Why are the Aztecs so interesting, /his/?

>>1950913
Those are some shit tier aesthetics. Please tell me they didn't actually wear that.

>>1950955
Have you even read about their wars? It literally LARPing roleplay cosplay except with actual death.

They were really good at some things, and terrible at others. As an example, their society was very just. Nobles had special privileges, like being able to own two-story houses, but if a noble commited a crime, they would have a much harsher punishment than a commoner. This meant nobles were generally much nicer than europeans.

They also had a pretty good bureaucracy, with clean, efficient cities and exact tribute lists.

But on the other hand, their religion was so shitty they had to constantly piss off all their neighbors to prevent the end of the world. And their technology was really crappy too, although given the area they lived in there wasn't much they could do about that.

>>1950913
I don't know about you or others. I find them (and the Egyptian, and the Babylonian) interesting because they had great potentiality. I like to imagine a possible worlds where Egyptian and Aztec civilizations developed and reached the Industrial Age. What kind of clothes, technologies, architecture would they have? But that's just me. Call me a faggot if you will, I don't mind. I'd like to see how far they would have gotten on their own.

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>>1950955
if only the feathers and attires could be depicted as beautiful as they are

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>>1951093

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>>1951003
you're not alone pal

>>1950970
Nobles also had to participate in Flower Wars through the whole year while commoners only participated during the winter, when they weren't required to cultivate.
Kinda reminds me to knights and jousting.

the most depressing event in history imo is the spanish destruction of aztec libraries.

>>1951287
destruction of any historic texts is a sad event

>>1951292
yeah ofc, that one just hits hard in particular because they were so remote and so different. they could have been a third major source of society and culture if things had gone differently.

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>>1951287
>Aztec scholars will never explain what in the world did they mean by this

>>1951344
everything is shit and therefore must speak shit?

>>1951344
Maybe that every living thing shares the same blood or something? I dunno. Pictographic images are hard for someone not versed in the to decipher

>>1951248
How deadly were Flower Wars? Could one reasonably expect to survive and how did enemy combatants take the whole idea?

They're cool because they're a civilization that was built without the cultural interchange that Old World civilizations had. Same thing with the Inca.

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They were very apreciative of nature, having gardens, aviaries and zoos and even human zoos with people with deformities.

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>>1951003
interesting thought. Given time they could adapt to european technology and mix it with their own.

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DAMN
"Some codices highlight the bad treatment that indigenous communities experienced at the hands of Spanish enconmenderos (landowners who received tribute from local communities in exchange for conversion to Catholicism and instruction in Spanish). For example, here is a page from the Codex Kingsborough, a document supporting a legal dispute between the Indians of Tepelaoztoc and Don Válezquez de Salazar. You can see from this page that the indigenous people experienced harsh treatment at the hands of the Spanish. Here, they are being burned alive for not delivering tribute on time!"

>>1951457

Different anon here, but flower wars were typically fought between 200 or 400 combatants and they typically were fought by nobles who had obtained some status in war.

According to Ross Hassig, captives taken in flower wars were sometimes released. The objective was taking captives, so killing was typically avoided. The wars often escalated however, and captives would then be sacrificed.

It was a way to justify war. If you didnt want to mount a full war effort, flower wars were a way to maintain low level conflict which could be gradually escalated into a war of conquest when adequate war preperations were made.

As for your rate of survival, that depended on whether or not the emperor chose to escalate the conflict. Lord knows I wouldnt want to do it. Just give me a bow and let me be an auxiliary in the back lines...

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>>1951473
not sure m9, there's something very distinctive about the way they saw life

>>1951344
"Do not put poison darts into your urethra no matter how kinky you feel"

Seriously though I would guess that it might denote what does and does not belong to the gods. Holy at the top, prey/food behind and larger or predatory animals in line with but below the man. The skull divided into cranium and jaw seems significant.

>>1951749
Velázquez*

>>1951344
It's to do with the calendar. This is from the codex Ferjevary Mayer depicting the Smoking Mirror (Tezcatlipoca). The symbols you see around him are day signs (20 in total), and the dots represent the 13 numbered days that run parallel to the day signs. Totalling a calendar cycle of 260 days (20x13). I can get back to you in a bit if the threads still alive, to explain in further I need to head out first.

>>1952997
This depicts the three souls each human has.

>>1953615
I see the 3 souls but what do the two snakes represent?

>>1951749
What has this to do with the thread?

