How does /his/ feel about nationalism?

>>1852776
Incompatible with globalism.

>>1852776
The solution to the world in the days of today.

>>1852776
I feel it's fine on the surface, but it's something that can get really out of hand and lead to unnecessary wars and suffering. Like if a Frenchmen loves France or a German loves Germany, there is nothing wrong with it. In terms that it's their country and they can take pride in making it a great place for themselves and their children.

The cure for globalism and multiculturalism.

>>1852801
>and their children.
Their children as in ethnic frogs or anybody born in France?

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>>1852801
> German loves Germany

>>1852776
Nationalism is what western civilization needs right about now

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The left surely loved nationalism when it was used against traditional monarchies ruled by aristocratic, clergy and military castes. Now that we have a push for a globalist world order ruled by bureaucrats and progressive intellectuals, nationalism is not useful anymore, so they deny its validity and legitimacy.

A great solution to modern globalism

there's nothing wrong with loving your country

as with everything else, fanaticism is a problem

>>1852776
pleb tier

Globalism is the real redpill but it needs to be guided by a shared ideology.

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>>1852776
Let me make a wild guess here.
Right-wing affiliated people will say its "good".
Left-wing affiliated people will say its "bad".
Really makes you think huh...

Having "pride" in imaginary boundaries and a rectangular piece of cotton that has been dyed pretty colors is retarded.

>inb4 Nepal

>>1852776
Moderately dank meme in the 19th century, but normies ruined it.

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>>1852888
Pretty much this

>>1852850
Probably because they are different people living centuries apart

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>>1852902
It wasn't retarded when it was useful to the left.

Pic related. When Lajos Kossuth rose against the Austrian monarchy in the name of Hungarian nationalism, he was a progressive revolutionary, but when Viktor Orban rises against the European Union in the name of Hungarian nationalism, he is a reactionary.

Hypocrites, all of you.

>>1852917
It's actually the same people: intellectuals, artists, and other members of the "creative class".

>>1852776
Knowing about history makes you nationalist

>>1852924
What did he mean by this?

>>1852918
>implying left and right are anything more than arbitrary meme labels in the first place

>>1852902
that would be an argument against civic nationalism. But pride in your people is the natural default and is healthy for society, your people are an extension of your family.

>>1852918
Lefties BTFO

>>1852776
Ethnic nationalism is bad, but civil nationalism is good.

>>1852820
I'd say for anyone who put their identity as a Frenchman before anything else. So for ethnic frogs and non-ethnic frogs. Immigration isn't nesseccarily a terrible thing when done in moderation and when the immigrants assimilate. The problem you see in Europe today is that the immigrants put things like their religion and many other thing before their new homeland.

>>1852911
Not communism though if that's what you're thinking

>>1852953
Civic nationalism makes no sense because the people are not united by a common culture or race. Just a state with no legitimate reason to exist like the EU or USA.

>>1852888
If it takes a shared ideology it will never happen. The world will never be composed of one ideology that is all encompassing and makes logical sense.

Thus Globalisms end goal is but a pipe dream.

>>1852953
t. based civic nationalist Douglas Carswell

>>1852918
>Lajos Kossuth
"Despite appealing exclusively to Hungarian nobility in his speeches, Kossuth played an important part in the shaping of the law of minority rights in 1849. It was the first law which recognized minority rights in Europe.[23] It gave minorities the freedom to use their mothertongue at local administration, at tribunals, in schools, in community life and even within the national guard of non-Magyar councils.[24] However he did not support any kind of regional administration within Hungary based on the nationality principle. Kossuth accepted some national demands of the Romanians and the Croats, but he showed no understanding for the requests of the Slovaks.[25] He even rejected the notion of a Slovak nation in the Kingdom of Hungary,[26][27][28] despite his uncle György Kossuth supported the Slovak national movement."

Yes, clearly they are exactly the same person in their regards to issues that left-leaning people care about as Lajos Kossuth. Its almost like left-leaning people will praise left-leaning nationalists who accord with ideals they like, while they'll denigrate right-winging people who's ideas they dislike.

