered that they were bombing the tracks to and from the camps that were mass producing necessities for the nazis. The brits said they did not bomb any concentration camp. The judge just asked if their intentions were a perpetual war. They stayed mute. This would not be feasible since gas runs out and becomes a expensive commodity to abuse. And if that is what they desired then these victims would have die gassed via continous exposure to exhaust. Since Germans would be building them over and over. Remember allies took over so they couldve fixed it to their advantage. one could conclude that they werent prisoners but unpaid laborers supporting the war effort.

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Well this escalated quickly.

Were were talking about the feasibility of millions of people dying under Nazi supervision and now we are talking about Jewish blood rituals purported by people who used to bleed themselves because of humors.

>>2035700

What the fuck you on? Germans invented the goddamn printing press.

How else was that dirty protty going to print his mistranslated Bibles?

>>2035648
>The gassing
Read my original post here: >>2035544
Address it in full instead of pivoting away from it.

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>>2035713

I'm not sure what you want?

I pointed out that the Germans did not intend to gas every single Jew since they were good slave labor.

Even the Jews themselves state they only killed 2.7 in specific death camps.

I mean millions of people were dying around this time. This is a fact. Body disposal wasn't really a problem

One could turn around and say "Where are the 6 to 7 million dead German bodies?"

Yes, 6 to 7 million Germans died in the war.

Lots of people died. 6 million Jews dying isn't unreasonable giving the circumstances.

And I think the issue as to why its illegal is because saying otherwise promotes the image the Nazis were innocent of war crimes.

Do you deny the rape of Nanjing?

In these days and age of fake news, dubious google results, one could forsee if Holocaust denial was legal in Germany it would eventually result in a political party that brings Nazism back to Germany because they lied their way about what really happened.

>>2035740
>I'm not sure what you want?
It isn't my job to improve your reading comprehension. I was more than clear. Point out which parts of my post are not clear and I will elaborate.
>did not intend to gas
This, as well as your last post, implies gassings occurred. Prove this in accordance to my original post. As I mentioned before, the point of contention is related to gassing/cremation.
>Do you deny the rape of Nanjing?
Non-sequitur, we are not discussing the events related to Japanese history, if you cannot stay on topic, why bother commenting?

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.ar/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html
http://4archive.org/board/his/thread/509405

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>>2035746

I don't know.

Is Jewish and Nazi testimony, Himmler's Writing, physical evidence of location, and existence of gas and its production not good enough for you?

On a side note, the Nazis experimented with carbon monoxide poisoning first which they documented on using on Poles.

Look. Even if there were no gas chambers as you say...

The Germans shot a great deal of Jews. They took pictures of themselves doing it and many German soldiers have testified they participated in such actions.

Does it really matter if they were gassed, shot, starved, died of typhus, or were worked to death?

The evidence is pretty much clear that large amounts of Jews died under Nazi supervision (as well as Soviet Pows).

I mean there were a great deal of Jews in Poland before the war and there magically not that many after? What happened?

Could it be... I don't know... Nazi supervision?

>>2035772
>Is Jewish and Nazi testimony
Read my original post.
>physical evidence of location
Does nothing to prove gassings occurred as described.
>existence of gas
Was the gas used to execute millions of Jews? Prove this.
>The Germans shot a great deal of Jews.
Yes. The point of contention is gassing/cremation.
>I mean there were a great deal of Jews in Poland before the war and there magically not that many after? What happened?
>Could it be... I don't know... Nazi supervision?
Smoking guns are not proof of the largest genocide in recent human history. Not even close to proof/an argument.

>>2035544
>beyond reasonable doubt
There is no "beyond reasonable doubt" to /pol/tards. In fact there is no reasonable doubt for anyone that has a preconceived idea that he doesn't want to change. Nazi testimonies become forced testimonies, victim and civilian testimonies are a conspiracy, forensic evidence is faked, documents are faked, etc.

>>2035784
Not him but:
>Does nothing to prove gassings occurred as described.
False. See the Cracow Forensic Institute.

>Was the gas used to execute millions of Jews? Prove this.
Why were the camps ordering gas-tight doors for "special treatment" of the jews and zyklon b for special treatment? What was the special treatment anon?

Also, how come train records show massive deportations to Auschwitz and nobody coming out? What happened there?

>>2034538
Nazi rule being efficient is a bad meme. The Holocaust was largely possible because Hitler gave his underlings vast, often overlapping powers.

Some historians argue that the Holocaust was the product of bloody competition between certain nazi groups in an attempt to garner favour from Hitler.

>>2034538

>le Germans are hyper efficient and effective maymay

How does them fucking about with one off super weapons and rockets that serve no purpose other than killing negligible numbers of allied civilians, all while the Soviets are smashing the Reichs back doors in.

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>>2035544
>2-3 hours per body (with modern technology)
You are assuming only one body at a time was put in the cremation oven. You are also assuming that 2-3 hours per body that a modern cremation service takes is the same amount it would take to burn a body in an Nazi cremation oven. Both assumptions would be wrong.

In modern cremation ovens almost without exception the bodys are placed in a coffin and set into the crematory. So having to burn through a wooden box would certainly add more time. Also the modern crematory takes extra time so as to recover the ashes in a respectful manner. A modern crematory could burn a body MUCH quicker.

Btw, upwards of 7-8 bodies could be burned at once in a death camp crematory.

If you have a buddy who reads German, you can read the telegram the Cremation oven manufacturer describe how many bodies a day his oven can burn. (It's a Lot!)

>>2035785
Ad-hominems are not arguments.
But I will entertain you. Prove that there are those who frequent the /pol/ board in this thread. It is a ridiculous question only because it is a ridiculous claim, both boards are on the same website, and there are posters who parcel time out equally.
>Nazi testimonies become forced testimonies
I have many testimonies proving the existence of UFO spottings. Many millions of people, actually, watch/spread around/share UFO sightings, many tens of thousands claim to have seen it, too.
>documents are faked
What documents are faked? Show me undeniable proof proving the gassings and cremation occurred as described within the time frame, beyond reasonable doubt.
>>2035801
The physical evidence of the location's mere existence does nothing to actually prove that such events actually transpired, that is projecting your own arbitrary narrative upon reality. You need proof for the largest genocide in recent human history.
>ordering gas-tight
The same logic as to why you conduct experiments involving dangerous chemicals in a well-ventilated/controlled environment.
>"special treatment"
Not an argument, extending your own arbitrary narrative and "gotchya" speculation does nothing to prove the existence of this alleged genocide.
>Also, how come train records show massive deportations to Auschwitz and nobody coming out? What happened there?
"They played with sunshines and rainbows" is an equally valid statement given the parameters of your sentence, as any judgement calls on the claim rely solely on personal narrative. One does not point at a splatter of blood and scream murder, you prove it before a judge. Thank goodness the courts are not in the hands of conspiracy theorists who fabricate such things.

>>2035813
>Btw, upwards of 7-8 bodies could be burned at once in a death camp crematory.
How many ovens were there? During what hours did they operate? How frequently did they require repair? How efficiently did they operate? There were many millions of bodies that were gassed to account for, even if all the ovens existed and burned 10 bodies, would it fit within the time frame?
>You are also assuming that 2-3 hours per body that a modern cremation service
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis
http://www.butlerfuneralhomes.com/_mgxroot/page_10745.php
http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html
You need to directly refute the claims instead of just saying that they are wrong. Prove why they are wrong.
>No. For sanitary reasons, ease of placement, respect and dignity, many crematories require that the deceased be cremated in a combustible, leak proof, rigid, covered container. This does not need to be a casket as such. Cremation Caskets and containers are available in a wide variety of materials ranging from a simple cardboard container to solid wood cremation caskets in a variety of species. These are designed with little or no metal and facilitate the cremation process while meeting the needs of survivors.
Modern ovens do not see cardboard or wood as big obstacles, it is dishonest to extend our tech to the Third Reich in order to bolster their capabilities.
If you claim: A modern crematory could burn a body MUCH quicker.
Then this infers that older ovens are less efficient. Can you be specific, with sources?

>>2035814

Why did the Nazi's dynamite these rooms at these locations when forced to leave because of the Soviet advance?

Why would they waste valuable time and explosives on a menial labor camp in these specific locations throughout the camp?

Were the afraid that the soviets would get some sort of benefit of having delousing rooms for their own troop?

Seems kind of odd don't you think?

>>2035814
>>2035826

Just admit it, no matter what anyone says or shows you, there isn't anyway you are changing your mind.

You've reached the point where you believe all eye-witnesses are liars, all nazi confessions were done under torture, all photographs faked, all diary entries forged, all documents manufactured, etc.

Let me ask you two questions. Why did not a single nazi use the defense in court that what they are accused of doing never occured?

>>2035814
>The physical evidence of the location's mere existence does nothing to actually prove that such events actually transpired
>physical evidence of gassing does not prove gassing
This is why "beyond doubt" means nothing.

>Not an argument, extending your own arbitrary narrative and "gotchya" speculation does nothing to prove the existence of this alleged genocide.
Cool. Could you tell us what was the special treatment then, anon? Remember, it involved gas tight doors and zyklon b. It certainly does not involve gassing people though!

>documentation show germans order gas tight doors for special treatment of jews
>documentation shows germans order pesticide of special treatment of the jews
>train records show million of jews deported and magically disappearing
>forensic evidence shows gassing took place
>hundreds of testimonies confirm gassing took place
Oh yeah, i'm really "pojecting my arbitrary narrative upon reality".

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>>2035829

Special treatment meant delousing of course!

It just so happened the delousing conditions were terminal.

>>2035827
>Why did the Nazi's dynamite these rooms at these locations when forced to leave because of the Soviet advance?
"Because they didn't want the Soviets to find their fanfictions" is an equally valid statement. If all you wish to do is extend your own narrative on historical events, then you are just a conspiracy theorist. Funny how you berate /pol/ users, you have more in common than you think.
>>2035828
>Just admit it, no matter what anyone says or shows you, there isn't anyway you are changing your mind.
This is not even remotely close to forming an actual case for the Holocaust, you are just saying that you cannot believe how intolerant and dumb I am. That is not an argument, that is not proof.
>You've reached the point where you believe all eye-witnesses are liars, all nazi confessions were done under torture, all photographs faked, all diary entries forged, all documents manufactured
I have many UFO sighting testimonies, why believe one but disbelieve in the other? Your own arbitrary narrative is not valid when discussing these affairs.
>Why did not a single nazi use the defense in court that what they are accused of doing never occured?
"Because it did not happen" is an equally valid statement to make, until you have proof which shows otherwise. Smoking guns and ad-homs are not proof.

>>2035826
I also forgot to mention that modern funeral homes also have cooldown and retrieval of the remains which would take sometime....but that isn't anything the nazis would worry about.

>>2035840
you misread or misunderstood what I wrote. Let me clarify.

Why is it not a single nazi under trial for war crimes in the holocaust used the defense that the prosecution is making things up and nothing described ever occurred?

Why is it they always went with the "I was simply following orders" defense?

>>2035840

So these rooms being specifically targeted for demolition not mean anything?

Sure the Germans were blowing up lots of shit strategically important like rail ways, factories, bridge, and various other random shit.

But why specifically blow up these room in the labor camps and not the rest of the camp?

Can you give me a valid reason?

>>2035826
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/furnace-capacity-analysis.html

>>2035829
>This is why "beyond doubt" means nothing.
As I said, glad that conspiracy theorists are not in charge of determining verdicts, you have admitted that you have no standards of proof when you claim "beyond doubt means nothing".
I did not state that "physical evidence of gassing does not prove gassing". The first sentence was "The physical evidence of the location's mere existence does nothing to actually prove that such events actually transpired". That was the claim, it is literally right there above your strawman. The physical evidence of the location is not equivalent to the physical evidence of gassing.
> Cool. Could you tell us what was the special treatment then, anon? Remember, it involved gas tight doors and zyklon b. It certainly does not involve gassing people though!
"Cool" is not a refutation of my claim. If you do not wish to engage properly, why should I? But I will, because it would be harder if you actually brought arguments to the table. You need proof to ascertain the special treatment. Unless you have it (i.e. sufficient evidence), I can equally state that they wanted to give the Jews foot massages.
>Oh yeah, i'm really "pojecting my arbitrary narrative upon reality".
At least you admit it.
The nature of dangerous chemicals would have it that they be out of harm's way.
See above for the special treatment claims.
You are pointing at a blood splatter and screaming murder. You need proof in order to reach a verdict.
The forensic evidence that shows gassings occur is what you should be posting. Post this and prove that millions of Jews were gassed as described (i.e. exact methodology) and then cremated.
I personally saw the UFO spotting myself.

