Vietnam

>>1871749
You'd probably be better off asking /tg/, seeing as they know their history AND their tabletop.

>>1871749
Apocalypse Now is about the Nicaraguan Civil War, anon..

File: come and see.jpg (98KB, 697x534px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 697x534px

>>1871749
Too long didn't read. Watch Come and see. It's schindler's list made by people who actually went through the war and it used real ammunition on child actors. Aside from the shenanigans it's a 10/10 movie

>>1871762
i posted the same thread over there as well. entire board has a slightly stilted view of warfare. plus im not too concerned about the actual running of the game; im moderately experienced as a game runner and have a good system for it.

what i dont have is much education on the subject of Vietnam. ive learned mroe in the last few days about he conflict than i did in all my formal education. i think it comes with being Canadian; the Vietnam conflict was never really a big part of our history.

im just looking for a wide array of perspectives, as well as details and factoids that might enrich the game if i found wayas to incorporate them.

>>1871775
i... i cant tell if you're serious or not. i think the internet has numbed me to sarcasm.

>>1871749
>>1871776

Also apocalypse now isn't just about vietnam. It's basically a vietnam version (including the plot and names) of a book called Heart of darkness" which is set on the land of KANGS, congo

File: war_in_the_shadows.png (160KB, 422x612px) Image search: [Google]

160KB, 422x612px

>>1871786
Read this if you want to know about geurilla tactics and counterinsurgency.
Vol. 2 is almost entirelly dedicated to Vietnam.

>>1871792
reading the novella as we speak. harder to get through a pdf for me though; wish i had a paper copy.

File: mike.png (322KB, 466x281px) Image search: [Google]

322KB, 466x281px

>>1871749

>Neckbeard from /tg/ here who recently watched Apocalypse Now for the first time. For the most part I was blown away and it's instantly become one of my favorite films.

Why stop there?

>jungle warfare
The Vietcong used an intricate tunnel network to launch guerilla attacks, that's pretty fucking cool. Incorporate this into your rpg.

Punji pits, as well as suicide attacks, child spies and napalm strikes are cool.

>politics
really, really indepth that i can't sum up

>world climate
People are waking up after the dream land of the 50's washes off, recession sets in and people see through TV what war is truly like.

>>1871802
I had one, [spoiler]in portuguese[/spoiler].
>>1871807
>america #1!!!111!god bless overdose


Also I have some other PDFs about guerrilas. SOme manuals and shit, very nice. I recommend the mini manual of the urban guerrilla by marigella

>>1871812
>what war is truly like

this is sopmething ive been thinking about a bit. there seems to be this impression in the popular culture that Vietnam was somehow a more savage, more horrifying kind of war. in a way this is sort of true, in terms of hit and run tactics and fighting with very unclear goals and combat lines. but i think that it mostly comes from people finally getting really full in depth coverage of the war itself. it went form a thing happening far away that caused rationing and bond sales into seeing people get incinerated on tv.

>>1871821

>america #1!!!111!god bless overdose

Most of those movies don't actually paint America in a good light.

There was this game from golden age table-top RPGing. The mechanics were clunky, but could be mined if you can find a copy somewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recon_(role-playing_game)

>>1871839
hard to shine a positive light on going into a place without an official declaration of war and ending up half assing it so hard that you spend so much time shipping in porn and rock music to notice your soldiers are all dropping acid and committing war crimes.

then again its not like the opposition were at all noble. handing weapons to civilians, booby trapping your booby traps so the medic gets his legs blown off when he comes to help the first guy... smearing your own shit on already deadly sharpened stakes.

>>1871807
>Not including Hamburger Hill
It was one of the few films based on a real miltary mission of a line infantry company, and shows the futility of that war.

>>1871828
Yeah, it was from the indepth tv coverage. But this isn't the whole story

>ww1 happens
>brits and french come home and realise just how fucked up war really is
>Americans lost almost nothing, still idolize war
>ww2 ensues
>brits and french are more cynical
>americans enter in high spirits
>us takes only a small beating
>leaves 2 thirds richer
>as they fought nazis, they idolize war even more as good vs evil
>vietnam happens
>17 year olds falling in punji pits
>children shot
>napalm
>total coverage
>vietcong are mostly farmers defending homes, can't be demonized very well
>soldiers come home fucked up
>america learns war is terrible the hard way, just like Britain and France did in 1914.

