/christianity/

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>Otherwise, Christianity General Thread. Open discussion from all believers and non-believers welcome, but let's be civil.

I'm in the same situation as OP. I would have converted to Catholicism a long time ago if not for Pope Francis. Convince me Orthodoxy is the true faith.

I don't get why people will go "I converted but I don't know what to, convince me of a doctrine to blindly follow".

Not even trying to come off as an edgy atheist I just really don't fucking get it, if you were going to convert wouldn't you have selected the one YOU thought was right?

>>1840360
kek

On a related note, does anyone have the rare pepe of a smug Pope Pepe smiling while Jan Hus is burned at the stake? I believe it also had a little document burning in the fire where it says Hus was guaranteed his safety lmao

>>1840344
What convinced you to convert to christianism?

>>1840367
that requires legitimate research and studying doctrine of TWO groups, rather than just studying one, and letting confirmation bias do the rest of the work

>>1840367
It's not that you want to blindly follow something. It's that often times people don't understand all of the doctrine they're getting into when they join a church. These threads are a way of people discovering more about the church that they're interested in. For some, it will reaffirm them that they made the right choice to begin with. For others, they'll understand that perhaps another church suits them better.

Like in my case, I'm pretty much set on the Orthodox Church, my reservations come from the massive culture shock and the fact that I can see the Catholic point of view on most of their positions. It's just hard for me to reconcile how shitty and cucked the Catholic Church has become since the 1960s

Go ask some actual priests about it

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>>1840371
Where did I say I only studied one group? I, like most new Christians, have looked at a variety of Christian churches. I've just narrowed it down to these two and I'm conflicted on some of the differences between them.

You aren't as enlightened as you think you are.

>>1840370
I can't really point to one thing. As I got older and perhaps just a little more wise, I stopped looking at the world with the euphoric "hurr science is always right it's the only thing that matters." It's not that I don't believe in science now, but I understand that there are things science cannot explain and has no business in, just as there are things that religion can't explain and have no business in.

Plus a lot of studies of philosophy and history helped me along the way. And at the end of the day, religion has given me a purpose I never had before. Since becoming Christian, I've turned my life around, I've become a happier person, I've gotten into great shape, and I spend most of my time reading or doing hobbies or bettering myself in some way rather than shitposting on the internet all day and playing video games.

And at the end of the day, praying and reading Scripture just really makes me happy. I like feeling like I'm a part of something bigger than myself. I don't know why God waited this long to show me his plan for me, but I'm happy He didn't it sooner rather than later.

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>>1840378
I have. Unfortunately, the two priests in question near me (the Catholic priest and the Orthodox priest) are very unsympathetic towards the other viewpoint, to the point that the Catholic priest simply wouldn't listen to me asking any questions about why the Catholic Church believes differently from Orthodoxy. In essence it turned into:
>"Why don't you believe in X like the Orthodox?"
>"Because it is heresy."
>"Why is it heresy?"
>"Because we don't believe in it."

Not very useful desu

Do you really believe or are you one of those "cultural Christians"

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>>1840440
Yes, I really believe.

>>1840344
Hey OP + others can you help me with this issue I had in another thread?

-----------------------
1/2
When one investigates modern religions (As early as the reformation but most apparent in those from the 19th Century onwards) beyond the surface levels they quickly appear to be fabrications or human creations no matter how well meaning the creators intent; seeming very arbitrary and lacking a connection to the divine.

Because of issues like this religions from ancient times seem to be far more pure, consistent and in touch with the divine.
However when I looked into religions like apostolic Christianity and Theravada Buddhism (which I was initially very impressed by ) I was eventually put off by when I became aware of the troubles that face ancient historians.

This is because the seemingly objective purity, consistency and divinity of it was illusory. For the idea that the teachings of groups like the Church Fathers for Christians or the Elders for the Th. Buddhists represent the unchanging consensus of the ideas of their times. However what they do represent is simply the ideas that were able to and most importantly allowed to be preserved.