>>1952997
Regarding mesoamericans and peruvians:

>colorful and somewhat eerie aesthetics in textiles and painting
>trapezoids everywhere
>scary gods
>innovative terrace and river agriculture to compensate for lack of labor animals
>using black volcanic glass for blades and flint or jade weapons
>civilizations often had origins in fishing rather than nomadic pastoralism, with industrial agriculture preceding food crops
>aztecs had a brutal but also largely heterarchical governance maintained by fear rather than garrisons
>inca were totalitarian on a level seldom seen in premodern times
>cannibalism
>spiritual drug use
>hunchbacked priests and elaborately ritualized sacrifices that seem pointlessly violent to outsiders
>pictographs, ideographs and quipu over conventional alphabets
>isolated from trade with afro-eurasia
>seeming simultaneously savage and civilized
>fucking beast warriors

>>1950913
Probably because you are Mexican.

>>1955133
It may seem strange to outsiders, but it's not as exotic once you study them enough. I don't know enough about the Andeans to comment, but I can for Mesoamerica. That region surely was and still is in some places very interesting. Though I think the Aztecs and Maya (olmec to a lesser extent) largely overshadow other groups which were equally important: Bini'zaa (zapotec), ñusaavi (mixtec), hñahñu (otomi), huastec, totonac, purepecha (tarascans), teotihucan, tlatilco, izapa culture, xochipala to name a few. Also the west mexican shaft tomb cultures of Nayarit and Jalisco,

>>1951710
>Aztec
>Has a forged metal sword

>>1955141

I'm not mexican but I think they're cool too for this reason >>1951473

>>1955182
Not to mention its too beige looking. The city is supposed to be all white and the interiors with colorful murals.

>>1951710
>mix it with their own
Yeah, I'm sure sharp rocks and no wheels would have melded seamlessly with tempered steel.

>>1955182
it is hypothetical

>>1955133
>origins in fishing

>still never able to come up with anything bigger than a river canoe

>>1951756
>bow
Atlatl

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>>1950955

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>>1955214
just like the thousands of years of european hydraulic knowledge did, right?

>>1955238
Is it true Europeans taught natives how to make a bow? I knew that atlatl's were commonplace.

>>1955247
no wheel and thats an artist rendition there was no geographical knowledge or maps.

>>1955402
>And when we saw all those cities and villages built in the water, and other great towns on dry land, and that straight and level causeway leading to Mexico [i.e. Tenochtitlán], we were astounded. These great towns and cues [i.e., temples] and buildings rising from the water, all made of stone, seemed like an enchanted vision from the tale of Amadis. Indeed, some of our soldiers asked whether it was not all a dream. It is not surprising therefore that I should write in this vein. It was all so wonderful that I do not know how to describe this first glimpse of things never heard of, seen or dreamed of before.
-Bernal Díaz del Castillo

>They agreed to work at it viribus et posse, and began at once to divide the task between them, and I must say that they worked so hard, and with such good will, that in less than four days they constructed a fine bridge, over which the whole of the men and horses passed. So solidly built it was, that I have no doubt it will stand for upwards of ten years without breaking —unless it is burnt down — being formed by upwards of one thousand beams, the smallest of which was as thick round as a man's body, and measured nine or ten fathoms in length, without counting a great quantity of lighter timber that was used as planks. And I can assure your Majesty that I do not believe there is a man in existence capable of explaining in a satisfactory manner the dexterity which these lords of Tenochtitlan, and the Indians under them, displayed in constructing the said bridge: I can only sav that it is the most wonderful thing that ever was seen.
- Cortes to Charles V

>>1950913
I'm trying to get into Aztec mythology and religion, and it's like drinking from a fire hose.

I haven't had it this bad since I tried to grapple with Indian Religion.

>>1953615
> the three souls each human has.
Desire to know more intensifies.

>>1955402
that artist rendition is a bit small, it doesn't capture the real size of tenochtitlan.
>>1955382
No Aztecs were familiar with the bow already they just favored atlatls. Bows were seen by the Aztec as a more savage tool of hunters, ironically many of their enemies who employed bows gave them a lot of trouble at war. The best bowmen of Mesoamerica were the Chichimecs, one account had 4 of them hold down and chase away 50 Indian auxilliaries sent by the Conquistadors. Spaniards had to go into their territory when they waged war on them with heavily armored cavalry and this still didnt prevent them from getting hit. Another account says that if a Chichimec shot and hit a man from a distance in between the eyes it was considered a bad shot, because he was aiming for one of the eyes. The Spaniards were ultimately unable to beat them militarily.

>>1955545
what are you struggling with anon?

>>1955555
First, nice quints. Second, I'm having trouble first of all because I don't have good sources, so any help on that front would be great.

