Can anyone explain Wahhabism to me and how it's relationship

>>1930545
1) It served the purpose of the House of Saud. So fuck the Wahhabs, they can go away now.
2) Keeps the neighbors weak.

t.b.h. Saudi Arabia is the most undeserving of being a hegemon. It sickens me that more sophisticated Arabs listen to people from one of the most backward, xenophobic countries in the planet.

>>1930545
>yet at the same time they are terrified of it on their own home turf.

Wahhabism is an integral part of the Saudi state.

It was created by a retard that had no grasp of what Islam was. His family thought he was insane and his brother who was a reputable scholar wrote a book explaining how retarded he was.

There first order of business was killing a bunch of Shia Muslims and destroying Muslim artifacts, such as the graves of the Prophet's family. Very islamic.

They altered the Quran removing verses that they accuse of idol worship of Muhammad.

The mourning of a lost loved one is shirk because you idolate them by mourning, and will be killed.

They literally teach that you if you kill a Shia (Muslim) you will eat lunch with the Prophet in paradise.

Apparently committing a sins makes you a kaffir and they kill/torture you. And they make up their own definitions of what sins are. In Saudi Arabia there's been whippings of people simply for playing card games.

Why Saudi and many Gulf countries teach this horrible innovation of Islam I have no idea. I'm pretty certain it's politically motivated.
http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahhabies/htm/spy1.htm

>>1930584
T.E Lawrence is pretty based though

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>>1930621
>implying pan arabism is a meme
DELET
THIS

>>1930677
I lived in Jordan for 3 years and it was the shittiest experience of my long, miserable life.

I appreciate you having a trip though, made it easier for the filter

>>1930572
>They altered the Quran removing verses that they accuse of idol worship of Muhammad.
So basically they treated the Quran like Mohammed treated the Bible?

Muslims always tell me it was created by the British to bring down the Ottoman Empire. They had spies all around the Muslim countries trying to find weaknesses in Islam. They would send women to subdue young Muslim men and fornicate with them. They'd have spies pretend to be Muslims and learn as much as they could. Some even converted and said fuck Britain.

Wahhabism was created by a spy feeding this young kid a bunch of misinformation about Islam, questioning everything making him think Shia Muslims were Pagans among other things.

How this spread to be what it is today I have no clue. Wahabbist books are banned from Islamic schools in most of the West, but is still taught in the Middle East, hence they're a fucking shithole. I have no clue if the story is even true. It's just what many Scholars and Imams tell me when I ask.

>>1930719
>They would send women to subdue young Muslim men and fornicate with them.
I believe that this may have not have been their goal, rather, that they were looking for military intelligence and the honey pot is one of the most common HUMINT tools.

>>1930723
They were basically race mixing. These women were Christian and would pretend to be Muslim marrying men and then slowly began swaying them against their beliefs.

The relationship between Wahhabism and the house of Saud started out as a political alliance between two nobodies - a petty Arabian princeling and a fringe scholar. Both needed each otherand neither of them would be capable of anything without the other.Bin Saud provided a small starting base and some prestige as a hereditary leader rooted in the fabric of Arabian clan society, while bin Abdul-Wahhab provided a convenient ideologythat could be used as a banner.

We should digress a bit by saying that in Islamic world political maneuveringswere, and still largelyare, disguised as religious movements. States were built around dynasties that were able to maintain their hold on power just as long as they were able to retain their legitimacy which stemmed from their piety. I know I am oversimplifying, but the main challenge to Islamic states came very often from religious reform movements that claimed that the rulers became decadent and steered away from religion. More than one Islamic dynasty was overthrown by such religious revolution.

Cont.

>>1930733
Cont.

The banner of religious reform provided by bin Wahhab gave bin Saud ability to punch way above his nominal weight. He was able to draw manpower from various dissatisfied groups that were always abundant among nomads and seminomads. Bin Wahhab's radicalism was doubling the numbers of available warriors. By labeling everyone else as idolaters, he made it legitimate to plunder them indiscriminately.

As we know, bin Saud's descendants managed, after several ebbs and flows, to succeed and build a state we now know as Saudi Arabia. This opened a new chapter of relationship between the Hause of Saud and the descendants of bin Wahhab. The latter are de facto the second ruling house of the state. They maintain almost interrupted hold on the country's most important religious offices and keep considerable influence on several ministries and other state organisations. The internal politics of the Saudi state are notoriously murky, but it is pretty safe to assume that the descendants of bin Wahhab play significant role.

It is conceivable that the Wahhabis might, in some undefined future, attempt to depose the Saudis. Their sway of religious offices makes them potentially extremely dangerous. It is no doubt then that the Saudi constantly bribe the Wahhabis with money, even more offices and state support of their mission to export their ideology. This had the unintended consequence of radicalizing lots of Muslims against the Saudis, including many at home.

This looks like someone throwing food to a giant snake in order to save himself from being eaten, while making the snake even bigger and more hungry. How big food supply do the Saudis have?

>>1930729
Purely the economics of this scenario makes me think it's Muslim anti-Colonial propaganda.

It was basically another plot by the Eternal Anglo to destabilize the Middle East, spread influence and acquire territory, and undermine the Ottoman Turks.

Hmm...
>>1930733
>>1930734
Makes a lot of cogent, well-argued points, but
>>1930740
is appealing to my anti-English bias.

>>1930740

/thread

/board

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Whenever I see a Saudi I ask if he's wahhabi/sulafi and if he says yes I spit in his face. They are cancer not only to Islam but to this world.