>>1852924
The people from the 1800s are not the same as the people from today, even if they came from the same "class". The people then are dead, and not the same as today. They faced different challenges, had a different intellectual climate, different priorities, different realities. Why is it not surprising that they thus had different opinions on issues? Besides, I'm sure you can find plenty of 19th century leftists who were anti-nationalists, and modern leftists who are nationalists.
What you're saying is exactly what the communists would say. They believed that if people came from a certain class then that automatically meant that they would fall into different views, that it wouldn't matter what their personal actions were if they were a landlord or capitalist.
Maybe you're a bit leftist yourself.

>>1852961
The problem with this "identity" talk is that it's essentially a matter of where do you draw the line. No european nations had to access their "identity" before immigration, and redefining the "identity" to basically being anyone who "feels X" is so fluid and superfluous and arbitrary as to be practically useless. This is even applicable to America to a lesser extent. Only people with a ancestral link are ever really going to care. The Jews never assimilated and they were in Europe for 2000 years.

>is that the immigrants put things like their religion and many other thing before their new homeland.
The problem isn't really religion. In fact, it's my personal experience that muslim youth are much worse in Europe then in the Middle East. The problem is the failure of multiculturalism (and by that I mean multiple ethnicities living in the same society as much as I mean cultures) generally.

>>1852918
>>1852924
Wow, they must pretty old to have lived at the same time as both Kossuth and Orban

>>1852890
I'm left wing and I like it.

>>1852953
Being proud that you just happened to be born into X (white) cultural group is literal retard tier.

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

>>1853056
You can be proud you're part of something. And it so happens said mutually acknowledged membership is sometimes gained through birth.

>>1853056
Viciousness is the virtue of winners

>>1853074
>implying people who post on a Rangoon Radio-play relay tower belong to any "mutually acknowledged" group

>>1853076
Edgy af.

>>1853008
>get massive wave of immigrants

>they don't assimilate

>host country goes full pants on head retarded for the new immigrants

Idk about the Jew shit Cletus

There is literally nothing wrong with homogenous nation-states for specific peoples and cultures.

Europe has experienced its longest period of peace in recorded history just as this became the norm. The previous era, the era of multicultural empires, of multiethnic polities, was an absolute disaster for mankind.

>>1853008
Look, Nasser didn't had to examine Egyptian identity before expelling Greeks, Italians and other Europeans from his country. He just did it, and everyone was fine with it. The FNL in Algeria had an even worse situation, how did you define who was a Pied-Noir, a Harki and a "real" Algerian, but they did it just fine in the end, it wasn't hard.

If Arabs can use nationalism to expel foreigners from their cities, why can't Europeans do the same?

>>1853129
>If Arabs can use nationalism to expel foreigners from their cities, why can't Europeans do the same?
That would be racist.

>>1853129
b-but muh "if you can't define something 100% accurately with no gray areas then it doesn't exist"

>>1852781
Globalism is incompatible with Natural Selection, and Nature in general.

>>1852776
Nothing but rebranded tribalism. It has its benefits but ultimately its toxic.

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Stupid tribalistic nonsense. Humans should have put their primitive tribalism behind them as come together as one.

Pride is a sin.

>>1853129
Ingrained racism. We forgive him because he was a stupid egyptian who didn't know any better.

>>1853056
It is silly for one to be proud of simply being born a certain way, they did nothing so it's pointless to be proud about that. Like one's race. But a nation is something that an individual can contribute to and help to construct. It is perfectly justifiable for a Brit to take pride in Britain because he contributes in making Britain a better place as a whole. Even if he isn't a momumental historic figure he still contributes to the idea of Britain and the overall wellness of the nation.

>>1853076
Then ISIS is winning?

Nation states should be maintained. Why you would want the destruction of these cultures and identities is impossible for me to understand.

>>1853533

culture =/= nation state

>>1853540
Yes our European cultures and identities will surely last long in these multicultural, multiethnic society how could I forget.

