Is she, yea I say it, Our Lady?

Yes, the MOTHER of God.

No Mary no Jesus

Know Mary know Jesus.

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>>1883275
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8XE3j_c0U

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at the end
and show us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus:
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Amen.

>>1883271
>Christianity is monotheistic they said

>>1883293
Verses backing up veneration and intercession
Exodus 18:7
Joshua 7:6
1 Kings 13:6

>>1883293
There's a hierarchy dumbass

>>1883298
Quite a few of the other polytheist pagan religions have hierarchies too.

>>1883298
I think is what he meant, is that venerating and asking for miracles or intercession from those seen as holy, is deifying said holy men or women.

>>1883302
Pretty sure he knows that and isn't actually Christian but just trying to be facetious.

>>1883308
I guess at this point I should know that the people responding to troll threads are trolls.

please walk me through this 'our guy' meme

>>1883296
Bowing or asking someone to pray for you is not the same as basically worshiping a maternity goddess.

>>1883298
There's a hierarchy in the Greek pantheon too.

Monotheism is a meme, followers will naturally gravitate towards worshiping what most appeals to them, and a vague omnipresent God doesn't always do the trick. Idol worship and polytheism is the natural state of religion.

>>1883318
>Bowing or asking someone to pray for you is not the same as basically worshiping a maternity goddess.
So basically your only beef here is that she's primarily know for her motherhood?

>>1883322
I'm just not a fan of mental gymnastics. She's a deity in everything but name. And in India or ancient Greece she would be, along with Jesus, the archangels, and a good portion of the saints.

Why do Roman Catholics have so much trouble admitting their religion involves worshipping other gods? if you rules lawyer the commandment it technically says to just not have other gods before Yahweh, so as long as in the end the saints and Mary are subordinate they aren't actually breaking the rules. Seems much more honest than bothering with this whole "veneration" justification.

>>1883327
Because of the "one TRUE God" meme that the Church used to overtake the pagan faiths.

>>1883325
No, you clearly are a fan of mental gymnastics, since you don't see Jews bowing to people and asking for their intercessions as deifying them, but when Christians do it, you see it as deification. The sole criterion of distinction you presented here, is that Mary is a mother and primarily known for her motherhood. Not really surprising, she is the Ark of the New Covenant that is many times more holy than the Ark of the Old Covenant, which only contained the commandments of God; she was the vessel of God himself. You don't see the immense veneration given to the ark of the old testament as deification, but you see such veneration given to the ark of the new testament as deification.

>>1883327
Because saints are just human beings. If a man is particularly holy, we will ask him, while he is on earth, to do things like heal us, and we will bow before him. Obviously calling him a god, however, would be very objectionable, both to him and to us. Because his power is not his own, he does not perform any miracles, God performs them; he literally cannot exist without God constantly willing him to exist; and his nature is innately subject to death and decay, if he gains a place in immortality, it is only through participating in God, not by his own properties.

IIRC what I learned in catholic school, praying to a saint isnt like asking a lesser diety for help but asking someone higher up on the holy food chain to talk to god on your behalf.

>>1883340
Achilles prayed to his mother for help, and the way she did it was by calling in a favour to Zeus.

>>1883342
Yeah but Achillies' mother had a pantheon to choose from, whereas the christian prayers only have one end destination.

>>1883342
Saints don't "call in favors," they ask God without him owing them anything, and they can be, and sometimes are, turned down, as Saint John Chrysostom points out.

>>1883342
And anyway, that sort of thing is completely inappropriate for prayer. Prayer is for things like health (particularly of others), safety, faith, love, contrition, and, most of all, mercy.

>>1883348
Yes, but it illustrates the concept of praying up the celestial foodchain. Had Achillies prayed to Zeus himself he likely wouldn't have answered, but by going through his mother Thetis who had a closer relationship he got what he wanted.

>>1883351
We're talking more in these terms of 1 Kings 13:6

Your example is just Zeus owing a woman a favor, and she helping out her biological son by calling it in; it was hardly common religious practice for Greeks to ask one deity to pray to another deity for them, that was something that was only possible because Achilles was family.

>>1883350
Also, I'd like to point out the Catholic practice of praying to different saints for different things they are patrons of, is not really an Orthodox thing
https://oca.org/questions/saints/patron-saints


We do have nominal patron saints, but it doesn't really have anything to do with different saints having different "jurisdictions," because, like I said you don't sort prayers to different saints based on what they are occasionally called patrons of. Example: Catholic hold Saint Anthony of Padua to be the Patron Saint of Lost Things, so if you lose something, you pray to him. For Orthodox, first off, praying to find something lost is almost never appropriate unless the matter is very, very serious, and secondly if it is serious enough to warrant prayer over, there is no particular saint you'd consult for this situation.

>>1883368
His mother specifically, which is why the comparison is relevant. It's a shift from a biological mother to a metaphorical one, which isn't that big a distance in the grand scheme of things. And it wasn't necessarily uncommon for people to petition Athena, who would use her position as one of Zeus' favorite children to get something done.