I wouldn't pretend to understand the many intricacies of mulsim infighting
One of my good buddies was born in Iran (assimilated to the US nicely) some of his family is shia and some of his family observes zoroastrianism as does my friend, but he claims to not be so religious

in his words "the sunnis are just butthurt" because they don't have a direct blood relation to Mohammed.
>I kek'd

>>1930657
>pan arabism
>not a meme
What do arab shitskins have in common with nordic mesopotamian and egyptian people?

>>1930774
>nordic
?

>>1930780
He probably meant people from the northern parts of mesopotamia.

Let's not turn this into wewuz.

>>1930774
The language
The religion
The culture (although not the same, but very very similar)

>>1930677
>client state
>tip-toeing around a land mine whose only purpose is to absorb human volatility (refugees) in exchange for outside funding
>wealthy still have slave labor in the form of sri lankans, ethiopians, etc
>proud of barely keeping your nose above water

why

>>1930680
Fuck you i visit my grandparents in jordan for a month of every year and that places is fun as fuck

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So this... is the power... of Wahhabism...

Anyway, Ibn Saud and Abdul Wahhab had an alliance. Abdul wanted to expand his "reform" and Ibn Saud wanted turf and money. The dream team started conquering their neighbors, till the Ottoman Caliphate put a stop to it. Thanks to a certain foreign power, the movement recovered and yada yada we have the modern puppet state known as Saudi Arabia.

>>1930733
>>1930734
Great post.

The Saudis export Wahhabism to keep it from building up in their own country.

The Saudi ruling family likes to travel to other countries and pay the local prostitutes to eat dog feces and similar things. They're pretty much manchildren.

And they support a movement/ideology/faction/sect/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-you-asspie that will gladly slaughter every last member of the House of Saud if the money ever stops.

>>1930545
Why does the anglo and its spiritual successor the US always ally with the most undesirable of partners?

>>1933071
Saudi's are Salafism, which is basically a political spin off of Wahhabism during the 20th century. It's still Wahhabism but they just changed the name for political purpose because Wahhabism has been hated on by Muslims since it's inception. Wahhabism rebranded itself as Salafism knowing it could not "spread in the modern Muslim world" as Wahhabism. They are exporting it to spread it, not to keep it out. They're basically the cause of all the civil wars, all the terrorist groups, and all the attacks like 9/11. And the west still gives them foreign aid. According to theorists, Wahhabism was created by the British ministry as a way to divide Islam and make them fight each other, making the Ottoman Empire weaker so they could fight. In Modern days it would still make sense that the UK and western allies would continue funding the growth of Wahhabi growth and terrorism. Kill off most of the Muslims, then sweep in and kill the rest including the Wahhabists and gain control of the Middle East and energy supply for most of the world. Also seems why Russia is opposed to helping the west because they had spies in the British Ministry and knew what was going on. That's why they are fighting the Wahhabists but have no problem with allowing Muslims in their country in general. They know Islam isn't bad, but the west's creation of Wahhabism is.

>>1930545
>Can anyone explain Wahhabism to me
It's a radical reactionary movement started by named agter it's founder Ibn Wahhab

>and how it's relationship with the House of Saud actually works?
The house of Saud gained power with the help of Wahabbis. Wahabbis have the power to fuck KSA up big time so KSA bribes them with positions in education and the justice system, as well as sending them abroad.

The Saudi monarchy themselves are not the biggest fans of Islamism from an ideological standpoint, given the fact that they are decadent billionaires. Qatar are the real cunts in this instance, and Turkey to a lesser extent.

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Saudis did nothing wrong.

>>1933171
>oil

>no resources at all

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>>1933187
Venezuela has oil too. Look what they did with it with their precious socialism of the 21st century, which was supported by every single intellectual in Western Europe and Latin America.

>>1933171
Except wahabs build shit out of some need to fucking show off.

Commies are more utilitarian. Sure China does that as well, but a good number of their projects actually does something more than just the worthless need to show off.

>>1930733
>>1930734
This sounds like the sort of scenario that would make one attempt to dispose of the other long ago

>>1933201
>China.
>Commies.
China ended gommienism for the same reasons as to what is happening in Penisuela right now.

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>>1933191

It was supported because people thought they were going to implement socialism. They didn't. It's state capitalism.

This really isn't that hard.

>>1933226
I was under the impression it was just Chavez and Maduro doing Populism - Native American Edition while robbing everything not nailed down and on fire at the time
t. huehuehue

>>1933226
>>1933238
I'm old enough to remember 2006 and intellectuals like Noam Chomsky and Tariq Ali singing praises to Hugo Chávez.

It was considered socialism when it was going "well". It's not surprising that now that everything went to shit, they pretend they never supported it in the first place, and that it was just "state capitalism".

>>1933171
>HDI means everything

>>1930545
Imagine if the US gave Jehovah's Witnesses their own country.

>>1933259
Well, they did give Mormons their own state, and it turned out quite fine.

>>1933269
Mormons are like Sikhs. They're so divergant from Christianity that they can't be considered a part of it.

Wahhabi's are Ultra-conservative and take a very literal approach to the Koran.

>>1930545
Those who ride a tiger, and all that.

>>1933171
Such a relevant comparison

>>1930545
MUSLIM PROTESTANTISM

>>1933247
Maybe it had elements of both and could have gone either way.

Salafism=/=Wahhabism

Salafism is pure Islam. Wahhabism is pro-Saud bs

>>1933548
Salafism is wahhabism. The scholars and schools all teach from writings of older wahhabist scholars. Salafism is wahhabism. Not all wahhabism is salfism

>>1933548
Salafism and Wahabbism are the same thing. All wahabbists will call themselves salafists. They see the term Wahabbist as an insult.

There is no such thing as """pure islam"""(tm)

>>1930545

I work for the government and have a fairly good grasp on Arab/Islamic culture.