"If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world w^ar, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."
Hitler, January 30 1939.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AFhwwgL-94

>>2035866
There is plenty of proof (it is the most widely documented crime in the history of the world), but as I mentioned before no amount of evidence could ever change your mind.

>>2035866
There is no "reasonable doubt" for you, and i didn't admit anything. Are you one of those autists that reads everything literally?

The fact is that whether you like it or not the holocaust is one of the best documented events in history. I don't have anything more to add since you didn't really refute anything, beyond adopting a solipsist stance that makes ANY historical truth inaccessible by default.

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And with that I'm out, nothing more can be accomplished here

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>>2035866

Well if you discount all the Nazi guard testimony that they were following orders and the few guards that confessed up front what they did the gassing, then I guess you can believe whatever you want.

I mean its one thing to claim you saw a UFO, its another to actually say you flew one personally.

As much as I appreaciate the fact that you're trying to start an intellectual discussion, I think this topic is too tainted not to attract a shitstorm of trolls and /pol/tards from coming in and ruining it.

>>2035851
>Why is it they always went with the "I was simply following orders" defense?
"Because they didn't want the judge to find out about the tickle chambers" is an equally valid statement to make, you are projecting your own arbitrary narrative on the situation in order to fabricate reality. "You didn't deny it, though!" is not an argument, you need to prove it.
>>2035860
>not mean anything?
Yes, until you can prove their intent/methodology with evidence. Otherwise, you are projecting your own beliefs onto history, which is not good if you wish to weigh things objectively.
>Can you give me a valid reason?
Of course I can't, but my point is neither can you unless you can prove it beyond reasonable doubt (i.e. remove my "they wanted to get rid of their porno" claims).
>>2035861
It takes longer than one hour to cremate a body, and stacking corpses actually takes longer for the cremation process to occur, by nature of reactions and surface area. In order to increase the rate of the reaction, increase the surface area so that there is more exposure. This is not a logically consistent claim made by this source. Those are some mighty powerful ovens that defy common sense. http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html
>>2035880
That is not an argument or proof for your claims.
>>2035889
>There is no "reasonable doubt" for you
If you can prove that the gassings occurred and that many people died, then I will cede my point, as I originally stated.
>autist
Ad-homs are not arguments.
Being conveniently outraged and leaving the conversation does nothing to prove your point, in fact, it diminishes it because you are not even capable to withstand scrutiny of your claims.
>>2035896
In your extension of my UFO analogy, shouldn't the person who is testifying claim to have been part of the alleged gassings themselves, in order for the analogy to be complete (as opposed to flying the UFO, if that is what you want to claim). Jews, themselves, gassed themselves?

>>2035913
sage goes into the options bar.

>>2035913
I'm not "outraged". I already proved gassing did happen to anyone that accepts documentation, forensic evidence and/or testimonies. Since it is by definition impossible to prove that anything happened to someone that adopts extreme solipsism, i don't have anything more to say. It would be equally impossible regarding any other historical event.

>>2035700
>of colour
Fuck off back to tumblr

>>2035933
>I already proved gassing did happen
No, you haven't. You mentioned testimony, strawmanned how you thought I said physical evidence, when it was actually physical location, and sourced logically inconsistent claims. On the topic of physical location, you are assuming that it is as concrete a definition (of the location's purpose) as it is with a pool (that it is always meant for swimming, just as certain Third Reich labour facilities were always used to kill, which is projecting your own arbitrary narrative).
>extreme solipsism
Not an argument, you need proof for your claims that establish your claims beyond reasonable doubt.
Like I said above: Being conveniently outraged and leaving the conversation does nothing to prove your point, in fact, it diminishes it because you are not even capable to withstand scrutiny of your claims.
>>2035933
Thank you for the recommendation and the digits.

>>2035933
Also,
>but you don't hold x to be true/untrue about y!
is not an argument for your specific claims. We are not discussing Japanese, Soviet, Chinese, etc. history, we are discussing a very specific topic. Before having even stated my thoughts on the matter, you make up my mind for me (based off of my alleged "distaste for truth" you put forth) and state that I do not believe in these such cases? The issue is that the burden of proof is met with some of them, but is not met with others, such as the Holocaust. The largest genocide in human history is going to need more proof that "I saw it happen, trust me!", or "but you never said you didn't do it!", or "well, what else do you think they were doing there?".

this is fucking hilarious

>>2035953
>You mentioned testimony
See >>2035751

>On the topic of physical location, you are assuming that it is as concrete a definition (of the location's purpose) as it is with a pool (that it is always meant for swimming, just as certain Third Reich labour facilities were always used to kill, which is projecting your own arbitrary narrative).
No, the study of the cyanide compounds of the cracow institute reached the conclusion that it was used for gassing.

>>2035957
>is not an argument for your specific claims
>"distaste for truth"
Don't start with the imaginary quotes. Nothing constitutes an argument towards my "specific claims", or any other claim, because such a thing is impossible under solipsism. Can you prove any historical event under your own criteria? As i said, i'm happy enough with proving my "specific claims" to people who accept evidence.

>>2035977
Those are sources just as Wikipedia is a source (i.e. a collection of sources). Useful in bulk, not useful in cases like these, where time is of the essence. I linked you one source (http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html) which challenges the cremation narrative.
>No, the study of the cyanide compounds of the cracow institute reached the conclusion that it was used for gassing.
Until they can prove that all those Jews were gassed and cremated, it does nothing to prove anything. This is not the same as other alleged genocides, by nature of gassing and cremation, it requires absolute evidence. There is a presence of toxic chemicals, therefore we arrive at the judgement that however many million Jews were gassed during this time frame, then cremated accordingly? This is no different than extending your narratives to pervert the truth. Until there is absolute proof, no absolute statements can be made about the topic.
>Don't start with the imaginary quotes.
Have you not been pointing the finger at me and calling me stupid the entire time? You do so here: "to people who accept evidence." You contradict yourself in the same post. Let me guess, those people are true intellectuals, like yourself, who accept the absolute and objective truth, like you. What a coincidence.
>Can you prove any historical event under your own criteria?
As I said above:
>but you don't hold x to be true/untrue about y!
is not an argument. We are not discussing Japanese, Soviet, Chinese, etc. history, we are discussing a very specific topic. Before having even stated my thoughts on the matter, you make up my mind for me (based off of my alleged "distaste for truth" you put forth) and state that I do not believe in these such cases? The issue is that the burden of proof is met with some of them, but is not met with others, such as the Holocaust. No need to pivot if you cannot substantiate your claims, just let me know and we can be done with it.

>>2035984
>http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.ar/2014/10/rebuttal-of-mattogno-on-auschwitz-part.html

>>2035953
>>2035977

I'm more apt to agree with this guy. Where's you proof that the gassing didn't happen at all?

Some /pol/ infographic that claims Prussian Blue stains were "only for delousing"?

The other poster even says that they used it to delouse people, but there is documentation of high-level Nazi officers speaking of people being killed via gas (SS-Oberscharführer Josef Klehr, SS-Rottenführer Oskar Gröning).

You have a right to your opinion, but until you actually prove the poster wrong with links/factual proof, your claims are entirely unsubstantiated.

>>2035987
>It should be emphasized that these sources contradict Mattogno’s central hypothesizes that the cremation rate of the Topf two-, three- and eight-muffle ovens were not exceeding one corpse per 60 min, or that multiple cremations were not possible or at least not beneficial in crematory ovens.
It is not possible to cremate a body in under an hour with technology that is 80 years old.
>Sonderkommando, testimony
Okay, I'll go get the UFO eye-witnesses, you don't seem to understand that they actually saw it. Why don't you believe them? Could it have something to do with the fact that you have faith that the Holocaust occurred, but not in UFOs? Again, arbitrary narratives.
I am seeing reports on cyanide concentrations, aerial shots, and other claims that do not directly prove that 6 million were gassed to death and cremated. You cannot cremate bodies with such efficiency, and until you can prove that they were gassed as described, you cannot make absolute statements, such as these. I am seeing a fair many amount of smoking guns, but using Occam's suggestion, until you have absolute, irrefutable evidence (not here-say or smoking guns) to prove the case, you don't get to make speculative analysis. That is why the jury must reach a unanimous conclusion and weigh the evidence to do away with any shred of doubt.
>>2035994
You cannot prove a negative assertion, that is not how the burden of proof works. I'd much rather talk to the guy who calls me a moron, at least he understands this concept.

>>2034687
Yes, after Hitler made it a necessity.

/his/ would be a much better place if half of you read some actual thorough documentation about the war. When you just hear about parts here and there from YT and such you make instant opinions from the information you hear. Reading these things through comprehensively allows you to see a lot more factors, the bigger picture if you like.

You can tell someone doesn't know what they're talking about when all of their arguments involve single-tiered connections, 'this was because of this and only this'. It's a mistake to think like that with most historical subjects and if you find yourself doing it a lot, then go to your library and get some goddamn reading material.

>>2035984
You know, these threads always come down to the motivation someone would have to so stridently and stubbornly deny the Holocaust's existence.

What is it?

Do you genuinely believe Jewish people to be evil? Do you believe in some historical ill will that is proprietary to all Jews? Did little David Goldbergowitz steal your lunch money as a kid?

>>2035840
>"Because they didn't want the Soviets to find their fanfictions" is an equally valid statement. If all you wish to do is extend your own narrative on historical events, then you are just a conspiracy theorist. Funny how you berate /pol/ users, you have more in common than you think.

So basically what you're saying is that, you are extending your narrative on history, and despite overwhelming evidence put forward by both the allies and the Nazi high command, and soldiers stationed at the camps, your narrative is correct?

>>2035826
Your also making the assumption that the Germans tried to cremate every body of the people they killed. Have you not seen pictures of the mass graves they uncovered outside the camps? Are all those pictures faked too? Computer photography editing didn't exist until well after these photos were made public.

>>2036006
not him, but at my school there weren't many jews, but the ones we did have were "oy vey never4get six gorillion" zionists who just about ruined world war 2 and made the class feel awkward as they got passionate about it. i dont deny it, but it is kinda annoying when it absorbs discussion and ruins shit

>>2035544
Sorry buddy, but everything you're challenging us to prove has been done extensively by much smarter people than you, and all the information you need to prove that is a quick google search away. It's okay though, you're just a little slower on the uptake than the rest of us.

>>2036004
What?
>You cannot prove a negative assertion, that is not how the burden of proof works.

Sure, that might be the case where there is little evidence to contradict your point. But there is OVERWHELMING proof saying otherwise. You using that argument is basically saying "My opinion is right because I believe it is right, and I don't have to prove it to you".

Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but trying to get people to believe it without solid proof is asinine.

>>2035594
We can all see what you stated in your original post, you're just wrong. You could verify how they managed to kill so many, and how many were gassed/shot etc, you literally just need to open another tab and press search. All of the answers will be RIGHT FUCKING THERE

>>2036004
>It is not possible to cremate a body in under an hour with technology that is 80 years old.
False. Particularly false if you don't bother cremating the bones and cremate multiple corpses at once. But i guess all the testimonies were just coincidentally hallucinating about lower cremation times.

>>2035614
What a surprise, the comment which points people to actual evidence gets ignored. It's almost like they're aware that if they genuinely look into it, their worldview would be shattered. Probably the ego trying to save itself

>>2036006
If you cannot prove your claims, just tell me. There is no need to play armchair psychology. From a financial point, reparations. Culturally, believing in a lie that perpetuates guilt.
>>2036007
>So basically what you're saying is that, you are extending your narrative on history, and despite overwhelming evidence put forward by both the allies and the Nazi high command, and soldiers stationed at the camps, your narrative is correct?
Yeah, kind of like what you just did! Going off of conjecture and narrative without absolute proof in order to make absolute claims. That was the purpose of my claim, to highlight to logical pitfalls of yours.
>Your also making the assumption that the Germans tried to cremate every body of the people they killed.
Congrats, you are now a Holocaust denier.
>Are all those pictures faked too?
And how can you tell that they were gassed to death? What was different about those dead than the one who were cremated?
Computers didn't exist during the reign of Stalin, but documents were still doctored in order to hide evidence/pervert the truth.
>>2036013
>much smarter people than you
By what metric, I thought IQ was bigoted because it showed a disparity between Africans and white Western nations? Also, not an argument. Stupid people saying that 2+2=4 is still truthful, regardless of how intelligent they are. Granted, they are less likely to be correct.
Telling your opponent to "just Google it, ugh you should already know this" is not an argument.
>Sure, that might be the case where there is little evidence to contradict your point.
No, you can not ask to prove a negative assertion, in any case. You must first prove your own case instead of asking others to prove it is not truthful, because that assumes that your claim is objective.
>"My opinion is right because I believe it is right, and I don't have to prove it to you".
That would be my opponents, actually. Weak arguments appealing to authority of testimony, except when they...

