Book thread

>>1927189

Its a good book, its just a little to rational for stormfags.

Read the book first to come with your own opinion first, anon.

These threads should be bannable.

>>1927189
Because its not historically rigorous in any way.
The Annales School exists and has existed for about 80 years. It covers all the same shit that Diamond does, but is actually historically rigorous, nuanced, and far better reasoned. It even has a massive and well developed historiogprahical debate surrounding it.

A lot of hate for GGS comes from the fact that retards treat it like gospel. This is despite it effectively being the fast food of history.

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It's popular hence shit
White people are special and unique

>>1927207
>>1927189
>>1928283

I didn't intend to quote it as a source, just wanted something to read on train rides and if there were some good points against it I wouldn't want to waste my time. Doesn't look like it, though.
Thank you for your input, guys!

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>>1928307

Quoted myself like a retard.

Geographical Determinism is simply a Egalitarian idea because many lefitsts are afraid to say that there was anything "unique" that allowed Europe to become advanced

>>1928333
And here comes /pol/

>>1928351
he's not wrong though...Geographical Determinism is a limited idea, and alot of it comes from Egalitarian ideology

>>1928333
and what was unique about europe?

>>1928363
culturally.....Universities during the Middle Ages had alot to do with the future domination of science and mathematics in Europe

>>1928353
>he's

The capitalized improper nouns are a dead giveaway bręh

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>>1927189

Why settle for geographic determinism that stops being relevant in the Age of Discovery? Institutional analysis is where it's at.

>>1928480
Mah nigger.

Albeit the chapter on the Natufians was extremely weak.

Most of the bad rep is due to /pol/'s butthurt, but the book is a bit hashed. The goal was obviously to stick it to racists not an honest analysis.

The central premise of the book isn't exactly a revelation. A jungle tribe obviously doesn't have the resources to build a caravel and sail to the new world, it was 1000s of years before iron smelting was discovered so it is no surprise that the Aztecs didn't have it.

He sets out to prove genetics plays no role then contradicts this by stating that tribes in Papua New Guinea are superior to Europeans. I think he was trying to stick it to racists by using their flawed reasoning against them, but in doing so he opened up a pandora's box of judgments about races based on the environment they evolved in which is blasphemy for liberals. The way he tackles this issue is kind of a mess.

The book is littered with him taking small things and blowing them out of proportion, a common mistake among amateur historians. As an exercise you could look for alternate explanations with equal or greater standards of proof.

>>1928515
>Most of the bad rep is due to /pol/'s butthurt

/pol/'s butthurt is pretty much the opposite of the recent academic butthurt, which tends to be that geographic determinism 'lets people off the hook' for historical misbehavior.

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>>1927189
Hows this book for someone just getting into Chinese history?

>>1927207
It also pisses off ultra-liberals. A good sign the book has done something right.

>>1927189
The basics of the book are totally fine. People just overblow the inaccuracies because they are racists who can't deal with the fact that all humans are closely related.

>>1929529

I don't agree. Fundamentally, the book is in error. Diamond spends however many pages asking why civilization didn't flourish in some regions, when he should be asking the opposite - why civilization developed and advanced the way it did at all.

It's an almost indistinguishable difference, but it's hugely important, because it does away with the silly idea that technological civilization is man's higher calling or even necessary at all. When looking at Africa from this perspective, it's easier to see that they never advanced because they never needed to advance. You don't need to analyze all the factors and determine which ones they lacked to come to that conclusion. All you need to do is look at Africa, the continent of warm weather and abundant life, and realize that the idea that they should have wanted for more - and would have undertaken all of the uncertain steps to achieve more - is inherently frivolous.

The stirrup revolutionized warfare in Europe, but it took a millennium for the idea to travel to Europe from China. What stopped Europeans from inventing it? It's literally just a ledge attached to a saddle. Any old idiot could have thought of it, but as it happened, nobody did. I'm sure Diamond would tell you (if he was being true to himself) that Europeans did not invent the stirrup because there was just not enough grain variety in Europe, or that the winters were too long and cold, or some other such nonsense. But not every idea needs to be conditioned by a geographical reality. Diamond claims that the Americas and Africa lacked a suitable draft animal, and as a consequence failed to develop the wheel. But surely it is just as likely that, as with the stirrup, it just so happened that no one thought it up, and if someone had, who knows - maybe they would have realized its potential and worked to domesticate an animal such as the buffalo or zebra. Not an easy undertaking, by any means, but certainly not impossible.

>>1930033
It's environmental probablism not environmental determinism. He only goes as far as to say environments make things more or less likely.

>>1927189
classic case of the mental gymnastics people have to perform in order to avoid dealing with human biodiversity. A more realistic approach would be an instant career-ender, though, so no historian will ever consider touching it.

>>1927189
It is disliked here, but generally for the wrong reasons.

>>1930051
If what you're implying is true then why did Europe overtake Asia even though Asians have higher IQ's?

>>1930046

I don't think that changes anything, and actually it supplements my argument. There was no reason why they couldn't, they simply didn't. As I said, the stirrup is a great example of something that should've been, but just wasn't.

