French Indochina

>Where did it all go wrong?

In all seriousness, French administration

That shit is the kiss of death for a country.

>>1860398
>That shit is the kiss of death for a country.
Are you saying that the French were bad rulers over their entire colonial empire? What other examples were there?

>>1860398
French admnistration has been God-tier for most of its history though?

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>>1860406

>>1860381
Nah.
French failed at colonization. Every former colony of theirs is a complete failure.

>>1860405
Well, they got chased out of Algeria under similar circumstances.

Most of Francophone Africa is broken.

Sure, Britain produced a ton of failed states, but they also produced places like Singapore that were good.

The best off French colony I can think of is Morocco.

I'm also pretty sure this is why Louisiana is the worst state in the US. Residual Frenchness.

>>1860420
I blame Vichy French rule. Everything was running smoothly before the WW2.

>>1860412
I'm serious though. Charlemagne oversaw France becoming the first centralized state in Europe, in which his successors followed him by extending the King's royal domain, and with kings such as Louis IX re-inventing judicial systems, Phillip-Augustus refining state treasury, and Napoléon elaborating the Code Civil now most common in Europe.

But yeah watever we're on /his/ so let's discuss "memes" then.

>>1860429
Nah, the French were pretty fucked before WW2.

There were people protesting on the streets with signs that said "better Hitler than this" because the Socialists had gotten into office.

Their total inability to function as a government is why they got clobbered by Germany in the first place.

Popular history overlooks this, but there's simply no way that Germany should have been able to go from the 100,000 man army specified by the Treaty of Versailles to conquering the world's greatest land power of the time.

>>1860442
>Their total inability to function as a government is why they got clobbered by Germany in the first place.
>Popular history overlooks this, but there's simply no way that Germany should have been able to go from the 100,000 man army specified by the Treaty of Versailles to conquering the world's greatest land power of the time.
Fair enough. But do French military defeats translate into colonial incompetence?

>>1860433
France has pretty much been fucked since the Revolution.

Ever since then, the left and right, rural and urban, Protestant and Catholic, monarchist and republican were constantly tearing into each other and fucking up everything in the process.

>>1860420
>Singapore that were good.
>a city-state the British purposefully designed to be their rich trade-center remains rich to this day
No kidding?

The French had little of such city-states in which they would heave their reaping from colinization though, hence now they're bereft of similar little successful city-states formerly under their rule.

And quite sincerely the best former French colony is Lebanon, Gabon and Guinea.

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>>1860381
>Where did it all go wrong?
>Why did it end?

France got humiliated in WW2 which caused its colonies to stop respecting it and revolt

Pretty much the same thing that happened to the Spanish Empire after France humiliated Spain in the Napoleonic Wars

>>1860414
Every non-settlement colonies are failure
Reminder that Britain spawned only four successful colonies out of the hundreds they had

>>1860449
Well, the same underlying causes triggered both.

Constant political infighting and a lack of unified political policy.

The civilian government in France was incapable of administrating a military, because the government would change every couple of months, and the military was too right wing and Catholic to be considered politically reliable.

The extreme right wing kept France from being able to disengage from their colonies in the calculated, orderly fashion that Britain did.

The French military actually invaded Corsica in a successful bid to intimidate parliament into creating a presidential system under De Gaulle, and then tried to kill De Gaulle when he decided Algeria was lost.

The simple fact that France went through three republics in between 1940 and 1959 explains why their colonies didn't do as well as Britain's.

>>1860420
>Sure, Britain produced a ton of failed states, but they also produced places like Singapore that were good.

City-states always do good
The French created Monaco which does well
Even fucking muslims managed to create successful city-states, that tells how easy it is

>>1860455
>>1860481
Lebanon and Guinea have both experienced state failure.

Meanwhile, Britain has produced places like Kenya and Botswana that function perfectly well.

Even India, the world's second most populous country, ended up having a stable, functional republic, albeit one crippled by corruption.

Of course, they've also produced total basket cases like Burma and Sudan.