>>2035686
Yeah now we know. By the way, every conspiracy theory you've ever heard? 100% true. You don't even need proof mate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MYPzKNQUE0&t=1067s

>>2034500

I think /pol/ is one of the worst things to happen to this site, but laws like that are bullshit.

>>2036028
No buddy, really. The evidence you supposedly can't find is literally all around you. You're just subconsciously blind to it because realising you've been wrong this entire time would kill you.

If you're the one and only idiot screaming in a field that you're correct, and that everyone else should just look it up, then yeah that's a dumb thing to say. But if the majority of people, and ALL OF THE EVIDENCE, is against you, within reachable distance, and you're still screaming 'prove it to me!' then you're a lost cause and there's really no way to help you

>>2036028
So then the original poster you were arguing with agrees you and your arguing against a point that no one in here is even arguing for?

I don't think anyone in here made a direct claim that "All "6 million" Jews died in the Holocaust because of died due to gassing, and they cremated all 6 million bodies"

If you actually took the time to read and comprehend what other posters said, then they are agreeing with you. Lots of jews, gypies and other "undesireables" died, not all of them were gassed, not all of them were cremated and no one in this thread is claiming that.

If your argument is that the Holocaust never happened at all, then there has been pretty substantial proof posted in this thread to prove otherwise.

>>2036038
I think we all agree, anon.

>>2036028
I gotta stay away from these threads, you trolls rope me in too easily. I'm off, happy trolling friend

>>2036028
>http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24783544.html
There, a source, fucking read it you goddamn retard.

>>2036038
I don't know, the spirit of stopping ideas that advocate the murder of others seems like a pretty good thing generally, but we ought to have an exception for people doing research into the historical events that may be seen as advocacy.

>>2036041
He's a lone wolf! Because he dropped out of school at 15 and nobody wanted to be his friend

>>2036028
...disagree with the conclusion of the assertion. Lack of absolute evidence to corroborate their absolute claims, appeals to the authority of the status quo, smoking guns as "gotchya" moments without real evidence, "but you don't 'x' about 'y'?!" non-sequiturs, and so on.
>>2036035
http://ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n1p47_Evans.html
>>2036039
>You're just subconsciously blind to it because realising you've been wrong this entire time would kill you.
I'd much rather prefer to debate with people who can actually make arguments. I can easily say that the evidence for the Earth not being flat is "out there, just go search it up", but that means nothing unless I can source it directly and prove it beyond reasonable doubt, especially on such an obvious claim as the Earth's curvature.

>>2036041
Then how many Jews less than 6 million died due to gassings? I did cede that other shootings and whatnot occurred.
Again, you cannot prove a negative assertion, you are inferring that it occurred in the first place. That is not how it works.
>>2036048
Everybody who puts your beliefs up to scrutiny is a troll? As I stated above: Being conveniently outraged and leaving the conversation does nothing to prove your point, in fact, it diminishes it because you are not even capable to withstand scrutiny of your claims.

>>2036054
They are counterproductive anyway. They make conspiratards think they are some sort of martyrs.

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>it's a /his/ holocaust thread

so this topic has to be debated daily it seems

Why didn someone just post these to begin with?

http://imgur.com/a/725A7

http://4archive.org/board/his/thread/509405

>>2034508
>>>/reddit/

>>2036067
Ehh, i dunno, i think you're not going to ever convince conspiracy theorists they're wrong anyway, and even the term conspiracy theorist these days seems to mean "fuckin' nuts" more than it used to.

>>2036061
Can you explain your point then? All your argument against mine has been that there hasn't been enough proof to refute your point, but you if haven't made a clear point then there isn't much of an argument to make. Your just saying that the evidence is wrong because
you say it is.
Do you believe the holocaust did not happen? Do you believe that no gassing happened at all? Are you disputing the exact figure of people gassed?

As far as providing an exact figure for "a number less than 6 milliion that were gassed", it is essentially impossible like you said. Who knew that you can't do an autopsy or count the number of burned bodies in a pile of ash? It's almost like the Germans did that intentionally *GASP.

>>2036049
>http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24783544.html
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc397.htm
Ad-hominem attacks do not add substance to your argument. If you legitimately consider this as undeniable proof beyond reasonable doubt, then I suggest you never enter law school and pursue a legal career, as you have very low standards. Projecting your own arbitrary narrative in order to pervert the truth is not intellectually honest. A historically accurate board need not resort to such dishonesty.
There is no proof in this, other than "Yes, we did do these things. Trust me". I trust objective evidence over testimony. Sorry, I am not a conspiracy theorist.

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>>2036061
>using the ihr as a legitimate source of history

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Denial laws are wrong and foolish. The claims of the deniers are incredibly easy to counter by any real historian anyway. Locking them up makes them martyrs.
Perhaps a televised debate between a denier and historian who accepts the world consensus would put to an end this nonsense.

Even Sir Oswald Mosley believed in and heavily condemned the holocaust.

As for the deniers here, I'd advise leaving /pol/ and not to believe out of context images posted there.

>>2036035
Disliking jews (something which probably most people do) does not excuse treating them like subhumans and murdering them

>>2036061
>Everybody who puts your beliefs up to scrutiny is a troll? As I stated above: Being conveniently outraged and leaving the conversation does nothing to prove your point, in fact, it diminishes it because you are not even capable to withstand scrutiny of your claims.

I think he's tired of arguing with a brick wall who conveniently ignores facts when it suits his vile agenda

And before you call me a Jew I'm a bonifide yellow toothed Anglo

>>2036073
don't forget this one as well. It is new, it was compiled like 10 days ago

http://imgur.com/a/725A7

I must admit when you read the official versions of the holocaust history one can not go around the fact that it all seems a bit weird.
>maching that blow air into prisoner's asses
>the rollercoaster bullshit
>the ax-throwing guard
>...
many exaggerations imo, my best guess would be that the number (6 million) is way too high and that Jews either got shot or died from working/starvation.

>>2036082
You posted the same link anon.

>>2036084
>the "official versions" consist of three cherrypicked passages from /pol/tard infopics
>from this fact i reach an arbitrary conclusion that contradicts every academic source

>>2036078
>All your argument against mine has been that there hasn't been enough proof to refute your point
Then you have not been paying attention to my argument. I have not been the one making absolute claims, I have been refuting them. Read my original post: >>2035544
>Your just saying that the evidence is wrong because you say it is.
Quote me directly where I explicitly state that the evidence is wrong because of my own authority.
>Do you believe the holocaust did not happen?
There were no mass gassings of millions of Jews, and cremations thereafter.
>it is essentially impossible like you said.
If it is impossible, then how do you allow yourself to make judgement claims on the topic?
>>2036080
I have not once attacked the source over the claim. I can easily say all of your sources are just Jewish and leave, but that would make me a conspiracy theorist, and I don't believe in Santa or the Holocaust, so. Try making an argument and removing reasonable doubt.
>>2036081
>vile agenda
Not an argument. A brick wall, only because I refuse to acknowledge here-say and smoking guns as absolute proof for the largest genocide in recent human history.

>>2036078
To make an extension on this, you keep using the phrase "Holocaust Denier" incorrectly. Holocaust Denier implies that no Jews were killed at all, and all the camps, documentation, testimony, were/are fabricated. I do not deny that the Holocaust happened, because as posted in this thread, there is plenty of evidence proving otherwise.

However, official documentation at the time doesn't ever say ""All "6 million" Jews died in the Holocaust died due to gassing, and they cremated all 6 million bodies" it was as the OP and other posters arguing said, mostly due to typhus, overwork, and malnutrition.

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>>2036093
By here-say and smoking guns I assume you mean the work of every well regarded adacemic on the subject?
Of course! /pol/ is surely a better source than actual historians' and victims' accounts!
Thanks for redpilling me!

>>2036093
First line
>The Holocaust did not happen, and to claim that there is no conflict of interest in the narrative of the Holocaust and the hasbara the West is subject to, and the shift of the Overton window by mysterious shadows who, when named, vanish into "conspiracy", is intellectually dishonest.
>The Holocaust did not happen
>Hur durf i'm not making absolute claims

So what your telling me is you're being intellectually dishonest, and failing to see that people in the thread are agreeing with you.

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>>2036090
>ignoring all the bullshit we are left with 3 pages that confirm the holocaust
>therefore it must be real
>Hahahaha you idiot, all the Jewish academics agree with me so I must be right
Just read the official version mate and then come back to me and tell me again that it is 100% accurate and historical proof of the holocaust.

Also please explain to me how this door was able to keep the gas inside so that the nazis didn't gas themselves to death.

>>2036104
You do know that the real door is kept in a musem right?

>>2036054

Yeah, but saying that a murder didn't happen isn't the same as advocating for it. There's a difference between someone saying that the holocaust didn't happen and someone saying that the holocaust should've happened.

>>2036098
Holocaust revisionism is not mutually exclusive with the board of /pol/. This weak board argument has already been beaten into the ground ("Prove that there are those who frequent the /pol/ board in this thread. It is a ridiculous question only because it is a ridiculous claim, both boards are on the same website, and there are posters who parcel time out equally.").
UFO testimony is not accepted by most because they disagree with the fundamental assertion, but the guilt industry of the Holocaust is accepted because of reasons that certainly aren't logically inconsistent. Testimonial claims are not arguments. What actual historians? Can they prove that however many million Jews were gassed, and then cremated, beyond reasonable doubt with objective and absolute claims? That has been my point of refutation the entire time. You need absolute evidence to make absolute claims, the largest genocide in recent human history needs more than merely smoking guns as evidence.
>>2036102
Okay, I await the parameters that I have set forth in the post above to be met. If you find them unjust, alter them and explain why. You cannot prove a negative assertion.

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>>2036107
Then my guide at Auschwitz lied when I asked him if this was the original door

>>2036104
No, ignoring "all" the bullshit we are left with on of the most documented events in history.
>>2035751
>>2036073

>imaginary quotes
Nice argument.

>Jewish academics agree with me so I must be right
No, pretty much every academic agrees, /pol/tard.
>b-b-but every historian is part of muh jew conspiracy

>Also please explain to me how this door was able to keep the gas inside so that the nazis didn't gas themselves to death.
The original doors were replaced in Auschwitz, retard. The documents of nazis requesting gas-tight doors for Auschwitz is in the links above.

>>2036110
It would appear so

The irony of people pretending to be independent thinkers will believing everything they see on /pol/ is quite funny

>>2036109
We don't have to prove anything, you're the one making the claim contrary to the overwhelming academic belief. History isn't based on absolute evidence, it is based on overwhelming evidence.And the overwhelming evidence is that millions of Jews were killed by the Germans (unless you claim they simply disappeared?)

You would know this if you had any intellectual scruples.

>>2036109
> Prove to me that 6 million Jews were killed by gassing (or however many million, outside of shootings and other inefficient methods; bulk of execution was via gassings, as per the narrative) and that their bodies were cremated, and the ash disposed of.

As i've said for my previous 5 posts, no one in here is claiming that, so you've been continually arguing against a point that no-one is trying to make.

Obviously your real argument is that the Holocaust never happened, but again, there's quite the burden of proof against your claims.

>>2036117
To rephrase that, if by your definition, the Holocaust is strictly by those "Prove to me that 6 million Jews were killed by gassing (or however many million, outside of shootings and other inefficient methods; bulk of execution was via gassings, as per the narrative) and that their bodies were cremated, and the ash disposed" definition, then I suppose you are right, which I conceded

>>2035298 As this guy points out, your point is taken from garbled misinformation, but i'm
Not sure what you mean by it being the "traditional narrative", I was taught that it was not 6 million gassings/burned bodies but that millions of people from a variety of ethnic, social, and religious background suffered in a multitude of ways like everyone has been saying. I went to public school, in a wealthy community full of jews, and most that I've talked to also accept that same narrative BECAUSE THE FUCKING EVIDENCE PUT FORTH SUGGESTS THAT.

>>2036116
>overwhelming academic belief.
Appeal to authority. Unless you can cite them and prove why their claims are warranted in proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a few million Jews were gassed, then cremated, then I will cede my point. If this is not done, then there is not enough evidence to make absolute claims.
>History isn't based on absolute evidence, it is based on overwhelming evidence.
"Overwhelming" hints towards the status quo coming to an agreement. This is an appeal to the authority of the status quo, which is not an argument. How convenient that the definitions are manufactured in this way, there is both overwhelming evidence and absolute evidence that the Roman Empire existed, but it is not truth because overwhelming evidence states it as being the case, but because it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, because it is the most logical conclusion.
>You would know this if you had any intellectual scruples.
Not an argument.
>And the overwhelming evidence is that millions of Jews were killed by the Germans
Way to make your case, you are pointing at a puddle of blood and screaming murder. You need evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.
>>2036117
From Wikipedia,
>The Holocaust also known as the Shoah was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews.
The burden of proof does not lie on the person who claims that the Earth isn't flat, but the person who claims that it is. The person who is claiming that it IS flat cannot tell the other to prove that it isn't. This is not intellectually honest.

