>What kind of civilization do you want China? JUST

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>>1915763
>mfw

Mao saved China from its misery

And no, muh culture and traditions is not an argument, stormniggers

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>>1915860
>JUST hard in Great Leap Forward
>do even worse in Cultural Revolution
>have to adjust your shitty ideology's economics to more capitalism because your leader cant do economy for shit
>end up turning your country into a polluted, bloated mess that's going to collapse (the only way preventing so by censoring everything from Tibet to Tienanmen and flex your military to not look like a paper tiger)
>meanwhile Taiwan since 1949 has been laughing at you because the only you can do right is make your country more polluted and set to rig itself to blow
"WE DID IT MAO WE SAVED CHINA!"

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>>1915925
Look, a rightard
i'm just in the right mood to btfo him
>paved the way to westernization
>Industrialized the country
>killed the cancerous rightards and religiontards
>removed the traditions that deprived china from developing
>state atheism
>collectivization put an end to famines (even before Mao, China suffered from famines)
now go back to your containment board, vermin

>>1915947
forgot
>Successfully united China

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>>1915925
>>1915947
>>1915955
Mao was like Stalin, a dick who caused a lot of deaths and suffering, but in turn great strides were made to westernize and industrialize to make China an actual power and not a meme. In the past 10-20 years though China has basically fucked themselves long term by destroying their ecosystem and environment.

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>>1915947
>my only arguments is that he killed people that trigger me and made up a bunch of systems that are totally not going to shit itself in 20 years tops

>>1915955
>>1915966
>have to change your post to successfully because you don't take geography lessons on the island right next to them

>>1915976
>implying Stalin didnt do a better job than Mao
>implying ANYONE hasn't done a better job than Mao
>implying the only good Mao thing has done is croke and let actual sane people somehow fix the shit hole sweatshop known as the Peoples Republic

>>1915976
I always hear how they fucked their ecosystem, but just 50 yeara ago my grandma couldn't hang her laundry outside here in Germany because of the air pollution from coal powerplants and the river going through the city was so polluted it killed everything in it. Nowadays the air quality is fine and the river is alive again. We were just as fucked after industrialization and we fixed it. They can do the same in the next 50 or so years.

>>1915947
You're an idiot, Mao was a traitor to communism.
t. A communist

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>>1915995
>No argument
>only shitpost
kek
>that are totally not going to shit itself in 20 years tops
double kek
Mao's reforms are permanent. And the reforms that i listed are totally not going to shit themselves in 20 years
now go back to your containment board
>have to change your post to successfully because you don't take geography lessons on the island right next to them
i changed my post because i typed "unified" instead of "united"
also the Island next to them belongs to the U.S. Half of the world does not even recognize that cuck state.
Now back to your containment board, shoo shoo

>>1916006
t. a liberal
ftfy

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>>1915995
>implying the US is doing a better job and not going to shit itself within the next 20 years

>>1916014
>Maos reforms are permanent
What is Deng Xiaoping
What is Everything after his death

>>1916020
>UH UHHHH AMERICA WILL 2
No one even brought it up sperg

>>1915860
If Mao saved China from its misery, why did the parts of China not ruled by Mao turned out better?

>>1916020
>implying the American empire will ever end

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>>1915860
>>1915947
>saved it from misery
>by killing tens of millions of his own people and nearly destroying 2000 years of cultural development
Kill yourself commie, Deng Xiaoping is the only reason China didn't collapse after Mao's death.

Also
>state atheism
>good

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Reminder that this is the kind of faggot that idolizes Mao Zedong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhKRCTIZIA4

>>1916184
Again
go back to your shitty containment board
>>1916103
Mao ruled all of China, retard

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>>1916225
>can't refute
>g-go back to /pol/
Commies, not even once.

I'd rather have communism than hair queues and ugly Manchu clothing. Holy FUCK what were the Manchus thinking with that shit? The horse riding bastards destroyed one of the world's GOAT clothing manufacturers.

>>1916001
You weren't poisoning poisoning the soil with as many heavy metals.
China is basically Cancertown.

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>>1916241
>I'd rather be starving to death and having my culture erased than have a funny haircut

>>1915995
>>implying ANYONE hasn't done a better job than Mao
Pol Pot.

>>1916255

Bayer basically poisoned our soil to hell and back then built annorphanage on it and claimed they dindu nuthin when all the orphans got cancer. And it's not that bad in most of China. There are heavily polluted areas and there are unpolluted areas, people like to pretend smogfilled Beijing is how it is every day or that Datong industrial areas represent all of China.