Other than that though, it's so BIG. I'm not grasping much meaning and significance yet, but I get there's a lot that's being pointed at that I'm not picking up on. Layers of symbolism and meaning, tied into layers and symbolism and meaning. I try to read a myth, and it makes reference to figures and ideas that should have some significance, and I either have to look it up, or I can't (which happens disappointingly often).

The biggest thing I'm missing is tying it all together. If anyone could paint a picture of the central drama, the weltanschauung of the Aztec mythology, that would help a lot.

>>1950913
They were fucking savages that were massacred and fought the euros in animal skins.

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>>1955553
The Chichimec sound badass.

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>>1955555

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gonna post a few artifacts

>>1950961
>It literally like playing pretend but for real

>>1951702

Any more pics like that? Or the whole book?

>>1955222
>there arrived at that time a canoe long as a galley and eight feet [2.5m] wide, made of a single tree trunk like the other Indian canoes; it was freighted with merchandise from the western regions around New Spain. Amidships it had a palm-leaf awning like that which the Venetian gondolas carry; this gave complete protection against the rain and waves. Under this awning were the children and women and all the baggage and merchandise. There were twenty-five paddlers.

>this handsome dugout or canoe was 95 palmos length, made of a single timber; and in it 150 persons would fit and navigate

>In all the islands they have many canoas resembling rowing fustas some smaller and some larger, and many are larger than a fusta of I8 oar-banks. They are not so wide because they are made of a single log, but a fusta could not keep up in rowing because they go faster than one can believe and in these they navigate to all those islands, which are innumerable, and carry their merchandise.

-Columbus

>>1951749
Fuckers shoulda paid the tribute

>>1955607
oh boy this is some heavy level retardation
they didn't really fight the euro's at all for starters

>>1955576
Nahua religion is concerned with three major fundamentals: Equilibrium, Duality and Fluidity. To understand this

>Teotl is creation, in the beginning there is no 'nothingness' or 'chaos' that needed to be ordered.
>Teotl is not outside of creation, it always was, and just is.
>It is the only thing that reality is made of.
>Creation came from teotl, so everything is made up of teotl.
>Everything is just an aspect of toetl, because teotl is to be understood as a process, a state of change, a state of becoming.
>Everything is a big cycle of construction, deconstruction, becoming something else.
>Everything exists only in a temporary state, which is subject to decay and become part of something else.
>Teotl is a process. Teotl is not a state of being, it is a state of becoming.

The 'gods' are defined as being a kaelidoscope of creation, such as water, the sun, the wind etc. it is all defined by what it does and how it does it. Its particular process, its effect and co-relation between the happenings of all other things. Therefore, they are not different from creation or outside of creation, they are creation and we are all simply aspects of creation, or teotl. This is made explicit in the Aztec sun myth where all the 'gods' have to sacrifice a bit of their own blood for humanity. We have a bit of them all in us so to speak.

>>1956749
Cont'd

Teotl is also amoral. There is no realisation of good and evil because it just doesn't exist. Destruction and creation are just processes that happen and humans like the rest of creation are affected by it. There is no morality in the changing of the seasons, in the same way as there is no morality in teotl. Whether the outcome is fortunate or unfortunate is just pot luck. It's nothing personal. There are no grand intentions of goals, they have no freewill, emotions, omniscient intellect, they are not all powerful. They are part of the same process, a process that happens regardless. They are energy in motion. This is why despite duality being a crucial part of Nahua thinking, a good and evil duality doesn't exist.

The deities are just anthropomorphised representations of these aspects of teotl. And what's more, there is absolutely nothing supernatural. It's all natural. Certain things may be hidden from human perception under ordinary conditions, but there is still nothing supernatural about it. It's all made up of the same stuff pretty much.

>Everything is sacred and nothing is profane.
>Teotl is not limited to being in only a single era, or in a single person, or single tree.
>When we talk about the different layers of the cosmos, this is not a hierachy, but they are folds, like the folds of a blanket, but it still consists of the same 'stuff' and none is truly 'higher' or 'lower' than any other in the plane of existence.

>>1956776
take this (you) and fuck off.

