Why did protestants abandon Christian monasticism?

>>2020098

Christians and buggery don't mix well.

>>2020098

Protestant governments wanted to confiscate monastic lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_monasteries

>>2020128
Thats pretty rage inducing.

>>2020098
The Reformation was a power grab of monarchs (and/or nobles) against the Church and involved the confiscation of monestic property.

Look at the Grand Master Albrecht von Hohenzollern who literally privitized the Teutonic Order to become a Lutheran feudal duke.

>>2020098
they were largely in a degenerate state

that said there has been a revival, there are now protestant monks of various persuasion eg evangelical

>>2020098
Because many monasteries were full of wealth and riches, and an appealing target to the protestant princes of the time.
>>2020172
>von Hohenzollern
They had their fingers in everything didn't they?

>>2020128
is there no theological reasons. im really interested now actually.

>>2020098

Jesus: Go therefore into Jerusalem, and Judea, and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Catholics: Be a monk.

See the difference?

It continued on in Anglicanism and Lutheranism.

>>2020145
Why?

>>2020179
There's a monastic order in Taize started by Protestants if anyone is interested

>>2020190
Monks did a lot of preaching, outside of their other activities

>>2020098
http://www.prayerfoundation.org/brief_history_protestant_monasticism.htm
>By 2008: There are estimated to be over 100 groups in North America claiming to be both "Evangelical" and "Monastic"
http://celticevangelicalmonasticsociety.org/faq/

>>2020206
Yes, people taking vows of silence preach volumes.

How gay does something have to be before you stop defending it?

>>2020220
>claiming

>>2020222
you do know entire orders of monks were founded to proselytise right

>>2020225
are you claiming their aren't proddie monks

>>2020222
Not all monks were trappist monks. which you would know if you got your information from books rather than movies

Different orders of monks had different rules and different goals. Besides the fact before printing presses if you wanted a bible or some other Christian writings a monastery is probably where it came from

>>2020098
They didn't.

>>2020145

There's a late 16th century writer who described seeing it happen in his childhood, with pages of handwritten Bibles and manuscripts fluttering like fallen leaves, having been ripped out of their covers and bindings and left behind.

>>2020098
http://www.taize.fr/en_article6525.html

>>2020184
>They had their fingers in everything didn't they?
What do you mean?

Albrecht was the first Duke of Prussia. The Hohenzollers up to Willy 2 were his successors (not in a straight male line though due to the Brandenburg merger a few generations later).

He was the Grand Master of the Teutonic Order and spent the first few years of his tenure assuring the pope that he was fighting against the Protestant rot supposedly spreading among the Order's top brass. Secretly, he was the one spreading it.

Then he basically self-couped: he broke with the Catholic Church by officially converting to Lutheranism and declared himself a hereditary monarch of the former Teutonic Order's lands. He avoided any major consequences by immediately swearing fealty to the King of Poland (his uncle), who was in on the conspiracy.

tl;dr: Prussia was LITERALLY founded on stealing from the Catholic Church.

>>2020253
>Prussia was LITERALLY founded on stealing from the Catholic Church.
Literally nothing wrong with stealing from the Catholic Church back then.

>>2020220
how do you become a protestant monk?

>>2020231

A kind warning that not everything that says it is X is actually X.

>>2020289
>proddy monks don't exist

>>2020234
Actually, you just didn't get one. It was chained to the pulpit in a Jesuit stronghold guarded by soldiers, just so you couldn't read it.

And if you did sneak a copy in your own language, guaranteed some Jesuit would find it, burn it, and kill your family.

Is a complete and utter ignorance regarding History a prerequisite to posting here?

>>2020253
And the Catholic Church was founded on the stealing of land via the fraudulent and forged Donation of Constantine.

Or didn't they teach you that in Jesuit school?

>>2020273

>there's nothing g wrong with taking institutions that had educated children, fed the poor and healed the sick for more than a thousand years, stealing everything you possibly can up to the lead from the roofs, torturing to death anyone who resists and leaving the rest to rot. All so you can cram more pies into your gaping maw and have more sluts run up and down your cock.
>Oh and those poor people? Make it illegal for them to be poor, have them whipped and let them starve.

>>2020273
It certainly might have seemed so to a young nobleman sworn to celibacy and the thankless job of administering a monastic realm, especially with a Wormtongue like Luther at his side whispering that he should steal it all for himself and start a dynasty.

>>2020301
Must have been the same for the state who saw a taxless, power hungry organisation gobble up more and more land for itself.

