Boshin War

Umm, I don't know much about boshin wars and menji restoration, but the last samurai is a terrible terrible movie.

>>1868669
Fuck you

>>1868646
>Were the Imperial forces the good guys, turning over their sword to make their country stronger?
Literally "LET'S PRETEND TO DISENFRANCHISE OURSELVES BUT REALLY LETS JUST GIVE OURSELVES EUROPEAN-STYLE TITLES, WEAR THEIR COSTUMES, AND SHOVE ALL EX-SAMURAI IN MILITARY SERVICE IN MODERN ARMIES AND CONTINUE BEING JAPAN'S ELITES AS BEFORE."

>>1868646
It's the nature of time
That the old ways must give in
It's the nature of time
That the new ways comes in sin

>>1868807
IMPERIAL FORCE DEFIED
FACING 500 SAMURAI!
SURROUNDED, AND OUTNUMBERED
60 TO 1, THE SWORD FACE THE GUN!

>>1868646
I like the Boshin War, I think its often overlooked or downplayed when talking about the Meiji Restoration but I understand why as often the ideals and actual modernization going on at the time usually takes its place.
To answer your questions:
>Because many have a false image of the samurai especially by the mid-19th century and also it makes a simple dichotomy which makes for an easy narrative for casuals

>I wouldn't say there were good guys. I think each faction was fighting for their best interests and the Imperial one understood a bit better than with modernizing Japan was sure to be another China in terms of colonial powers manipulating it

>I think its important to note that the Meiji Restoration was still done by samurai, low ranking but still of the noble class. To label people as bad or good is tricky if not impossible but imo their time had passed due to their poor economic decisions and lack of farsightedness in terms of Japan's future

>They weren't really protecting their culture so much as they were they power. The samurai culture as many think about changed largely over the course of the Edo Period. Samurai went from soldier to administrators and fell largely into debt as merchants gained wealth. There are stories of samurai even selling their swords for more cash.

>I think it was really sad but a pretty intense last stand.

>I've only seen The Last Samurai and not for years but I really liked it mostly because it looked cool

>>1868646
>pic
WE

>>1868646

It was a war to keep up the "status quo" defended by the shogunate, because they feared that the western way of life could infringe them in their benefits.
Somewhat similar to the knights in medieval Europe.
The true samurai gave up their whole "honorable warrior" stick after their last big civil war, they acted as nobility with their benefits.
Now somebody comes, abuses your whole country and makes you fear for your standing in society, when some stupid merchant can make a lot of money and benefit the same (or even higher) standing than you.
That combined with the whole Bushido hyper-honor-"nationalism"
>You get the Boshin war

If you want to learn about the last samurai search for this YouTube who analyzes movies with their historical counterparts (I forgot his name)

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>>1868646
>Why do we portray the samurai as not using rifles when they specifically did?

It was for many reasons the great swordsmen of the revolution who were romanticized.
Ironically after the war swordsmanship was seen as antiquated and and authentic schools of samurai swordsmanship almost died out completely

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I remember looking into this and being interested in the Byakkotai, a unit of Teenage Samurai that committed suicide after thinking that their castle was breached.

>>1868995

I don't think you understand what Irony means.

>>1868646
>What does /his/ think of the Boshin war?
it made for a good total war game

>>1869052

One of the best

>>1869052
This.

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>What does /his/ think of the Boshin war?

Interesting little war, been heavily romanticised in Japan, entirely forgotten elsewhere. Lots of fascinating characters.

>Why do we portray the samurai as not using rifles when they specifically did?

I think only The Last Samurai did this. Unless you're thinking of the many representations of the Shisengumi, who did use swords but were more of a pro-Bakufu paramilitary or special police force.

>Were the Imperial forces the good guys, turning over their sword to make their country stronger?

The slogan and philosophy of the Imperial forces was "Revere the Emperor, expel the barbarians." Emperor Komei gave the order to expel foreigners and break the unequal treaties in 1863, but obviously the Bakufu wasn't too keen on pretty much declaring war on all of the world's great powers. Rebellions broke out but were quickly put down by Bakufu forces, including one where rebels tried to take Kyoto, there were a few killings of foreigners. Of course the Western powers demanded huge reparations, and bombarded some coastal cities. The Shogun couldn't pay, so instead he opened up another port. This just weakened the Bakufu, and created even more anti-western sentiment.