>>1860451
True, but there's been breaks in-between, especially with the Second French Empire that strangled those tensions throughout its rule for a more resolute leadership to emerge, and French Indochina, and French colonialism as a whole in Africa transpired mostly under the days of the Second French empire.

Of course there were the inconsistencies of the Third Republic later that shattered this coherence in how France supervised its colonies, with how some presidents favored colonialism while others reviled it.

But it still stands that French Indochina didn't suffer the retardation of the Third Republic all the way through. They had the days of the French Second empire, which left its marl there.

>>1860489
Well, after 1945, there was intense pressure placed on all of the world's colonial empires.

Europe had self destructed, and the US and USSR had emerged as the world's two superpowers.

As much as they hated each other, both of them disliked the European colonial empires.

Britain happened to have some talented leaders and a good civil service, and the political cohesion to create a strategy for their colonies and execute it across the globe.

France didn't. Their state was not strong enough to confront the military, and they ended up stuck in doomed fights until the bitter end.

France picked a pretty bad time to go to shit, and it cost them Algeria and Indochina.

While we are on topic, can anyone recommend good reads on French Indochina?

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>>1860507
>Algerian war

Don't think anyone here regrets it one bit. Least of all my grandfather.

>>1860535
>rape Algerian grill
>lose her to Big Hamid when suitcase or coffin comes down
Even when the French win they are still cucked.

>>1860543
>caring that the grill goes back to her husband when you've already cucked him

But true, the Algerian war was one gigantic custerfuck.

>>1860488
>Meanwhile, Britain has produced places like Kenya and Botswana that function perfectly well.

They're shitholes man
Maybe not on the same tier as other British colonies like Zimbabwe, Somalia or Iraq, but still shitholes
That's a "my shit is pretty good lokking for a human dejection" tier argument
And India is a competitor for the worst shithole on Earth
You're trying too hard

>>1860522
Stanley Karnow's Vietnam is mostly about the US war, but it has a couple chapters of intro about Indochina and its own history.

>>1860558
Thanks.
>>1860548
It really was.

>>1860557
Kenya looks a lot better than Algeria, and Malaysia looks a lot better than Indochina.

Even Burma was at least able to kill all the commies.

Also, I need to point out

>other British colonies like Somalia

Nigga that one's Italy's fault.

And "city-states don't count" is pure asspull.

No shit you don't want people looking at places like Hong Kong and Singapore, because they're examples of how great British administration could be.

>>1860535
>>1860543
It wasnt rape btw
It was counter-insurgency
Muslim women used to shave their puss when their guerrilla husband had planned to visit them at night, so French troops had no other choice than to strip women naked to see if a visit was planned.
And of course when a soldier is put near a naked woman, some unfortunate stuff may happen, but you caan't resist the call of nature

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On scale of 1 to 10, how successful was this as an example of counter-insurgency?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Algiers_(1956%E2%80%9357)

>>1860607
Fun fact, when the US invaded Iraq, the DoD had a special movie night where they played the Battle of Algiers as an example of how to succeed on a tactical level and fail on a strategic level.

But yeah, all the torture and extrajudicial killings poisoned French support for the war effort to the point where it more than negated the tactical success of physically removing the FLN from Algiers.

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>Wake up anon. Remember, I'm general Massu and we're in Algiers to smoke out those Algerian fucking shits. Naturally, torture, executions and forced disapperances are on the table. You up for it anon?

What do you say?

>>1860624
>don't worry sir, we'll make this a shining success, like in Bien Dien Phu

>>1860414
>failure
>implying this wasn't intentional

France was still extorting billions of dollars from piss-poor Haiti in 1948, for fuck's sake. As compensation for lost "property".

They were Spain-level awful.

>>1860617
>torture and extrajudicial killings poisoned French support for the war effort to the point where it more than negated the tactical success of physically removing the FLN from Algiers.
Indeed, and internationally France became reviled as that nation desperatly grasping at Algeria with too severe a cost, and it was to be plagued with embargoes from many countries, a,d would frequently be absent to UN meetings throughout that era, which unilaterally protested the actions of France.