>>1916227
You just blabbered about six trillion and muh culture
you are a retarded faggot if you think that you deserved a serious reply other than "go back 2 your containment board"
i bet you are an amerilard.

>>1916260
>Starving to death
NICE MEME again, lardy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines_in_China
Mao put an end to famines in China. Read about collectivization. It killed people yes, but in the end it defeated famines.

look, you poltards don't know anything about history. why are you even on this board? to spread your retarded ideology? then you're going to fail. just like your german brothers in WW2
>MUH
>CULTURE
no. chinese culture is still alive. Only some religions and some retarded traditions are dead.

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>>1916298
>getting tens of millions of your own people killed through shitty economic and agricultural planning isn't a big deal
Why are commies such sociopaths?

>>1916362
>tens of millions
that's actually speculated. but anyway, it put an end to famines that crippled China throughout its history.
go ahead, shitpost more.

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>>1916319
>Sure he just caused one of the biggest famines in China's history, but none happened after that!
Also for such a huge famine to happen in an industrialized nation is despicable.

>>1916225
He didn't rule Taiwan, nor Hong Kong and Macau.

If we consider the Qing, there is also Mongolia, which was part of China then but wasn't ruled by Mao. And while it's not rich as Taiwan or Hong Kong, it didn't turn up much worse than Mainland China either.

>>1916371
>that's actually speculated
Actually it's not, besides by retards like Jason Unruhe.

>>1916103
>why did the coastal island pumped up with $200 billion and free trade to the US develop quicker?

You know, honestly, I really have no clue.

>>1916372
>Also for such a huge famine to happen in an industrialized nation
> in an industrialized nation
China was largely an agrarian country during Mao's reign. This is why Mao pushed for "peasant revolution" instead of "worker revolution"

and like i said, the number is speculated
>>1916380
>Actually it's not
le darg boog of gommunism is the source. so no.
>trillions xdDD
also Jason Unruhe is a good goy. I like him.

>>1916260
>having my culture

Did culture just end in China because Mao got pissy?

Taiwan and Xiamen don't seem all that different to me tbqh senpai.

>>1916260
it was alot more than a funny haircut. the Qing Empire was more JUST than even the Ottomans (in the same time period ofc)

>>1916388
To be honest Taiwan was really poor in the 50s and 60s too.

>>1916260
The funny haircut WAS an erasure of culture, you dimwit. It was the ultimate humiliation to wear some barbarian hairstyle just because some assholes in the Ming court fucked around too much.

>>1916655
>It was the ultimate humiliation to wear some barbarian hairstyle just because some assholes in the Ming court fucked around too much.
Architecture, Philosophy, Military weaponry & armor, and everything else remained intact.

If anything, the Queue laws are a Manchu interpretation of Chinese cutsom (i.e. political haircuts). Not to mention they were done under Nurhaci back when they were still keen in the Manchu project, but that died off when Manchus went WE WUZ MANDATE and started acting like Chinese. Culturally the Manchus got BTFO more than the Chinese.

>>1916673
They remained intact and stagnated.Honestly the stagnation began after the Song dynasty. Then the Qing got btfo in literally every war they fought.

>>1916776
>Honestly the stagnation began after the Song dynasty
You kidding me? Do you even Ming?

>>1916284
Maybe that's why you're all so fucking autistic.

>>1916776
>Then the Qing got btfo in literally every war they fought.
Because Qing conquest of Ming China, Mongolia, Tibet, and Xinjiang was apparently not accomplished through war.

>>1916397
>Taiwan and Xiamen don't seem all that different to me tbqh senpai.
Taiwanese are essentially Fujianese with a special snowflake complex.

If it wasn't for Japanese colonization there wouldn't be a Taiwanese identity.

>>1916819
Ming was complete shit. The only reason Chinese people like them is because they were han. Almost all scholars considers them terrible.

>>1916819
>Song
>invent gunpowder, weaponize is
>Ming
>have to import European cannons, matchlocks BTFO of Ming armies in Korea

Really makes you think.

>>1917200
Let's face it Tibet Xinjiang and Mongolia in the post Ming period were basically the Africa of Asia. When the Qing went up against non backwater states they got fucking destroyed everytime until the dynasty collapsed

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>>1916776
>Stagnated.
No, it didn't. If we're taking the MUH VIDYAGAME TECH-TREE development argument, they were slow. In fact, all of Asia was fucking slow relative to Europe. Advancing, but slow.