>>1871868
not to mention that whole "systematic system of murder" targeted at people who accepted American support.

>>1871775
it´s an adaptation of Joseph Conrad Heart of Darkness, set in the Belgian Congo in the 19th century

File: 00296.jpg (52KB, 566x379px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 566x379px

>>1871749

I'd recommend this documentary on the psychology of war. It features Michael Herr, a war correspondent who wrote Dispatches as well as the narration for Apocalypse Now and screenplay for Full Metal Jacket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0m573MxXXw

File: mike.png (964KB, 825x497px) Image search: [Google]

964KB, 825x497px

>>1871878

Fine.

>>1871896
>>1871906
>>1871909
thanks very much anon. stuff like this is really great for planning TTRPGs. maps, diagrams, all that stuff.

>>1871807
> Rambo
great documentary you got there

>>1871927

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v189108462nQD3nKa

If you want to do more research this is a very good thing to watch. The time I saw a Vietnam veteran speak, he said that most of the casualties in his unit were always from traps.

>>1871927
Te nada

>>1871913
Better

>>1871935
Are you memeing me here, because Rambo: First Blood Part 1 is actually an excellent movie.

>>1871935
it´s totally a fact that you can really shoot a commie copter with bow and arrows

>>1871959
no it´s actually an exploitation movie full of revenge fantasies

>>1871828
Another big feature was how troop rotations worked in 'Nam.

Normally, you and all your buddies all go off to war at the same time, and all come home at the same time (Those not killed or dismemembered first, of course)

Instead, they rotated in replacements who had to survive for 12 months in a combat zone, and were then rotated home.

You can imagine how this sucks for the people already there, and especially for the FNG who shows up.

It helped people feel like they were just there to do their time, victory wasn't really a goal, and whores, weed, and junk were all that really mattered.

I'm painting very broad strokes, of course, and Special Operations units functioned quite differently, but for the bulk of the combat enlisted, it was pretty fucked up.

>>1871983

>Main character breaks down crying when confronted and ends up in jail
>Revenge fantasy

>>1871991
christ you're right. no wonder it was treated less like war than it was a really aggressive vacation to a worse place in the world.

must have been compounded in people who were drafted. then it becomes something even worse: jury duty.

>>1871983
Part 1 was a little bit more subtle in its exploration of how vets were treated when they came home. He really did just want to be left alone.

Part 2 was were they went full on Jingoistic, commie-killing, POW-rescuing, 80's awesomeness.

Fact: In part 2, Stallone's M-60 was cropped down from it's regular size, because he is not a big guy.

>>1871991
>>1872005

I don't see how shorter rotations makes the war worse somehow.

try to focus on other aspects rather than just the guerilla side too

keep in mind that much of the fighting was between conventional units on both sides with the allied side primarily comprised of the US and ARVN militaries with additional support from australia, nz, south korea, and laos, and the communist side primarily comprised of the PAVN/NVA and the NLF/Viet Cong along with considerable support from the USSR and China.

>>1872005
Plus the VC figured out that "ambush and retreat" was the best way bleed America dry. They also figured out the whole American "Artillery barrage, then helicopters land" doctrine.

Going out patrolling almost guaranteed that any combat that did happen would be kicked off with an ambush, followed by... nothing. It got pretty demoralizing, and by the time any Americans did find a "VC" they were pretty amped for revenge, and human rights weren't too much of a thing.

>>1872020
shifts the soldier focus from "my friends and I have to have each others backs. we're all in this together" to "christ who's this new guy? fuck i just need to get through 3 more months then im outta this dump."

affects the functionality of a unit and morale on the battlefield.

>>1872048
speculated on this the other night with a buddy of mine. after months of having random people turn out to be VC, seeing random squadmates get picked off by a 1 shot sniper who then dissapears and cant be found... that kind of thing wears you down. most people can only be noble for so long.

>>1872020
I realize my post was a little ambiguous.

I meant the normal WW2 style unit cohesion was discarded in Vietnam.