Very very very little documentation remains from these times even liked and uncontroversial works like the biography of Cicero or the actual works of figures from the Helenistic schools. Christian religion becomes more complicated in that whichever group was politically dominant would literally destroy the works they deemed heretical or false and sometimes this would even go back and forth between groups.

>>1840458
So in the end aside from when we find works that were either hidden away and forgotten or dug out of garbage we are only left with the documents that the politically dominant group decided to and at great expense and effort were able to keep.

The most damming evidence around modern religions tends to be found in third party evidence - particularly regarding their founders and key figures lives and reports from ex members from their hierarchies and these documents simply do not exist in any great number or quality from ancient times. At best you have tiny snippets or a letter that were sourced from a longer document seeking to refute them - hence its kind of like trying to understand a book from the quotes in a polemic essay.

For modern religions there is no great veil of time and likewise writing and record keeping is no longer a cloistered activity which can be dominated to prevent counter narratives - hence why modern religions - seem impure and corrupted by default.
I was curious if anyone else has had thoughts on this issue.

>>1840393
How come Islam and Eastern Religions religions didnt make the cut?

>>1840463
I just didn't feel any attraction to them. Eastern religions in particular had absolutely no attraction for me, and I simply found Islam to be equally as repulsive for different reasons.

I frequently hear this argument from atheists that somehow my faith is unfounded because I haven't personally tried out every single religion on the face of the planet. This claim is preposterous. You go with whichever religion your heart draws you to. I was never raised in a religious household. My family was atheist just like I was, I had no upbringing in Christianity and nobody pushed me towards it. Despite reading some Eastern philosophy and reading about other religions as well (during which time I very briefly looked into paganism and Shintoism), none of them clicked with me and I ended up following what I personally felt to be the truth: Christianity. It makes me feel better and resonates with me in a way the others never did.

>>1840472

Well at least you admit your decision is irrational and based mostly on feelings, that's better than most people raised in religious households can say.

Somehow it makes it even more mindboggling that you're willing to accept "that's just how I feel" as a valid outlook on reality but whatever floats your boat.

>>1840393
>just as there are things that religion can't explain and have no business in
So what's with the bible incorrectly trying to explain the origin of the cosmos and life on earth?

>>1840472
Im not the poster in >>1840479. To what extent did you investigate these religions?

> I was never raised in a religious household. My family was atheist just like I was, I had no upbringing in Christianity and nobody pushed me towards it. Despite reading some Eastern philosophy and reading about other religions as well (during which time I very briefly looked into paganism and Shintoism), none of them clicked with me and I ended up following what I personally felt to be the truth: Christianity. It makes me feel better and resonates with me in a way the others never did.

If you live in Europe, the Americas or Oceania you grew up in a society shaped by Christian values and references which explains why it resonates with you more than foreign faiths. Its also why when teenagers mature in Middle Eastern societies they tend to gravitate back towards Islam.

>This claim is preposterous
I guess the concern here is that rather than seeking the truth faith no matter how uncomfortable that might make you, you chose something that would align with your existing values and life - in the sense choosing a religion like a home or a car

I kind of believe that there is God but i just can't feel emotionally connected with Him. I have too much anger and hatred towards myself, i guess that's why i can't feel emotion with someone/something else.

>>1840479
What the hell is your problem? I told you I looked into other religions. None of them felt right with me. Religion is not something where you can qualitatively and empirically compare them. What the fuck did you expect me to do? Make a chart of how many miracles all of the different religions of the world have correctly predicted or some shit and chosen it based off of that? Fuck off.
>>1840488
Origin stories are present in every culture. Nobody, not even the original Christian Church, took those stories to be literal. And in any case, it doesn't change what the purpose of religion is.

>>1840510
>Nobody, not even the original Christian Church
But they did, until very recently actually.

>>1840516
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/creation-and-genesis

>>1840344
Traditional Catholic my friend, if you live in the West.