From my understanding, the two are completely intertwined. For the House of Saud, they get a religious legitimacy afforded to them by the Wahhabi clerics. Think of the "Divine Right of Kings", that sort of deal. The clerics back up the family's divine right to the throne. In return, the royal family gives the Wahhabis funding and a voice in the government, so that they can increase their reach, even outside of Saudi Arabia.

Wahhabism isn't Islam. Technically they follow the Qur'an and certain hadith but they don't account for verses that go against their ideologies and consider them forgeries. They ignore the Islamic history of the caliphate after Muhammad such as Umar and Ali which Muslims base a lot of their ideology on as well. They consider Shia Muslims idolators and kill them and think Sunni Muslims that aren't wahhabists are no different than Christians and Jews.

You can't really call them Muslims. Itd be about the same analogy as calling Mormons and Christians the same group of people.

>>1930545
It's a power sharing game between the Al-Sauds and the Al-Sheikh (their patriarch founded Wahhabism).

>>1930719
I thought Wahhab/Salafi spread due to some Turk writing a book about "Western decadence and degeneracy"?

>>1933579
Are you american? Why do US politicians support Saudi Arabia instead of pursuing detente with Iran? Why are they such hypocrits?

>>1930545
Cardinal Richelieu funded protestants everywhere except in France, where he harshly repressed it. In stranger lands they were a useful bunch to weaken his enemies, but a threat to his power at home.

Now imagine if protestantism had it's origin in France and Richelieu owed his power to the protestants without being explicitly one of them or the leader of the movement. Those are just even more reasons to try to weaken them.

>>1933552
>>1933568
the term Salafi was used long before Wahhab

>>1930600
He was based in the sense of being a fearless man capable of anything, including physical self-sacrifice, in order to defend his dream.

His dream itself was in hindsight pretty shitty.

people try to discredit Salafis, Deobandis etc by bringing up Wahhab who was basically a heretic.

>>1933641
And the term democrat existed long before the democratic party

>>1930572
>They altered the Quran removing verses that they accuse of idol worship of Muhammad.
which verses?

>>1933672
How is it heretic when salafi schools in Saudi Arabia and other countries teach from wahhabist works such as Kitab at-Tawhid?

>>1933676
I don't know of them removing verses like he said but wahhab ignored context and teachings of scholars throughout Islamic history. He basically had an outsider approach and made up his own ideologies. There's tons of writings and fatwas issued over the lifetime of him telling Muslims that His school is kaffir. That's why wahhabists today find the term derogatory and prefer to he called salafi. But its no different.

>>1930733
>More than one Islamic dynasty was overthrown by such religious revolution.

this sentence makes it look like it haven't been that many to support the claim in the sentence before that. I'm not sure if it's my english that lacks or your writing. I assume you mean that many dynasties have been overthrown for these reasons but I'm not entirely sure. Thanks for the post though, it explains a lot in a concise and seemingly educated manner.

>>1930734
>This looks like someone throwing food to a giant snake in order to save himself from being eaten, while making the snake even bigger and more hungry. How big food supply do the Saudis have?

I like the metaphor, but I'll add that this person feeds the snake with other people, and mostly his own kin to make it worst.

>>1933676
The original qurans opening chapter that Muslims recite during prayer reads :Guide us to the straight path, / The path of those whom You have favored, / Not of those who have incurred Your wrath, / Nor of those who have gone astray.

The Wahhabi Koran renders these lines:Guide us to the Straight Way. / The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who have earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

The Wahhabi Koran prints this translation alongside the Arabic text, which contains no reference to either Jews or Christians.

Just an example.

>>1933676
The original verse 5:65 says of the Jews and Christians:If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is revealed to them from their Lord, they shall enjoy abundance.

The Wahhabi edition adds that, in addition to Jews' observing the Torah and Christians' the New Testament, both must accept the Koran--that is, become Muslims--which nowhere appears in the Arabic text and conflicts with traditional Islamic theology. Mainstream Islam treats the Torah, the New Testament, and the Koran as different books. Wahhabism, by contrast, treats the Jewish and Christian scriptures as primitive editions of the Islamic text.

>>1933124
Because the meme of the underdog being a good boy is almost always false. Yet you need to make the underdog powerful if you want the big boy to fall. And more often than not that's exactly what you want if you're trying to exercise world hegemony.

>>1933707
that's the Muhsin Khan translation

>>1933269
Because it's a meme that american states are comparable to countries. Specially fucking Utah.

>>1933699
More than one = many

>>1933699
It's happened often enough that Ibn Khaldun made it the basis of his historiography.

This is so interesting to read about.

These two guys actually came together to form an interesting alliance, both political and religious in order to legitimise the other and their dynasties remain today.

You've got to have some kind of admiration for such a feat.

Is there any more to this?

Wahhabism was formed by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab in the 18th century.

Unlike Sunni/Shia Islam which beliefs and practices are made mostly upon Hadiths and Sunna (narrations during the Prophet's time) and the Quran as confirmation,

Wahhab disagreed. He considered following the actions of Muhammad and his successors to be idolating. So he started making his own sect based upon the Quran alone and the teachings of a scholar Ibn Taymiyyah who was accused of anthropomorphism and insulting the Prophet. His ideology of Islam was criticized by every one, including his family. He had little followers and died leaving his book Al-Tawhid. Muhammad bin Saud married one of Wahhab's daughters and was a follower of Wahhabism. His successor, Abdul Aziz ibn Muhammad bin Saud, launched an attack on Hejaz in 1811. When Medina fell, the soldiers of tore down the sacred tombs belonging to Muhammad's friends and family and the residents of the city were killed. They practically killed a bunch of Muslims. They got BTFO by the Ottoman Empire when they heard about it. However, with the help of the British forces during a power vacuum, they reclaimed Hejaz and all of Arabia in 1918. In 1924 the Ottomans were exiled and the Saud family took over. Wahhabism was established as the official religion. Imams and Muslim judges belong to Wahhabism. They deemed it the Salafi Movement. Now, Wahhabism is spread through the press and education systems. Though it's called Salifsm, they're teachings come from the Al-Tawhid of Wahhab and the teachings of Ibn Taymiyyah that Wahhab followed.