>>1853547

yes because a nation state surely encompasses and maintains all cultures of its original constituents unaltered

>>1852982
>>1852888

Not really about a single shared ideology but more about acceptance of multiculturalism. The hangup is that we cannot rationally accept every ideology but getting people to agree on what needs to be abandoned is, in the present, impossibe.

>>1853129
>X does something wrong
>That makes it right for Y to do something wrong

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>>1852902

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>>1852996

Nationalism is cancer that destroys the powerful states because of empty rhetorics of separatists.

>>1853007
Because unlike the other parties, Slovaks have the most claim to large portions of Hungary, due to their cultural connection to Great Moravia, the chronological predecessor of all Hungarian states.

>>1854401
>caring about your country is cancer

>Lord 1: Bad news, Lord 2, the middle class have risen up, own their own land and refuse to fight for us to protect our capital when we tell them to
>Lord 2: How about we make up some overly emotional ideology about some vague and abstract concept about some "common bond" people of a certain geographic location have, even though no one cared until recently, and the best part is they'll willingly sign up in droves to fight for our "nation!"
>Lord 1: Genius! What shall we call it?
>Lord 2: Nationalism, of course!

>>1852924

>left was always an ideology for the elite
>history board

>>1852926
Opposite, learning history made me realise that nationalism is arbitrary.

>>1853230
Yes, but the integration/blandering up has to be done in a respectful manner that doesn't involve attacking things like truth, beauty and justice, and we have to accept that it could take a long while.
People, as far as I can see, are not generally annoyed at the concept of integration per se, but rather having it rammed into them by financial and ethnic interests.
(The above is repeating Louis Farrakhan's current position.)

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Depends on flavour of Nationalism you mean, OP.

>I love my country and am proud within my right of it's history/take an active interest in the history of my country. I believe our country has proven itself to be capable, and the people of our country should rightfully seek to see it prosper. The idea of people from other countries coming here does not annoy me, provided they are happy to properly integrate with our country and contribute to it.

Okay.

>Our country is the best country, because of what we did during this one good period of history. We deserve lots more but other shit countries fucked us over. Other countries are shit, and so are people from other countries.

Borderline retarded.

>REEEEEEE CLOSE THE BORDERS BLACKS OUT COUNTRY X STRONK REEEEEEEE

Neck yourself.


I live in Northern Ireland, where a majority of the population are happy to give in to revisionism put out by the British-favouring parties and be a tumor on the UK rather than embrace any of the Irish culture in this country.

They want Irish people to "just move down south" and many of them unironically believe that a British Protestant State in Ulster precedes any Catholic Irish/Gaelic presence.

To be at all nationalist, you have to not only know the history of your own country but be able to both take pride in it and admit mistakes in it.

Most of the time though, Nationalism at any level attracts stormweenies.

>>1854525
It got the job done. Beats being slaves to invaders because you didn't bother protecting the borders from the Mongols. It also unified peoples to a single banner, a single flag. Humanity thrives on unity.

>>1854547
>humanity thrives on unity
>let's draw these arbitrary borders so we can protect interests of our plutocratic masters and be happy doing so

How happy aristocrats of old would be to hear that their fiefs would not only fight and die for them for free but be happy while doing so, all those money spent on mercenaries for nothing.

>>1854564
>Nation-states
>Arbitrary

>>1854571
Nation-states are literally retroactively invented. Why is France a nation-state but Spain and Portugal are separate states? Is it because there was inherently French about people who now live in France? No, Bretons, Normans and Occitans used to be comparatively more different than Portuguese, Castilians and Aragonese but politics oversaw that French managed to hold its land and an identity was invented to centralise the state.

>>1854571

Italy is an example of a country which only recently became a properly unified nation in 1946

Nationalism is the solution to reconcile a people and make it evolve. I, for example, am French and I really feel French, France is like a clan, a tribe for me. Globalization is a plot to destruct this feeling of tribe, and just make the jew freemasons mmore powerful, these guys want to dominate the world. I mean, the UN is useless, I want my country to get out of this fucking organisation wich is now trying to rule the world.
Your country is your family, remember that.