You /pol/tards never give up really

>>2034500
Here's my 2 cents as an Israeli
1. The holocaust happened, well because why would my grandparents and the grandparents of my friends lie to me?
2. Most of the people that deny the holocaust here are the same people that memme about Jews being subhuman and how they should be gassed. Very similar to Muslims that justify terrorism and at the same time claim they are not responsible for 9/11. Really makes you think.
3. Banning holocaust denial or any other type of opinion is stupid and contrary to the principle of free market of ideas where wrong and vile ideas can be easily disproved. It's an internal euro thing that has to do with the European tendency to impose enlightenment by totalitarian means. This goes back to the french revolution and perhaps even Christianity (turn the other cheek or I will burn you at the stake). Also has to do with the terrible price Europe paid just 70 years ago. Protip: holocaust denial is not banned in the US and wait for it, in Israel. Yes I'm talking about an absence of a legal ban, not the fact that most people will view this as socially unacceptable which is a legitimate consequence of having retarded opinions.

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>>2036127
>spams the not an argument meme
>claims not to be from /pol/
>uses the appeal to logical fallacy logical fallacy

>>2036141
Not an argument from Stephan Molyneux, the Jewish civic nationalist? I'm sure he would bode well with the people at /pol/. He has no connection to the board, outside of memes. The concept of non-arguments did not originate with him, what a ridiculous statement. You can make them without being linked to him, but pointing out the reference does not negate the claim, a direct refutation does. Fallacious material will exist, whether you like it or not.
Again, until you can provide absolute evidence that removes all doubt, then I will cede my point, as I stated originally.

>>2036146
Yes, he does 'bode well' with the people at /pol/ Source? I browsed that shithole for an entire year and used to believe the crap they posted

>>2036127
Weren't you just shitting all over Wikipedia earlier for being an amalgamation of sources?

>The Holocaust also known as the Shoah was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews.

Yes, but that proves nothing because, as you said, by your definition all 6 million jews were killed by gas, and all their bodies were burned. Your quote doesn't say anything about either, which means your actual argument and point is that no Jews died at all, which has been refuted, and you have even said that yourself.

>The burden of proof does not lie on the person who claims that the Earth isn't flat, but the person who claims that it is. The person who is claiming that it IS flat cannot tell the other to prove that it isn't. This is not intellectually honest.

The burden of proof does not lie in those who claim the Holocaust isn't a hoax, but on those who claim it is a hoax.This is not intellectually honest. See, I can arrange sentence structure to fit my point, so that it is a negative assertion just as you can :)

>The Jews themselves only say 2.7 million were specifically killed in specifically designated "death camps" and not all by gassing.

>The rest were worked to death, died of typhus, or met other fates related to living in a slave labor camp.

>>2036155
So you berate others for browsing /pol/ and negate their arguments on that standing, but you, yourself, used to browse the same board? It is the equivalent of white university students virtue-signalling about white privilege to get social brownie points from their peers. Hop off your high horse if you wish to be intellectually consistent with your claims.
I am still waiting on that absolute proof, btw. Not a single person has posted evidence that is not here-say or smoking guns. The jury is not expected to look at a puddle of blood and believe it was murder, in fear of being labelled anti-Semitic.

>>2036127
Not him but:
>Appeal to authority
>An argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ad verecundiam), also called an appeal to authority, is a common type of argument which can be fallacious, such as when an authority is cited on a topic outside their area of expertise or when the authority cited is not a true expert.[1]
The conclusions of an expert on X in a discussion about X is not an appeal to authority fallacy, even if the truth value of X can't be logically deduced from his opinion alone.

>>2036164
The fact that I realise how ridiculous the board's claims are as I used to browsse it means that I am entitled to say how shit the board and its beliefs are

>>2034500
Liberty is not absolute. That's pretty much accepted, your freedom of speech ends before and shout "bomb" at an airport.

Given that precedent I think it is reasonable to saw that we default towards liberty except when a compelling security (or moral in some cases) case can be laid out. I would put forward that the Holocaust was so monstrous, the importance of knowing of it so strong and denying it (in perpetrator countries) so alluring. That there was a compelling case for legislative censure, as the social damage and resultant security risk is too great.

This is why these laws mainly exist in countries that carried out, or were victimised by the holocaust. While we tend not to see them in other countries, say the UK or USA.

I don't agree with this position, but it's coherent.

>>2035189
Ernst* correction

>>2036159
>Weren't you just shitting all over Wikipedia earlier for being an amalgamation of sources?
Good point, I cede that claim and rephrase myself: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-2.html
I did cede that shooting and other methods were also used, not exclusively gassings.
>Your quote doesn't say anything about either, which means your actual argument and point is that no Jews died at all, which has been refuted, and you have even said that yourself.
What is this mental gymnastics? Quote me directly to prove this claim, please. Refer to the new source.
>The burden of proof does not lie in those who claim the Holocaust isn't a hoax, but on those who claim it is a hoax.
You just changed the topic from proving the Holocaust to proving the Holohoax. The claim does not change, you are still asking for the opponent to prove that it didn't happen, which assumes it did. All I am asking of you is to prove that it did happen, and if you cannot do that, then you cannot claim that it did happen as described. http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm
It is not merely to fit my point, but to construct an argument against those that assert without absolute evidence.

>>2036166
How can they be experts if they cannot prove their claims with absolute evidence, and rely on here-say, smoking guns, and all the other fallacious claims used by against me? I have asked it many times before: post absolute evidence on your claims in order to remove all doubt. Show me direct photographic evidence outlining the exact methodology, show me video archives of the gassing methodology. Instead of showing me dead bodies (and only dead bodies), or pointing at splatters of blood and assuming the jury should claim murder.
>>2036170
Your post does nothing to remove the analogy to white students virtue-signalling. It is the pot calling the kettle black. Hop off your high horse.

>>2036177
Mark Potok of the SPLC claims that "Hate speech is in the ear of the beholder."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/

>>2036187
How can they be experts if they cannot prove their claims with absolute evidence (...)
Nice goalpost moving.
But they can and have, as shown all over this thread. Asking specifically for photographic/video evidence is retarded and arbitrary, not to mention that it would invalidate almost the entire field of history.

>>2036187
>Prove to me that 6 million Jews were killed by gassing (or however many million, outside of shootings and other inefficient methods; bulk of execution was via gassings, as per the narrative) and that their bodies were cremated, and the ash disposed of. Prove to me that the six extermination camps were capable of doing this feat, and all those corpses were cremated, 2-3 hours per body (with modern technology).

>(bulk of execution was via gassings, as per the narrative)

>The claim does not change, you are still asking for the opponent to prove that it didn't happen, which assumes it did.

Again, you are still ignoring the fact that you straight up stated that "The Holocaust never happened", which means that my point still stands.

>>2036201
I don't think hate speech, when it results only in offence or contributes slightly in the aggregate to some violence really justifies a legislative response.

You need more than that. You need Crimes Against Humanity level stuff.

A comparable example is Rwanda, where the current President tramples on media freedom totally. If that happened elsewhere I would be decrying it, but given the particular recent history of Rwanda (the whole radio encouraged genocide) I am okay with it.

It's a mistake to view these laws outside of their national, cultural and historic context.

>Seriously debating with knuckle-dragging Holocaust deniers ITT
Don't you all have better ways to spend your time?

>>2036110
Post pics from your OWN trip to Auschwitz, then.

>>2036224
>he doesn't refute /pol/tards while he studies
What a pleb!

>>2036224
Nicotine, lack of weed and boredom.
Intellectual conversation always calms my anxiety, and I don't go to work for another 12 hours.

>>2034538
As an anglo living in Germany for the past 7 years now...
>le efficient and detail-autistic Germans maymay
Just isn't true. Germans are trained to be super-specialist in their one job. This will often result, to some extent, to an attention to detail ONE THEIR ONE THING ALONE.

But these same Germans are rather like horses with blinders on, in my experience. This is a broad generalization, so forgive me, but... they really suck at 'peripheral vision'-thinking, considering the bigger picture and so on.

The Nazi power structure was also infamously corrupt and muddled by cronyism.

Given that elimination of Jews (and clearing land for German settlers) was always a Nazi Party policy, it is not surprising at all that this was a domestic make-work policy while the war was going on. Most (but not all) of the killing camps were located in eastern territory, because that's where the Jews were. Germans planned it, but they had plenty of enthusiastic help from local Slavs, although that part of history is conveniently left out by the sweet innocent Jew-loving Slavs.

Camp builders and guards were the third-tier workers/troops left, i.e. those not at physical peak, those slightly over-aged, those who had been injured in battle and so on.

>>2036208
>Nice goalpost moving.
Define your terms and explain how I fit the definition.
>Asking specifically for photographic/video evidence is retarded and arbitrary, not to mention that it would invalidate almost the entire field of history.
What a weak argument, we are talking about the twentieth century, not all of human history. The existence of various empires can be directly tested using human migration models corroborated by objective claims, ethnic/linguistic migration patterns, etc. But if we have access to a higher standard of evidence, we ought to use it to craft the best argument. "But where did they go=mass gassings, cremation", "but they didn't deny it=mass gassings, cremation", etc. is not valid proof for your claim. You are screaming murder at a puddle of blood.
>But they can and have, as shown all over this thread.
Source it.
>>2036214
>Again, you are still ignoring the fact that you straight up stated that "The Holocaust never happened", which means that my point still stands.
I have defined the Holocaust and stated that I do not agree with it. Within the Holocaust, or Shoah, is not the shootings or other forms of execution, but the gassings and creation. I have never explicitly stated that Jews did not die, but that they did not die according to the gassing/cremation narrative of the Holocaust.
>>2036216
I reiterate: Mark Potok of the SPLC claims that "Hate speech is in the ear of the beholder."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/05/when-christians-become-a-hated-minority/
You don't understand what that means. Are you familiar with Potok and the SPLC? Their sisters at the ADL are the "hate symbol" people. There is no such thing as hate speech, it is within the ear of the beholder.

>>2036187
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-2.html

Lol that 1990's wordpress website.

>What Holocaust revisionists are explicitly denying are three points found in most definitions of the Holocaust:

>There was an intentionality of genocide based primarily on race.

Being Jewish isn't a race, so unless you consider all people from different ethnicity and race that are also Jewish, as being part of a Jewish race, then that point is moot. The Germans did however, round up Romani peoples, who are an ethnicity/race which also disproves your point; https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005219

>A highly technical, well organized extermination program using gas chambers and crematoria was implemented.

So all the bodies, crematoria, dormatories ect that are quite clearly photographed, and still exist physically were faked as a means of furthering the "Jewish Agenda"?

>An estimated five to six million Jews were killed.

That's the only one that stands to be debated, because official body counts are hard to come by when quite a few of them, as you proved by your technical analysis posted of the ovens, people are turned to piles of ash.

>>2035601
The problem with that argument is the same.

One, there weren't 6 million "jews" in Europe at the time. At all.

And you can't cremate 6 million people at a rate of 2-3 hours per person, it's impossible.

The reason it's even more impossible, is because these bodies have not been dug up.

>>2036264
>I have defined the Holocaust and stated that I do not agree with it. Within the Holocaust, or Shoah, is not the shootings or other forms of execution, but the gassings and creation. I have never explicitly stated that Jews did not die, but that they did not die according to the gassing/cremation narrative of the Holocaust.

>Within the Holocaust, or Shoah, is not the shootings or other forms of execution, but the gassings and creation

Wait so, all the killings of Jews that didn't occur in camps aren't considered under the Holocaust because they weren't under your misinterpreted point of "all 6 million died getting gassed and cremated" ?

The wikipedia article even goes on to explain the range and history of the actions considered under the "Holocaust" by non-revisionist history includes all those shootings and deaths otherwise, as well as the other documents and sources posted in this thread.

>>2036269
Funny, first I was berated for using the IHR as a source (right here: >>2036080) because it questions the narrative of the Holocaust, now I am being berated at sourcing nizkor, a pro-narrative source. Make up your minds.
>Being Jewish isn't a race
Then there should not be predispositions to certain genetic diseases Ashkenazi Jews are bound by (http://www.jewishgeneticdiseases.org/jewish-genetic-diseases/), or verifiable IQ patterns amongst them (for if they are not a racially unique group, how can you categorize them as such: http://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf).
They overtly named the Jewish race, that much is evident. The genocide part requires absolute evidence.