Under conventional Islamic tradition, their beliefs and practices are contradictory and considered Innovators by the majority of Muslims. However to them and outsiders who also consider Islam to be the Quran and nothing else consider it pure Islam.

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>Islam is based on Hadiths and Sunna confirming the context of the Quran
>/pol/ fag studying to become scholar because family is scholars
>comes across books of a retarded scholar that thought the Quran doesn't need context and interpreted at this will
>scholar thinks following the prophet's narrations and the scholars and practices of the first caliphate was idol worshiping
>/pol/ fag sucks all this shit in believing it
>family of /pol/ fags were actual scholars and Islamic judges and thinks he's fucking retarded and lets the whole village know
>/pol/ fag is butthurt and runs away after Father dies
>goes village to village trying to spread his autism but mostly got ran out after getting fucked in ass by swords and spears
>ends up in village ruled by Muhammad ibn Saud that follows a false prophet Musaylimah instead of Muhammad
>village absorbs his autism and spreads it
>successor of Saud starts the Salafi Movement. It's the same teachings of retard scholar that /pol/ fag followed but changed the name of Wahhabism because it had a bad taste in the mouth among Muslims
>kill bunch of Muslims
>help west kill Ottoman Empire
>rewarded with Saudi Arabia

Wahhabism is literally autism. It was created by a faggot who believed in a retarded scholar and was spread by retards who previously believed in a false prophet.

>>1930572
>they altered the quran
Found the retard

>>1931103
>The language

Please, Arabic "dialects" are far more diverged than Romance languages. There are also several pidgin languages that are still labeled "Arabic" for political reasons.

>The religion

There are millions of Arab Christian and Druzes. Muslims are split between a myriad of Shia sects and various Sunni schools.


>The culture (although not the same, but very very similar)

There's few in common between an Arab from Marocco and a Gulf Arab. What they do have in common comes from Egyptian TV.

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>>1930657
>Impliying it isn't.

>>1930733
>>1930734
+1

>>1931711
Is this from Yemen Civil War?

>>1933624
It's a pride thing, which the U.S. should be over by now, but whatever.

We only have allies that insult us AFTER we're allied to them, not before. Also Iran, Russia, and China are all not afraid of calling the U.S. out on its imperial behavior, which makes the politicians angry in an "Ah! I've been found out! Shut it down!" sort of way and makes Americans angry because living in what they're told is a democracy makes it hard for them to distinguish between a people and their government, including in their case.

>>1934886
Not him, but I'd say it's less pride and more general ignorance leaving the administration vulnerable to special interests, plus bureaucratic momentum that's incredibly difficult to reverse once institutionalized. If our policies were strictly pragmatic then we'd have reached some kind of deal with the Iranians long ago. However the influence of Israeli and Saudi lobbying on top of important senators courting the Jewish-American and Iranian-American (i.e. refugees fleeing Iran's regime) vote. This was all set in motion decades ago, when Iran was attempting to gain regional hegemony over the Arab states by declaring itself Israel's biggest enemy and clashing with OPEC and the Ibn Sauds. Since then private energy and military contractors with some very powerful lobbies have worked their way into the Israeli and Saudi economies while the State department has geared itself towards diplomatic isolation of Iran, and just changing all of that overnight is next to impossible without mass coordination and popular will.

>>1930737
Same. Such a svenario is beyond retarded, not to mention doomed to failure and utterly undocumented, and it's just the sandnig variant of "we dindu nuffin"

>>1930572
Ignore everything this guy says.

>>1930545
Wahhabism was a Salafist reform movement started by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab to cleanse the central region of Saudi of perceived paganism in local religious life. There really is nothing that separates Wahhabi doctrine from Salafism.

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab wasn't well received by many tribes due to his extreme religious beliefs, but the Al Sa'ud tribe formed an alliance with him to give their tribe a religious mandate to subdue and "convert" the other tribes.

>>1935135
Nothing he said was wrong though. The Salfi Movement has been killing Shia Muslims up until even today. They are considered idol worshipers. Also any Sunni Muslim that doesn't convert Salifism is considered kaffir. No Shia or other Sunni sect follows these doctrines. And Salafis do punish for committing sins, unlike every other Islamic sect. Committing a sin is kaffir to them and people are flogged for it.

Everything he said was true besides altering the Quran. They interpret it very differently. Conventional Islam follows Hadith and Sunna confirmed by the Quran. Salifism interprets the Quran mostly without any context from Hadiths. They are pure Quranists but that isn't necessarily pure Islam. Pure Islam is arguably following the teachings of Muhammad, which inherently means using Hadith to confirm the context in the Quran as well as the practices of the first caliphate as they were close companions to Muhammad, and it wasn't until the 2nd caliph that the Quran was actually written and distributed.

>>1935146
Which is a contradiction because Wahhabism/Salafism consider the companions of Muhammad idolators because they asked for intercession and still practice to this day intercession from Muhammad. Yet Muhammad couldn't write and verbally reciting the Quran. Everything was written down in diaries and further ended up leading to the written Quran by the 2nd caliph. Yet all of these are idolaters, meaning they supposedly follow a religion that is against polytheism and idolators yet follow a book written by one. It's a paradox.