>>2020295

>posts pseudohistory bordering on conspiracy theory
>calls others ignorant of history

You are now aware that privately owned bibles were all over the place throughout the medieval world, including in the vernacular? With the majority of surviving examples being privately held rather than church copies?

>>2020299
>Implying they only took it to live a more luxurious life
>Implying the monastries wasn't leeching on society more than they were aiding to it

>>2020098
some of Erasmus' criticisms of monasticism:

>that, in withdrawing from the world into their own communal life, they elevated man-made monastic vows of poverty, chastity and obedience above the God-given vows of sacramental baptism; and elevated man-made monastic rules for religious life above the God-given teachings of the Gospels;

>that, notwithstanding exceptional communities of genuine austere life and exemplary charity, the overwhelming majority of abbeys and priories were havens for idle drones; concerned only for their own existence, reserving for themselves an excessive share of the commonwealth's religious assets, and contributing little or nothing to the spiritual needs of ordinary people;

>that the monasteries, almost without exception, were heavily involved in promoting and profiting from the veneration of relics, in the form of pilgrimages and purported miraculous tokens. The cult of relics was by no means specific to monasteries, but Erasmus was scandalised by the extent to which well-educated and highly regarded monks and nuns would participate in the perpetration of obvious frauds against gullible and credulous lay believers.

>>2020318

Henry VIII litterally suppressed the monestaries to get their money and to give their lands to his nobles to gain their support.

>>2020328
>Transferred the land to people loyal to him rather than a Italian a some hundreds of miles away
good on him

>>2020333

>it's good for a king to destroy the one thing supporting his lowliest subjects and allowing them to starve, in order to litterally feed his own face

>>2020352
>implying monastries weren't fat sons of nobles themselves eating themselves fat on the peasant's hard labor
>Forgetting the Tudors introduced poverty relief

Face it, it was just as justified as the viking raids on monastries were.

>>2020366

Yeah, the Tudors, not THAT Tudor.

Monks being all third rate nobility is something of a meme.

>>2020366
Vikers would not vike monasteries if there was nothing worth viking

>>2020366
ora

et

labora

>>2020312
Die lying scum. So clearly talking about a time from 325 AD to the Reformation.

“Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should
not be permitted to have the books of the Old or
New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having
any translation of these books.”
– The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Scolar Press, London, England
copyright 1980 by Edward Peters,
ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195

>>2020325

Men who live to indulge the flesh are the same as men who live to deny the flesh; they both live in the flesh.

Men of God live in the Spirit, not the flesh.

>>2020312
Hey, papist scum. Any thoughts on this "infallible" utterance?

The Council of Tarragona of 1234,
in its second canon, ruled that:

“No one may possess the books of the Old
and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses
them he must turn them over to the local bishop
within eight days, so that they may be burned…”
– The Church Council of Tarragona 1234 AD;
2nd Cannon – Source : D. Lortsch,
Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.

>>2020372
It wasn't that many tudors to begin with.
And now x% didn't go straight to the coffins of the popes.

>>2020379
Of course.
Anti terrorism isn't free.

>>2020386
>Implying the Catholic Church wasn't throughouthly corrupt at the time

>>2020312

tired yet, Jesuit victim? How about this one? The bible on the forbidden list?

“Opened on Thursday alongside the Inquisition
archives was the infamous Index of Forbidden Books,
which Roman Catholics were forbidden to read
or possess on pain of excommunication. They showed
that even “the Bible” was once on the blacklist.
Translations of the holy book ended up on the bonfires
along with other “heretical” works…The Index
of Forbidden Books and all excommunications relating
to it were officially abolished in 1966. The Inquisition
itself was established by Pope Gregory IX in 1233….”
-Vatican archives reveal Bible was once banned book
By Jude Webber
ROME, Jan 22, 1998 (Reuters)

>>2020352
>>it's good for a king to destroy the one thing supporting his lowliest subjects and allowing them to starve, in order to literally feed his own face

The issue is they weren't doing that, less than 5% of their enormous wealth was spent on charity whats more they even were muscling in on resources collected by local parishes.

There is a reason why there was no great outcry from the masses when this happened

>>2020312
What was that you said again about the medieval times?

“Whoever reads or has such a translation in his
possession… cannot be absolved from his sins
until he has turned in these Bibles…Books in the vernacular dealing with the controversies between Catholics and the heretics of our time are not to be generally permitted, but are to be handled in the same way as Bible translations…”
– Rule IV & Rule VI
Die Indices Librorum Prohibitorum des sechzehnten
Jahrhunderts (Tübingen, 1886), page 246f.
Source: The Reformation, by Hans J. Hillerbrand,
copyright 1964 by SCM Press Ltd and Harper and Row,Inc.,
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 64-15480,
pages 474, 475.