>bodies
Which bodies? The ones that died of typhus? How many were gassed, exactly? Can you prove that they were gassed, and that they were cremated?
>crematoria
Can you prove that they operated under the exact methodology set forth and met the standards necessary in order to meet the few million figure?
Consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis [Embed]
http://www.butlerfuneralhomes.com/_mgxroot/page_10745.php
http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html
>dormatories
What? Not sure about this one.
>clearly photographed
Source it.
>and still exist physically
Source it.
>That's the only one that stands to be debated, because official body counts are hard to come by when quite a few of them, as you proved by your technical analysis posted of the ovens, people are turned to piles of ash.
You contradict yourself, if you claim that it is difficult to ascertain accurate figures from ash, then how can you arrive at a number?

>>2036284
>One, there weren't 6 million "jews" in Europe at the time. At all.
False, both according to jewish sources, non-jewish sources, and nazi sources (the Wannsee Protocol document).

>And you can't cremate 6 million people at a rate of 2-3 hours per person, it's impossible.
Also false, already discussed in this thread.

>>2036288
>Wait so, all the killings of Jews that didn't occur in camps aren't considered under the Holocaust because they weren't under your misinterpreted point of "all 6 million died getting gassed and cremated" ?
The "Holocaust" directly references the narrative behind the Jews and gassing, as that is the main point of contention. Others were allegedly involved, but are put on the back burner when the Jews are involved. If you don't believe me, go back and read my post. I state that the Holocaust did not happen, then go on to state it in terms of the gassings and cremation, so I was/am arguing in that context.
I thought you berated wikipedia, I agreed to not use it as a source, so why can you further discuss it?
>>2036299
http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/13.html
>Also false, already discussed in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHBaCZ3slis [Embed]
http://www.butlerfuneralhomes.com/_mgxroot/page_10745.php
http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html

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>>2036299
you can't disprove one without proving the other.

you would have ash piles so high the entire compound would have been burried.

>>2036304
Nice video/links. Now show me one where they don't fully cremate the bones and use several corpses at once.

>>2036311
>literally no source on the image
Seems reliable to me!

>>2036311
http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/worldalmanac.html

>>2036311
look at that number dude... 9,000,000 in total, in the whole of Europe.

The likelihood that 6,000,000 were killed in Germany alone is so far beyond belief, that it is a disrespect to even the most crippled intellectual.

From the evidence I've gathered, the "holocaust" was a fabrication of the Russian propaganda minister, Ilya Ehrenberg.

>>2034500
This thread is blatant /pol/ shit, fuck off.

>>2036311
Let's claim that 5 million Jews were gassed, average weight being 150 pounds. According to: http://www.cremationresource.org/cremation/how-is-a-body-cremated.html/
"On an average, it takes about one to three hours to cremate a human body, thereby reducing it to 3-7 pounds of cremains. The cremation remains are usually pasty white in color."
So that means you're dealing with 15 million to 35 million pounds of ash.
>>2036316
>Now show me one where they don't fully cremate the bones and use several corpses at once.
This assumes that the cremation left bones and other residue after the process. Why wouldn't they fully cremate the body if their goal was to be as spatially efficient as possible? The bones would weight more. It is only logical to claim that the cremation process was carried out in full, why would they half-ass it and not finish the job?
>use several corpses at once.
That would actually be less efficient, by nature of surface area. I discuss that here: It takes longer than one hour to cremate a body, and stacking corpses actually takes longer for the cremation process to occur, by nature of reactions and surface area. In order to increase the rate of the reaction, increase the surface area so that there is more exposure.

>>2036290
You contradict yourself, if you claim that it is difficult to ascertain accurate figures from ash, then how can you arrive at a number?

I literally said in my post and have said multiple times, that it stands to be debated, and is hard to come up with an official number, therefore the 5-6 million number is not exact and should not be taken at face value

>Ashkenazi Jews

Are a specific genetic race of people who also
happen to follow judaesm as a tradition of their people, yes that much is true. But calling a black converted jewish Frenchman, and a white polish jew with family tradition "from the same race" doesn't make sense. Judaism is a religion, not a race. Nazi's would kill both people equally as quickly.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/gallery.php?ModuleId=10005131&MediaType=ph

>which bodies? The ones that died of typhus? How many were gassed, exactly? Can you prove that they were gassed, and that they were cremated?

You are still coming at this with the assumption that the only opinions that non-revisionists hold are that gassing and cremation were the only things covered under the term Holocaust.
By your very narrow and specific definition, then no "The holocaust did not happen". But to say that the rounding up and killing of people because of their religion, race, or sexual orientation, in an organized fashion is not genocide, and is not considered by the majority of historical evidence put forth to be a part of the Holocaust is ignoring facts to suit your definition.

>Photos taken at liberation of concentration camps.
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/gallery.php?ModuleId=10005131&MediaType=ph

>>2036321
>9,000,000 in total
>6,000,000 were killed in Germany alone
>From the evidence I've gathered, the "holocaust" was a fabrication of the Russian propaganda minister, Ilya Ehrenberg.
This has to be a troll post.

>>2036335
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_list.php?MediaType=ph

>>2036335
Holocaust: Derived from the Greek holokauston which meant a sacrifice totally burned by fire. Today, the term refers to the systematic planned extermination of about six million European Jews and millions of others by the Nazis between 1933-1945.

https://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/resource/glossary.htm

>>2036339
Not trolling.

You don't stick a whole continents population, minus 3,000,000 in a couple of camps.

To even think of the logistical side of things, is a nightmare.

>>2036316
Also, we can also operate off of the definition of cremation, which is "dispose of (a dead person's body) by burning it to ashes, typically after a funeral ceremony". Nowhere does it state that the cremation process is completed until only the bones are left, the existence of bones is not confirmed when only ash is left.
>>2036335
>I literally said in my post and have said multiple times, that it stands to be debated, and is hard to come up with an official number, therefore the 5-6 million number is not exact and should not be taken at face value
Where do you draw the line?
As are Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews. They are racially distinct groups of people. Are you going to claim that race does not exist? Judaism is the religion, Jews themselves belong to racial group.
>But calling a black converted jewish Frenchman
You just revealed yourself as being without knowledge of this topic. There is no such thing as a Jewish convert, it is a bloodline of people, and only the maternal lineage is perceived as being Jewish, or chosen. Judaism=/=Jews. All Jews follow Judaism, but the religion itself is not for anybody to believe. Non-Jews are not allowed to practice the religion, they are shabbas goys, they will always be gentiles.
>You are still coming at this with the assumption that the only opinions that non-revisionists hold are that gassing and cremation were the only things covered under the term Holocaust.
How did the majority of the Jews die during the Holocaust, was it not by gassings?
>But to say that the rounding up and killing of people because of their religion, race, or sexual orientation, in an organized fashion is not genocide, and is not considered by the majority of historical evidence put forth to be a part of the Holocaust is ignoring facts to suit your definition.
If the majority of the killings were done by gassing, then this gassing must first be proven beyond reasonable doubt with absolute evidence, no here-say or smoking guns as claims.

>>2036352
Jews were not killed "in germany alone". And the logistics aspect is perhaps the best documented one.
I don't know if you're a /pol/tard or not, but i find it funny when i see this kind of non-arguments about logistics and feasibility from people that at the same time think millions of jews are organized in some kind of conspiracy.

>>2036335
>https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/gallery.php?ModuleId=10005131&MediaType=ph
From the images, it cannot be stated that the dead have been gassed (oddly enough, the magical ovens that ignore surface area restrictions did not cremate these dead, even though there is more of an incentive to cremate rotting, diseased corpses) as per the narrative without absolute proof of the methodology. You can claim another method of execution, too. I can state that they were all given lethal injections with the same certainty. Most likely, these are the dead as a result of starvation/over-exhaustion or succumbing to disease (working in poor conditions, as why would a nation prioritize resources on the POW as opposed to their own soldiers/citizens?).
Again, nothing more than "gotchya" smoking guns, no real absolute evidence.

>>2036363
sure there were trains etc

fine, i get that.

but now factor in this, Hitler triggered kikes to flee Germany, thousands of them, to flee Europe even. Of which, many arrived in the US.

Now many of them are left? Couple million? Completely suspending my imagination here and ignoring red cross numbers now...

After all those kikes flee, the ones remaining get thrown in camps, they get their heads shaved so they don't attract the bugs transmitting typhus, some die because it was too late anyway.

Many pictures of them found looking fat and healthy, the cruddy photos were taken after the allies bomb the food supplies.

They had a swimming pool, a theater, a cantina, coupons, and even certificates that allowed them to leave the camp... yeah... whole lotta death going on there...terrified..

>>2036321

>he thinks it was only German Jews who were killed

All posts instantly discarded due to severe mental incapacity.

>>2036377
they even had soccer teams..

>>2036383
That is the official guilt-driven narrative. As I originally stated: and to claim that there is no conflict of interest in the narrative of the Holocaust and the hasbara the West is subject to, and the shift of the Overton window by mysterious shadows who, when named, vanish into "conspiracy", is intellectually dishonest.

>You just revealed yourself as being without knowledge of this topic. There is no such thing as a Jewish convert, it is a bloodline of people, and only the maternal lineage is perceived as being Jewish, or chosen. Judaism=/=Jews. All Jews follow Judaism, but the religion itself is not for anybody to believe. Non-Jews are not allowed to practice the religion, they are shabbas goys, they will always be gentiles.

Source?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/1.619498

I personally know people who have converted to Judaism without matrilineal lineage, and are allowed to go to temple, follow a Jewish life style ect.

>How did the majority of the Jews die during the Holocaust, was it not by gassings?

As has been stated, and continually ignored, no, and it is only by your strict definition that you believe the Holocaust to exist. Not even sure why i'm responding to this part anymore, you seem to have very selective memory.

>>2036390
Scuse' me not exist, brain has ceased to work properly at 5:30am

>>2036377
The first half of your post is purely speculation, feel free to post sources. The second half is literally stormfag propaganda, please provide any serious historian that believes any of that.

At least the Sage guy is trying.

>>2036377

What "many" pictures showing healthy and fat concentration camp inmates?

How do you account for camps holding only Allied military personnel prisoners not suffering anywhere near the same levels of starvation, disease and mortality compared to camps housing civilians and Soviet military personnel?

>>2036390
>>2036397
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
It is possible to convert, but they will always be gentiles (if, say, a black man becomes a Jew).
>I personally know people
I was about to cite Wikipedia, but didn't because that's not a real source, but if you want to use anecdotes, I just might.
>As has been stated, and continually ignored, no, and it is only by your strict definition that you believe the Holocaust to exist. Not even sure why i'm responding to this part anymore, you seem to have very selective memory.
Then, by definition of Holocaust denial (your same source: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008003), you are a denier.

>>2036389

What narrative are you reading that claims that the holocaust only happened to German citizens and the rest of occupied Europe was left alone?

>>2036385

And most prisons have parking lots. Do you think it's the prisoners who are driving around?

>>2036404
https://youtu.be/UxFEtbawPCk


your source

>>2036412
>>2036405

>>2036406
>Holocaust denial and distortion are generally motivated by hatred of Jews, and build on an accusation that the Holocaust was invented or exaggerated by Jews as part of a plot to advance Jewish interests. This view perpetuates long-standing antisemitic stereotypes by accusing Jews of conspiracy and world domination, hateful charges that were instrumental in laying the groundwork for the Holocaust.

>this view perpetuates long-standing antisemitic stereotypes by accusing Jews of conspiracy and world domination, hateful charges that were instrumental in laying the groundwork for the Holocaust.

Yes, and the museum about Jewish deaths, funded by Jewish people isn't going to have a bias towards Jews.

I'm merely trying to make a point that both sides, revisionist and jewish leaning pro-history have flaws in their definition of the holocaust, and to take either at face value without considering the entire picture is intellectually dishonest.

>>2036413
Sorry, you must think you are in /pol/. A youtube propaganda video is not an argument. Reply again when you have a counterargument or serious sources that support your point.

>>2036405
How many pictures or overt evidence do you have of the exact methodology of the gassings taking place? Before/after shots, video files documenting it, other kinds of objective evidence.
Germany was at war with the US, Brits, Soviets, etc., they were going to have to ration out their resources accordingly, and POWs are not high on the totem pole.
>>2036410
The mainstream narrative, as defined by the media, many Jews, the historians you cite, and everybody in between. Not sure if you are the guy, but he ceded that "As has been stated, and continually ignored, no, and it is only by your strict definition that you believe the Holocaust to exist." (my strict definition is asking for absolute evidence of the largest genocide in recent human history). That makes him (and I) deniers.
>holocaust only happened to German citizens
You mean Jews? What do you mean.
>>2036404
>>2036413
Let's see if you analyze the claims, or refute it because of its source material. I did not dismiss a single citation (outside of Wikipedia, and only to myself because it isn't technically a "source").
>>2036416
>Yes, and the museum about Jewish deaths, funded by Jewish people isn't going to have a bias towards Jews.
Of course it will.
>I'm merely trying to make a point that both sides, revisionist and jewish leaning pro-history
So you are just trying to be centrist?
>>2036419
Oops, looks like you decided to be fallacious. The validity of the claim is not dependent upon its source, as all sources have the capability to be correct. It is, ironically, your rebuttal that is not an argument. Address the points directly instead of resorting to genetic fallacies.