>>1956750
Cont'd

As for the myths we can begin by looking at the various teotl or for practicalities sake we will call them 'deities'. Among the most important to the Aztecs are Tezcatlipoca who is a trickster, sorcerer, and often associated with chaos, war, sacrifice, sexuality. Some of his other aspects are Tepeyollotl who a jaguar who causes earthquakes, Huehuecoyotl who is a hypersexualized coyote related to dance, the arts and music. There are also four Tezcatlipocas, represented as four aspects related to the four different directions. The number four is also associated with the sun, which Tezcatlipoca was said to have been once. The world has 5 eras or suns, we are living in the fifth one, which is the most ripe. Just as you have four directions, there is always one more, the center, which accounts for the fifth era.
Which also means the deities messed up in the past: Tezcatlipocas sun was black, and the humans of that era were giants who ate acorns, were wiped out by Tezcatlipoca himself after Tezcatlipoca the white, his brother Quetzalcoatl (the Plumed Serpent) knocked him out as the sun. Next came Quetzalcoatl's Sun, he ruled gently over the humans, so much so that humans didn't bother worshipping him. So Tezcatlipoca turned the less civilized humans into monkeys. Quetzalcoatl loved his creations and was angry Tezcatlipoca did this and blew them all away. He stepped down as the Sun and a new race of humans was needed. So came Tlaloc, the lord of rains and the misty paradise Tlalocan, became the Sun. Things went ok until his wife Xochiquetzal (Precious Flower woman associated with the arts, sexuality, youthful beauty, war and luxury) was seduced by Tezcatlipoca. Tlaloc kicked Tezcatlipoca down his mountain palace and was so depressed over the infidelity he let the world endure drought. The Gods begged him to bring some rain back and he was so irritated by their requests he made it rain fire destroying the world a third time.

Tlaloc remarried with Chalchiuhtlicue (related to fresh waters, fertility and beauty) and she became the fourth Sun. She initially did well like Tlaloc did, however Tezcatlipoca whispered rumors to her that humans didn't really like her and only pretended to worship her. She was upset to hear this she cried rivers of tears that eventually flooded the world turning many into fishes. So the world was in darkness again. The gods held a meeting and asked someone to volunteer to be the next sun. Nanahuatzin (a syphilus filled poor cripple, who practiced sorcery but had a good heart) volunteered, as did Tecciztecatl (Son of Tlaloc and Chalchiuhtlicue who was by contrast very handsome, arrogant and spoiled). The two made offerings in the temple and went to be sacrificed in the Gods oven, a large fire. Tecciztecatl chickened out, and so Nanahuatzin went into the fire, Tecciztecatl not wanting to be outdone did so too. The two after sacrificing themselves became the Sun (Nanahuatzin), and Tecciztecatl became another sun. This was too much, so Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli (Venus) flung a rabbit at Tecciztecatl and dimmed his brightness considerably becoming the moon. Nanahuatzin became Tonatiuh (the Sun) and Tecciztecatl, Meztli (the Moon). To get Tonatiuh to move, he required blood for energy which the deities sacrificed a little of their own.

>>1956914
Note: there's other myths of the Sun and Moon in which Nanahuatzin was replaced by Huitzilopochtli and Tecciztecatl, was Coyolxuaqui. This myth is very different but Huitzilopochtli was a rather obscure deity but was patron of the Mexica. When the Mexica became dominant they made him the new Sun, and so this myth came to prominence.

There are still other myths such as Quetzalcoatls love affair with the human turned plant deity Mayahuel, a woman whose breast milk was the alcoholic milky pulque. Her sometimes 400 (a euphemism for 'countless') breasts fed her rabbit children.

In some myths Xochiquetzal was married to Piltzintecuhtli who was also associated with the Sun. There's also one about a bat biting Xochiquetzal vagina whose blood spawned flowers.

Another features the creation of the earth, by Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca teaming up and slaying a monstrous crocodile (this is why Tezcatlipoca sometimes has a missing foot that was bitten off this earth monster). The Earth Monster's carcass became the terrain which makes up our world. Mountain ridges for instance are the ridges of her back. To please her pain, she is offered blood and she devours humans ultimately, as their tombs are in the earth.

There's so many others and yes they contradict each other often, at times this is because they come from different regions, but also because there is so much which overlaps. Deities often share, are aspects of each other, dual opposites, related, married etc. This is why you cannot put these deities into neat organized categories.

Reminder that the Aztecs already wiped out the glorious, beautiful civilization that actually built Tenochtitlan. They were heart-carving savages who killed all the intellectual city-dwelling tribals to please god on their own with their retarded and ridiculous blood religion.

>>1956922
Tenochtitlam != Teotihuacan

retard

>>1955552
Well there are three souls, one in the head (Tonalli) which is also curiously the word for day. The Tonalli is basically what are destiny is, it follows us after death. It is also associated with dreams and is the only one which we need to live. Humans can afford to lose a soul, but it is not recommended as it can make one ill. The tonalli can also be captured and utilized to empower the destiny of a community, by literally having their heads in the city (skullrack). Note, the Aztecs were not alone in having skullracks, the Maya did too. The other soul is the Teyolia which resides in the heart. This is our rational self, where our intelligence, our mind if you will.