>>2020312
the thing that matters is that they weren't translated so only the rich could read them, rich who gladly allied the Church as long as it benefited them to some degree.

>>2020388

I guess that means all those hundreds of medieval Bibles, Psalters, Prayer Books, Books of Hours, etc etc etc just don't exist then.

http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?ct=facet&fctN=facet_local6&fctV=English&rfnGrp=1&rfnGrpCounter=1&dscnt=0&vl(1UI0)=contains&vl(drStartMonth3)=00&vl(1UI2)=contains&tab=local&dstmp=1480467736865&srt=rank&vl(boolOperator0)=AND&mode=Advanced&&indx=1&vl(4961882UI2)=any&vl(47200252UI4)=all_items&vl(freeText0)=Bible&vl(2604854UI1)=any&fn=search&vid=IAMS_VU2&vl(freeText2)=&vl(boolOperator2)=AND&vl(drEndMonth3)=00&vl(drStartYear3)=1230&vl(1UI1)=contains&frbg=&vl(boolOperator1)=AND&ct=search&dum=true&vl(drEndDay3)=00&vl(drEndYear3)=1540&Submit=Search&vl(drStartDay3)=00&vl(2126785UI0)=any&vl(freeText1)=

what is the point of being a monk?

this isn't the dark or medieval ages anymore. we don't need a bunch of people hand copying books.

>>2020396
>>2020401
>>2020408

Cool hastily Googled quotes with half the content and context ripped away.

And yet the British Library alone has litterally hundreds of personal Bibles from the Late Medieval and Early Modern period

>>2020098
>Christian monasticism
Where is that in the bible again?

>>2020406

Apart from that Pilgrimage of Grace thing.

>>2020412

But they were translated.

>>2020447
Which involved a bunch of things apart from fat monks being torn from their land.

>>2020098
Read Wycliffe

>>2020439
What is the point of you being alive? It's not like we need you to post stupid shit all the time.

>>2020451

But that was ONE of the things.

>>2020442
>No one may possess the books of the Old
>and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses
>them he must turn them over to the local bishop
>within eight days, so that they may be burned
There is no context in which this is not evil and anti-Christian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Toulouse
"We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old and the New Testament; unless anyone from the motives of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

>>2020439
LARPing

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205KB, 358x358px

>Organisation claiming to bring on the works of a man living without wealth
>Becomes the richest organisation in Europe, becoming the biggest landowner in at least a few countries

>>2020458

Don't try to change the subject. You were trying to claim noone owned a Bible and they were all locked up under guard of anachronistic "Jesuit soldiers", which is patently false.

>>2020396
Not that guy, but why did you cut out "in the Romance language" from the D. Lortsch quote?

>"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned lest, be he a cleric or a layman, he be suspected until he is cleared of all suspicion."

We are talking about the Cathar heresy in aftermath of the Albigensian crusade here.

The Index of the Forbidden Books (>>2020401) didn't ban "the Bible" either; it banned translations not accepted by the Church.

>>2020299
Fuck The Babylonian Catholic Church
>>2020301
>tiny Dutchy
>making enemies with all surrounding enemies for greed

>>2020439
To minimise your exposure to sin and max your chances of getting into heaven

>>2020253
>Prussia was LITERALLY founded on stealing from the Catholic Church.
Nicene Christianity was LITERALLY founded on stealing from the Roman Empire.

>>2020475
>own bible
>get burned at stake

>>2020480

It's almost as if he's deliberately editing those quotes to line up with his own viewpoints, rather than what actually happened, or something...

>>2020388
>325 AD
Nicaea?

>>2020486

Care to cite examples of those two things happening, with no other factors involved? Or how that lines up with the hundreds of medieval Bibles still extant?

>>2020449
It was illegal to translate scripture into vulgar tongues and was also condemned by the Church. This is a historical fact.

>>2020494

And yet it happened.

>>2020493
>Or how that lines up with the hundreds of medieval Bibles still extant?
A bible in a language no one but clergy can speak is no bible

>>2020496
Yes, by proto-Protestants

are NEETs like monks?

>>2020481
>making enemies with all surrounding enemies for greed

Poland and Lithuania (in a personal union at the time) were the nascent Prussia's only neighbour (encircling it entirely) and their ruler was Albrecht's uncle who supported the coup.

>>2020503
NEETs are undisciplined. Monks, if they are doing their jobs right, are extremely disciplined

>>2020502
WE

>>2020505
It's a fact that Albert did it out of faith, and not greed. Catholics simply need historical revisionism to survive.