>>2035913
>"Because they didn't want the judge to find out about the tickle chambers" is an equally valid statement to make

But that just isn't true. If somebody is murdered and we go to the suspect's house and find the victim's blood all over their floor, it is not "equally valid" to conclude that they just happened to be there earlier and had a particularly bad nosebleed. Claims aren't made in a vacuum like you seem to be suggesting.

>>2036004
>Okay, I'll go get the UFO eye-witnesses, you don't seem to understand that they actually saw it. Why don't you believe them? Could it have something to do with the fact that you have faith that the Holocaust occurred, but not in UFOs?

It is not a particularly extraordinary claim to say that Nazi Germany was conducting a systematic killing of Jews. That alien beings are flying around our atmosphere in metallic discs, on the other hand, very much is.

Try using some Bayesian reasoning next time.

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Who cares about holocaust? The biggest lie is so called rape on nanking fabrication. If a such crime has a slightest chance to be be real, Japan would honorably admit that.

>>2036421

>PoWs were not high on the Totem Pole
>Disregard that Western Allied prisoners still managed to get supplied
>Disregard that all the people who were regarded as less than human didn't get any supplies

>>2036421
http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Conversion
This source contradicts you by the way, A proselyte can become a convert.

I'd say more humaist

Regardless of the race, ethnicity, religion, ect of that were killed by the Holocaust, or how exactly they were killed, or what happened to their bodies, a pretty significant population of people was wiped off the systemically by the Nazi's. Genocide is genocide no matter which way you sway it.

>>2036421
>Oops, looks like you decided to be fallacious. The validity of the claim is not dependent upon its source, as all sources have the capability to be correct. It is, ironically, your rebuttal that is not an argument. Address the points directly instead of resorting to genetic fallacies.
The video presents no argument. And, no, not all sources are equally valid, a peer reviewed paper/article/book is superior than a youtube video.
You seem like a person that is confused all through the thread about how the scientific method and historiography works. Perhaps purposefully.

>>2036425

>all Nanking rape documents were stored in Nagasaki

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>>2036423
>If somebody is murdered and we go to the suspect's house and find the victim's blood
Now apply this to reality and outside of my analogy with absolute proof beyond reasonable doubt and I will cede my stance.
>It is not a particularly extraordinary claim to say that Nazi Germany was conducting a systematic killing of Jews
See above. Not an argument to just assume.
>>2036426
Western allies were not in the same situation as the Germans were in, they didn't fight against the Soviet armies.
>>2036427
Even though it states: Judaism does not seek out converts, and actively discourages converts (because a person does not need to be a Jew to be righteous in G-d's eyes), but conversion to Judaism is possible.
That is what I claimed. See how far you get as a gentile in Israel who claims to be Jewish on the level of an actual Israeli.
>>2036432
>The video presents no argument
Did you watch it?
>And, no, not all sources are equally valid, a peer reviewed paper/article/book is superior than a youtube video.
Assuming that academia is some unicorn of objectivity is preposterous. What good is peer review if your peers are identical to you? It is no mystery that academia has been majority left-leaning for the better part of the last half-century, see Rushton's "debate" with Suzuki. Kind of like how there is no conflict of interest with climate scientists, and their studies are gospel, but all other studies that contradict them are conspiracy theories coincidentally rejected by the scientists, who are devoid of conflicts of interest? The same "scientists" and "professors" debated Jordan Peterson, they had their journals and essays peer-reviewed. By that process alone, you should hold their work to a higher value over others.
>You seem like a person that is confused all through the thread about how the scientific method and historiography works.
Not an argument, this does nothing to confirm the existence of mass gassings and cremations as described per the narrative.

>>2036444
nice digits boi

>>2036453

I wasn't referring to German soldiers captured by the Allies...

>>2036461
Pardon the misunderstanding. I'm just stating that it is no surprise that the Germans had to ration what little supplies they had left, they were at war with the other superpowers of the world.

>>2036406
>http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
>It is possible to convert, but they will always be gentiles (if, say, a black man becomes a Jew).

From your source:
>A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew OR ANY PERSON WHO HAS GONE THROUGH THE FORMAL PROCESS OF CONVERSION TO JUDAISM.
>It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew.
> who has not undergone the formal process of conversion
>who has NOT undergone the formal process of conversion
If you HAVE undergone it (giyur) you're a Jew. Do you have any real evidence that contradicts this? There are some religions that really don't allow conversions (like Druze), but Judaism is not one of those.

>>2036462

And if they had to ration supplies, why did they massively favour Allied soldiers over Soviet soldiers and certain kinds of Allied civilians?

>>2036419
your denial is weak

>>2036453
>>2036465
>The Torah does not specifically state anywhere that matrilineal descent should be used; however, there are several passages in the Torah where it is understood that the child of a Jewish woman and a non-Jewish man is a Jew, and several other passages where it is understood that the child of a non-Jewish woman and a Jewish man is not a Jew
>In theory, once the conversion procedure is complete, the convert is as much a Jew as anyone who is born to the religion. In practice, the convert is sometimes treated with caution, because we have had some of bad experiences with converts who later return to their former faith in whole or in part.

He's probably speaking in terms of how it will work out in a real life situation. Sure, you might be a Jew by religious law, and in America or Europe that might fly, but by strict Jewish cultural standards like Israel, you won't be treated the same

>>2036453
>Did you watch it?
Yes. It's irrelevant. It's similar to the /pol/ infopics cherrypicking three ridiculous stories about the holocaust.

>Assuming that academia is some unicorn of objectivity is preposterous. What good is peer review if your peers are identical to you? (...)
Yes, i am aware that you and the rest of conspiranoids think the academia is part of the conspiracy. It's part of your schizophrenia and i don't really care. Peer review is a guarantee of at least some level of quality in research and arguments, which is sorely lacking in the infopics and videos /pol/tards love.

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This thread is an embarrassment to this board.

>There is a giant, decades old conspiracy involving millions of people to hide the truth about the holocaust!
>this merits a serious historical discussion
>bet you can't refute my youtube videos!

>>2036481
It's more of an inter-board discussion. And /his/ isn't on the retarded side.

>>2036465
>Judaism does not seek out converts, and actively discourages converts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0K39Axe2ec
Like I said, the chosen v. gentile dichotomy exists, shvartze will never be of the sons of Judah, they are not chosen. It is deliberately difficult for a reason: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3002/jewish/Why-Is-Conversion-to-Judaism-So-Hard.htm
The Jews have extremely tight in-group preferences, but want the opposite for all other people. For example: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=53c_1446299731
>>2036468
Perception of the worthy. Slavs weren't regarded very highly. Is what you say truthful?
>>2036473
This is my point.
>>2036477
You replied to the post at 5:35, it was posted at 5:32. That is impossible.
>conspiracy
So everything you disagree with? http://www.people-press.org/2016/04/26/a-wider-ideological-gap-between-more-and-less-educated-adults/
>Peer review
I recommend you watch Peterson's recent debate.

>>2036489
and because I know the meme will arise, gender studies degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on, but are offered at most universities these days. They count as the "educated."
In reality, they are taught to never question the narratives that are bound by the Overton window, or those that they agree with.

>>2036489
>You replied to the post at 5:35, it was posted at 5:32. That is impossible.
/pol/tards post the same videos/pics every time.....

I don't see the point of your link.

>>2036506
Why didn't you state that you had previously encountered the information, that is the most logical point that comes to mind, so you may justify the quick response (getting right into the conversation to minimize down time). Seems to me like you're lying, but only you know the truth.
>I don't see the point of your link.
It shows that you are baseless in your "conspiracy" claims; it is proof of my argument. Academia is majority left-wing. That is the truth, read the link.

>>2036513
How is it relevant? I've encountered probably all of the arguments in this thread before.

>It shows that you are baseless in your "conspiracy" claims; it is proof of my argument. Academia is majority left-wing. That is the truth, read the link.
That does not prove bias in assessing historical truth. On the other hand, if shit like holocaust denial is associated with the right, and academia is rational and evidence based, i'm not surprised that most of them consider themselves leftists.

>>2036532
>if shit like holocaust denial is associated with the right

No, it's NOT, it's associated with crackpots and Nazis.

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Take this picture for example. It is pure bullshit.

>>2036532
I already stated, quite clearly, how it is relevant.
>I've encountered probably all of the arguments in this thread before.
yet you present no definitive proof for your claims establishing them beyond reasonable doubt.
>That does not prove bias in assessing historical truth.
Historians are not biased? Why is it that information is biased when it is from the opposing viewpoint, but not when it supports your claims? You just, presumably un-ironically, stated that: "On the other hand, if shit like holocaust denial is associated with the right, and academia is rational and evidence based, i'm not surprised that most of them consider themselves leftists" (we are smarter), claiming that any dissent is automatically intellectually inferior. What's your GPA, all-star? We're anonymous, no need to brag about anything, either post your evidence or leave.
>academia is rational and evidence based
Except when it disagrees with your narrative, like that evolutionary differences also include cognitive ability (and don't play to the hyper-egalitarian case of special pleading for why IQ rates are so low for Africans, or doing away with the concept of IQ altogether, wow how rational).
I won't cower away from the fact that my sources are biased, of course they are biased, everything is. Instead of taking some high ground and acting holier-than-thou, admit the truth and get back to the topic. The bias is put aside when the evidence removes all reasonable doubt. I originally stated that if you can prove that the gassings and cremations occurred in exact accordance with the methodology, instead of referencing smoking guns/screaming murder at proverbial blood puddles, then I will believe you.

>>2036577
>Historians are not biased?
No, not in general.

>Why is it that information is biased when it is from the opposing viewpoint, but not when it supports your claims?
>claiming that any dissent is automatically intellectually inferior
Does not follow from what i said.

>Except when it disagrees with your narrative, like that evolutionary differences (...)
When did i discuss this? On the other hand, if academics are leftist and biased, why are you implying that the consensus is on your side on this issue?

>>2036601
>No, not in general.
Especially on such heated topics like this one. Like I said: to claim that there is no conflict of interest in the narrative of the Holocaust and the hasbara the West is subject to, and the shift of the Overton window by mysterious shadows who, when named, vanish into "conspiracy", is intellectually dishonest.
There is an active effort to push a narrative without sufficient, damning evidence.
>Does not follow from what i said.
Were you not bragging about the intellect of leftists because of their faith in the Holocaust? I must have misunderstood: if shit like holocaust denial is associated with the right, and academia is rational and evidence based, i'm not surprised that most of them consider themselves leftists.
>When did i discuss this?
It is a pitfall to claiming that academia/peer review is accurate. Watch the Peterson debate, the short-haired lady loved that phrase, too. Always when it agrees with you...
>why are you implying that the consensus is on your side on this issue?
Where is it implied? Watch Rushton v. Suzuki, the consensus is vehemently against racial differences.

>>2036331
>>2036311
>>2036284
how many times do you people have to be told that no one in this argument is claiming that 6 million Jews were straight-up gassed? it's been said by most posters over and over that they're not, but you still act like we're claiming all 6 million got Zyklon-B'd.

>>2036627

Ironic, isn't it. They want to dispute "the narrative" even though they actually don't even know what it is.

>>2036627
>>2036639
I assume you are doing some snarky reference to me, as I am the only one scrutinizing your claims. My original post (go check for yourself) outlined the distinction between gassings and other methods, directly referencing the 'narrative', which mostly involves Jews, 6 million (or so), and gas/ash.
>Prove to me that 6 million Jews were killed by gassing (or however many million, outside of shootings and other inefficient methods; bulk of execution was via gassings, as per the narrative)
Pretty distinct about the differences.

>>2036613
>Especially on such heated topics like this one
Not really "heated" in a historiographic sense since the evidence is overwhelming. Unless you mean between functionalism and intentionalism or something like that.

>the narrative of the Holocaust and the hasbara the West is subject to, and the shift of the Overton window by mysterious shadows who, when named, vanish into "conspiracy"
Hilarious phrasing. I'm going to save this.
No, i don't think there is a conflict of interest, nor "mysterious shadows". I think historians look at the evidence and reach a quasi unanimous conclusion.