Instead, it's like having a bunch of tempts. The war is already underway, and people are rotating in on an individual level, and rotating out individually as well.

So you have one guy who knew what the hell was going on, some guys that have half a clue, and some cherries who don't know a fucking thing, all in the same unit at the same time, since they've all arrived at different times.

Meanwhile, Guy Who Knows The Deal doesn't give a fuck anymore because he's about to go home, and Fucking New Guy doesn't know shit, and everyone else is like "fuck it's better if he just get's killed early, less suffering all around."

Creating some unique psychological shifts for the participants.

Yes, what
>>1872050
Said

>>1872063
War is hell, man.

File: 60 gunne with belts 01.jpg (83KB, 1435x1156px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 1435x1156px

A great war for photography, though

The pics in this thread make the 60s seem a lot less shitty than I imagined them to be

>>1872136
my impression of the 60s is it was pretty great unless you were at home in America, surrounded by fucking hippies.

>>1871886
>soldiers come home fucked up

and getting spit on, regardless, by people who supposedly get it.
this part always hits me harder than a punji pit.

>WAAH WAR ISN'T GOOD VS EVIL IT SUCKS FOR EVERYBODY
>but not fucking white males let's shit on those guys

>>1872136
What is that even supposed to mean?

>>1872136
Are you referring the M-60, or the '60s decade?

I kind of wish that I had fought in Vietnam, to see all the violence and madness first hand.

To find out how I would react compared to how the people in the movies reacted.

Though I do have a sneaky suspicion that I would probably cry and piss my pants a lot

>>1872178
i want to be in nam so i can watch for gooks in tree line and bang cheap Vietnamese pussi

>>1872178
>I would probably cry and piss my pants a lot
That's just at first
If you lived, you'd probably normalize like most people did.
That's when the PTSD starts.

>>1872004
>weaknesses can't be portrayed as strengths

you can't be that dense

>>1872086

>I meant the normal WW2 style unit cohesion was discarded in Vietnam.

Another factor is that Vietnam War was the first America war to have "integrated" units, meaning Whites and Blacks in the same units. I have heard Vietnam Vets talk about this, and they usually will say that it was not a big issue.....until after Martin Luther King was killed. Before that, there was a sense of "We're all in this together" and nobody cared about race too much. But after the assassination the black GI's no longer felt like they had any stake in the war. Why would you care about anything going on Vietnam when you feel like your people are being killed at home? Malcom X dying drove the wedge even deeper. He wasn't as revered as King, but his death salted the wound.

>>1872184
Plane tickets really aren't that cheap. It's really not too different today.

>>1872192
That is quite interesting.

>>1872194
nah its not the same anymore there arent gooks in the treeline i wont smoke weed out of a shotgun with charlie sheen and also im in college so i cant get drafted

>>1872147
>only white CIS males go to war
What

>>1872147
You realize there were a disproportionate number of black men in vietnam?

>>1872317
right? they even killed laurence fishburne! now whos gonna play nick fury in the avengers movies?!

File: Untitled.png (447KB, 410x449px) Image search: [Google]

447KB, 410x449px

I think the cool thing about Vietnam post 1945 to the late 1960s was the fact that the Vietnamese had many factions fighting for power.

Ho Chi Minh's Stalinist Vs. the Trotskyists (they lost), monarchists, centrists, Binh Xuyen drug lords, Hmong, Cao Dai cultists, Hoa Hao Sect, Catholics, Buddhists, Khmer Krom, DEGAR guerilla, etc. Then there's the PRC,Soviet, Korean troops that arrived later of course.

The Cao Dai cult is my favorite. They believe Jesus, Buddha, Confucious, Lenin, Nguyen Khiem, Shakesphere, Moses, Victor Hugo, Sun Yat-Sen, Muhammad, Pericles, etc. are all religious saints in their religion.

I honestly think it would be interesting to hear more about these factions than just your typical Viet war movie.

>>1872443

>They believe Jesus, Buddha, Confucious, Lenin, Nguyen Khiem, Shakesphere, Moses, Victor Hugo, Sun Yat-Sen, Muhammad, Pericles, etc. are all religious saints in their religion.

How the fuck does that even work?