Fact is that the dice were rolled already, so we may as well just call it determinism at this point.

>>1930085
differences in IQ aren't the whole story, or even the largest part of it. But they do play a part. What if I told you that Europe overtaking Asia was due to a combination of factors including genetics, geography, culture and sheer luck/good timing?

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>>1930094
>IQ

>>1927207
anything that pisses off both stormfags and SJW's is probably great

Any recommendations on a book about WW1? Nothing too crazy detailed but more of a survey

>>1930139
check out hew strachan's book

>>1930122
great work, by posting this screenshot you have definitively disproved any link between intelligence and genetics.

>>1930157
not an argument

>>1928333
Ideas of 'unique Europe' tend to ignore that industrialisation first took place in northern England and the Low Countries, not across Europe as a whole.

>>1927189
It's decent enough, he has some funny anecdotes in there and it's a good read. The problem with it though is that it smacks of political correctness and in the progress he only does a disservice to the real historical record.

Diamond’s account makes all the factors of European domination a product of a distant and accidental history: In other words, it's environmental determinism at it's worst and leaves no room what so ever for human agency

The biggest problem is not the book itself, it's how people treat it as gospel

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>>1927189
Dunno what linguists think about it, but I liked it

>>1928366

>Middle Age Universities
>science and mathematics

lol fucking pick one

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Sup /his/ I have 2 questions in mind.

Could you give recommendations for books about Phoenician/ Canaanite history/mythology/religion?

Is pic related good for someone just getting into Korean history?

>>1928366
Universities were established and attended by a statistically insignificant elite in these countries, it had nothing to do with the European "continent" as a whole.

Not saying they had no influence on it, they certainly did. It just seems a bit > We Wuz < to claim that the entire "continent" deserves credit.

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>>1927189
my Uni teacher showed the classes the whole series that is based on this book. haven't read the book yet but the series is defently good and Diamond has alot of great arguments.
/his/ don't know what they're talking about

>>1928366
>medieval europe invented higher learning
woah

>>1930033
10/10 post.

>>1929098
>>1930684

weebs OUT

>>1928324
keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek

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Just got a second edition of this that I'm excited to start. My copy is from 1916. Anyone here with sincere criticisms for Gibbs? I'm in the middle of Now It Can Be Told and saw Soul of the War for 10 bucks so I snagged it too.

>>1931979
Not a weeb? Just interested in broadening my historical knowledge. Now are you gonna answer my questions or not.

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>>1927189
Excellent book.

>>1929098
>>1933009
This

>>1931129

Then you must go to a shit school if they're teaching you outdated historical concepts.

>>1928515

He also contradicts himself by claiming that Jews are a unique genetic "race" with a high natural IQ, the very argument he was trying to refute vis a vis Europeans.
> In an article that appeared in the popular Natural History in 1993, Diamond discussed the genetic studies on how Jews differ from non-Jews. He made this eye-opening statement: “There are also practical reasons for interest in Jewish genes. The state of Israel has been going to much expense to support immigration and job retraining of Jews who were persecuted minorities in other countries. That immediately poses the problem of defining who is a Jew. For example, a debate is going on right now [November 1993] in Israel concerning policy toward Ethiopia’s remaining would-be immigrants who identify themselves as Jews. Are they descendants of ancient Jews, as they maintain, or are they descendants of converted Africans, as their physical appearance might suggest?”

There's also the non-trivial fact that Diamond is an ornithologist with no training or background in history or genetics.

>>1930033
>Diamond claims that the Americas and Africa lacked a suitable draft animal, and as a consequence failed to develop the wheel.

This is an especially egregious claim when you consider that Europe and China also lacked any draft animals, they had to import them from the middle east. Cattle and horses reached sub-Saharan Africa literally thousands of years ago, before they reached Europe in fact, but of course Diamond doesn't know this because he's not an historian, he's an ornithologist.

>>1930163

But posting a screencap is an argument? Get wrecked you faggot, the link between genes and intelligence is absolutely concrete.

>>1929098

I haven't read it front to back but it was highly recommended by a professor of mine who knew his shit on Chinese history, so I'd say it's probably pretty good.

That prof hated communists pretty hard though, I don't know if Spence approaches it with the same attitude.

>>1933045
The north africa and the surrounding regions were incredibly prosperous but but fighting between different empires caused a lot of them to fall and quickly. As for sub-Saharan africa wouldn't the geography not allow for much development? It's a large continent and the desert makes it hard for people to travel let alone domesticate horses.

>>1933088
>As for sub-Saharan africa wouldn't the geography not allow for much development? It's a large continent and the desert makes it hard for people to travel let alone domesticate horses.

Sub Saharan Africa is vast, and lacks much in the way of deserts. Also they DID have domesticated cattle and horses, they just didn't ride them or use them as draft animals.

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>>1933105
The desert limits contact with the rest of the old world though. And the rest of the continent is largely tropical. That climate doesn't naturally call for the same use of domesticated animals as it did in western europe

>>1933136

Okay. That's not the same question at all, tho. Diamond claims they didn't have access to cattle and horses, they did, he is simply completely ignorant of the history of Africa as he is of the history of anywhere else for that matter.