Besides, the whole celestial food chain thing was also present outside the Greeks. Akhenaten's monotheism involved strict and exclusive worship of the Aten, but the lay person could not worship themselves. They could only do so through the royal family, who worshipped on their behalf. Same idea.

>>1883383
> And it wasn't necessarily uncommon for people to petition Athena, who would use her position as one of Zeus' favorite children to get something done.
Yes it was. No one went to Athena's temple and asked her to ask Zeus for something. Athena was prayed to for the things she covered, and given honor for being a god, not for being the mother of a god.

>Same idea.
No, not at all. Saints are no more than holy people who intercede for us, they are not a substitute for our own prayer and worship. The guy who posted the food chain bit was posting a Catholic understanding. In Orthodox understanding, follow Saint John Chrysostom, whether or not God will help you rests mostly with you, how contrite you are and your actions; God only works through saints as a way to show recognition for them for how they have excelled as servants, but he will turn them down if your actions and contrition are not being improved.

>>1883395
Here is Saint John Chrysostom on the topic


>And these things we tell you, that you may not hear only, but imitate also his manly severity, his plainness of speech, his righteousness in all things; that no one may despair of himself, though hitherto he have been careless, that he may set his hopes on nothing else, after God's mercy, but on his own virtue. For if these were nothing the better for such a kindred, though they were of the same house and lineage with Christ, until they gave proof of virtue; what favor can we possibly receive, when we plead righteous kinsmen and brethren, unless we be exceeding dutiful, and have lived in virtue? As the prophet too said, intimating the selfsame thing, A brother redeems not, shall a man redeem? No, not although it were Moses, Samuel, Jeremiah. Hear, for example, what God says unto this last, Pray not thou for this people, for I will not hear you. And why do you marvel if I hear not you? Though Moses himself and Samuel stood before me, I would not receive their supplication for these men. Yea, if it be Ezekiel who entreats, he will be told, Though Noah stand forth, and Job, and Daniel, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters. Though the patriarch Abraham be supplicating for them that are most incurably diseased, and change not, God will leave him and go His way, that he may not receive his cry in their behalf. Though again it be Samuel who is doing this, He says unto him, Mourn not thou for Saul. Though for his own sister one entreat, when it is not fitting, he again shall have the same sort of answer as Moses, If her father had but spit in her face.

cont

>>1883400
>
>Let us not then be looking open-mouthed towards others. For it is true, the prayers of the saints have the greatest power; on condition however of our repentance and amendment. Since even Moses, who had rescued his own brother and six hundred thousand men from the wrath that was then coming upon them from God, had no power to deliver his sister; and yet the sin was not equal; for whereas she had done despite but to Moses, in that other case it was plain impiety, what they ventured on. But this difficulty I leave for you; while that which is yet harder, I will try to explain.

>For why should we speak of his sister? Since he who stood forth the advocate of so great a people had not power to prevail for himself, but after his countless toils, and sufferings, and his assiduity for forty years, was prohibited from setting foot on that land, touching which there had been so many declarations and promises. What then was the cause? To grant this favor would not be profitable, but would, on the contrary, bring with it much harm, and would be sure to prove a stumbling-block to many of the Jews. For if when they were merely delivered from Egypt, they forsook God, and sought after Moses, and imputed all to him; had they seen him also lead them into the land of promise, to what extent of impiety might they not have been cast away? And for this reason also, let me add, neither was his tomb made known.

cont

>>1883401
>And Samuel again was not able to save Saul from the wrath from above, yet he oftentimes preserved the Israelites. And Jeremiah prevailed not for the Jews, but some one else he did haply cover from evil by his prophecy. And Daniel saved the barbarians from slaughter, but he did not deliver the Jews from their captivity.

>And in the Gospels too we shall see both these events come to pass, not in the case of different persons, but of the same; and the same man now prevailing for himself and now given up. For he who owed the ten thousand talents, though he had delivered himself from the danger by entreaty, yet again he prevailed not, and another on the contrary, who had before thrown himself away, afterwards had power to help himself in the greatest degree. But who is this? He that devoured his Father's substance.

cont

>>1883404
>So that on the one hand, if we be careless, we shall not be able to obtain salvation, no not even by the help of others; if, on the other hand, we be watchful, we shall be able to do this by ourselves, and by ourselves rather than by others. Yes; for God is more willing to give His grace to us, than to others for us; that we by endeavoring ourselves to do away His wrath, may both enjoy confidence towards Him, and become better men. Thus He had pity on the Canaanitish woman, thus He saved the harlot, thus the thief, when there was none to be mediator nor advocate.

> And this I say, not that we may omit supplicating the saints, but to hinder our being careless, and entrusting our concerns to others only, while we fall back and slumber ourselves.

done

>>1883275
>>1883283
That is such blasphemy

>>1883556
Kys retard protestantcuck the flames of hell are eager to know you...

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>>1883377
We do have St. Fanourios.

>>1883565
Just like Jesus would have said

I never met her, and I already have a mom

>>1883271
Theotokos and Parthenos

>>1883556
In zero(0) ways is this blasphemy.