>>1935146
>Pure Islam is arguably following the teachings of Muhammad, which inherently means using Hadith to confirm the context in the Quran as well as the practices of the first caliphate as they were close companions to Muhammad
That's what the Mushin Khan translation does...

>>1930572
The mourning of a lost loved one is shirk because you idolate them by mourning, and will be killed.
A lot of Islamic militant groups make eulogy videos for member who have been killed. Would that mean they aren't Wahhabi? They also make reference to Hadith in their media publications.

>>1935954
meant to greentext that quote

>>1933808
They should make it a sitcom or comedy movie. Call it "Saud and Wahhab's excellent adventure".

>>1933878
So the meme that quranists are bros is just that, a meme?

Or for some reason they're different from wahhabist/salafists despite also folloing only the quran?

>>1934886
But saudis constantly shit on the USA and it's imperialism. America is the great Satan in Arabia just like in Iran, if not more.

>>1935996
If the sect doesn't allow jurisprudence and theology you can bet it's some autistic shit. Hanafi sect allows most jurisprudence and theology.

>>1936017
>>1935996
>>1933878

It's not that simple. Wahhabism isn't anti-Hadith at all, and in fact carry their literalism over into their application of the Hadith. The disagreement between other Sunnis and Wahhabis/Salafis comes down to their approach to the Quran and Sunnah and the styles of interpretation they prefer. They reject other Sunni jurisprudence and theology except their own, not jurisprudence and theology altogether.

Quranists are completely different.

>>1930719
Censorship is bad, except when we do it
t. West

>>1930545

>the Saudi fund the export of Wahhabism on a massive scale, yet at the same time they are terrified of it on their own home turf.

That's not a contradiction. They're terrified of it, so they export it, so it's no longer on their own home turf.

>>1936147
Wahhabism interprets the Quran at their own will. They came up with their own independent reasoning which was apostasy. Wahab was not a mujtahid. He was barely a student, yet decided to come up with his own doctrine.

Both Wahhabism and Salifism follow the teachings of Ibn Taymiyyah, who was very anti-Hadith. The Hadiths Wahhabists use are not the same Hadiths used by every other Muslim sect. They follow Hadiths from scholars directly related to the teachings of Muhammad and his companions, which ended in around the 9th century. Every Islamic belief and theory and law is based on scholars and practices from this era back to Muhammad. They don't just follow the Quran alone. They use it as confirmation.

Ibn Taymiyyah thought this was idolating. The was imprisoned many times for insulting the Prophet and his companions. He issued a fatwa leading to the invasion of another Muslim village simply because they didn't rule by Sharia Law. That village with allied with the Mongols so you likely know what that led up to. He never used Hadiths to confirm his doctrine because all of them that wrote Hadiths were idolators. The Quran came first. Anything that contradicted his own personal interpretation in a Hadith or Sunna was a lie.He created his own approved set of Hadiths and Sunna that Wahhabist/Salifsts follow. Most important was the Quran, and the sunnah or any other source could not abrogate a verse of the Qur'an. For him, an abrogation of a verse, known in Arabic as Naskh, was only possible through another verse in the Qur'an. Next was sunnah which other sources (besides the Quran) must not contradict.

They aren't anti-Hadith or Sunna. They just have it all backwards. They base their own personal interpretation of the meaning first and deny any Hadith or Sunna that says other wise calling it false and blasphemy. Any actual scholar that argues against them are called heretics and kaffir.

>>1936698
By they in the second paragraph, I meant the real Muslim sects, not Wahabism.

>>1936698
Protestants ruin everything, even Islam.

>>1936698
>He created his own approved set of Hadiths and Sunna that Wahhabist/Salifsts follow.
What Hadith?

>>1935996
Why would you ever think that the protestant literalist fundie strain of a religion might be your "bros"? Do you suck at pattern recognition?

>>1936993
Its something long and Arabic. Its his own collection of hadith that he considered real. Will look it up on YouTube of a scholar showing his ridiculous teachings to a group of people and they all start laughing.

>>1935996
Qur'anists just means they reject the hadith. They come in all shapes and sizes, from atheists in denial to literally ISIS.

The most well known group in western circles and the anglosphere internet leans towatds the former, who basically think less hadith and no Sunnah=less autistic rules. To be honest their reasoning is pretty solid, but I think they're generally either trying to hide the fact that they don't believe from their parents or even themselves.

>>1937435
Is there even any evidence of Saudis providing significant funding to presidential candidates? I mean at least 1% of a candidate's campaign funds, otherwise they would be trivial to ignore.

>>1937453
So, over the years, Saudi Arabia contributed "more than 10 millions" or twice as much as some "Lebanese-Nigerian developer" and "the son-in-law of a former Ukranian president" to a foundation that has $200 millions in revenue per year and does other things besides funding Clinton's campaign.
Not exactly playing kingmakers there.

>>1937463
By the way, Hillary's campaign has cost over $300 millions.

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I'm Muslim and I'm worried for my Sister. She has gotten into watching Salafi scholars on YouTube and they have brainwashed her. She goes around saying how she wishes she was a slave because she wouldn't have any rights and would be of the highest in paradise being a Muslim slave and stuff. She's been trying to talk our parents into letting her move to Qatar to "teach" for a few months.

How do I get her out of this cancer? Ever since this Wahabi shit has started, they've been killing other Muslims and instigating Civil Wars. They literally helped the west bring down the Ottoman Empire and now sit in their oil rich owned countries shitting on $250K gold toilets.

>>1937435
Nothing, because they put all their money into US debt instead, and if anything it wouldn't take more than ten minutes and a big ass check to get on Trump's good side.

>>1937524
Just teach her its history and make her realize its founder was a literal retard.

Also, post pics of her.

>>1937524
Hook her up with stories of girls stupid enough to travel to join ISIS.