>Were you not bragging about the intellect of leftists because of their faith in the Holocaust?
More like saying that if you associate yourself with movements that oppose reason and evidence, you can't expect a place that supports it to not oppose you. I certainly didn't say that information that opposes my views is necessarily biased.

>Watch the Peterson debate
>Watch Rushton v. Suzuki
I'm not particularly interested in the subject, but i'll give it a look.

>>2036648

While I wasn't making a direct reference to you, it's clear from your original post that you also have no idea how many Jews were killed by each method.

>>2036654
>evidence is overwhelming.
Surely, such claims can easily be backed up with evidence that undeniable and overtly proves the existence/usage of gas chambers to kill some few million Jews, and cremation ovens to burn their corpses.
>Hilarious phrasing. I'm going to save this.
Not an argument. Michael Scheuer outlines this conflict of interest excellently, if you want to meme around go ahead.
>I think historians look at the evidence and reach a quasi unanimous conclusion.
How convenient, they sure are incorruptible. Why is it that the conclusion always agrees with your narrative? What of the historians who disagree? They are branded anti-Semites, bigots, stripped of their ranks, and dragged around the dust. No conflict of interest or bias what-so-ever. The Overton window is in your favour, for now.
>movements that oppose reason and evidence
So now you are claiming to be reasonable and backed by evidence? You have yet to cite a source from these incorrigible historians which proves the parameters I have set forth above.
>>2036661
In what way are you able to make that judgement? Can you tell me why you think that way? What gave you the flash?

>>2036671
>Surely, such claims can easily be backed up with evidence that undeniable and overtly proves the existence/usage of gas chambers to kill some few million Jews, and cremation ovens to burn their corpses.
>So now you are claiming to be reasonable and backed by evidence?
This has been discussed throughout the thread. There is no point in going over it again, and other people can reach their conclusions from what has been posted.

>Why is it that the conclusion always agrees with your narrative?
Because it is what the evidence supports.

>What of the historians who disagree?
They aren't backed by enough (or any, really) evidence to shift the consensus. Most of the prominent holocaust denier aren't even historians though.

>>2036679
>This has been discussed throughout the thread. There is no point in going over it again, and other people can reach their conclusions from what has been posted.
What fallacious reasoning. Many things have been discussed, but because you say that they are settled matters does not make it so, as there is not sufficient evidence to claim, beyond reasonable doubt, that some few million Jews were subject to gassings and cremated thereafter. Making absolute claims off of that and perpetuating the guilt endlessly enforces the Overton window to align with the hasbara being injected into Western nations.
>Because it is what the evidence supports.
Because the lack of evidence does not allow rational conclusions to be made. Here-say or smoking guns are not reasonable evidence proving the largest genocide in recent human history.
>They aren't backed by enough (or any, really) evidence to shift the consensus.
On what basis? Elaborate.
>Most of the prominent holocaust denier aren't even historians though.
On what grounds? Define your terms and explain how that is truthfully extended to the case.

>>2036671

>In what way are you able to make that judgement?

"Prove to me that 6 million Jews were killed by gassing (or however many million...)

So how many millions were supposedly killed? You don't know?

>outside of shootings and other inefficient methods

How could shooting be an inefficient method, when a large portion of the Jews killed in the Soviet Union were shot? But you didn't know that, did you.

>Prove to me that the six extermination camps were capable of doing this feat

Did the majority of the Jews die in just six camps? (protip: no)

Your "challenge" is bullshit, because you lack the background knowledge to evaluate the arguments, regardless of which side they come from.

>>2036693
>So how many millions were supposedly killed? You don't know?
Certainly not in the millions, until I see counter-evidence proving otherwise overtly and beyond reasonable doubt.
>How could shooting be an inefficient method
Well, the narrative goes that many thousands were executed at once by gassing, certainly faster than bullets. Then they were magically loaded into ovens at record speeds.
>Did the majority of the Jews die in just six camps? (protip: no)
You are merely poisoning the well until you provide evidence for your claims. I do contend with the concept of extermination camps, they were forced labour/POW camps until proven otherwise
>Your "challenge" is bullshit, because you lack the background knowledge to evaluate the arguments, regardless of which side they come from.
"Background knowledge"? No single citation proves the Holocaust as described beyond reasonable doubt, they all point to smoking guns.
"But first, second, and the third=/=mass gassing", only absolute and undeniable proof for mass gassings=mass gassings. I hold that the majority of the deceased were in these such camps, due to malnutrition/over-exhaustion or disease, as I have stated before above.

>>2036705
>counter-evidence proving otherwise overtly and beyond reasonable doubt

Would demographics suffice or what kind of evidence would you expect?

>>2036714
If you can prove that the Third Reich did what they did as you wanted them to do (as per the arguments pointing to the euphemisms, therefore mass gassings occurred) beyond reasonable doubt, then yes.
>demographics
Just because there is a dip does not explain the extermination, that is projecting your own arbitrary narrative on what you want to have happened. If you can prove that that is the objective truth, that is different. But I doubt you can do that. Nobody in this thread has been able to do that, it has just been here-say. I am going to be off to bed in a few, so let's try to wrap this up. Convince me as best you can with anything you have.

>>2036705

You're completely missing the point. You are not capable of evaluating the evidence, because you really know anything about the holocaust, "narrative" or not. Practically every one of your posts shows this. For example:

>Well, the narrative goes that many thousands were executed at once by gassing,

No, that is not "the narrative" A gas chamber did not have the capacity to kill many thousands at once (that many people would not even fit in).

Or:

> I do contend with the concept of extermination camps, they were forced labour/POW camps until proven otherwise

A camp could be both a labor/prisoner camp and an extermination camp. Again, how can you dispute "the narrative" when you don't even know what it is?

>>2035246
Jewish propaganda lad. The people wanted Hitler.

>>2034500
this has nothing to do with /pol/
i've never met anyone coming out from /pol/ that wasn't an absolute subhuman mongloid so you shouldn't even bring them to discussion

this is mostly a problem of free speech, in my opinion. once again, you are free to speak as long as your words don't go against someone's feelings. and that's how you suppress free speech; and baning such a small and seemingly pointless topic you're ending free speech as a whole.

so yeah, if any topic is out of boundaries to be discussed in public then something very wrong is going on.
and to be honest, from what i've seen, i do believe this shit happened, but criminalizing different opinions from the norm seems like something it was done during the time this infamous event happened or not

>>2036725
>You are not capable of evaluating the evidence, because you really know anything about the holocaust
Thank you. Not sure if that was deliberate, but you just said I really know anything about the Holocaust.
>No, that is not "the narrative" A gas chamber did not have the capacity to kill many thousands at once (that many people would not even fit in).
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005220
>At the height of the deportations, up to 6,000 Jews were gassed each day at Auschwitz.
>A camp could be both a labor/prisoner camp and an extermination camp.
Surely, such a claim can easily be proven to be true. I have never stated that the two could not exist. You quote me directly, but strawman me below. I stated that: I do contend with the concept of extermination camps, they were forced labour/POW camps until proven otherwise. By definition, the camp is no longer a labour camp, but a mixed camp. You cannot call it a labour camp if it also kills its inmates, it is some off-shoot. You would run out of workers. It's just common sense and arguing based off of the definition of both terms.

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>>2034538
>>2034594
>>2035812
>>2034991
germans being efficient is a popular misconception because the rest of the world
thinks they're hardworkers
but the truth is they're incapable of feeling emotions like love, empathy and lack the capability to have any kind of fun so they waste their pathetic lives working - but if someone rallies them and tell them to work to destroy the rest of the world, they do it for free since there's nothing they love more than starting suicidal wars against people having fun and being happy

Alright, the lack of citations and the persistence to uphold the common, baseless narrative has me tired. I feel that I have quite persistently made my point overtly clear, and put my beliefs up for scrutiny. I implore any readers to come forward with the best evidence they have for the existence of the Holocaust. No here-say, pointing at blood puddles and crying murder, or smoking guns. As I have said almost ten times now, the largest genocide in recent human history requires more evidence than that. Until otherwise proven, one cannot make absolute statements about baseless events if one wishes to remain intellectually honest. I am off to bed, feel free to review my posts and discuss them. I have attempted to remain civil, whereas many of my opponents used strawmen/ad-hominems against me. Not what you would expect from a group of people who are allegedly on the side of "reason and evidence" and who are "on the right side of history". Anyways, I digress. If this is up in half a day, then I will continue. If not, goodbye.

>>2036742

>At the height of the deportations, up to 6,000 Jews were gassed each day at Auschwitz.

Apparently, you also don't know how to read. The article says "each day", not "at once". This is the danger of trying to google things when someone challenges you on your lack of knowledge

>You cannot call it a labour camp if it also kills its inmates
>You would run out of workers

This is the dumbest thing you wrote so far.

>>2036722
Nope, I am asking what kind of evidence would make you happy.

>Photos
fake
>Large change in demographics
not enough
>physical evidence of camps
not enough
>production of odourless HCN
Not enough

What does count as "sufficient evidence" to you? Time machine?

>>2036284
I was wrong in this statement, i should have said there weren't 6,000,000 in Germany. In the whole of Europe then almost 9,000,000+. To catch that many people, what I still believe, is that it seems an impossible task, even for a well organized military.

>>2036779
>. To catch that many people, what I still believe, is that it seems an impossible task, even for a well organized military.

So it's possible for the German military to capture millions of enemy soldiers as POWs, but not Jews? Come on.

Plus, most of the Jews weren't actually "caught" per se. So the whole point is moot anyway.

>>2036792
>captured millions of enemy soldier

And yet only 416,800 Americans died according to the records. I don't buy it, sorry.

>>2036771
He asked for videos and photos. Any historical event that doesn't have videos and photos can't be proven to have happened.

>>2036806
>>2036413

>>2036753
butthurt pole pls go

>>2036802

You are now aware that Germany was at war with more than just the USA.

>>2036810
I posted this in favor of peeps who disbelieve the media narrative of course.

>>2036810
The Sage guy is a superior /pol/tard, you should learn to argue and chose sources from him. Avoid the solipsism though.

>>2036802

You are now aware that you're posting on the wrong board.

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Who was in the right here?

>>2036806
Its just plain dumb.
There are tons of documents, videos and pictures.
Anyone who doubts it is /pol/tard or retard, hate-crime considering holocaust is different pair of shoes, but considering which kind of people subscribe to that belief its fully justified, in my opinion denial of thing like armenian genocide, katyn, and so on should be fully justified, as it is something proved million time and only used to push political agenda which is highly immoral

>>2036829
Reminder that the 4 million figure was never taken into account.
>Shortly following the camp's liberation, the Soviet government stated that four million people had been killed on the site, a figure now regarded as greatly exaggerated.[164] While under interrogation, Höss said that Adolf Eichmann told him that two and a half million Jews had been killed in gas chambers and about half a million more had died of other causes.[165] Later he wrote, "I regard the figure of two and a half million as far too high. Even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive possibilities".[166] Gerald Reitlinger's 1953 book The Final Solution estimated the number killed to be 800,000 to 900,000,[167] and Raul Hilberg's 1961 work The Destruction of the European Jews estimated the number killed to be a maximum of 1,000,000 Jewish victims.[168]
>In 1983, French scholar George Wellers was one of the first to use German data on deportations to estimate the number killed at Auschwitz, arriving at a figure of 1,471,595 deaths, including 1.35 million Jews and 86,675 Poles.[169] A larger study started by Franciszek Piper used timetables of train arrivals combined with deportation records to calculate at least 960,000 Jewish deaths and at least 1.1 million total deaths,[170] a figure adopted as official by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum in the 1990s.[171][e] Piper stated that a figure of as many as 1.5 million total deaths was possible.[171]

OP is a master baiter who managed to have all the unwanted /pol/acks and stormfags congregate into one thread. Good job OP.

>>2036816
Well yeah, I was only addressing American pow's, my mistake. Millions died of course, but it seems millions of American soldiers specifically would not have been captured, given the odds of how many died. Surely the USSR and yugos were caught, and everyone else.

Making it a much bigger number. But you would think, of the many that were captured -if they were truly a "death machine" as they say, no one would have survived. Not a jew, not a pow, not even a medic.

Clearly they had an ethical conduct with respect to a just war.

>>2036613
>Rushton v. Suzuki
>look at these studies
>they aren't scientific, you can't control the variables
>yes you can
>no you can't
>yes you can
>no you can't
Well, i just wasted 2 hours.

>>2034776
Because if you strip off the monarchy, hungary, etc. from austria is basically a german state like bavaria, saxony, prussia, etc. The country had lost its identity asfterr ww1. I think the country had to be prevented from joining germany on it's own

>>2036829
>You really think someone would do that? Just come up to a plaque-engraver and make shit up?