Unless you want to explain how an apparently "Stagnant" Qing China became one of the largest producers of cotton by inventing a dry-room storage that doesnt let cotton rot. The fact that they did this output even without the meme Cotton Gin is fucking impressive.

>Then the Qing got btfo in literally every war they fought.
Yeah, I mean, the 10 Great Campaigns of the 1700s that forged China into the shape people think proper China is was fucking nothing.

Ending the eternal Steppe Nomad was nothing either.

>>1917247
>>1917260
>Ming was complete shit.
>Achieved the Land Reforms everyone in China was asking for.
>Decentralized the government a bit to allow for administrative flexibility
>Wasnt xenophobic. Incorporated good ideas from foreign entities.

>Song = BTFO by Steppeniggers. Muh Appeasement Policies.
>Ming = Took Inner Mongolia from the Mongols.

>>1917260
The Song dynasty literally lost all the fucking wars it ever fought if you want military dickwaving contests.

>>1917285
That happens if you kill all your remotely good generals

>>1915947
>collectivization put an end to famines (even before Mao, China suffered from famines)
My grandfather would like to have a word with you

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>>1915763

>Just kill all the birds and plant seeds six feet deep, that'll increase food supply LMAO

>Also let's make farmers try to cook steal instead of just letting them farm

What did he mean by this?

Could someone elaborate on the cultural collapse? I'm interested.

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>tfw Sun Yat-Sen died too early

JUST

>>1917277
>Decentralized the government a bit to allow for administrative flexibility

Only out of stupidity. The Ming was obsessed with centralization to the point where they destroyed their own bureaucracy in an attempt to have the emperor and his entourage conduct all administration. This was obviously inefficient and the resulted in local gentry taking up a majority of the responsibilities of government making the Ming completely ineffectual.

>Wasnt xenophobic. Incorporated good ideas from foreign entities.

Yes they were, while the rest of the world was growing closer together the Ming attempted to shut themselves off and stop naval trade. Again, local gentry had to pick up where the dynasty didn't and crafted trade networks with the spice islands but China still fell way behind in international trade.

>Ming = Took Inner Mongolia from the Mongols.

Which was their problem. They spent all there time holed up in their forbidden city in the far north paranoid about the Mongols while completely neglecting the rich south. Look at east Asia, why the fuck was the largest military on earth wasting their time conquering inner Mongolia. They should have retaken Vietnam or Korea.

>>1916378
i thought mongolia was also communist?

>>1916378
>tfw more mongolians live in china than """"mongolia"""""

>>1917731

Easier to say when Mongolia got the worst soil on earth.

Why do all Canadians live within 50 miles of the US border again?

>>1917721
Was during Soviet Era because it was under the direct protection of USSR.

>>1917325
Basically Mao tore down old things to drag the nation forward kicking and screaming. This included destroying temples, old city walls and generally things and normal nation would consider important cultural heritage. The old city wall of Beijing was supposed to be very impressive but lmao decided it needed to go. I think the Forbidden City was only spared because some party leaders fought for its preservation nail and tooth.

Then they closed centers of learning and humiliated and exiled all the scholars. Young teens were given AKs a red book and an unlimited train pass to enforce Mao's communism in all of China. Imagine giving the most crazy of modern liberals guns and immunity by the government and sending them out.

Also upholding the farmer as the ideal to strive for. Confucius says no unwanted sound shall leave the body? Fuck that, eat with your mouth open spewing food everywhere and fart loudly whenever you feel like it.

Deng unfucked most of Mao's economic fuck ups, but cultural destruction will take decades and centuries to reverse.

>>1918132
>Fuck that, eat with your mouth open spewing food everywhere and fart loudly whenever you feel like it.
is this true, it would explain a lot

>>1918140

Unfortunately yes. Reading Confucius and then looking at the average modern Chinese behaviour is depressing.

>>1918132
so mainland chinese trashiness could be deduced as result of communism? thats explain why taiwanese, macaus and hongkong felt much more civilised desu

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>>1918140
basically

>>1917260
>matchlocks BTFO of Ming armies in Korea
Did they really?

>>1918175
No. Before Hideyoshi died, the Imjin War was pretty much a series of stalemates between the Ming and Japan with lots of supply line issues.

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>>1915860
Filthy neo maoist go hang yourself.
Deng is my waifu

>>1915976
I disagree, there's a fundamental difference. Stalin was a ruthless dictator, but he was a realist and a pragmatic. Mao acted like he was 5 years old outside of combat.