See: http://www.ina.fr/video/CAF91049859

Back when we were the "bad boy" of the world. Pshh... nothing personal Algeria....
>Fun fact, when the US invaded Iraq, the DoD had a special movie night where they played the Battle of Algiers as an example of how to succeed on a tactical level and fail on a strategic level.
Did not know this. Thank you.

>>1860631
>Watch your tongue anon. Don't you know my credentials: Civilian authorities left all prerogatives to General Jacques Massu who, operating outside legal frameworks between January and September 1957, successfully eliminated the FLN from Algiers.

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>>1860648
Well I won't dull you with the entire video, but here's what you should be noticing:

>>1860648
And then, of course, the dingleberries that Bush appointed for his national security team repeated the same mistake at Abu Ghraib and Bagram Air Field.

Remember kids, kissing ass gets you a lot farther than knowing what you're doing.

>>1860381
On a side note, i once dreamt that i was in Serbian Indochina. I woke up when i realized i was chewing on grasshoppers i bought from the local gook. Went to the bathroom and brush my teeth, because i dreamt i was eating a fucking bug.

Don't play Victoria 2 more than 5 hours per day.

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How were the French such absolute madman in this war?

Are there banter genes in the French that are triggered when he fights against the Algerians?

>>1860771
I once had a dream where I was in class and I opened up a mechanical pencil.

Woke up and felt really sick.

Turned out my appendix crapped out during the night.

>>1860557
Britain only controlled SomaliLand, a northern section of Somalia. Even today Somaliland is comparatively more successful then Somalia or Eritrea and even some other African nations.

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French civilian were genocided and mass raped in oran sadly :( rip grandpa

thank you for the sandwiches friends

>>1860381
The French.

>>1860624
Can I bring my kukri?

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>>1860381
>Where did it all go wrong?
When the French showed up.
>Why did it end?
When they succumbed to their genetic heritage and surrendered.
>Wasn't it a good thing for enlightening the natives?
>French
>enlightening
wew
>>1860398
This guy gets it

>>1860398
Shut the fuck up anglo

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>>1860381
>Where did it all go wrong?

This is a good book on the situation in Vietnam. The war simply became too expensive and too unpopular in France, and initially the only troops available were colonial units from Morocco, Algeria, Senegal, and Tunisia, as well as the French Foreign Legion (which in the early stage of the war was mostly ex-Wehrmacht).

>>1862656
Thanks. So France had its own Vietnam Syndrome before the United States?

>>1860381
I can understand the New World but seriously why did France go all the way to South East Asia to make colonies?

>>1862707
because the British had already gotten all the land closer.

>>1862715
Not much sooner than them though
The 2nd half of the 19th century is the moment France and Britain went full retard and colonized all they could

>>1862756
>France and Britain went full retard and colonized all they could
They certainly colonized, but I don't see how it was going full retard.

>>1862767
Because they stopped even looking for reasons
When France invaded Algeria in 1830, it was justified (pirates...etc)
But the later colonial invasions were like "I invade this place because lmao"

>>1862775
Ruthless and dickish, sure. But they enriched themselves fabulously. Isn't that what nations are supposed to do?

>>1860381
Letting some of them getting educated.

It's always the people that go study in France and come back that start shit.

>>1860481
>The French created Monaco
No.

>>1862790
>The British created Singapore

You know what he meant
Both Singapore and Monaco were owned by France for a time and are successful as a result

>>1862791
by France and Britain* (respectively)

>>1862779
This

>>1861196
They later occupied all of Somalia, so thats not an argument

>>1862803
YOURE NOT AN ARGUMENT EITHER

>>1862791
>Monaco were owned by France
>owned
Lies

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Hasn't the French always been banter masters when it comes to fucking around with the natives of countries they roll into?

>>1862938
this film isn't an example franch weren't bad with american native

>>1862938

actually we had pretty good relationships with north american natives, except with the few tribes allied with anglos

we had way less settlers than anglos, so we had to be friendly with natives in order to control the land

>>1860557
>abloobloo, india is the worst in everything.
No u.