>>1840567
Why should he be a traditional Catholic over Orthodox which has no modern/traditional divide at all?

>>1840569
Because its the church of the West, the church of our people.

>>1840572
But its not the Church of Christ.

http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x

take a look for the section for Catholics.

>>1840580
That's your opinion

>>1840582
Nah its reflected by the history and tradition of the Church as demonstrated in that link.

>>1840586
Yep anon, that link is definitely going to change the opinion of a complete stranger of whom you have no idea who he is, how much time he's already spent on the subject, or why he feels the way he does.

>>1840590
Its a good starting point, especially for someone whose argument are like that in >>1840572
+its also for the other people reading

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>>1840344
>it is another I wanna be Christian but I don't know which denomination episode
>implying this isn't meant to bait denominations to shitpost and preach to each other
If you are really being sincere, just be a gnostic and end this thread

>>1840597
Not really. He asked our opinion, and I gave him mine.

If he lives in the West, and is Westerner he should convert to traditional Catholicism. He'll feel more at home, and be closer to the tradition of his ancestors.

If he's a Greek, or a Russian, or a Serb ect. he should convert to orthodoxy.

I don't need a "starting point" on the subject.

>>1840606
>If he lives in the West, and is Westerner he should convert to traditional Catholicism. He'll feel more at home, and be closer to the tradition of his ancestors.

And the counter argument to that was that choosing a religion on cultural lines is a poor method and one thats not linked to the truth but to modern subjectivism.

>>1840344
>I was so spooked by memes and pop science that I tripped on LSD once and had an epiphany
>now red pill me on the true religion

These threads should be banned.

>>1840614
Not really.

You can reach God easier by using a method closer to your understanding. Its rather difficult for a Westerner to convert to Buddhism properly, for example, because we aren't enculturated in that world view.

Its not "subjective" to follow the traditional faith of your people for centuries.

My family is Catholic but I'm not very religious. Can't say I'm Atheist either as you never know if a higher power does indeed exist. At the moment I'm at the crossroads where I'll join whichever faith has the most popularity/power in the world. Feels like the Christian faith is slowly becoming weaker and weaker. Not sure if it is due to the current Pope as I don't find him very likeable.

>>1840620
>
You can reach God easier by using a method closer to your understanding. Its rather difficult for a Westerner to convert to Buddhism properly, for example, because we aren't enculturated in that world view.

Yeah its not as easy, however its not impossible nor does it have any bearing on its truthfulness.

>Its not "subjective" to follow the traditional faith of your people for centuries.

It is unless you either believe in some sort of perennial faith or that billions are doomed merely by because they living in the wrong location.

If we held to your view Christianity during Jesus time would have been invalid

>>1840626
Christianity is actually growing in Asia and Africa.

Its shrinking in the Weston world, but still a fairly powerful force in the former communist nations of eastern Europe

I've been listening to lectures about the history of Christianity and the Catholic Church, and it's quite eye opening after living around American Protestants my whole life. Catholics actually have deeply thought out theology crafted by millennia of theologians and philosophers. American Protestants just do whatever feels good and assume God approves. And I may be an atheist, but I sure do love tradition and ritual too.

>>1840640
That is surprising to know. I thought Islam was more popular in such areas.

>>1840639

>doomed merely by because they living in the wrong location

It seems to be the opposite,

I feel his soul would be saved either way, you claim orthodoxy is the one truth he needs to follow.

>If we held to your view Christianity during Jesus time would have been invalid

Not really. Jesus created a new tradition, that caught on later then his earthly ministry and went on to define Europe up to the modern era. Orthodoxy isn't like that, its a old faith that's growing in nations that were historically orthodox.

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Catholic here.

Sometimes you have to suffer for the church. Not just because you will get that contemptus mundi, but also because there are enemies from within (this has always been the case, see: Judas). Vatican II did disorient many things, and the recent cardinal appointments left much to be desired, but no mere man can turn the rock of Peter into sand. We still have awesome figures like Robert Cardinal Sarah doing their thing. Benedict XVI is still kicking too. I think within the next 20-40 years the church will become more conservative because seminarians are rediscovering traditions that were suppressed post Vatican II.