>>1872443
All of the factions that weren't commies or Ngo Dinh Diem got killed by 1955.

How do you think that windowlicker got into power, he was the only nationalist that wasn't a communist, and hadn't been killed by either the French or Viet Minh.

>>1872455
its like an alex jones version of a cult. "EVERYONES A SAINT. SHAKESPERE INVENTED WATER FiLTERS."

File: Arc Lite run.jpg (28KB, 400x263px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 400x263px

>I'm putting together a Tabletop RPG game using the 'Nam RPG 'Grunt'.

Nigga, do an RPG based on LRRPs.

It has all the classic RPG elements without any need to fictionalize.

>small party composed of mighty warriors
>random encounters with villagers
>jungle is filled with snakes and tigers and shit
>little to no resupply, have to forage and bug villagers for their food
>magic radio that can bring down thunder in response to the right words
>flying steeds

ITT:
It Ain't Me, the RPG.

>>1871779

get your hands on some 7.62

with that in mind, be sure to hit up /k/.

Vietcong were known for some horrible man traps.

>>1871776

choice digits

Come and See is a GREAT film, but it's Soviet propaganda.

>they really shot the fuck out of the kid with a machinegun

omfg

>>1871749
You should have the command be retarded as possible since they did artillery strikes on places the helicopters were going to land, painting a giant-fucking target for the Vietcong. You should also have a mechanic where soldiers perform terribly over lack of experience, and when they reach Level 8 or 10, then have them rotate out because their ToD ended. Then you should have the soldiers be rallied over their amazing air support, then realize it's fuck-all worthless if they're on patrol into the jungle.

Oh, and if you want to have tunnel rats, make sure you have it where only sizes Small through Medium can enter the tunnels. No flamethrower guy gets in unless they have satchel charges and digging equipment. GOOD LUCK GETTING REQUISITION FORMS FOR THAT.

MHV did some videos about helicopter and riverine tactics used by the US forces in Vietnam.
Helicopter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyH952sWHdo
Riverine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvk2M2qdaoY

I love his videos but not everyone can handle his accent/autism level. Might help add detail and authenticity to the campaign though.

>>1872317

Nope.

http://history-world.org/vietnam_war_statistics.htm

>88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian; 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% belonged to other races.
>86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics); 12.5% (7,241) were black; 1.2% belonged to other races.

>>1872717
Not that anon, but it probably was perceived as "the black man gets sent to die for the White Man's war" because of what >>1872192 mentioned. When your racial group feels disenfranchised and dissociated from the nation, then any amount of dying for a country seems like too much.
This sentiment was probably fostered by the anti-war demagogues back home, who "proved" it was true using the 2% overrepresentation in deaths or just with faulty numbers. After the 60s and the war was over, these narratives became internalized in the national consciousness, even if they weren't necessarily true.

>>1872797
Around '67 the DoD actually went out of their way to normalize the KIA ratios by putting less black people in the infantry.

Before that it was somewhat true.

File: The_Short_timers_Cover.jpg (24KB, 254x393px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 254x393px

Read "The Short-Timers". The book that "Full Metal Jacket" was based on

File: fivefingers-754134.jpg (36KB, 254x400px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 254x400px

Also The Five Fingers is an excellent read about an elite LRRP team and what they run into.

It is pretty far fetched at times, but gives a really good feel of being far behind enemy lines, deep in the jungle, charlie all around, and being operator as hell.

>>1871749

Suggested Characters:


>Black Militant: Affiliated with left-wing groups back in the US. Cares more about recruiting others to his cause (especially other blacks) more than anything to do with the war. Will actively undermine unit cohesion by distributing communist literature during down-time. From California. Smokes Marijuana. Probably identifies as Muslim. Will attempt to recruit “Educated Black” if they end up together. If paired with “White Racist” expect them to have severe issues.

>White Racist: The exact opposite of the Black Militant. Becomes confrontational and unpleasant when near any POC. Will be especially resentful if he encounters a POC who outranks him. If paired with “Educated Black” for long enough, he might change his mind and become “cured.” If paired with “Militant Black” expect one of them to kill the other. Drinks alcohol. From Alabama.