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>>1862938
>tfw natives actually wanted to be under the french instead of the brits

We failed them.

>>1863340
Don't make me post pics of the Designated Corpse River

>>1862915
>Between 1793 and 1814 Monaco was occupied by the French (in this period much of Europe had been overrun by French under command of Napoleon).[23][26]

>>1863605
In another life...

>>1860420
Try again nigger. Louisiana is in the mess it is right now because of yankee "reconstruction" New Orleans was one of the richest ports in the world for a very long time.

>the best French colony I can think of
Try thinking a bit harder then

>>1860456
Thanks for contributing to the high level of discourse" here friend

>>1863632
>Spain is now a French colony

nah

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The French did plenty of agreements with the local kings and emperors, who would often live in a realm of luxury and not particularly care about their people.
The French introduced firearms, the grenade and the latin alphabet to the Indochinese.
Initially, they would just go there on some ocasional errants, looking for far away trade posts only to return with little at hands.
As time progressed and the french grew stronger, this process intensified, and the result is what you see in that map.
In the 19th century, there were many rebellions in Vietnam which were usually supressed by French colonials, and sometimes the rebels would get a concession or so, but it was still little in their own eyes.
Eventually, WW2 Japan came in with the promise of a free Asia but they did exactly what the French had done with them. Exactly.
It was only after Japan withdrew and Indochina finally became free of foreing occupation that a civil war errupted, with three sides: nationalists, pro USA and pro Chinese/Soviet. The nationalists were so quickly crushed they often dont make it even to history books, and everything after it became known as the Vietnam War.

My European History class hasn't gotten to colonization yet, but from what I remember from earlier studies is that the french mainly "extorted" (lack of better word) their colonies. They wanted the reward but did not invest in its success. The English tended to fund infrastructure from bridges to telegraph lines and often sent a large amount of their own to run the country's bureaucracy in the government or command the industry in the private sector.

>>1862662
Nigger, france OWNED vietnam before america went in.

>>1860381
French Indochina was the best colony France had. Prove me wrong.
>Protip: you can't

>>1867784
No they didn't
China controlled Vietnam before America went in

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>>1868218

>>1868305
your fucking dumb

>>1868083
Just like India was the best colony England had.

Unless you don't mean in terms of raw productiveness?

>>1868408
I meant to live in.

>>1868414
Oh. Then I guess I agree if Acadia doesn't count.

>>1868414
>>1868432
NO YOU DUMB SHITS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation_colonialism
IT WAS SHIT

>>1868444
Yes, but if you have to choose between desert, sub-saharan rain forest, island in the middle of nowhere or Indochina, you might as well pick the place that has amazing ruins.

Why did the French leave after DBP? Couldn't they have sent in more people and kicked the Viet Minh's collective ass?

>>1868473
>ruins
AND THATS THE FUCKING FRANCES FAULT ANYWAY

>>1868478
Are you Vietnamese?

>>1868486
Kâmpŭchéa

>>1868499
I didn't know any Cambodians had Internet access.

>>1868506
No thanks to fucking Frnance

>>1868478
>Cambodian
Weren't the Khmer gone centuries before the French got there?

Ruins was a wrong term anyway, should have gone with historical sites.

That said, given that I love France and Indochina quite a bit, I think it would have been amazing to be a French researcher of those sites back in the day. I know locals would have probably hated my guts, though.

>>1868506
Wouldn't the commies have done way more damage?

>>1868534
ខ្មែរក្រហម did nothing wrong except side with the China.

>>1868534
>I love France and Indochina
Same. I feel like it's a region lost in time, and ignored by history. I wish I could have learned more about it in school.

>>1863340
Well its is. Enjoy living a stone's throw away from the Valley of Defilement, Pajeet.

>>1868545
>Khmer Rouge did nothing wrong
Are you serious m8. Pol Pot alone is arguably worse than Stalin. Look at your countryside full of landmines.