>>1840656
>It seems to be the opposite,
Do you feel the same way regarding Muslims and Hindus?

> Not really. Jesus created a new tradition, that caught on later then his earthly ministry and went on to define Europe up to the modern era. Orthodoxy isn't like that, its a old faith that's growing in nations that were historically orthodox.

And by your reasoning this was a grave error as it would mean discarding the faith of the ancestors.

>>1840652
In Africa its mainly demographic ie more children and longer lives

>>1840458
>>1840460

Bumping for someone to give their view on this issues

>>1840665
I do actually, but still understand organic conversion does occur. I don't know what God has destined for the future. Perhaps the whole world will be orthodox, but I doubt it.

OP gave his reasoning, and as someone whos been there I'd say go for Catholicism. he'll find more of what he's looking for.

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>>1840344
Yeah cus eating a cracker and drinking some grape juice and getting dunked in a tiny pool is what really makes a Christian. Not having a unique personal relationship with the king of kings and knowing that you are saved through him
Whatever church you're going to you need to stop and find one that preaches the word not some idiots opinion on it

>>1840458
Everything is based on old ideas. Nothing exist in a bubble. Nothing was every purely conceived without anything before it, at least not for a long time.

Christianity comes from ancient
Judaism, but a closer inspection of ancient Judaism reveals influences of Zoroastrianism, Babylonian paganism, Egyptian paganism and ancient Canaanite religion. Christianity carries all that with her, as well as Platonism. The church fathers affirmed Christianity with Aristotelianism. Its just something you have to come to terms with.

>>1840687
Nice straw man of Catholicism.

>>1840699
I think you are missing the point here, my posts were about the value and legitimacy we should place on tradition not things being unique or without influence

>>1840717
What modern religion are you referring to? I can only think of Protestantism or its deist offshoots like transcendentalism, or gnostic offshoots like Mormonism ?

I don't think that's really a problem anywhere. All the ancient text exist, not hard to find them. We also have active traditions, including Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Not what they once were, but still on going.

>>1840734
>What modern religion are you referring to?
As I said in my post ones from the 19th Century onwards

>I don't think that's really a problem anywhere. All the ancient text exist, not hard to find them. We also have active traditions, including Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Not what they once were, but still on going.

This is astoundingly incorrect, only about 1-7% of ancient texts survived - bearing in mind that this includes texts that survived by mistake rather than effort.

At best tradition is simply the narrative of the group with most dominance and a narrative which cant be questioned as any evidence contrary to it was destroyed or lost

>>1840748
Who practices religion created from 19th century onwards?

>>1840785
Mormons, Bahai, Scientologists, Fulan Gong, the Unification Church, Numerous Protestant Sects, the Hare Krishnas, neo pagans, Kabbalah, the Self Realisation fellowship, Aum Shinrikyo as well as hordes of minor new age ones

>>1840791
That's a very small minority of people. Plus the Kabbalah is an old form of Jewish esotericism.

>>1840794
We are talking 10s of millions of people, here.

Likewise are you sure you understand the reason why I brought them up in my post? Its about the value of tradition and the issue of the veil of time in assessing religious truth rather than influence

Does the information I present in >>1840748, (particularly about how history presents us with the opposite of what you claim) not raise some serious questions?

>>1840810
Its just not related to the tread, and kind of pointless.

If you want to talk about this start your own thread.

>>1840812
>Its just not related to the tread, and kind of pointless.

Did you even read the OP?

"Otherwise, Christianity General Thread. Open discussion from all believers and non-believers welcome, but let's be civil."

Likewise the question of tradition is literally the most important thing when it comes to assessing Catholicism and Orthodoxy

>>1840821
Did you read the rest of it? or are you just using that last part as an excuse for your thread derailment? Its pretty obviously the OP wanted a discussion about Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Here, let me help you.