The ihiyotl soul resides in our liver, and it is where our passions, emotions (love/hate), instincts are, our 'gut feelings'. This is probably the most vulnerable one and prone to outside attack by spirits. Spirits attack the soul by entering us in our joints (a strong nexus 'portal' you can say where things go in and out) or even just the pours of our skin. Once it takes over, the bad airs that entered our body can make us sick, physicially and mentally. A good sorcerer/healer has the ability to drive away this bad airs with a combination of medicinal herbs,plants.organic ingredients (depending on the illness cold or hot plants are prescribed) and chants and prayers. They also can broker a deal with the spirit residing in the body and use him as a guardian against other things which might threaten ourselves.

>>1951344
>doot doot

>>1953615
I want to add to my post also that the arm that Tezcatlipoca holds is that of a dead woman who died in childbirth.
>>1953659
Hm not sure I could check that out.

>>1957064
*died giving childbrith

They look like punk rockers

>>1951003
just play Civilization

>>1955671
>aztecs invented googly eyes

already more contributions to society than negros

>>1951096
Would bang her so hard.

>>1955133

They mirror the neolithic and bronze age of the Old World, a time of god-kings, monumental architecture, bureaucrats and barbarians.

>>1956916
That was super cool. Like Morrowind but for real.

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>>1957112
they were certainly ahead of their time

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>>1955536
Is great to read from the eyewitnes, they were in awe. Wish I could see Tenochtitlan.

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>>1957723
>CAN'T WAKE UP

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>>1958963
Man they had some nice fashion

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>>1958969

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>>1958971
Based angus mcbride, I'll miss his art.

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>>1958976

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>>1958979
funeral rites of the Aztecs

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>>1958986

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>>1958969
agreed

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>>1958988
Quetzalcoatls exile east.

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>>1950970
>they had to constantly piss off all their neighbors to prevent the end of the world

Are you saying you would take a chance!?

>>1959023
There's a theory I read once, that they wanted to create a paradise on Earth but needed to conquer the world first.

>>1956916
This was cool as fuck.
Thanks anon. In a mountain of shitposts, one really can find gold in its rivers.

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>>1950970

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>>1955552
About to ask this

>>1957021
So it's basically like Pierre Weil's human Sphinx. Neat.

>>1951287
Reminded me of that time people destroyed libraries of historical content (in Alexandria, I think) during the Dark Ages.

That was pretty depressing too.

>>1953615
Superego, ego and id?

>>1958963
>>1957794
>>1955656
It's incredible how such primitive reatures could such things, they probably didn't even have a language from what I hear but they built a society, I think Minoans were like them before getting invaded by Greeks, it's like the stage before actual civilization

>>1955713
Yeah, the flower wars were basically arranged wars where the main objective was to get prisoners. Also dick waving.

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>>1950961
Same with ancient phalanx warfare
>general 1: Summer's in you motherfucker, wanna brawl?
>general 2: I'll fuck you up breh, where do we fight?
>This valley looks nice.
>Nah too many trees and the terrain is uneven in the southwest
>How about this one?
>Yep, a'igth see you there
>phalanxes walk towards eachother to push the enemy until they give up.

>>1960366
End yourself.

>>1960405
A savage warrior culture of death disguised as a civilization, the Greeks were despotic and opressed their women to no end, they couldn't even leave their houses and were seen as inferior

>>1957021
>bad airs
AHHHHHJAJAJA Fuck Youuuuu, Mexica! It's because of you that my quecha-derived neighbors wear sweaters even in extreme heat!

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>>1961500

>>1950970
>This meant nobles were generally much nicer than europeans.
>Their rich literally ate their poor.

>>1958969
>loincloth over a skintight suit
r u serious bro

>>1961803
No they ate enemy warriors which were probably nobles too.

>>1951292
imagine there is a muslim library full of korans burned by US solders

still feel that way?

>>1961898
The koran is one book, these likely contained dozens of histories-geneologies, medicinal books, myths, hell probably legal stuff and glimpses into their philosophical worldviews too. Not to mention art and information on their neighbors.

Nice loaded question

>>1950970
>one class received harsher penalties for the same crime
>"their society was very just"
lol

I'm not saying this is a bad system, I can actually see how it could be conducive to a decent society, But it isn't just, by any definition.

>>1961898
what a dumb fucking post

are you american by any chance?

>>1960411
lol fuck off

>>1960405
t. Erdogan

>>1962162
Meant for this
>>1960411

>>1956922
Teotihuacanos had the same exact religion dumbass.

>>1960366
>they probably didn't even have a language
>they probably didn't even have a language
>>they probably didn't even have a language
>>>they probably didn't even have a language

>>1951344
Which codex is that from?