>>2020498

>he thinks only clergy spoke Latin
>only my increadibly selective interpretation of X is really X

If you bothered to follow that BL link, you'd find several language options available in the filters. The third actual entry should be Egerton MS 618, a 15th century Wycliffite (English language) Bible.

>>2020508
There were two vernacular translations before the Reformation, the Wycliffe bible and the Hussite bible. It's also possible there was a French translation produced by the Waldensians, but there simply was no Catholic translation.

>>2020445
>determinism and Calvinism et al
where is that in the bible?

>>2020516
>determinism
Logical conclusion from god being both almighty and omnipotent.

>>2020498
Most people who could read read and wrote in Latin. It was the lingua Franca until well after the reformation

Where are you getting this idea that peasants had the ability/money to read anyway

>>2020447
Which was over the enforcement of a protestant state religion and property laws+ taxes with Monks only being a minor component of this.

Another fun fact Monasteries owned over 16% of all English land

>>2020513
>>he thinks only clergy spoke Latin
Only the scholars monks and priests spoke Latin.
>>only my increadibly selective interpretation of X is really X
What?
>Wycliffite
John Wycliffe was a proto-reformer who's teachings were declared anathema by the RCC. His followers were called Lollards, not Wycliffites.

>>2020516
John 6, Romans 9 and the entire Old Testament

>>2020525
>Most people who could read read and wrote in Latin.
Enough literate people who couldn't speak Latin existed for Rome to fear them reading the bible. If so few literate people couldn't speak Latin, then why did Rome ban vernacular bibles?

>>2020529

No.

That's you.

WE WUZ LOLLARDS AND SHEIT. Also Wycliffite and Lollard mean litterally the same thing.

>>2020545
>That's you.
What's me?
>WE WUZ LOLLARDS AND SHEIT.
It's an accepted historical fact. Wycliffe and the Lollards taught the Solas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformers#Precursors

>>2020539

When you bother to actually look it up, they didn't fear people reading the Bible. They feared any old heretic writing whatever they wanted and passing it off as the actual Bible.

You know, kind of how today anyone can write a conspiracy theory and pass it off as a history book.

>>2020098
They couldn't find it in the bible and couldn't find a way to separate it from the Catholic Church. It was a way of removing church presence from Protestant land as well.

>>2020550

Good for them. Yet the point remains. Bibles were freely available. In multiple languages. Not chained up under anachronistic guard.

>>2020554
>When you bother to actually look it up, they didn't fear people reading the Bible.
Yes they did. They recognized their power and wealth came from a religous monopoly that would vanish if the common man could interpret scripture.
>They feared any old heretic writing whatever they wanted and passing it off as the actual Bible.
I didn't know the Reformation produced the Joseph Smith Version
>>2020561
>Bibles were freely available
Yes, in spite of the Catholic attempts to remove them.

>>2020556
Hey wolfie did you end up finishing that pastebin response to East Orthodoxy?

A Bible being casually mentioned in personal correspondence between minor gentry and a servant.

But noone owned them and they were all locked up by time travelling Jesuits.

>>2020189
Just proddies bowing to their usurer masters like always

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>>2020586

>>2020566

So now you're admitting they were freely available? I thought they were "chained to the pulpit in a Jesuit stronghold guarded by soldiers, just so you couldn't read it."

If that is the case, how did the reformers get at copies to make translations?

Two interrelated reasons
For the general protestant reformer it was because like the rest of the Church monasticism has grown extremely wealthy and powerful in a worldly sense, and with that came corruption. It doesn't help that monastic orders had become an integral part of the general Church hierarchy(you can thank masochist monks for really spreading the Papal supremacy meme).
For the Rulers said vast holdings of land/wealth were tempting targets and they used the reformation as an opportunity to expropriate them.

Protestants have no spirit.

>>2020613
proddies are becoming monks

>>2020605
>So now you're admitting they were freely available?
They were hardly "freely" available. They were illegal contraband, they had to be kept in secret.
I also never said they were unavailable, i said Rome didn't want them available
>I thought they were "chained to the pulpit in a Jesuit stronghold guarded by soldiers, just so you couldn't read it."
Why did you think that? That's retarded.
>If that is the case, how did the reformers get at copies to make translations?
Desiderus Erasmus published the first printed Greek New Testament known as the "Textus Receptus"
>For the Rulers said vast holdings of land/wealth were tempting targets and they used the reformation as an opportunity to expropriate them.
For many rulers. But that is just thieves stealing from thieves.