>I've recently become a Christian after having been an atheist my entire life. Well, I'm not officially a Christian yet as I have yet to receive Communion or be Baptized. But I have been reading Scripture and preparing myself for it.

But I don't know which church to join. I know that I either want to be a very conservative, traditional Catholic (there's a church that practices the Extraordinary form of the Tridentine Mass near me) or be an Orthodox Christian.

Theologically and spiritually, I feel much closer to the Orthodox Church. I enjoy the mysticism and ancient feel it gives me, and I feel like I am much closer to Christ when I am in an Orthodox Church.

But culturally, I feel much closer to the Catholic Church. I'm much more familiar with their customs, and Orthodox customs seem very strange and foreign to me. Furthermore, I have been learning Latin, and again this just culturally brings me a bit closer to the Catholic Church. But I do not agree with Vatican II and I do not agree with the modernization the Church has gone through in recent years. It feels... cheap, somehow.

>tl;dr
Orthodox or Catholic?

>>1840834
>Did you read the rest of it? or are you just using that last part as an excuse for your thread derailment?

I did, particulary the part where he wrote

"But I do not agree with Vatican II and I do not agree with the modernization the Church has gone through in recent years. It feels... cheap, somehow."

My posts relate to the nature of this modernization and change.


>Its pretty obviously the OP wanted a discussion about Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Except for the part where he literally typed that this was a "Christian General" with "Open Discussion" Why are you so adamant on pretending he didn't type this? You wont even acknowledge it.


>tl;dr
>Orthodox or Catholic?

For someone so concerned with cherrypicking it seems strange to ignore what came after that.

Orthodoxy is the most comfy

>>1840862
>"Otherwise, Christianity General Thread. Open discussion from all believers and non-believers welcome, but let's be civil."

He stated that offhandedly , you must be a sperg who can't discern these types of things.

>>1840871
>He stated that offhandedly , you must be a sperg who can't discern these types of things.

So much for keeping it civil, Ive demonstrated that my content was related to both his issue and the general one. All you did was start changing the subject before resorting to insults me as soon as I questioned you on your claim about

" All the ancient text exist, not hard to find them"

>>1840883
No, I quickly realized you were derailing the thread with a non-related post about "19th century religions" that could easily be its own thread.

Not that you had any clarity in what you were trying to say.

>>1840892
>No, I quickly realized you were derailing the thread with a non-related post about "19th century religions" that could easily be its own thread.

That was literally a question you asked, Indeed I even challenged you on the relevancy of bringing that up and how my post was not concerned with them in >>1840717

>>1840901
You posted an unclear rant about "tradition," bumped it because no one bothered to respond to it, and then sucked me into the moment I took a shot at it.

>>1840904
>then sucked me into the moment I took a shot at it.

Ah so its my fault you chose to derail the thread then. Even after I told you that you had misread it you continued on your tangent.

>>1840912
I didn't realize you'd involve me in an autistic cluster fuck. when I said "all" I wasn't being literal. Something else you missed.

you should have stopped at >>1840734
and got the point. This post wasn't about your "concern" with the lack of tradition in post- 19th century religions. You had to bump your thread because no one wanted to respond to it.

>>1840912
>Hey OP + others can you help me with this issue I had in another thread?

You even admit it was an issue you had in another thread

LDS

>>1840923
>This post wasn't about your "concern" with the lack of tradition in post- 19th century religions.

It was as the amount of ancient texts available was foundation of concerns. Even if we look at your point figurativly or as hyperbole its still incorrect at any angle you look at.

>You had to bump your thread because no one wanted to respond to it.

Well yeah thats how 4chan functions nothing crazy about that, whether its pictures or links theres no issue with bumping a post or a thread once or twice.

>You even admit it was an issue you had in another thread

And where better to post it than a Christian General were the the churches with the best understanding of tradition is being discussed.