>>1962393
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
its the perfect bait honestly if it is bait

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>>1956749
>>1956750
>>1956911
Man, Aztecs were de-spooked af

>>1962429
Ferjevary Mayer.

>>1951096
RETURN THIS IMMEDIATELY

>>1962462
but the gods themselves are spooks

>>1961898

neck yourself

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>>1962550
this

>>1955732
>be so shitty your ships consist of a hollowed out log instead of proper shipbuilding

>>1960366

By what definition are the Minoans not na actual civilization? They had indoor plumbing and the script ffs

>>1951096
>>1957180
>>1962525
name is Paulina Okunyte.

>>1955671
>>1957723
kawaii desu ne~~

>>1951344
>>1953615
That is Tezcatlipoca. This image represents the 20 months of 13 days each that correspond to the tonalpohualli; that is, the calendar of 260 days that coexisted with the other 'standard' calendar of 365 days. The reason why this particular calendar exists in Mesoamerica is unknown: some associate it with the time of gestation of humans in the womb, or with the growth of maize, or simply atribute its existence to the sacredness of the numbers 13 and 20 in mesoamerican cultures. As you can notice, there are only 12 black dots attached to each of the 20 symbols that surround Tezcatlipoca: I suppose that in this specific image he himself represents the 13th black dot/day of all 20 months required to complete the cycle. Tezcatlipoca in particular was a tutelar deity of the tonalpohualli, which meant that in some specific cycles-of-260-days he was specially venerated/feared. I would also like you to notice the 20 symbols that surround him, since those are important to understand anything related to the Aztec culture (yes, that includes the Sun Stone): calli (house), cuetzpalin (lizard), coatl (snake), miquiztli (death), mazatl (deer), tochtli (rabbit), atl (water), itzcuintli (dog), ozomahtli (monkey), malinalli (grass), acatl (reed), ocelotl (jaguar), cuauhtli (eagle), cozcacuauhtli (vulture), ollin (movement), tecpatl (knife), quiyahuitl (rain) and xochitl (flower). Those are the names of the months, analogous to January, February, etc.
Along with Quetzalcoatl, he was the creator of the world. In order to attract Cipactli, the primigenial crocodile-monster which existed before all, he used his foot as a bait. When Cipactli arrived, she was captured by Quetzalcoatl and morphed to create earth and its living creatures. That's why there's a smoking mirror in his foot.

>>1951344
>>1953615>>1962966
He was called "smoking mirror" (that's what Tezcatl-ipoca means) for various reasons: because he used said mirror to cheat Quetzalcoatl of his kingdom (that mirror is attached to his foot in most representations; BTW some occultist lore says that John Dee got to use said mirror to communicate with angels! Now that's quite uncertain, but what I find particularly eery is its similarity with Mephistopheles/other demonic figures, which have both a horse-foot and a regular foot). It was also an archetypical figure of a 'dark-god', which meant he embodied the sacred, but sinister aspects that westerners commonly atribute to satanism. Aztecs weren't prejudiced about this (they didn't even have a word for 'evil': missioners had to invent the neologism 'ahmocualli' to indoctrinate them, which literally means 'not-good'), and also, these dark-gods usually have a 'positive' aspect to them: that of the 'generating/reviving-chaos'. In mythical thought, night is the mother of the day, so darkness, chaos and irrationality are required for the birth and survival of the world itself. Not casually, Tezcatlipoca was associated with the season of Toxcatl, or the burning of the fields of maize, performed around May, that prepared next year's sow (another cause of the 'smokiness' of his mirror?).

>>1961974
>just
>equitable
>fair

>dictionary

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>>1961500
>>1961503
Those battle-pajamas look pretty comfy.

>>1951344
Sauce?

>>1960411
I miss Carthage.

>>1962971
EDIT: Made stupid mistakes and forgot to mention some interesting things:

First: when I recalled the symbols surrounding Tezcatlipoca, I didn't mention the symbols of ehecatl (wind) and cipactli (lizard/primigenial matter). That completes the total of 20 symbols of the Aztec Months. Ehecatl is the one on the bottom left, BTW. Right next to him is rain (quiyahuitl), and then flower (xochitl). Those three are the most abstract symbols, in my opinion, but the rest of 'em should be pretty readable.

So now, what more could we say about this image? This: 2 streams of 12 dots seem to point directly towards Tezcatlipoca, and not to some specific symbol. That is until we see what they are really pointing to: the one on the left, that seems to join his elbow, in reality is pointing towards an obsidian blade, that seems to be placed on top of the god's heart (maybe an allusion to human sacrifice?). Anyway, that's tecpatl (knife). The other one comes from below: it's pointing to his penis. It's his acatl (reed) (BTW Aztec use of double-entendre when alluding to sexual matters is well documented. Ahuacatl, or avocado, could mean 'testicles'). So, those two must have been his sacred symbols in the aztec-calendaric business.