Also India is also tropical but made extensive use of domesticated animals as both food (which Africans used them for) and as draft animals.

>>1933149
I wasn't arguing to prove Diamond was exactly right but my own pov.

As for India they're in a different geological location than Africa. They have similar problems with the Himalayas and have problem with empires fighting. It goes into modern day, just look at the creation of Pakistan

>>1933192

Africa is backwards primarily because of isolation, but secondarily because of low IQs. India is proof that tropical countries can be advanced, the Maya and Olmecs are proof that isolated cultures can achieve great things, Africa fell so far behind because it had the trifecta of climate, isolation, and genes.

>>1933210
>Africa fell so far behind because of climate, isolation,
The exact point I'm trying to make
>and genes
There's even less proof for this

>>1933248

How else do you explain the 15 point IQ gap between black Africans and white Europeans? Bear in mind that this same gap exists both in Africa and in all countries with a sizeable black population, and that the gap halves for mixed black and white children.

>>1933009
>Unfortunately, this reckless manner of dealing with evidence is typical of 1421, vitiating all its extraordinary claims: the voyages it describes never took place, Chinese information never reached Prince Henry and Columbus, and there is no evidence of the Ming fleets in newly discovered lands. The fundamental assumption of the book—that the Yongle Emperor dispatched the Ming fleets because he had a "grand plan", a vision of charting the world and creating a maritime empire spanning the oceans—is simply asserted by Menzies without a shred of proof ... The reasoning of 1421 is inexorably circular, its evidence spurious, its research derisory, its borrowings unacknowledged, its citations slipshod, and its assertions preposterous ... Examination of the book's central claims reveals they are uniformly without substance.

>>1933258
Because the continent has been isolated for so long. Also most african communities are impoverished

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>>1933265
Shut the fuck up. He's right and you know he is. The historian community hates him because he pointed out the obvious before they did.

>>1928480
its a bit sweeping and hedgehoggy but presents a good, solid theory

>>1933050
Yes posting a screencap of an argument and thus presenting it as such is indeed an argument. Why wouldn't it be? Are you by chance mentally retarded, friend?

>>1933272

That explains nothing. The gap exists when you correct for wealth, even the children of extremely successful blacks show the same gap when compared with impoverished whites.

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>>1933484

>>1933488
>implying IQ tests measure innate intelligence instead of learned intelligence

hurrrr

>>1933494
Less memeing, more disproving any bit of what I posted.

>>1933495

Would you prefer I stated it? Yes, IQ tests measure innate intelligence, NOT learned intelligence.

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>>1933497

Why do you imagine I'm going to read your screencap? If you want to make an argument then go right ahead, if you want to post pictures, well, I can do that too :^)

>>1933505
>lives

>>1933516

Are you implying that a fetus isn't alive?

>>1928351
>I don't like it so it's /pol/
>I'm going to let everyone know this in the most fucking passive aggressive sounding way possible

>>1933505
>I don't know how to respond to an actual post that completely wrecks my worldview.
>g-gotta try and avoid the question by posting ebin memes

Whenever you're able to disprove the second paragraph in that 15 paragraph argument, then maybe your point can be taken seriously. Until then, you're just blowing hot air from being btfo.

>>1933265
>>1933009
This is the worst wewuz because most historians know the Ming dynasty was mediocre at best

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>>1933523

:^)

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>>1933526
XD

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>>1933530

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>>1933533

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>>1930122
>using wikipedia and blogspot as sources

>far left hates it because it too ethnocentric
>far right hates it because its not ethnocentric enough
How do you win with these idiots?

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>>1933655
Eh, I tried

>>1933655
What's wrong with the mongol books there though? They're entry tier but there's nothing bad about them, they're not forcing any kind of narriative. Though granted I only read the first one there on the right.

>>1933634
>thinking blogspot and wikipedia are being sourced as opposed to the journals cited in the links and the post itself
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit I take it?

can someone recommend me a redpilled book on slavery in america? I want to know the real truth

I hate to ask for recommendations, but I don't think I needed an entire thread to ask. Can anyone tell me which historians covered the Cuban Missile Crisis the best?

>>1927207
Stormfags thinks it's funny though?
I recall them laughing their asses off about it and posting a ton of pictures of domesticated zebras and African pastures back on /int/ back when it was more relevant.

>>1931174
Well more or less, yes.
At least insofar as the Monastic Schools placed an emphasis on learning and imparting that knowledge and the later Universities took that and grew it into Scholasticism as a discipline.

>>1927189
I'm prepared to accept that the orientation of continents could have had something to do with the technological advancements of different societies, but I don't recall the book ever effectively explaining why East Asia didn't industrialize more quickly and just stagnated for hundreds of years. Shouldn't it have benefited from the same east-west axis as Europe?

>>1933857
what isn't the real truth?

>>1933655
Bottom right is completely accurate though :^)

Black people literally continue to have 15 iq points less than Whites, even in similar socio-economic levels..

its genes