>>1840935
Mormons arent Christian, they are the bastard child of Polytheism and Islam

>>1840344
>Orthodox or Catholic?
Neither, become a Christian

>>1840479
You really haven't read Kierkegaard, have you?

>bazillion religions exist
>Just so happens that the religion of his ancestors is totally correct

My nigga good job for keeping your culture

>>1841057
which of the 33 000 denominations?

>>1841096
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdXJzgtiM4E

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If you're wanting to get serious about Christianity, the first mistake you're making is trying to go about it by picking between two dying orders of doctrine.

To start off, read the Bible. Read it for what it is, a love story between a Creator God and literally the most idiotic people group that ever existed, the Israelites.

Read the Old Testament to have the charactor of this creator god revealed via interactions with these idiots over the course of hundreds of years. Read the Psalms to unpack the mind of a warlord King. Read the account of the Maccabean revolt to get context of the climate of Jesus's preaching. Read the gospels in context to understand the simultaneous divinity and humanity of Christ. Read Paul's letters to truly understand the scandal of Grace. Fall in love with the humanity of the characters.

Read some J. I. Packer, some Johnathan Edwards, some N. T. Wright (very important) and some Smith Wigglesworth if you want to get weird.

But also read Kierkegaard. He'll keep you grounded in nihilism.

>>1841263
N. T. Wright is a heretical false teacher

>>1841263
>grounded in nihilism
counter propositional, and this poster >>1841438
is right

>>1840344
Actually according to psychology you are mentally ill if you convert to a faith later in life.

t. man who believes he's the mortal incarnation of Satan.

I'm on vacation dammit.

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>>1840344
>I enjoy the mysticism and ancient feel it gives me, and I feel like I am much closer to Christ when I am in an Orthodox Church.

You are as much a confused larper as a neo-pagan. I doubt that you actually buy into Christianity, perhaps you just like the feel, and the aesthetic, and maybe the ''edgy atheist'' meme has effected you too much.

>>1841515
>hurr let me, a non-believer, tell you why you don't actually believe in God
Fuck off, fedora

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>>1840368
Just the Pope one

>>1841093
Unless OP is Eastern European or Greek, Orthodoxy isn't the religion of his ancestors, retard

>>1841219
>"Guys it's not 33,000! It's just a couple hundred!"
top heretic

>>1841515
>I've recently become a Christian after having been an atheist my entire life

He's always been a christian, he thinks he a clever shill

>>1840344
If you feel such attachment to western custom you should go Lutheran or Anglican. If you insist on going apostolic you should put those apprehensions behind since that's a poor reason to align yourself with a religious institution that you feel is insincere. Greek Orthodox habits and terminology are not that unrelative to Latin practices and even Coptic employs a lot a Greek terminology. I mean in the case of the Orthodox and Catholics they were only in communion with each other for a THOUSAND years which atm is reaching the same amount of time they've been separated.

>>1841523
>hurr let me, a non-believer, tell you why you don't actually believe in God

Well yes, I can make an objective analysis because I'm not delusional.

>>1840393
>It's not that I don't believe in science now, but I understand that there are things science cannot explain and has no business in
Like what?

>>1841585
Female logic.

>>1840344
Lutheran if you can't decide

>>1840344
Oriental Orthodoxy.

>>1840401
>Orthodox
>Heresy
He's not a very good priest. If he would say so about Protestants, then he would be correct, but in no way is Orthodoxy heretical to Catholic.

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Orthodoxy is fine
check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoWtrb8cKEw

Catho is okay despite some heresies.
conservative Luthern is the only viable prot option.

But honestly if you want a path to God Buddhism does it a bit better than Christianity (ironically, since they don't talk about God, but that's actually an advantage), theravada is the best school of buddhism, imo

>>1841723
I wanted to add, conservative lutheran of course.

>>1841536
>Guys i have no argument i've been BTFO!
We know.

>>1841263
>Kierkegaard
>nihilism

Yu wot m8?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13osnYu2uoE

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>>1840344

>I've recently become a Christian after having been an atheist my entire life.