Now, we should remember that Tezcatlipoca was also considered the tutelar god of the cardinal directions, and so, his symbology further complicates depending on which point of the image/map he is standing on (even his color changes from his typical black to white, red and blue,I think).

So in this image, maybe he seems to be pointing to the left inferior quadrant (both streams of 12 doths that join him come from that direction), so maybe that has some more symbolic implications? Could be, but what Im' sure of is that this image was mainly a consecratory painting of Tezcatlipoca in his advocation of guardian god of the tonalpohualli. Maybe there's something else there, but it's impossible to know for now.

>>1963269
There's more.

So, he's eating... someone's... limb. Could be from the pregnant women, as it has been said previously, or it could be his own foot. It's basically a symbol of bloody destruction, which creates life (Tezcatlipoca could be analogous to a male Kali, if you think about ir).

And also... teonanacatl.

Teo-nanacatl is 'the meat of the gods'. That is, psychoactive drugs. It's interesting to think that EVERY Aztec god has 'meat': that is, that it can be accessed 'materially'. Now that is something Europeans couldn't really fathom at the time, even with the dogma of Transubstantiation and all. So, Tezcatlipoca had teonanacatl, but also Huitzilopochtli: it meant different drugs, different types of 'mystical experience'. Every shaman knew which 'god' (in reality, just an aspect of Teotl, as someone else accurately pointed out. The Aztecs even offered the Spaniards to place crucifixes in some corner of their temples, to be revered along OTHER aspects of divinity) could be accesed with a specific teonanacatl: peyote, psilocybin mushrooms, morning glory seeds, and maybe even ayahuasca. So, that could be an allusion to Tezcatlipoca's nanacatl, though we know little about such matters: it was basically a strong drug (if you're interested about this whole teonanacatl shit, research the god "Xochilpilli").

>>1963316
Lastly, I should tell how Tezcatlipoca cheated his brother Quetzalcoatl: may throw some lights, if you take into consideration how psychoactive drugs often lead to an 'unfoldment of the ego'.

So, Quetzalcóatl was king of Tula (there's Toltec ruins there, neat place) and he was the shit. He was the best king ever: he civilized the barbarous land, and made everyone of his subdits happy. Everyone was welcome in his palace, and nobody suffered disease, or hunger, or war. But it had its toil on the benevolous god. He was often tired, with no time to do his own thing.

So here comes Tezcatlipoca, who is jealous of his brother's kingdom and wants to see it fall. He goes and tell Quetzalcoatl exactly what was needed: he says "Brother, you're too tired! Relax! We'll throw some party".

And so they go and they throw the biggest party of all time. Naturally, Tezcatlipoca knew exactly what to pour on Quetzalcoatl's drink. And so the good king wakes 4, or 40 days later, and he's lying in bed with his sister. Enter Tezcatlipoca, with his smokey mirror, and he shows it to Quetzalcoatl's face. Seeing his own decrepit reflection, and the horrible crime he just commited, Quetzalcóatl decides to exile himself in the east.

It is said that he will return near the end of time.

>>1961898
destroying a copy of one of the most prolific books on the planet is completely different from destroying every copy of records from a civilization you've barely come into contact with.

I'm not advocating burning korans, burning any book is really only sensible if you're cold. But burning any number of korans in the modern world doesn't matter, because you can't possibly destroy the knowledge contained within it. Burning a library of a pre-columbian American culture, that's almost guaranteed to be an irreplaceable loss of many works.

>>1962054
go fuck yourself

I think everyone is just having a bit of a gaf at the autistic cascade of colours.

>>1962550
They aren't Gods per say. More like the polynesian concept of Mana.

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>>1951003
I read a short story about a theoretical Aztec space program in one of my grandpa's old sci-fi mags a while ago.

It was shit.

But yeah, I do love what few examples I can find of Aztec or mesoamerican-influenced modern architecture and aesthetics.

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>>1964361
We will never get to ride Plumed Serpent Monocylces in a Mesoamerica future city.

>>1956749
So Teotl is entropy?

Does anybody know the difference between Tlilhua and Ixtlilton? Was the latter more related to the medicinal use of ocote ink?

>>1956749
>>1956750
>all that pantheistic shit about teotl
I ran across a lot of claims like that when I was studied the Aztecs as an undergrad (had to take a LOT of Mesoamerican archaeology classes) and they always seemed like revisionist bullshit to me. I don't know if any of them ever linked to a single primary source.