>>1853216
Human society is fairly incompatible with natural selection. The best don't always get to pass their genes and the worst don't always die.

>>1853230
Ridiculous, we are pack animals, we naturally form groups, it's in our nature

>>1852776
Superior to neoliberal globalization, probably. Probably not the worst way for the rabble to think. Men of any depth likely avoid it or at least hold it at arms length.

>>1854628

>muh human nature fallacy

>>1852776
One of the worst things humanity has ever created

>>1852888
While nationalism is certainly for the plebs, globalism is an ignominy, most especially a globalism which comes packaged with universalist proscriptions. I can think of nothing more crude or vile than that all men ought to live and be the same.

>>1854640

I'm sure regionalists thought the exact same when nationalists came knockin' on their doors.

>>1854640
You are thinking of fascism.

Globalism is basically about blurring the lines between states and letting individuals be individuals instead of collectives, because that's better for business.

>>1853056
This is the levelling slave spirit. I am very proud of the family I was born in to and it spurns me to do well for myself. That you find this reprehensible betrays you as some one who has no experience of honor.

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>nationalism is only centered around language and ethnicity.

>>1854666
It's not, and that's part of the problem. It's arbitrary bullshit.

Nice satanic trips tho

>>1854651
I was responding to some one who advocated a globalism guided by a 'shared ideology'. And yes I am aware of globalism as equivalent to the deepening of our atomization and of market logic penetrating ever deeper into our lives and how they are organized.

All this is revolting to me.

>>1852781

And therefore it is good. Fuck Globalism. People on this board should hate it. It destroys history.

It takes sensible pride and love of ones country to a destructive fanatical level.

Nationalism will always lead to war and subjugation. When your ideology is centered around the superiority and uniqueness of your culture it will always lead to conflict and cut throat competition to everyone not part of your tribe.

Some may argue this is the natural course for humanity and it certainly is. But the most deestructive wars in human history have been because of nationalism.

I dont know what a happy medium between nationalism and globalism is however.

>>1854687
This asshole gets it

>>1854581
>history is not a unidirectional predetermined progression
who would have thought

>>1854675
Dude, almost all the posters here care more about Human as a race and building an Earth Empire than ur shitty XIX ideologies.
We must subjugate xenos as Alexander or Caesar did with barbarians, thats our endgame.

As usual total fucking stupidity is the problem.

>Nationalism means you hate everyone else

No you fucking moron. It's possible to have pride in yourself without having hate for others.

Actually, having self-respect and pride for yourself allows you to respect other people.

This is how most decent humans operate. It's a shades of grey world, not black and white.

>you either are nationalistic and hate everyone else or you are a globalist

Fucking morons.

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>>1854776
This guy gets it. Have a (you)

>>1854687
>ideology is centered around the superiority and uniqueness of your culture
>all nationalism is exceptionalism

>>1852890
Umm, what the hell? are you stupid or something?

>>1854818
Majority of it is.
Either that or a desperate attempt for a nation to reinvent itself. Usually based on some meme or "its all what we can do".

>>1852781
i wouldn't mind globalism if it was corrected with a darwinistic view, otherwise it's just globalism: the welfare episode

>>1854776
/thread

>>1852776
It's okay

>>1852902
>Having "pride" in imaginary boundaries and a rectangular piece of cotton that has been dyed pretty colors is retarded.

Is what really what people are nationalistic about though?

In my opinion, it seems to me that people identify and have emotional ties to their ethnicity and cultural mores, more than being in love with a flag or imaginary geographical boundaries.

>>1852902
Borders and flags no more make a nation than four walls and a roof make a home. What matters is the people living inside.

Peoples like the Irish, Finns and Poles lived for centuries without boundaries or flags. But as nations their people endured. Tibet is part of China, but the people endure.

>>1852822
I always wondered why spain gets a free pass on nationalism...so does italy.

>>1855894
It's an imagined community, regardless. Someone in Connecticut could live their whole life without meeting someone from California, and indeed not knowing the vast majority of the American population, and yet they would consider themselves affiliated with those people because they are part of an American community. It's a very artificial perception.