Just admit it, you are bored.

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>>1840393
>I can't really point to one thing. As I got older and perhaps just a little more wise, I stopped looking at the world with the euphoric "hurr science is always right it's the only thing that matters." It's not that I don't believe in science now, but I understand that there are things science cannot explain and has no business in, just as there are things that religion can't explain and have no business in.

>>1840687
Protestant detected.

>>1840344
Go the Orthodox route. If you live in a western country, the cultural element isn't as big as you'd expect, and there are a lot of parishes that aren't really 'ethnic' and there has been an increase in converts over the past few decades.

Catholicism focus more on ritual and participation, whereas Protestantism focus more on faith or belief. The Orthodoxy, too, focuses heavily on ritual with an ancient aesthetic and mysticism to give it spiritual authority. Keep in mind that no religion is "authentic"; all, even the Orthodoxy that sees itself as unchanging, undergo constant alteration and change in response to social climate.
If you're joining because you need a set of practices to form a identity or community, I would advise against it. The "culture" argument people keep reiterating is faulty because "western identity" ultimately is not founded on religious affiliation. It is a pathetic attempt at asserting an ill-defined and ultimately nonexistent authenticity or purity, which is all used to mobilize people through various national projects.

>>1840344
Why did you convert to Christianity when there is so much (imo) that doesn't make sense, or seems to fall under the argument that a lot of Gods seems to act like the people that follow them, or those in power within the religion, at least in the early days of its creation.

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Heil Lucifer, the morning star.

Oh how you tried to help man,

the Arrogant and Prideful Yahweh may call you evil,

but we Gnostics know who you really are.

You reached Gnosis through your knowledge.

Yahweh is not the creator, only a manipulator.

The day will come when we shall join you oh Lucifer.

When we will reunite and become one with the Monad.

>>1842622
>implying faith without works

>>1844042
I never got Luciferism. Who would willingly want to follow the devil? I also don't understand the "God as tyrant" theme that's spun. If God was really pissed that they ate the fruit, he could have just smote Adam and Eve and started over. Or he wouldn't have made the fruit in the first place.

>>1844042
2edgy for me

Heiling lesser entities that would lie, steal and cheat from you. Making you as miserable as they are. Congrats you played yourself.

>>1840344
dont join either.

>>1844933
Why

>>1845040
Read up on other people who joined these groups as adults and 90% of them don't remain in the religion beyond 10 years. Either they leave it, burnt and disillusioned and turn atheist, or just lose steam and stop practicing. It's just not really possible to be religious nowadays. There are too many dangers, I've seen too many people get burnt by joining a religious community. And the culture doesn't provide any supports for you, eventually you will be worn down and leave, because you weren't raised in it, so the inner supports aren't there for you to keep on going long term.

Believe what you want, but don't join anything. Don't believe anyone who tells you you need to join our group or you'll go to hell, for your own good.

The best thing for you is to find something that can be practiced on your own.

>>1844180
It's actually a Gnostic meme, not all Gnostics believe Yhwh is an evil demiurge, but it's highly made put this way on 4chan because people only look at Gnosticism from outside.

>>1844042
Gnostics don't all believe in lucifer, and many still believe Yhwh as the true God because is very appearant the salvation of the Lord even reading through a lense of Gnosis.

Yhwh is more than the creator and is Lord of all, not to every sect.

The Monad to the Kabalistic Jews is Yhwh, and Kabalah is where most of early Gnosis comes from, so you can't just deny Yhwh and accept Lucifer when Lucifer isn't real and is a mistranslation of Hebrew to Greek

Christianity is best learned by an earnest person who is willing to give up all associations of religion for Christ alone.

Like of all the churches, many of them will have you believe what they want you to believe, and even atheists will have you doing things like denying Paul or whatever, when really, the best way to learn about Jesus, Paul, Moses, or Muhammad even, is by reading the Books and Scriptures they are directly related to, and letting God guide you where you need to go.