Do you have a decent source on that stuff? I mean one that substantiates its claims, not "this guy said it in 1980 and made it sound like it was common knowledge."

I'm really asking, not trying to BLOW YOU THE FUCK OUT -- I'll honestly be thrilled if you provide one.

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>>1955182
>Book of Mormon

>>1966320
Those are basically the same thing: the main difference between the two terms is due to linguistics.

Tlil-hua is 'ink-substance', Ix-tlil-ton means 'staining-substance'. Tlilhua is a 'substantive' (big stretch of Nahuatl grammar here, but anyway). Ixtlilton is a 'substantive' too, but it's derived from a verb; and the difference between this words is akin to the difference between 'form' and 'morphed' (similar meaning, and 'morphed' is derived from the verb 'morph', while 'form' is just a common noun), if that makes some sense to you.

The key here is the morpheme -tlil-, which means 'to stain, to dye'. So we're basically looking at two members of the same word family in Nahuatl.

>>1951003
The idea that a neolithic civilization could last continuously into the industrial era alone puts this in the realm of pure fantasy.

>>1950970
>And their technology was really crappy
Not really. They lacked some specific things like bronze or the wheel, but beyond that they were plenty advanced.

>>1966597
Have you formally studied Nahuatl?

Or hell, even informally studied it -- you certainly seem to know what you're on about here.

I'm not trying to trap you, I've wanted to talk to a linguist about Nahuatl since undergrad.

>>1950913
Incans are better desu senpai

dem halberds
dat appreciation of whiteness

>>1966935
No, but I'm interested in it. Have two dictionaries, and what I know of its grammar is based on the introductions to them, and also wikipedia/internet. If you can get your hands on a dictionary, or better yet, a grammar, it should help a lot.

The most important thing to understand in Nahuatl is that everything is coded with a morpheme. A morpheme is, we would say, a part of a word with 'meaning', but that can be even smaller than a word. Like for instance in 'submarines'; we have 'sub-marine-s'. And so forth. Indoeuropean languages tend to have some morphemes, derived from affixes of location (sub, ultra, trans, over, etc.) and also the marks of plural, but Nahuatl is so based on morphemes codificating every aspect of language, that usually the order of words in its sentences is irrelevant; rather the correct order and nuance of its morpheme-combining properties in the process of building words is truly the key to understanding what is being said.

Example:

Ti-qui-m-itta-h

Ti, ('You') - qui, ('him') -m, (plural of 'him', so it means 'them' in conjunction) - itta, 'see' - n, (mark of plural; in combination with 'ti' at the beginning, it conveys the meaning of 'we')

We see them (I only need one word for this sentence).

Useful links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Nahuatl_grammar
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Classical_Nahuatl_morphemes

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>>1964415
someday, anon. someday

any more aztech pics?

>>1963137
>not maining warrior priest
its like you dont want sick magic hat

>>1958995
The Aztecs must've encountered Europeans/etc before the Spanish came to conquer.

>>1960411
>women seen as inferior

Where's the bad part?

>>1950913
are they?

>>1966597
Sorry man, I didn't quite catched it, does -tlil- changes depending on its place in the word?

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Did Tlatelolco control the network of merchant-spies of the empire or were the merchants independent?

>>1968118
>WE WUZ FEATHERED SERPENTZ AND SHIT

>>1968125
No femdom

>>1968784
Where can I read more about these Aztec jews?

>>1950913
>Why are the Aztecs so interesting
They aren't

>>1960411
So what's bad about this?

>>1968757

Not really, it still means 'ink/stain' in both words.

The situation here has to do with the ix- prefix, which combined makes 'ixtlil': and that does conveys the meaning of the verb 'to dye, to stain'. However, if -tlil- is on its own, it's just the basic morpheme for 'ink'.

So in 'ixtlil-on' we have a verb, that becomes again a substantive with the suffix 'on'. 'Tlil-hua' means just 'ink-substance'. As you can see, you can modify a pretty basic morpheme adding more elements to the word until it expresses what you want to say: a noun, a verb, an adjective, etc. But no, it doesn't change depending on its place in the word.

I will say though that morpheme-ordering laws are very important for Nahuatl in general, so even considering that morpheme-position doesn't modify meaning, you need to follow strict rules in order to not-fuck-up-and-sound-hilarious/be understood.

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>>1950913
>US says there's "Freedom of Religion"
>Don't allow me to sacrifice my Neighbor's children to Huitzilipochtli
Fucking Hypocrites

>>1969370
That's more Tlaloc's thing and its preferrably noble children. Perhaps your local mayors kids, or local senators children. Or if you really want the rains you can kidnap Baron Trump.

>>1969657
Noted