>>1916001
It's a complicated mess, but believe me pollution from 1950's steelworks and fertilizer factories is much easier to fix than the literal suicide China is pulling on itself. I can go into more detail if you want
t. Environmental Science student

>>1918132
>but cultural destruction will take decades and centuries to reverse.
[Citation needed]

>Also upholding the farmer as the ideal to strive for. Confucius says no unwanted sound shall leave the body? Fuck that, eat with your mouth open spewing food everywhere and fart loudly whenever you feel like it.
[Citation needed]

>>1918143
[Citation needed]

>>1918168
[Citation needed]

>>1918697
im singaporean, you could differentiate mainland chinese by their swarthiness and behaviour

>>1916319
Are you aware of the environmental harm maoist anti famine policies have produced?
Thank God they're starting to change their agricultural practices otherwise Chinese water would be undrinkable by 2030.

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>>1918694
>than the literal suicide China is pulling on itself.

Got any citations?

Because multiple scholarly sources show that overall pollution in China has been declining since the early 2000's, an air pollution since 2010-2011.

If China was "literally suiciding" then why did Chinese expected lifespan increase from 68 to 79 over the last 16 years? They've literally added almost a year to their lifespan each year.

Take your "t. Muh anecdotes" back to /int/.

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>>1915925
I'm sure all these chinamen were much better off before GLF :^))))

>>1918709
>I'm singaporean

Yeah and I am LKY.

The only difference between y'all and the mainlanders you are descended from is money.

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>>1918717
Fuck off I worked on that shit. Unless Chinese farmers get proper education on how to actually farm, they can say goodbye to their groundwater.

>>1918132
Also, if you wonder why of all the traditions that were destroyed eating nearly extinct animals to cure you of impotency survived its because Mao promoted traditional healing so he wouldbt have to bother with providing actual medical standarts as peasants drinking monkeypiss or whatever to tend to their sickness was cheaper.

>>1918730
>>1918738
are you chinese? isn't the great leap forward is taboo now in china? even the government view it as mistake now?

>>1918758
Find a credible source. Stop claiming anecdotes.

Chinese live to 75-76 now. That's up from 68 in 2000.

If they are killing themselves from pollution/side effects of pollution, it would have gone down or at least not gone up.

>>1918730
Wasnt that because China was sovereign and united at that point?
This is a great accomplishment of Mao, but China being an economic juggernaut by its population allone should do more to drive you forward then burning down your arts and religious centers who could have been simply reformed/stripped off power by other means.

>>1918774
>if you wonder why of all the traditions that were destroyed eating nearly extinct animals to cure you of impotency survived

You do know that South Koreans, Vietnamese, and even (gasp) Taiwan Chinese use traditional medicine with endangered animals in it?

>>1918758
We worked with this document in my uni.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223898027_Nitrate_pollution_of_groundwater_in_northern_China

Im not going to privately spend 40$ to prove some retard on the internet right.

>>1918819
Meant for >>1918780

>>1918775
No. I'm a fucking white guy that happens to know modern Chinese history.
The /his/tory here is absolute trash tier pop history. I'm probably fighting a losing battle with the ignorance here.

The GLF is considered in China as a failure, and by the CCP as the 30% bad that Mao did.

>>1918815
Yep, I simply said why the mainland kept it instead of discarding it like other magic practizes that cause less strain on the ecosystem.

I dont know however if the modern popularity in Korea etc is inherited from their own culture or simply aping modern mainland china were it is a status symbol to afford rhinohorns and the like.

>>1918824
>Le 70 good 30 bad meme
If the CCP leadership could erase the memory of Mao without any repercussions they would already do so, but it would kind of undermine their powerbase.

>>1918838
>I simply said why the mainland kept it
>kept it

You seem to be implying that other nations and cultures let it go and that somehow Mao is the X factor that "kept it" in use in Mainland China.
This is retarded though.
If it is used in all the East Asian (Confucius) nations bordering it, then how could Mao be the X factor?

>south Korea may be aping mainland China
You are showing your ignorance here since Koreans have used traditional medicine as long as there are historical records in Korea. It also is meaningless to your argument either way.

>>1918821
That's not what you claimed.

1. Northern China isn't all of China.
2. Southern China has ample amounts of water.
3. Central China has giant fucking lakes that are natural and some artificial.

>>1918840
>>Le 70 good 30 bad meme

Reality and official policy is not a meme.

