Did the Catholic Church bring the reformation onto itself? I

Yes. Catholics even sacked rome and held the Pope hostage.

>>1855249
And was major funders of both Ottomans as well as Protestants.

>>1853910
>Did the Catholic Church bring the reformation onto itself?
No, the holy roman emperor did. Luther would have ended just like any other heretic had he not had the support (out of conveniency) of the german princes.

>>1855325
How convenient that that it was just that Emperor's authority the greedy Pope had been spending the last few centuries weakening.

>>1853910
They were bleeding Germony dry with absurd demands for tons of gold in exchange for indulgences.

Sound familiar?

>>1855249
>The greedy pope even attacked another nation and then had to pay the consequences of it
ftfy

>>1855336
Ah, but the german princes were actually reacting to the emperor gaining power. The church wasn't actually acting against the interests of the princes, they just wanted to undermine the legitimacy of the emperor, which came from the church.

>>1855357
An authority the popes had been damaging quite well themselves by claiming authority over Italy and excommunicating several emperors out of mere lust for secular power.

>>1855361
So you see, it's not so much the church that allowed for protestantism, but the emperor by defying the will of the pope and of his princely subjects.

>>1855367
Or maybe it's the pope's fault for trying to use his religious authority for his own personal search for glory, power and treasure rather than be the humble vicar of Christ?

>>1855393
Nah, when you do that the secular authorities just make you and your religion their bitches. Just look at the churches of england, sweden, etc. Or even the orthodox patriarchs.
A cent5ralized and temporally powerful church is the best choice anon.

>>1855406
Why would any religion for which it's necessary for the religious head to go against his own teachings be taken seriously outside of cultural and larping reasons though?

>>1855420
But the whole reason religions in general get taken seriously is culture and larping. What's the point of going beyond that, especially when it's inconvenient or downright damaging?

>>1855434
You could possibly go pick some religioun that don't except you to slavishly get buttfucked by your religious head like with the Poles?

>>1855441
>slavishly get buttfucked by your religious head
Leave it to proddies to wildly overestimate the actual authority of the pope.

>>1855493
I got Historical examples though.
When the knights loyal to the pope would conquer Polish lands and then raid them for a few centauries, the Pope not doing anything about it till the Poles had defeated the Knigths themselves.

When the Poles were marching onto Muscowy and had the chance to destroy or seriously weaken their enemy the Russians but the Russian tsar sent a letter to the pope he promised to convert to Catholicism, the Pope causing the Poles to draw back and jsut take some land.

When Poland got gut into pieces by it's neighbors and the Pope barely would give them any support, even against the nations
that weren't Catholics.
Rather sure the pope would also bitch and moan about their religious pluralism which didn't do much to strengthen the unity of the Polish state.

>>1855505
Poles slavishly following the pope's indications doesn't mean much, since they did it completely out of their own volition and not due to being forced by religious rules. It's not like proddies are any different, you have plenty of ministers lording it over their flock like they're Jesus himself, and I'm not hearing of any proddie church clamoring about christians getting persecuted nowadays either.

>>1855536
It does mean much for this as changing a religioun would have meant they didn't have to religiously following this guy. And Protestantism would have meant they had their own Religious head that would be excepted to have the best of the Poles in mind.
I suppose you are a Catholic yourself as now you are attacking Protestantism?

>I'm not hearing of any proddie church clamoring about christians getting persecuted nowadays either
That's probably because you aren't listening.

>>1855557
>It does mean much for this as changing a religioun would have meant they didn't have to religiously following this guy.
They already didn't HAVE to. They just CHOSE to. Will you get this into your head? The pope's authority is nowhere near what you proddies want others to believe it is.
>And Protestantism would have meant they had their own Religious head that would be excepted to have the best of the Poles in mind.
Top kek, three words: "church", "of", "sweden".
>I suppose you are a Catholic yourself as now you are attacking Protestantism?
I'm a godless heathen actually, but protestantism always made much less sense than catholicism to me. I might be biased by the art tho, I'd much rather follow a religion with gorgeous temples.

>>1855505

Thats how we know that you dont know about history or religion.

>>1855571
>They already didn't HAVE to. They just CHOSE to. Will you get this into your head? The pope's authority is nowhere near what you proddies want others to believe it is.
Do you think I am some Jack Chick reader? I am not painting the Catholic Church as some all powerful being or whatever, where do you even get that from? I am saying it was stupid by the Poles to remain loyal to the Pope and they should have converted, for their own well being.

>Top kek, three words: "church", "of", "sweden".
So the church of Sweden proves that Proddies don't talk out against persecution?
Hell, even the Swedish Church is trying to do something to help persecuted Christians elsewhere even if in a retarded fashion.
>I'm a godless heathen actually, but protestantism always made much less sense than catholicism to me. I might be biased by the art tho, I'd much rather follow a religion with gorgeous temples.
Allright, I get it, your'e a pagan tier larper.