>The True Believer: Signed up as soon as he heard there was a war. Believes in the mission. Comes from long line of military heroes. Won’t tolerate any talk of losing the war. May become “jaded” if he finds out that he has accidentally killed a civilian, or if he finds out that others in his unit are killing civilians. Ignorant of all racial issues. Never does drugs, but may become an alcoholic if he becomes “jaded.” From Texas with Mexican heritage.

>>1873050

>South Vietnamese: A south Vietnamese soldier, basically. Fills the important role of translator. Unlike other soldiers, this one will never become jaded because he has the most at stake in the conflict. He and his family will be killed if they lose. Most likely Buddhist. Will get along best with “True Believer.” Other characters will regard him with suspicion simply because his is Vietnamese. From Vietnam.

>Educated Black: A draftee from a black family that escaped poverty through hard work. A bit of a nerd, he just wants to do his time and get home as soon as possible. Doesn’t initially do drugs but can be convinced to smoke Marijuana as the tension of jungle warfare starts to grind him down like everybody else. Likes Jazz music and will attempt to sing Louis Armstrong songs during downtime. From Delaware.

>>1873050
>distributing communist literature during down time

isnt this the kind of thing that gets you fragged by the entire platoon?

>>1873050
I like it. You could cover all the tropes from the major Vietnam films to round it out.

>>1873060
By the time fragging was actually a thing, nobody in country thought the war could be won.

>>1871749
If you want to understand the Vietnam war, the only way is through primary sources - diaries, reports, pictures, and films.

If you want to better appreciate Apocalypse Now, the only way is by reading Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. It's a short book but requires a lot of attention while reading it. I recommend at least two readings.

>>1872152
I imagine everyone alive in the 60s to be scumbag trust fund baby boomers who are 2deep4u and high on drugs all the time and total hedonists. But some of the dudes in this picture seem like normal guys who worked jobs and didn't play hackysack in front of the white house for months on end

>>1873163
A lot changed in between 1964 and 1970.

And the infantrymen were always the least scummy of the bunch.

The real dickbags just didn't join at all. 75% of the US troops that fought in Vietnam were volunteers.

That shit cost America's innocence the way WW1 did for Europe.

File: 21D2863A-8CC8-4776-A7ED-ECF3093E1490-332-0000001F8D1F21E9_tmp.jpg (36KB, 640x450px) Image search: [Google]

36KB, 640x450px

SOME FOLKS ARE BORN

File: QobwBwu[1].jpg (165KB, 1175x795px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 1175x795px

>>1871749

>>1873163
>everyone alive in the 60s to be scumbag trust fund baby boomers who are 2deep4u and high on drugs all the time and total hedonists.

That is as realistic as imagining everyone in the 1920's as being (illegally imported) champagne-sipping millionaire fat cats with monocles and Packards, or everyone in the 1980's being coke-snorting Reaganite wall-street millionaires.

Sure, some people certainly were, but society is pretty multi-layered, amigo.

>>1873229

I can't even imagine.

File: 1357343338285.jpg (135KB, 1280x853px) Image search: [Google]

135KB, 1280x853px

It was a golden age for combat journalism, that's for sure.

LIFE magazine was so based.

>>1871749

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/163068/Patrol--A-Vietnam-War-Roleplaying-Game

Before committing a lot of time to something, it is always a good idea to see if somebody else has already done that thing.

>>1873269
>A unique d6 pool system allows for the introduction of complications and twists to any roll with simple skills and only a handful of stats. Thanks to the always-ticking clock, every action is fail-forward as time pressure is constant. A simple but powerful system of status effects and opposed alignments drive players into conflict with one another as, in their desperation, they become incentivized to act irrationally.

Maybe OP wanted to make a Vietnam war RPG that had a less retarded sounded rule mechanic, though.

But yes, there are multiple RPGs that take plac in this era, and could be easily mined to make a better game.

>>1871991
To play on what this guy said I remember reading that in WW2 pacific front an average G.I. wouldnt actually be in life or death combat for very long out of his time on tour

In Vietnam with the advent of the helicoptor the G.I.s were more than like doubly so to face life and death combat. For some units to a ridiculous day to day basis

that really fucked the psychology of the soldiers where life and death came from any tree branch or hole int he ground

hope that helps