>>1868516
Well, it would have proven dificult for the French to provide Internet half a decade before it was invented.

>>1868592
>half a decade
Whoops.

That's half a century.

>>1868585
>landmines
>internet
US LANDMINES
US INTERNET
THE FUCKING FRENCH DID NOTHING
NOTHING
សម្លាប់ម្តាយរបស់អ្នក!
ស្លាប់នៅក្នុងរន្ធមួយ!

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>>1868609
>tfw I see a butthurt Cambodian on /his/
What a great day.

>>1868609
Are you saying the landmines are good?

I was making fun of the fact that you were dissing the French about the Internet comment even though the French were long gone by the time someone even imagined the Internet.

>>1868620
NO
THE LANDMINES ARE BAD!
THE US MADE LANDMINES
THE US MADE INTERNET
BUT FRANCE DID NOTINGH

>>1868627
So... The Internet is bad?

Or are you saying that France did neither good nor bad for Cambodia? Or that they failed to protect it? I'm quite lost.

>>1868637
No
the Internet is good
the landmines is bad
US did good
US did bad
but France all did bad
No good came from France
They arebad

>>1868639
France pretty much invented rational values though. That has to count for something.

>>1868659
>rational values
RATIONAL VALUES
MY ANCESTORS WORKED TO DEATH
FOR FRENCH GREED
FOR FRENCH PLANT
FOR FRENCH PIASTRE
FUCK
FRANCE

Barely topical to this banter, is the fact that Democratic Kampuchea (Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge) had a fucking terrifying anthem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vW5HvVaybw

>>1868670
Everything about the Khmer Rouge was fucking terrifying desu.
What does it say about our human condition that those monsters came to power?

>>1868676

Khmer Rouge always reminded me of insane school bullies running a country.

>Soft hands.
>Clearly an intellectual, shoot him.
>Glasses.
>Clearly an intellectual, shoot him.
>Lives in a city.
>Clearly an intellectual, shoot him.
>etc...

>>1868670
>>1868676

There was a great documentary I saw about the Khmer Rouge a few years ago and I haven't been able to find it. It was a Yugoslav film crew invited to the country (Pol Pot volunteered in Yugoslavia for a bit and them being neutral-socialists were the only ones let in). They evidently captured all sorts of crazy shit on camera and were given full access and no censorship because they were trusted. Original voice in Croatian / Serbian with English subtitles.

>>1860414
Colonization was never meant to build stable societys. Every colony that didn't have its natives completely replaced is more or less a failure

>>1868609
Dude, you seem completely retarded when you show off such intensive butthurt for no reason.
Were you that Cambodian shitposter who kept praising Apsara and Khmer girls on /int/?

>>1868684
Let me look for it.
In the meantime...
>>1868680
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUjxn4c9j8Y
For you.

>>1868694
APSARA
KHMER QT
ALL GOOD
ALL GREAT
NOT AКУTCP ЫPШE

>>1868695
Scary as hell

>>1868684
Found it!

Kampučija’ 78

Might as well bump since I'm looking for a good book on French Indochina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qYShc9D9uk

>>1860569
>Kenya looks a lot better than Algieria

Kenya is over 0.1HDI behind Algeria, Tunesia and Morocco. Hell, it's behind Gabon and Congo.

>>1868506
At least after skimming the weaklings, their population has very good eyesight.

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>>1868506
Of course Cambodians have internet.

How would we Southeast Asians know otherwise of the sensual pseudo-adolescent glory of Kayona Kim?

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I HATE THE FRENCH

GIVE BACK RIGHTFUL THAI CLAY

Laos and Cambodia are rightful providences of Thailand.

>>1869016
Laos maybe.
Cambodia, most certainly not.

>>1869167
Khmer identity would be the same as the Manchu identity today if the French didnt reboot it.

Khmer culture was and is still heavily influenced by Ayuttaya culture. Pretty much Thai clay

As for the Viets, they can fuck off back to Southern China region.