But Komei died in 1867, his successor, Meiji was 15. The Shogun made a deal, saying that he would keep his land, but that he would agree to give up some of his powers. The deal was made, and then entirely ignored, as the Emperor, or rather the Choshu and Satsuma elements around him, tried to seize his land. So war broke out.

The aim of the pro-Imperial forces was never give up any of their power. That came after, and many samurai who had supported the Emperor turned against him.

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>>1869289
>Were the shogunate bad guys just wanting to maintain power over peasants?

No. The Bakufu just thought it would be foolish to try to stand up to the West. And it frankly it was, Japan was lucky the West agreed to stay neutral during the war, and that, more importantly, despite all their talk of "Expelling the barbarians" the first thing the new Imperial government did was reassure France, Britain, the US, Russia, etc, that everything was fine, that no treaties would be broken, that in fact they should all come invest and help them modernise. This could have ended in some kind of Boxer Rebellion intervention.

>Were the samurai right in protecting their culture?

Well, the pro-Imperial samurai wanted to protect their culture and were against westernisation. But they got fucked after the war. Their privileges were progressively reduced. Which sparked the Satsuma rebellion in 1877. But this was hardly about "samurai culture", this was about power and opposition to westernisation.

>Was Shiroyama fucking awesome?

Shiroyama is a last stand by proud men. 10 to 1, against more modern weaponry. The last charge, sword drawn against Imperial positions was a collective suicide after the death of their leader.

>Is an objectively better depiction of the war than The Last Samurai?

Sure, because When the Last Sword is Drawn is actually a depiction of the Boshin war. The Last Samurai is an mix of the end of the Boshin war when Bakufu forces holed up in a fort in Hakodate with French officers who refused to obey the order to stay neutral proclaimed the "Republic of Edo", and the Satsuma Rebellion.

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>>1869289
>>1869388
Here's a bunch of links about the war, it's context and it's effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Expedition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakumatsu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonn%C5%8D_j%C5%8Di
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boshin_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ezo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwakura_Mission
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_Rebellion

The Bakumatsu period, the war and the rapid modernisation of Japan afterwards are a topic I find fascinating, so I really encourage you to click on all the links in the articles, and then check out the sources.

I'll dump a few pictures related to the topic too.

>>1869388
>No. The Bakufu just thought it would be foolish to try to stand up to the West. And it frankly it was, Japan was lucky the West agreed to stay neutral during the war, and that, more importantly, despite all their talk of "Expelling the barbarians" the first thing the new Imperial government did was reassure France, Britain, the US, Russia, etc, that everything was fine, that no treaties would be broken, that in fact they should all come invest and help them modernise.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. I agree the bakafu didn't think they could win against western and probably used there closed country policy to legitimize trying to keep the foreigners out.

That being said, I think you're keeping it a bit to simple with the Imperial faction. While maybe initially they're ultimate goal was to expel the barbarians and follow through on all the kokugaku rhetoric being written at the time, once Emperor Meiji was restored the slogan changed to "enrich the nation, strengthen the armies" and I think from a political realist standpoint the Imperial faction understood that literally expelling the barbarians could only end in disaster for the small country and so it took a more symbolic turn as a form of pro-japanese nationalism. Instead they realized the best way to achieve their goal was to continue trade and relations with the west both to modernize and quickly and not start a war they couldn't win

Japanese impire is fake, Meiji was first real japanese imperor, previous 2 was real humans, but without any power or dynasty. Emperors of 18- centuries are falsifications, there evenno any photo or good portrairs of them.

Shogunat was colonial republic established by Britain and France. It was braked with help USA.

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>>1869481
You're absolutely right, I should have expanded more on that. I agree that that that was the point of view of some of the political leadership of the Imperial faction, but then what do you make of Saigo Takamori's rebellion ? You couldn't have a found a more pro-Emperor samurai in Japan at the start of the war, but clearly he didn't agree with how the modernisation was handled. You also have the assasination Okubo Toshimichi by samurai, right after the Satsuma rebellion. I'd say that shows that a portion (maybe the more idealistic or extremist side) of the pro-Imperial forces truly believed all the Sonno Joi slogans and were not expecting the rapid modernisation and westernisation Japan went through after the war.