The first plaque was put up by the Soviets, who are well known for fabrication of numbers and facts, and frequently inflated numbers of all WW2 deaths (Oh blin! My 6 gorrillian murdered Red Heroes!! Now gibe Deutschmarks so we forget how angry we are...)

It stood until the fall of the Iron Curtain. As soon as Poles became independent, the second plaque was put up, in the 1990s. Already in the early 1950s, most Jewish scholars had pegged the number around 1.1 million JEWS at Auschwitz, and a few hundred thousand more Gypsies, Commies, Polish and Russian military and other political prisoners.

>>2036806
Aw shit, I guess all history pre-1880s is lost to the ether then.

>>2034500
Holocaust denial laws are not compatible with Western values of intellectual freedom. That being said, people who deny the Holocaust are stormfags.

>>2036912
But there are even Jews exist who have questioned the holocaust.

>>2036923
There are Slavic neonazis, so why not Jewish?

>>2034802
>Not like holocaust deniers are valuable members of society.
If you don't belive in gassing or 6gorillion, how exactly does your value to society decrease?

>>2036852

Except that the Nazis had survival rates with differences ranging in literal orders of magnitude depending on the nationality of the prisoner. An American PoW in a German camp had less than 1% chance of dying. A Soviet PoW in a German camp had an over 50% chance of dying.

And before you bring up "But there were so many more Soviet PoWs", I would point out that the Germans interned a bit over 2 million French soldiers at the close of the 1940 surrender, and almost none of them died.

>Making it a much bigger number. But you would think, of the many that were captured -if they were truly a "death machine" as they say, no one would have survived. Not a jew, not a pow, not even a medic.

Read this.

https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0060995068

It wasn't policy from Day One universally implemented to KILL THEM ALL! The push for extermination en masse was gradually arrived at and implemented piecemeal, because contrary to the usual memes, Nazi Germany was actually a chaotic, bureaucratic mess, and very few people knew what the hell was going on outside their own departments.

Furthermore, Nazi "social science", posited a hierarchy of races, some of whom got treated nastier than others.

>Clearly they had an ethical conduct with respect to a just war.

Clearly they didn't, since they admitted to full scale massacres of PoWs, and had a PoW death rate (for untermenschen anyway) enormously higher than the death rate for other PoWs, which points to malicious intent.

>>2036779
There were never 6million on nazi controlled land.

>>2036983
If you waste your life on producing bullshit like holocaust-denial publications or consider genocides "fun", you are worthless person.

>>2036984
50% chance

those odds are pretty good considering commies a shit.

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>>2034586
>you are retarded
>you suck big dick
pick either and only either.

>captcha: outlet temple

>>2037065
You seem angry

>>2036754
I was the poster replying to you for like 3 hours last night.

>>2036742
>>2036725

Basically what he's arguing is that the "Holocaust" only exists by the definition that is outlined by sources that are biased towards Jewish suffering, That "every single jew that Hitler killed died by gassing, and all of them we're cremated.", and mistakenly believing/arguing for the sake of arguing that the above is the widely accepted by academia, and the majority of the world's population. By his definition, most people are "Holocaust Deniers", despite still accepting that the Lolocaust happened, and killed not just Jews.

>>2036759
Each day still refers to thousands being killed.
>This is the dumbest thing you wrote so far.
What an excellent argument. If you exterminate your labourers, you will run out of labourers. 6000 a day is a lot.
>>2036771
No need to strawman me, there are photos which are not faked, and photos which are faked. They will be put up to scrutiny. Demographic evidence is not enough, you are pointing at population dips and assuming extermination, do away with your own arbitrary narrative.
>physical evidence of camps
Here we go again, it was physical location of the camps you stated, not physical evidence. The two are different terms.
>HCN
And now if you can prove that this exact methodology (cyanide usage) was capable of killing however many million (not exactly 6 million, we've been over this), then I will believe you.
>Time machine
Some evidence takes you there and proves it overtly. Not time machines, no need to poke fun.
>>2036855
Examine the audience reaction, it is equivalent to late night shows with leftist hosts. Because the information goes against the narrative, it is rejected as "racist" or bigoted. No actual overt rebuttals. I wasted my time, too. That was the point.
>>2038039
>I was the poster replying to you for like 3 hours last night.
I'm back.
>killed not just Jews.
The main point here is involving Jews, nobody actually cares about the other groups. The first thing that is the most overt in the minds of the people when they think Shoah is gassings/cremation, and Jews. I am saying we need absolute proof for this, first.

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>>2036477
Here's another one. Studies are without bias and peer-review is super relevant...especially when it agrees with me.

I have not made my stance clear on anything regarding the Jews, but for my crime of asking for evidence, it has been insinuated that I am some white nationalist. How quickly can it be determined the colour of my skin from an anonymous postings?
If it was any other topic, asking for absolute evidence/information before arriving at the claims would be the logical course of action, but this is not the case with the Holocaust. If it is such settled science, then why can you not easily prove however many millions of Jews were gassed, and then cremated, with the methodology of the narrative you espouse and within the time frame? Seems like such a simple thing to do if you believe that it happened as it did.
Instead, all I get are ad-hominems and 'just google it, read a book, man'.

>>2039497
>redpanels.com
Go back to /pol/

>>2039530
Quote me directly (I have used a name the entire thread) on an instance where I have attacked the source over the material of the message.
Come back when you can actually formulate an actual argument to prove your case.

>>2036984
The soviets ate up the propaganda. Hell, if anything we should be thanking the SS. For every marxist that died then, is a marxist the US wouldn't have to face down the historical line. And one less commie that wouldn't rape a German woman.

>>2039530
>>2039537
I feel that I have given you sufficient time to back up your claims, but you have not quoted me directly in an instance where I was invoking the genetic fallacy. It seems as if this is a common theme amongst people who have faith, not facts, in the Holocaust.
Still waiting on non-fallacious arguments. Here-say and smoking guns aren't arguments.

>>2039402
>Demographic evidence is not enough
It actually is enough for virtually all of the educated audiance, but nvm.

>And now if you can prove that this exact methodology (cyanide usage) was capable of killing however many million (not exactly 6 million, we've been over this), then I will believe you.
now we are getting somewhere, If Nazis specifically ordered odourless HCN(the one better to kill people) would it be enough of evidence to you?

>Not time machines, no need to poke fun.
I am not "poking fun". I am seriously asking you to provide an example of evidence that would be sufficient to you. Since if historians would be so picky with evidence as you are, there would be no genocides in history whatsoever.

>>2039671
>for virtually all of the educated audiance
Shame you can't actually spell the word audience, doesn't really make your case for "education". Also, that isn't really an argument, just typical snark. "But where could they have gone"=/=mass gassing.
>If Nazis specifically ordered odourless HCN(the one better to kill people) would it be enough of evidence to you?
Source it and prove beyond reasonable doubt that it killed however many million Jews/others, and that their bodies were cremated afterwards. By the same sources many use (nizkor, for example), that is the definition of the Holocaust, so I am asking you to prove the definition of the Holocaust.
>I am not "poking fun". I am seriously asking you to provide an example of evidence that would be sufficient to you.
Time travel is not possible, otherwise we would know of it because time is not a restrictive factor. So you are still making snarky non-arguments.
>Since if historians would be so picky with evidence as you are, there would be no genocides in history whatsoever.
For some, the burden of proof is met, for others, not so much. Again, "but you don't 'x' about 'y'" is not an argument, we are discussing the Holocaust, prove the methodology and the figures beyond reasonable doubt. That is what I have been asking from the start, if you can do that, thenI cede my stance and will believe you.

>>2039682
>"But where could they have gone"=/=mass gassing.
Sure thing, those damn kekes must be hidin' in caves. memes aside, demographics are the most important source in the estimation of the number of vicims, so I don't really get your distrust.

>Source it
It's nearly 5AM, lad. It's somewhere on Nizkor, I can't be bothered to look it up for the tenth time.

>prove the methodology and the figures beyond reasonable doubt
You don't get it, do you? I'm asking how should such superproof look like. Demographics are not enough, orders are not enough, witnesses are not enough, diaries are not enough, facilities that concentrated jews are not enough, HCN riddled facilities with crematoria are not enough. You even left space for evasion to the odourless Zyclon B.

I'm kinda running out of ideas at this, so tell me for example how would you proof the communist genocide in Cambodia and it's numbers? Or it didn't happened too?

>prove the methodology and the figures beyond reasonable doubt
Hillberg (and many others) did, I am not qualified to do so.

....so much talk, an nothing good comes of it.. I even said things I should probably take back..

Lord, please find room to understand even those who have been deceived by their leaders... find room for those who were pushed too far... and help those who are exposing the truth, whatever it may be.. bring justice, Lord, justice to those affected by these conflicts, even today. And justice to the unjust..


in Jesus name, Amen.

>>2039770
>Sure thing, those damn kekes must be hidin' in caves. memes aside, demographics are the most important source in the estimation of the number of vicims, so I don't really get your distrust.
You cannot claim that the dip in population was due to "x" extermination method, without first providing absolute evidence for your claims.
>It's nearly 5AM, lad. It's somewhere on Nizkor, I can't be bothered to look it up for the tenth time.
I debated with you until 6 am before I went to bed. Not an argument, source your claims or don't.
>I'm asking how should such superproof look like.
Superproof? You mean evidence, like the evidence they use in a court of law? There cannot be any doubt as to the narrative. From a financial point-of-view, billions of dollars in reparations were paid. If there is not absolute evidence to prove that however many million Jews died in the Shoah via gassing, and were then cremated within the time frame, then there is not enough evidence to make absolute claims. Simple as that.
>Demographics are not enough, orders are not enough, witnesses are not enough, diaries are not enough, facilities that concentrated jews are not enough, HCN riddled facilities with crematoria are not enough.
They are all smoking guns. "Population dip"=/=mass gassings/cremations. Diaries are not sufficient enough, that means nothing. Why do you deny the life works of prominent UFO "experts"? It is purely to fuel your narrative. Try to be objective before you make absolute claims.
>facilities that concentrated jews are not enough
Can you prove that many millions were gassed, and then cremated?
>orders are not enough
Smoking gun euphemisms are not proof.
>HCN riddled facilities with crematoria are not enough.
Source it and prove that, within the confines of the methodology, it was viable to gas millions of Jews, and then cremate their bodies with ovens within the time frame.
"But you don't hold x true/untrue about y" is a non-sequitur, we are discussing the Shoah

>>2039770
>Hillberg (and many others) did, I am not qualified to do so.
Source it and prove that their claims are backed by reason and objective evidence. Do your sources prove that however many million Jews were exterminating via gassing and that their bodies were cremated?

Why is the Holocaust not held up to this absolute standard of proof? It is convincing evidence (testimonies and other proofs), but it is not absolute evidence (which is evidence that warrants making absolute claims, such as "4 million Jews were gassed and cremated thereafter"). If you cannot cite sources which prove this and pass the logical pitfalls (why cram multiple bodies into one oven if you wish to be efficient, you are limiting the surface area for the reaction to occur; it would be more efficient to spread them out. Also over-hyping the efficiency of German engineering in order to meet the body counts/transportation between gassings & cremation), then it become truth. Otherwise, it is just conspiracy theories backed by faith in the narrative over fact for the narrative.

Still waiting for absolute proof showing that however many million (4-6, but still MILLION) Jews were gassed as described and then cremated with the technology of that era and during the timeframe. Prove this and I will believe you.

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>>2040120

Lol. Stop bumping your own thread.

We realized you aren't worth talking to as we could provide you with evidence until we were blue in the face and you'd still be a denier.

>>2034500
Holocaust denial laws are retarded

Holocaust deniers are retarded

Both can be true.

>>2040148
>Lol. Stop bumping your own thread.
Not an argument, this is not proof for your claims.
>We realized you aren't worth talking to as we could provide you with evidence until we were blue in the face and you'd still be a denier.
I have explicitly stated that I am open to evidence that directly corroborates the six million (or however many million you believe) Jews being gassed, then transported to the crematoria, and cremated with technology of that era within the time frame. Outline your argument, define your terms, move forward with your allegations, and provide absolute evidence (no smoking guns) for the millions who allegedly died. Otherwise you have no standing.

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>>2040171

Its not an argument because we stopped arguing with you.

I'm only replying now out of my own amusement.

>>2040185
Lack of substantive evidence proving your claim means that you operate under faith, not facts, when you continue false allegations. If you cannot show forensic evidence and provide logical arguments back by absolute evidence showing six million died via gassings, and were promptly cremated, then you have no standing to make claims that are not objective. God forbid you step foot in a courtroom.

>>2040194

Yeah god forbid, we'd have a trial over this and that people would be hanged over it since there was no evidence.

Yep. People involved in the holocaust would never have to step into a court room over this.