>>2020626
Meant to also link >>2020606

>>2020301
>>2020311
>It certainly might have seemed so to a young nobleman sworn to celibacy and the thankless job of administering a monastic realm, especially with a Wormtongue like Luther at his side whispering that he should steal it all for himself and start a dynasty.

2 Timothy 4:3
"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:"

>>2020637
The bible is a Protestant book

>>2020626

Because that's litterally what you said.

>>2020295

>Actually, you just didn't get one. It was chained to the pulpit in a Jesuit stronghold guarded by soldiers, just so you couldn't read it.

>in before "I'm not that guy, I'm just arguing his point"

Also

>illegal contraband
>Consequently, manuscripts of the Wycliffe Bible, which when inscribed with a date always purport to precede 1409, the date of the ban, circulated freely and were widely used by clergy and laity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wycliffe's_Bible

Thomas fucking More had a copy.

>>2020669
>>in before "I'm not that guy, I'm just arguing his point"
Niether. That guy is retarded, but the papists attempted to eradicate the bible
>circulated freely
Part of the reason the ban happened
>Thomas fucking More had a copy.
He supported the burning of anyone speaking the Lord's prayer in English, rather than Latin. If he had a copy, it was to give an example of it to the inquisitors.

>>2020114
fpbp

>>2020189

>Implying protestantism was ever about religion instead of politic

Protestants are the useful idiots of the State.

Lutheran reasons for opposing monasticism can be found in the Augsburg Confession as well as the Defense of the Augsburg Confession

http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article27

http://bookofconcord.org/defense_24_vows.php

>>2020539
>then why did Rome ban vernacular bibles

Because lost in translation. The more something gets translated the more of its meaning is lost. The church was well aware that the latin bible had been translated from hebrew to greek to latin and that any further translations would likely be garbage

>>2021686
>The word of god cannot be the word of god if it is translated, unless I say so
>t Pope

>>2021596
Shouldn't you be worshipping the infallible Argentine communist?

>>2021686
So because translation of translation dilutes text anyone with a bible they can read should be burned with their bible?

>>2021686
>and that any further translations would likely be garbage

So why not allow translations from the original languages? You know, as was done with the KJV.

>>2021840
To what end? What is the benefit of vernacular Bibles that offsets the risks of heresies like Catharism and the immense effort of having to authorise not one, but possibly hundreds of versions of the Bible?

The Church is explicitly tasked with *teaching*, not handing out textbooks so people can teach themselves.

Being a monk becomes boring after your not getting killed by inquisitors for every new "heretic" invention anymore

>>2022645
>The Church is explicitly tasked with *teaching*, not handing out textbooks so people can teach themselves.
Funny how a late portion of what they teach is found nowhere in the "textbook", and much of what they DO teach is completely incompatible with the actual words contained within.

Call no father on the earth, make no heaven images of anything in heaven above, below the earth, or below the waters under the earth, pray privately and quietly, don't advertise your charity, etc etc. But you probably don't care about all that stuff. Most Catholics don't.

>>2022645
If you'd do that youd get different text than the Latin bible, making life harder for the church

>>2023340
>Call no father on the earth
Yes, please tell me more about how vast multitudes of the human race are now doomed because they acknowledge their biological progenitor by the label of Father.

Because there is no point of them, they are just places to store wealth for jews.

>>2022645
>Catharism
Cathars were Gnostics who rejected every book
>The Church is explicitly tasked with *teaching*, not handing out textbooks so people can teach themselves.
The church teaches error, the only way to correct it is scripture

>>2024032
It's obviously saying call no religious figure "father" because God alone is your spiritual father
Nice attempt to argue against listening to scripture, though

>>2024494
The next verse states you shouldn't call anyone master or teacher either.
Good job pulling a 11th Commandment to be universally applied to all Christians out your ass by the way.

>>2020486
>Low literacy in any language
>Extremely expensive in wealth and manhours to create a bible
Wow, there must be a Catholic plot to prevent average people from driving BMWs

>>2020098

The state wanted to be the church as well and grabbed the monastic lands and works. It was a sort of confiscation.

Besides, the monastic movement comes from the hermit tradition, living a full or relatively separated life from the mundane in search for spirituality and so on.

It obviously doesn't match with protestant materialism and statist orientation.

>>2026864
>papists
>believing the bible
>>2026930
They literally outlawed it, you fucking retard

>>2026971
(You)

>>2020098
They were vile normies.

Because Jesus told us to go into the world and spread the Gospel, not hide from the world.

>this thread

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 "You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him"

Keep believing the lies of the Pope and his cabal of child molesters, heretics.