>>1869504
>Japanese impire is fake, Meiji was first real japanese imperor, previous 2 was real humans, but without any power or dynasty. Emperors of 18- centuries are falsifications, there evenno any photo or good portrairs of them.

wat

>Shogunat was colonial republic established by Britain and France.

I mean, some people argue that the Boshin was a proxy war between France and Britain, but still.

>It was braked with help USA.

The US had worse problems between 1863 and 1869 than the Boshin war and the events leading up to it.

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>>1869680
Shit, made a few typos, I should have reread before posting.

>>1869680
I see what you mean too. I think a lot of it had to do with the young samurai who began the rebellion not actually having a clear endgame as far as what the Meiji Restoration would entail.

Saigo Takamori's rebellion stemmed from what had traditionally been samurai exclusive privileges under the Tokugawa (especially the exclusive right to carry weapons) being curbed as Japan started to feel out what it meant to be a nation in the 19th century. Okubo's assassination too, probably stemmed from the anger coming from samurai who supported the overthrow of the bakufu and were angry when it backfired on them as a class. I think much of it comes from the lack of real purpose beyond restoring the emperor.

If anything the shifting of slogan from sonno joi to fukoku kyouhei represents the better outlining of a real direction for the movement now that the emperor had been successfully reinstalled as the head of Japan and its was this shift that probably caused a divide between the samurai leaders of the new government. I'm sure there were many proponents of getting rid of the barbarians but the larger (and more realistic) side won out

>>1869680
Try to google any information about japanese "emperors" from other countries of current time - allmost nothing. Native japanese history have written after Restauration.
>The US had worse problems between 1863 and 1869 than the Boshin war and the events leading up to it.
Strategic goal of USA is China. So it wasnt continue to conquer Mexica or Carribean islands, but steadily going to west - pacific coast, Philipines, Hawaii. Decolonisation of Japan was first step to prevent european colonisation of China.

>>1868669
>but the last samurai is a terrible terrible movie.
Sudoku yourself

>>1869450
Why did old japanese cities look like mazes?

>>1869037
I think its pretty ironic to lionize a group of people and then pan the institutions that made them what they were

>>1869052
The engine was still potatoe

>>1869440
>that portrayal of an african labourer

Why so bully?

How much history would've changed if the Shogunate came out on top in the Boshin War? Could the Shogunate have even won the war?

>>1869052
Never played Fall of the Samurai because I refused to pay the same price as the base game for expansion that added elements that were removed from the base game

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>>1868819
AND THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED

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>>1869006
>be Oda Nobunaga
>can have any woman in Japan
>chooses pic related

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mori_Ranmaru

>What does /his/ think of the Boshin war?
not as fun as the nobunaga days
>Why do we portray the samurai as not using rifles when they specifically did?
we don't.
>Were the Imperial forces the good guys, turning over their sword to make their country stronger?
"good" is subjective.
>Were the shogunate bad guys just wanting to maintain power over peasants?
"bad" is subjective.
>Were the samurai right in protecting their culture?
"right" is subjective.
>Was Shiroyama fucking awesome?
in my opinion, yes.
>Is When the Last Sword is Drawn an objectively better depiction of the war than The Last Samurai?
you do not seem to understand the difference between "objective" and "subjective". this is common on this board, thank god we have "& humanities" to sort this out. WtLSiD is in my opinion a better movie, but neither are historically accurate in any way.

>>1868819
BUSHIDO

D I G N I F I E D

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>>1869052
Tsu

>>1868963
I wanna see a show now about the war but reversed in a world where England is forced to modernize and there is a last stand with them instead.

>the only thing people on /his/ know about the Boshin war is from video games, shitty movies and a Sabaton song

This board was a mistake.

>>1872897
CANNONBALLS ARE COMING DOWN FROM THE SKY
JANISSARIES, ARE YOU READY TO DIE?
WE WILL SEEK OUR VENGEANCE EYE FOR AN EYE

The Sengoku period (especially the Christianization of Kyushu, with all that Jesuit intrigue Omura drama, and then the suppression of Christians there) is more interesting to me, but Bakumatsu is still super fun to read about. I always wonder what would have happened to Hokkaido had the Battle of Hakodate somehow turned out differently, especially in terms of how that would changed Meiji/Taisho/early Showa Japan.

>>1869052
revolt mechanics was dumb

couldn't deal with it after playing attila