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>>1937908
I can't find one but found a picture of you.

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If America/the West actually declares war on Iran, I am going to lose my fucking shit. Wahhabism was created by Britain (or more historically correct allied with) to help take down the Ottoman Empire. In return, this fake Muslim sect got control of Muslim holy land. This is all created to prevent Islam from becoming an empire again, because white people can't stand non-whites running shit. They are STILL funding Saudi and their terrorist groups and now want to go to war with Iran, which is a Shia country, which their terrorist friends have been killing for over 2 centuries.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but this shit is going too far. I can't stand Islam but wrecking their religion like this is worse than what Hitler did to the Jews. And nobody opens their eyes to see it. They just follow the propaganda. Islam bad Islam evil jidhadism radicalism believe me. Just sad. If you're a true Muslim, I feel sorry for your future.

>>1933226
>state capitalism
>state
lol

>>1938101
this. I actually like shias and Iran. They have nice stuff.
And they seem less retarded towards religious minorities(unles you are Baha'i, then fuck your heretical ass)

>>1933171
>designed by western architects and slave labor from the Indian subcontinent.
>funded by oilbux
So, this is the power of Islam.
Whoa.

>>1938112
Sunni Islam has good Muslims too, it's just so many are converting to the Wahhabi/Saudi Salafi bullshit. They have no idea they are signing up for genocide. I had a friend who was a good Sunni and then he started getting into this Salfi shit on the internet and it fucked his mind up big time. His family disowned him, but I'm glad he found his way back on the right path and didn't become a bomb for ISIS to kill a bunch of real Muslims. Within my lifetime, I expect to see a huge genocide of Muslims if people (especially Muslims) don't open their eyes and fight against Wahhabists. The fucking fact that they even apologize for their actions as if they're real Muslims make me sick. And then go on about religion of peace. Islam is a religion of social justice. So do it.

>>1931439
Jordan doesn't keep its nose above water because it has no water. And the won't take advantage of any natural water deposit they have so they don't upset Israel.

>>1934877
>civil war
>civil

>>1937524
She's fucked m8. Ideologues never snap out of it until it ends in tears. She's going to go to daesh and get raep'd.

>>1938101
That's the good thing about Trump winning. Europe will decouple itself from American policy, and we generally have good relations with Iran. I think there is a lot of room for cooperation.

>>1937524
Dude, convince her she should be your slave. I bet you could even get an imam to back you up if you explain the situation.

>>1935996
They aren't your bros. They're a bunch of confused liberal modernists who are one step away from atheism.

>>1938936
>confused liberal modernists
They're protestants

>>1938211
Trump himself will likely pursue detente with Iran against IS like he intends to do with Assad and Putin.

>>1939245
He's already said that he wants to scrap the deal and he's been pretty anti-Iran in his speeches with AIPAC. Of course that could be campaign shit, who knows, but his rhetoric has been anti-Iran.

>>1938936
>liberal modernists who are one step away from atheism.
sound like bros to me.

>>1938219
Why would an Imam back that up when it goes against Islam? Enslaving Muslims is forbidden. And the only way you can attain a slave is through prisoners of war or children of slaves.

>>1938124
>if people (especially Muslims) don't open their eyes and fight against Wahhabists

is there any chance of that EVER happening ? Saudi shits are doing a pretty good job at annihilating any potential factor that may lead to population's awareness.

>>1939405
This, and they have the west to back them up. At least Russia and China among other countries isn't being stupid and realize what the west is doing and has been doing for 2 centuries. Redneck hicks in America always talk about how we need to be like Russia and kill all the Muslims. Russia aren't killing Muslims. They are killing Saudi funded Wahabi terrorists killing Muslims. If they join the west, then it's all fucked.

>>1930688

The difference is there was no official 'Bible' in Muhammad's time and further the Qu'ran is an unaltered text from conception to present - something muslims are proud of and as far as textual documents go throughout history and how they are apt to change especially subjective interpretative ones like the Quran it's pretty impressive that it hasn't changed.

>>1930733
>political alliance between two nobodies - a petty Arabian princeling and a fringe scholar.

Sounds like the makings of a sitcom.

>>1939459
How do they know?

The Quran was orally transmitted and wasn't actually written down in the final Quran form until the 2nd caliph after his death. Do you know how many games of telephone was played before it was actually written?

I get it hasn't changed since it was first written, but how do you know it's the exact words transmitted decades earlier from Muhammad when it was all word of mouth? I think that is the sole reason why it's so subjective to living in the 7th century. Muhammad probably said something vague like those who steal should be punished and then as it got passed through word of mouth for decades before scholars sat down and wrote the Quran, it became so specific to that time period.

>>1930688
>So basically they treated the Quran like Mohammed treated the Bible?
Muhammad didn't say the Bible was altered to instill idol worship.

>>1939473
The Quran is not hadith. There were several scribes writing down the verses. It is noted there was an early ban on writing down anything but the Quran from the Prophet(a.s), so that the hadith had to be passed on orally and there is even a Quran that can be dated back to the time of the Prophet(a.s) to the time of the first Caliph, it probably belonged to Abu Bakr(r.a). I remeber hearing something about Umar(r.a) also having a Quran Also, a lot of people specialized themselves in memorizing the Quran, so that it could be protected from people trying to change it.

>>1939553
Not all of the Qur'an was written. During Bakr rulership he had the scholars and imams bring forth everybody who has memorized the Qur'an and they began writing. A lot of people was dying in battles and Umar was worried there would be no one left to memorize the Qur'an. It wasn't until the 2nd caliph that Umar confirmed these and the Qur'an we read today was finalized.

>>1937524
she needs a more general education on secular and Islamic topics. That lessens the threat of radicalization. It worked out fine for me.