>>1868499
du ma may

How come Laos and Cambodia ended up two different countries?

How come the Chinese never got past Vietnam?

>>1870004
Please respond.

>>1870513
Cultural differences, and two different dynasties fighting for control.

>>1860381
>teach natives about how awesome the French Revolution was

>>1870994
>Liberté,égalité,fraternité
Yep, fucking terrible.

>>1871183
>implying that applies to natives

>>1869212
>As for the Viets, they can fuck off back to Southern China region.
They aren't native to Southern China though.

>>1871795
Vietnam is rightful Chinese clay

>>1868668
fuck off faggot, your ancestors worked for their overlords like their own ancestors before them.

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>>1872427
SHUT FUCK UP

Were the Wu chinefied Vietnamese people or were they Chinese from the start?

>>1860522
The Quiet American is a good fiction book of this era

>>1873338
Wu was a barbarian kingdom native to the Lower Yangtze,they have nothing to do with the Vietnamese.

>>1873369
Seconded.

>>1860412
>>1860406

He's right, moron. The reason France didn't totally collapse during the French Revolutionary Wars was because the civil service ran almost everything in the government. It didn't matter which ruler was in power; the bureaucrats were loyal enough to the French nation that they kept doing their jobs throughout.

>>1873369
Thirded

Fourthed

>>1873369
What's it about?

>>1874035
1950s Saigon: an English journalist gets cucked by an idealistic young American

But beyond that, it's a good perspective of life in French Indochina during the 50s and Greene correctly predicts growing American involvement in the area

>>1860381
Communism

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>>1860805
Why are the Algerians so obsessed with the French ?

Are there butthurt genes in the Algerians that are triggered when they're angry ?

>>1874568
Phuong did nothing wrong

>>1874619
The funny thing is they're still using french despite being da evul language.

>>1874931
The book made me nostalgic for an era I didn't experience.

>ywn spend the day lounging around in the Saigon heat
>ywn take your 18 year old Vietnamese mistress out to a fancy French restaurant along with your various European friends
>ywn have the option of banging your mistress silly or have her prepare opium pipes
All while you shit out some pointless drivel to send to your home newspaper so they will keep sending you a stipend
So comfy, I missed out

>>1869016
>Join WWII by attacking France while it was busy with Japan.
>Japs notice this.
>Japan: HEY THAIRAND, WE NOTICE YOU NO PARTICIPATE IN WAR THAT MUCH. CAN WE COME IN AND HERP YOU VERSUS THESE EUROPEANS?
>Thailand: Oh, no its ok.
>Japan: I INSIST
>Thailand: OH GOD NO JAPAN. NOOOO

>>1869016
Thailand pls

We spared them from your degeneracy and lady boys

>>1875039
Cambodia is actually the unspoken sex-tourism destination. Worse since Child fucking is rife there compared to Thailand or thailand's second, the Philippines.

>>1874619
>>1874931
The funny thing is that they're triggered by the girl's mini shorts.

Silly things like that makes it very hard to take Muslims seriously.

>>1875044

Well, at least we tried

>>1874976
Why did I hear Thailand as Ghost from True capitalist radio?

>>1860381
Where did ever go right?

>>1860414
>tfw no eternal Franco meme

>>1875039
Most of us thais dont even know our country has is known for sex tourism. its just that we know all the white people like to come to have sex with prositutes

its really a different perspective

Imagine if every year chinese men went to Las Vegas to have sex with white women. Then they go back to China and say "Americans are all prostitutes" America is a degenerate sex hub

you know what im sayin?

>>1876991
All European powers were shit colonialists, and colonies only turned out for the better when they didn't center around resource extraction.

The eternal Anglo gets the hate for forever meddling with European and later world politics, disregarding long term results for short term gains. You can directly see English and American hands in the destabilization of the Middle East, Latin America and South Asia. The French, like the Spanish, were more straightforward: they conquered and went away with the gold and resources until they were finally repelled, they didn't keep meddling for decades in order to secure tangentially related goals (like oil or mineral price manipulation).