>>1855901

Oh, yeah, you are right.
All those Italio-Spanish nationalists spamming all days, all the day...
Wait a minute!

>>1855915
Of course it's hard for an American to understand this concept at all, because the only tribalism that you have had is racism.

>>1855915
>equating civic nationalism with ethno-nationalism

>>1855929
Thanks for the shitpost, friend.
>>1855930
How is ethno-nationalism any different, given the example? An Irishmen could live without ever once participating in cultural rituals, or having the same insular affects that denote a community, and still be considered an Irishmen because of his "blood"? It's just as artificial.

>>1855936
>Thanks for the shitpost, friend.

How is that a shitpost?

I'm just telling you how nationalism is viewed differently between Americans and Europeans.

>>1855936
>An Irishmen could live without ever once participating in cultural rituals

Then he wouldn't neither culturally or nationally be an irishman, he might be a citizen, but thats it

>>1852776
>belgium
>a nation

>>1854501
That… has no connection to my argument? He was still a liberal nationalist with minority rights, even if not as liberal as some today might have liked. If somebody emerged in an authoritarian state today and hailed that they would emancipate [oppressed minority here], but wouldn't give regional federations, they'd still be complimented for the change compared to the previous system. Compare this to Viktor Orban, who rightly or wrongly is renowned for xenophobia and discriminatory policies.

>>1852776
Next logical step up from tribalism.

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>>1855936
>It's just as artificial.
Is it?

In Ireland we're talking about a people that are mainly descended from a specific group of bronze age peoples that have lived on that island for the past four or five millennia. There over a very long period of time they developed a language, culture and way of life particular to their region. Even without participating in any of the modern rituals or culture, that Irishman has a shared history and lineage with every other Irishman, whether they know it or not.

By contrast, the United States of America is an assemblage of other peoples grafted onto a colonial branch of the British people roughly one or two centuries ago. There is no common genetic lineage, nor is there a common lived history binding the US together. Fully one sixth of the US population came into the country after WWII. Their ancestors never worked in the US factories or saved for victory. Their conception of this country as a "nation" is based solely on what they learn in school. Their concept of assimilation is based entirely off of what they learn from the world around them.

>>1854525
The feudal lords and kings of medieval times would be jelly af if they saw what nationalism accomplished

>>1852776
>>1852801
Like this guy says, moderation, as with most other things too, is key. Separate states who share basic values like free speech, equality and freedom of religion and a separation of church and state but who may still talk different langauges, have different cultural quirks and so on. Then it's workable. The end goal is still some sort of global cooperation though. This tribalism is pretty cancerous, we need to get to a point where we all converge on some common ideas and then go from there.

>>1856023
>In Ireland we're talking about a people that are mainly descended from a specific group of bronze age peoples that have lived on that island for the past four or five millennia. There over a very long period of time they developed a language, culture and way of life particular to their region. Even without participating in any of the modern rituals or culture, that Irishman has a shared history and lineage with every other Irishman, whether they know it or not.
He doesn't. He never lived within the community. It's superficial where his grandfather came from, or if is father participated in the community. He only thinks himself to share a "history"because he remembers unifying moments and forgets othering moment, and even that is a product of a particular view of time as empty, homogeneous and linear that is fairly modern and intrinsically tied to print capitalism. The "shared history" is a myth that places the nation as the subject of history, the destiny as it would be, and poses the State as a curator of tradition.
And still yet, that Irishmen will never know all the Irishmen out there, yet feels an affiliation with these people he will never known and might vehemently disagree with on all levels. It's an invented community.

Your statement on America is flawed, because you suppose that civic and ethnic nationalisms cannot exist in the same sphere. Within the United States there are several communities that frame their identities around certain ethnic similarities. There's a Black community, so to speak, and an Irish community, and a polish community, in the United States, that all can potentially contribute to bottom up nationalist projects. It's still an imagined community.