>>1939574
still thousands of hafiz out there at that time.

>>1939473
>I get it hasn't changed since it was first written, but how do you know it's the exact words transmitted decades earlier from Muhammad when it was all word of mouth?


Actually, it has changed even if we completely disregard all theories that postulate later changes in the Quran, some of which are pretty solid. At the time of first caliphs the Arabic script didn't have any letters that represent vowel. Vowels were added into Quran much later and it was, for most part,a complete guesswork.

>>1939574
>It wasn't until the 2nd caliph that Umar confirmed these and the Qur'an we read today was finalized.

And the final version was so controversial that Umar was killed in a riot that ensued. This pretty much confirms that there were divergent versions of Quranic verses floating around mere decade after Muhammad's death.

>>1940686
Obviously it hasn't changed since if it did Allah would send another prophet to correct this.

QED infidels.

>>1940707
But Muhammad was the final prophet. Now you're contradicting yourself Mehmed

>>1940720
Precisely. Even then Allah knew that the Quran wouldn't be changed and as such there hasn't been a prophet since.

Do infidels even think before they speak?

>>1940722
So you're saying God wants us to live in the 7th century forever and the Quran wasn't paraphrased by a bunch of former idolators that were known for poetry and making up stories?

>>1940723
>So you're saying God wants us to live in the 7th century forever
No, if Allah wanted us to live in the 7th century we'd be living in the 7th century. Allah wants us to see his light and join him in paradise.

>Quran wasn't paraphrased by a bunch of former idolators that were known for poetry and making up stories?
Exactly. To cite the early proof if it was then Allah would send another prophet. But he hasn't and he knew he wouldn't need to.

>>1940722
Trying to be an apologist for you here. The Quran wasn't heavily distributed until centuries after Muhammad's death. The knowledge was kept with the caliphate and scholars and Imams who taught by word of mouth. Are you claiming these humans are as divine as Muhammad and wouldn't change a thing? And that God actually expected us to live in the 7th century moral and ethic codes forever?

>>1940730
>Are you claiming these humans are as divine as Muhammad and wouldn't change a thing?
No, I'm supporting the traditional thought that they were rightly guided by Allah's wisdom and didn't change a thing. Hence (among other things) why they're known as the Rashidun caliphs.

> And that God actually expected us to live in the 7th century moral and ethic codes forever?
They're not 7th century moral and ethic codes. The divine wisdom of the Quran is eternal and just as appropriate for today as it was in the time of Adam.

>>1940733
You're implying the very first humans had swords to cut off people's hands and that anybody who questions you is a heretic and should be killed?

>>1940738
>You're implying the very first humans had swords to cut off people's hands
Yes. Cutting devices in some form or another have also existed since the time of Adam.

>that anybody who questions you is a heretic and should be killed?
It depends. Death is certainly the punishment for some theological matters but what exactly constitutes blasphemy and whether death is the suitable punishment can vary.

>>1940742
So these people were actually divine to you and didn't make things up and play God themselves handing out punishments?

What is your opinion on Salfists flogging people for sinning? Do you think they're taking the whole God LARPing way too seriously?

>>1940744
>So these people were actually divine to you and didn't make things up and play God themselves handing out punishments?
Absolutely.

>What is your opinion on Salfists flogging people for sinning?
I think that there are some sins for which flogging is an appropriate punishment.

>Do you think they're taking the whole God LARPing way too seriously?
I wouldn't call them LARPers, that's disrespectful as they're just as much a part of the Ummah as the most righteous among us. But nonetheless a lot of people do let their zeal cloud their judgement.

>>1940748
They aren't even Muslim. They were created by the west to kill Muslims and followed a fake prophet prior. They never have been Muslim.

>>1940751
That's not their fault. They want to be good righteous Muslims.

The fact that wicked people capitalize on the ignorance of others for their own gains is a great injustice but they're still my brothers.

>>1940753
Calling people that kill innocent Muslims, journalists, doctors, etc. your Brothers is a scary road to go down. I just hope somebody in your family is righteous and will intercede for you.

>>1940756
All Muslims are my brothers, even the sinful ones. I just hope that they may one day repent.

We shouldn't abandon people for being wicked. Just as Allah doesn't abandon us for our wickedness.

>>1940707
>Obviously it hasn't changed since if it did Allah would send another prophet to correct this.
>QED infidels.


Then who was Bahá'u'lláh?

Checkmate.

>>1940758
They aren't Muslims though. They went from following a false prophet to killing Muslims following a religious sect created by Christians. They were never on the right path to stray from.

>>1940764
They're trying to be righteous. They follow what they think is the good path of Islam. And like with many others who follow dodgy forms of Islam if they truly want to embrace Allah in their heart they'll find their way.

>>1940767
They are not following the good path of Islam. The good path of Islam would be to follow Muhammad and the practices of the Rashidun Caliphate. Not interpreting it as you wish, calling of them idolators, and claiming Muhammad didn't know what the revelations really meant because he was illiterate. These are all the teachings they follow. They are innovators.

>>1940770
I know they're not following the good path of Islam. I'm saying they follow what they've been deceived into believing is the good path of Islam.

>>1940762
fug

I've been stumped.

>>1940762
Islam has had scholars or "prophets" trying to reform the religion ever since Muhammad die. It's sad that the only one that took off was radical terrorism.

>>1940812
To be fair that's basically what happened with Christianity as well.

People love their militant fundamentalism.

>>1940821
But wouldn't fundamental Islam be to follow the practices of Muhammad and his successor? Or would that be traditionalism? I don't recall them killing masses of Muslims, destroying the Prophet's grave, allying with non-Muslims to kill Muslims, etc.