>>1855583
Care to point out my errors friendo?

>>1855594

Lel no!
It would be a waste to everyone.

>>1855591
>where do you even get that from
Your posts.

>So the church of Sweden proves that Proddies don't talk out against persecution?
It proves that being proddies is not enough to guarantee your church will defend your interests.

>Allright, I get it, your'e a pagan tier larper.
Anon there are 5bln people on this planet who weren't born christian.

>>1855591
Pre-reformation Popes were very powerful, one of the emperors Henrich the second I think got excommunicated and had to humble himself to get re-instated, the pope could also order crusades which were invasions of other countries.

>>1855609
That's Henry the FOURTH, anon.
Also he wasn't excommunicated by the pope, he was excommunicated by a synod of german bishops on behalf of the german princes.
He begged the pope to overrule them, and the pope did in exchange for terms, which Henry broke as soon as the excommunication was lifted anyway.

>>1855607
>Your posts.
I said the Catholic Church was a wrench that was hungry for power and that it was enough to weaken the authority of the Emperors.
I also said that people would do stupid shit because they thought they had some religious reason to be loyal to him. Not that he had some great power he could use to force whatever nation he wished to stay in the flock with, though that wouldn't really be to far from the truth considering the Hussite wars.

>It proves that being proddies is not enough to guarantee your church will defend your interests.
Because the Swedish state has no interest in using the Church for that? Could be different if Christianity was Sweden's state religion and the state actively strives to use it for the interests of Sweden or if People was more religious in general so the Church followed the will of the people rather than some over represented minorities..

>Anon there are 5bln people on this planet who weren't born christian.
And a classical Larper is someone who supports something because it looks cool like pretty Churches. I admit that was wrong to say though.

>>1855583
>>1855597
>I'm a retard please rape my face.

okay

>>1855637

Well, now that you have realized how retarded you are you can proceed!

>>1855623
>I also said that people would do stupid shit because they thought they had some religious reason to be loyal to him.
How is that any different from the relatioship between proddie ministers and their flocks? It's a really silly criticism to level, you can't take authority away from organized religion, else it isn't organized.

>Because the Swedish state has no interest in using the Church for that?
Are you implying protestant churches are only useful if they're state backed? And I'm the one "supporting" catholicism here? Wow.
Besides you could use your own post to answer your criticism of the catholic church in relation to the poles. That's what I was actually talking about, your use of two different standards in judging catholics and proddies.

>And a classical Larper is someone who supports something because it looks cool like pretty Churches.
I don't "support" catholicism, I'm just disagreeing with your posts.

>>1855648
>How is that any different from the relatioship between proddie ministers and their flocks? It's a really silly criticism to level, you can't take authority away from organized religion, else it isn't organized.
Again, I am not criticizing that really, just that the Poles shouldn't have stayed loyal to some dude with his power base far, far away from Italy and instead had some guy that lives in Poland and who reigned by the Polish Monarch.

>Are you implying protestant churches are only useful if they're state backed? And I'm the one "supporting" catholicism here? Wow.
>Besides you could use your own post to answer your criticism of the catholic church in relation to the poles. That's what I was actually talking about, your use of two different standards in judging catholics and proddies.¨
Where did I really defend Protestantism apart from that Church of Sweden thing?
When I said they should have Switched religion I meant anyone, whenever it be Orthodox paganism or even Islam for all I care. As long as they would have had a Church or Religious head caring more about Poland than his mini Kingdom down in Italy.

I don't "support" catholicism, I'm just disagreeing with your posts.
Sure thing then.

>>1855676
>I'm not criticizing the pope
>I'm not defending protestantism
Welp, thread over then.

>>1855648
And states do tend to have some close cooperation with Churches they support, yes. Otherwise they may drift away from its interests if they get independent. If the people is active with the Church it will allign much more with their desires though, at least if the Church got any bottom up way of organizing things.

>>1855685
>>1855676
I haven't participated at all in this thread, but I saw 'criticizing the pope'

are we making fun of the muslim foot licker?

>>1855685
1, I am mostly criticizing that anyone not directly gaining from it should follow him and trying to knock down any religious claims he got to power.
2, While not defending Protestantism specifically I am trying to defend alternatives to the Roman Catholic Church. You were the one to bring Protestantism into this.

>>1853910

No,God struck it down so that the light of the gospel could be released from its darkness, and people might be saved.

>>1855725
>You were the one to bring Protestantism into this.
>thread about the protestant reformation

>>1855739
Actually, this thread is more about generally hating on the Catholic Church.

>>1853910
Yep. Luther touched off a ton of shit because he saw Church violating a bunch of Biblical precepts, the then-current round of indulgences being the most egregious. And the fact that he noted proximity to Rome seemed to correlate with worsening debauchery among monks and shit. He still wanted to reconcile with/reform the Church but the leadership would have none of it. They did clean house, eventually, but too little too late.