>>1845078
Moses is a Gnostic, but not the meme that all gnostics are luciferian and stuff.

Think about it, a lot of the information contained in Gnosis is Hebrew Mysticism, and Hebrews believed in One, the same as all religions have. This is a Kabbalistic idea, which learns from other schools of mystic thought, which are in Christianity, Yoga, Buddhism, Islam, and even "luciferian" thought, pretty much every religion deep at its core will bring you to this One, identify it as Source, and give you the same information in different languages and cultural dialects.

Gnosis is not a religion, and Gnosis doesn't mean deny the Lord of the Old Testament. It can for some, many people have different opinions about different religions, and we are all the same.

Jesus said to "know the fruit by the tree" so everyone is a fruit and or a tree, and so is their religious beliefs. If that person themselves is serious about cultivating the truth, they will bear truthful fruits.

>>1840344
Just join the catholics and the SSPX.

>>1845076
>Read up on other people who joined these groups as adults and 90% of them don't remain in the religion beyond 10 years. Either they leave it, burnt and disillusioned and turn atheist, or just lose steam and stop practicing. It's just not really possible to be religious nowadays.

That sounds interesting, would you recommend any books,articles,videos ect on that matter?

>>1845568
youtube is full of it

>>1845568
http://catholicexchange.com/blessings-religious-burnout

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/75-of-new-u-s-muslim-converts-leave-within-three-years/

>>1845617
Can you reccomend some specific vids, channels or search terms?

>>1845621
Thanks, I was always of the opinion that born agains were the most resilient type of convert

>>1840344
>not being a rand atheist

>>1840344
*kiss feet*

*turn the other cheek*

*let god fuck my wife*

*educate my wife's son*

I'm a good cuckstian ?

>>1845646
For the first 5 years or so they are full of zeal, but it can't be maintained.

There is a similar phenomenon in islam called salafi burnout.

http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/fgtnrevo.htm

>>1845646
"why I left christianity"

>>1845672
Is it for any converts or mainly just those who join later in life as adults?

Neither.
There both filled with false traditions and misinterpretations of the gospel. You're better off sticking to the pure Gospel without the old testament or new testament thrown in there. It's all rubbish.

>>1845684
The Gospel is literally a product of tradition

>>1840344
>vatican Ii memes
Read the documents, it changed nothing meaningful about the church.

Most theological differences between the Catholicism and orthodoxy are either culturally and linguistically driven like the agreement over the filioque, or they're organizational die to long separation.

I for one, pray for reunification.

>>1845682
what do you mean? most people convert to religions in their late teens or as young adults

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>>1841605

>>1845076
>nowadays
Because you witnessed firsthand how much better it was back in the days. Faulty logic.

Not saying I support either but come on dude you can do better.

F- Apply yourself

>>1845753
> it changed nothing meaningful about the church.
>Kikes aren't Christ's killers anymore
>Kikes aren't cursed eternally
>People can change their religion
>Catholicism must not be the state religion anymore
>There is truth-salvation outside the Church

Pick one and only one

Orthodoxy, nigga. Catholicism is for retards.

Course, either one is still better than filthy protestantism.

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If god is everywhere, is he also in my toilet when I take a shit?

>>1846177
Are you even a Christian? All of those sects hold the same ideas with differences that are based off of cultural disagreements.

>>1845684
The Old Testament and Paul's Epistles have the same message and quality of the Gospels, though personally there are "false traditions" that can be seen throughout, but these interpretations comes from very unreliable sources so it's always important to research for ourselves and come to our own conclusions.

>>1845707
The Gospel is a product of more than a tradition. All of the teachings aren't just "tradition" and the messages contained in the Gospel is transcending tradition, and literally is the same eternal truth reverberated throughout time.

>>1841096
Fraticelli, of course.

What is the Catholic and the Orthodox point of view on the pope and papal supremacy?

>>1847503

orthodox reject papal infallibility, they accept him as the "bishop of rome" , but he doesn't have magical powers like the catholics believe.