>>1940824
Fundamentalist was the wrong word. Lutherans aren't exactly fundamentalist.

>>1940701
Umar(r.a) was assassinated by a Magian(some Shias will claim he was a Shiite), because the Magians hated no one more then Umar(r.a)

>>1939574
There are many narrations indicating that the Quran was available in book form even during the time of the Prophet(a.s):

"I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the book of God and my Sunnah" . Muwatta, 46/3

"I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the book of God and my Family." Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; Ibn Hanbal
4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319

"I left for you what if you hold up to, you will never be misguided, the book of God." Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; Ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

All parts of a mass transmitted sermon(the last to be exact). Narrators came from various sects and backgrounds, so their narrations vary. Notice a constant within it?

>>1940751
Can you give me more info on the claim the Wahhabies ancestors pre-wahhabism followed other prophets/another religion?

>>1940744
They are called Rashidun caliphs for a reason. They were some of the most(if not the most) loyal and trusted companions.

>>1930677
Based Jordanian Here, AMA

>>1930713
Lol a grown man playing the pathetic attention whore. Here's a (you)

>>1930553
Tbqh Lebanon looked promising until it all went to shit.

Fuck Iran, fuck Hezbollah.

>>1930688
They treated the Qur'an like Christians, and especially protestants, treated the bible.

>>1941267
You do realize the Qur'an calls itself a book, right? Even before it was objectively ever written and especially before it was ever collected.

Alif lam meem, dhaalika al kitaabu la raiba feehi. Surat bakara, literal first verse after the fatiha.

>>1930621
>If there is anyone from Jordan or Lebanon
My great great grandfather was beheaded in Lebanon or some shit.

I'm also half Lebanese.

>>1941267
>There are many narrations indicating that the Quran was available in book form even during the time of the Prophet

The whole point is questioning the authenticity of the Quran because it wasn't written until many years after his death. Wasn't the whole point of the civil war and assassination of Ali because he felt they were forging verses in the Quran?

>Can you give me more info on the claim the Wahhabies ancestors pre-wahhabism followed other prophets/another religion?

Not Wahab ancestors, but Saud ancestors.Al-Saud was a descendant of Banu Hanifah, a clan who were the main supporter of Musailamah. Saud's clan continued to follow him until the influence of Wahhabism. Wahab came from a family of scholars and judges. His own brother who was a scholar and later Islamic judge wrote a book claiming how he got his ideas from studying false prophets. He even allowed his followers to insult Muhammad. After being exiled from every village he ended up at, he found himself in Saud's village. As they were followers of a false prophet, they had no resentment of him claiming Muhammad didn't understand what was being revealed to him because he was illiterate, and that all of his followers and successors were idol worshipers, and that he was only trying to purify Islam. And the rest is history. They destroyed tombs of Muhammad's family. They killed Muslims that mourned for lost loved ones and prayed for Muhammad to intercede them because idol worshiping. They eventually allied with the British to fight the Ottoman Empire. Some theories claimed British spies influenced Wahab and his doctrine of Islam to help divide Islam. Either way, it's worked ever since. They got the holy lands to control after the Ottoman Empire so that real Muslims would have to fight fake Muslims to get control back, but real Muslims consider them real Muslims so won't, and just deal with the hijacking of their religion controlled by the West.

>>1942212
I am aware of that, perhaps taking the words of the hadith as literal was a mistake on my behalf, however I think there is still a possibility of the Quran being present in collected textual form during the Prophets(a.s) time. Just a personal speculation though. Regardless, even if the collecting of the verses happened after the Prophets(a.s) passing, its collecting was in good hands (thanks to the Rashidun caliphs, the scribes, huffaz and other companions).

>>1942257
The assassination of Ali(r.a) had a other background, in relation to a rebel sect. The war was about something completely different.

The Al-Saud thing with Musailamah sounds interesting, didn't know about that one. However, how could the people be unaware of such a thing? Are you sure Al-Saud were still following Musailamah?

>>1942576
I keep trying to find the article but cannot. Pretty sure it was a history of Wahabbism article about Wahab traveling to a village that followed Musailamah, and Muhammad Ibn Saud was the chief.

I get that Islamic reform has happened, but do you really think a group that followed Muhammad would not care if somebody walked into town and started insulting him and his companions calling them idol worshipers?

>>1940764
>following a religious sect created by Christians.
what now?

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab believed that it is only he and his followers who are monotheist and worshippers of God. He maintained that God truly sits on the Throne with hands and legs and He has eyes, face, tongue and soul and speaks with His tongue and mouth. In short, he believed that God has a physical shape quite the opposite of what all Muslims believe as disbelief. To Muslims, Allah isn't a deity.

His followers believed that the tombs and shrines are like idols and should be demolished. Not only did they destroy graves of normal people's loved ones, but they destroyed the tombs of Prophet Muhammad and his family, killing thousands of Muslims in the process. The Wahhabi sheikh chose Dar’iya, the birthplace of Musailamah the liar, who had claimed to be the next prophet after the Prophet of Islam. Upon arriving in Dar’iya Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab met with the emir of the region, Muhammad ibn Saud the ancestor of the al-Saud family, and sealed with him by Saud marrying his daughter. The ancestors of Wahab and Saud have been tight knit ever since. They allied with Britain to take down the Ottoman Empire from within. The troop attacked Muslim-inhabited cities and villages, destroying their buildings, raping women, and taking all their possessions. At the end, they got Saudi Arabia as a prize.

>>1930584
BOŻE ZBAW SUŁTANA

>>1942835
Wasn't created, but it would have died off if it weren't for Britain aiding the Saud family in building the 2nd Saud kingdom. They knew of Wahhabism extremist views and thought it was the perfect plan to defeat the Ottoman Empire.