>undermine their powerbase
I hope you're not implying that Maoists form the CCP powerbase. Because that's bern wrong since the early 1970's.

>>1918856
Let me phrase it this way.
Mao is not the Xfactor in keeping it but the Xfactor in not discrediting and destroying it like he did with ancestor worship and the like.

I do know that korea had similar practizes just as long, you may have misunderstood what I intended to say as I stressed the -modern- popularity of it in korea.
The koreans are a highly educated society and should know its bullshit but they may keep it because it was never discredited in china so they emulate it due to massappeal for the same reasons central european nations copy Hallowee n from america while disregarding their old indigenous rites that are related to halloween as they overlap but lack the massappeal.

>>1917260
>matchlocks BTFO of Ming armies in Korea
t. Turnbull

Japanese forces were unable to counter Ming cavalry even with overwhelming numbers. (5,000 vs 30,000+ in the Battle of Byeokjegwan)

>>1918921
Okay.

You seem to have the interesting belief that Mao was an all-powerful being capable of destroying/creating what he wanted.

Ancestor worship is practiced by most Chinese today, and continued to be practiced by most Chinese even during the Cultural Revolution.

Maoism affected the rate of cultural practices at the margins, but on the whole did not change the society.

It's like you think the Black plague, the Lushan rebellion, the Mongols, or the Qing conquest just made Chinese stop practicing their traditions.

>>1918868
1.
>Thinking transfers of water on the logistical scale of China are possible
I can't tell if your brilliance is reaching Mao tier or if you're just intellectually dishonest.
2.
We worked with northern Chinese data but it's an endemic problem for all of China simply because their farmers aren't being taught of proper agri production techniques. They basically just buy enormous quantities (up to 200% too much) of fertilizers and dump them on their fields because they still fear famines.
And that happens in all provinces with a big agricultural sector

>>1918957
He was pretty powerful as he had the monopoly on power and what was deemed acceptable and what not.

Our nation’s health work teams are large. They have to concern themselves with over 500 million people [including the] young, old, and ill. … At present, doctors of Western medicine are few, and thus the broad masses of the people, and in particular the peasants, rely on Chinese medicine to treat illness. Therefore, we must strive for the complete unification of Chinese medicine.

t. Mao
Traditional Medicine would have had it harder to survive without these endorsements.
While ancestor worship is alife today, it is despite communist repression-surely showing that if people really want to no state can force them to abandon certain beliefs-but that upperclass chinese are adhering to chinese medicine in particular seems to be a legacy of the state making it easy to justifie adhering to it back then, thus leading to the modern popularity that justifies people in other nations around china to cling to their interpretation of traditional medicine as the thousands of heterogenous folkbeliefs were "unified" aka institutionalised and codified by the communists in the first place.

>>1918882
I meant powerbase as in the national mythology they need to uphold for legitimacy.

>>1917269
>Ending the eternal Steppe Nomad was nothing either.
TBF Russia and the Ottermen helped.

>>1916118
Nothing last for ever
t.burger

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>>1917410
> The Ming was obsessed with centralization
Well, you have to explain Hongwus land reforms and the increase of Agricultural Productivity that led to
>the Ming attempted to shut themselves off and stop naval trade.
YEAH BECAUSE OF FUCKING PIRATES NOT BECAUSE THEY HATED FOREIGNERS. HOLY SHIT THE MING COURT WAS CRAWLING WITH INVITED JESUITS. BANISH THE FACT THAT THE NAVAL BLOCKADE WAS LIKE TWO INCIDENCES AND AROUND A COUPLE OF DECADES EACH.
>They spent all there time holed up in their forbidden city in the far north paranoid about the Mongols while completely neglecting the rich south
Yeah, this is why Ming China totally did not develop Southern China as a trade hub with the Europeans in either Macau, the Philippines, or other trade posts.

>>1918730
But this graph shows a decline during the Great Leap Forward (1955-1960) and a huge growth during the period Mao was largely marginalized in the CCP (1960-1965).

>>1918882
But Maoists are influent. Bo Xilai was extremely popular because he explored Maoist nostalgia.

>>1921148
>but maoists are streaming in, or like as a tributary to a river

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>>1915947
>collectivization put an end to famine
Only Liu Xiaoqi and Deng stopped it from becoming a Taiping-level catastrophe by introducing small private plots, and then they were purged for it

>>1915860
Wtf you are such a dolt with no empathy

Larpers are the worst