>>1852776
nation states were the worst idea ever

>>1855901
because they didn't genocide people on an industrial scale

>>1856257
but what about the spanish empire and the rape of the new world and what not

>>1856240
>And still yet, that Irishmen will never know all the Irishmen out there, yet feels an affiliation with these people he will never known and might vehemently disagree with on all levels. It's an invented community.

It's like you don't even understand what an extended family is.

>>1853780
If X is allowed to "something wrong" without consequence is it actually wrong in the first place? If it is in fact wrong why are steps not being taken to correct that wrong?

>>1856271
Are you saying all Irishmen ever is just this guy's extended family? That's bullshit and you know it. If you're the anon who equated ethnic nationalism with tribalism you're dead wrong, because within tribes there's a higher probability that any member would actually know all of the members and elites, especially on smaller scales. There is a direct relationship between individuals. Same with your extended family; you might not interact with them often, but you know these people and probably live within close proximity.
There is nothing concrete that bonds people within a nation. It is ill defined and only made possible through the advent of widespread printing in vernacular which managed to create an idea of affiliation between distant space.
In an age of nation-states, nationality feels almost natural, but it's made up. If I was born in Britain, I would be a Brit all my life, regardless if I then lived in China and hated all things British.

>>1852776
Meme.

>>1856372
Kind of is innit

>>1856269
that wasn't made on the basis of racial superiority, also
>believing the anglo lies

Nationalism has led to some awful things but just because it's bad doesn't mean it's a fraction of the evil Globalism represents.

Well intentioned idiots have done terrible irreversible things to fight Nationalism.

I'm a Nationalist accordingly.

>>1856329
>Are you saying all Irishmen ever is just this guy's extended family? That's bullshit and you know it.

When one considers that recent one genetic study that showed most Frenchmen are probably related to Charlemagne, it stands to reason that on an island with a far smaller population a similar study would yield similar results.

For most of the history of Ireland we're talking about a population physically bounded on all sides by water with relatively limited inflows and outflows. I don't know the specifics, but to guess I would say that their population was under 1 million before the arrival of the potato. Afterwards the population grew. If they were already genetically related before the population grew, then they must be genetically related still.

>There is nothing concrete that bonds people within a nation. It is ill defined and only made possible through the advent of widespread printing in vernacular which managed to create an idea of affiliation between distant space.
If this were true, then Tibet should be an impossibility. But it is not. The nation exists as a result of the geographical reality that is the Tibetan Plateau. In a similar vein Ireland exists because of the reality that it is an island. But not just that, it's a land were a specific group of people have lived a certain way, farming and eating certain foods, regardless of what they were thinking.

>>1856656
>If they were already genetically related before the population grew, then they must be genetically related still.
I still fail to see how this legitimates the Irish cultural community.
>The nation exists as a result of the geographical reality that is the Tibetan Plateau.
The nation is an imagined political community though. I don't think you understand my argument, which is that of Benedict Anderson.
>[the national community] is imagined because the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them, or even hear of them, yet in the minds of each lives the image of their communion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_community
Ethnic communities function on the same principle, only now with a ill-defined sense of blood kinship, and the delusional conception of purity and invented authenticity that goes along with it.

>>1852776
>How does /his/ feel about nationalism?
this board exists because of it

>>1852776
Patriotism is good but WWII era German and Japanese expansionism is bad. Loving your nation doesn't imply disdain for others.

>>1854666
If it were then America, Canada, UK and South Africa would all be one nation. A lot of things go into what a nation is.

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>>1852776
Feels good man :3

>>1854381
Except a country is absolutely nothing like a house..
>inb4 the basic idea is applicable
We're all surely capable of more intelligent thinking than analogies involving houses.

>>1852918
>Viktor Orban rises against the European Union in the name of Hungarian nationalism, he is a reactionary.

Not a reactionary, just a bit of a mong. The Hungarian economy is stagnant and its infrastructure and he's offered no serious solutions. The only reason /pol/ adores him are his meme-tier views on immigration and the fact that they don't have to live there.

>>1859467
would rather live there than in the rape capital of the world