Balkan history

As a Balkanigger I don't think you'll really find anything unbiased. Maybe start with English wikipedia until you have a somewhat decent grasp of the period you're interested in (which is?). And then maybe start threads here and try to filter out the obvious autistic nationalists.

>>1833578
They wuz romans and tri moreta and shiet.

Then turks came and turned them into the mexicans of Europe.

>>1833578
read history of the balkans from ottoman historians. you ve got the best chance for a good depiction of the balkans from there. Most of the balkanic countries tell their history in nationalistic 20th century purposes. honestly not even people from the balkans know shit about the balkans. only on 4chan is The Balkans something.

t. bulgar

>>18336058
Not really interested in a particular period, but I want to get some objective knowledge on how and why the Balkan became such a divided mess, particularly in the past 100 years.

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is this true guys?? did he killed ottoman so bad??

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>>1833665
>balkan lies
>via 9gag
>memeful.com

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>>1833637
>why the Balkan became such a divided mess
The Ottomans conquered the Balkans in the 14th and 15th century. By the 19th century the demographics would make an autistic kid kill himself. It was bunch of Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, various Muslims, Turks, various other ethnicities, etc. all pretty much crammed together. You could have a city with 30% Turks, 30% Bulgarians, 30% Greeks and 10% Jews and that city would be surrounded by villages with random nationalities. The 19th century was also the age of nationalism so everyone hated everyone else. Also the location of the peninsula meant that the great powers of Europe were all interested in what happens there. Some wanted everything to stay under the Ottoman empire, some wanted to """""""liberate"""""""'' certain peoples to gain control of some region. That was for example the case with the Austro-Hungary (who wanted the Western Balkans) and the Russian empire (who wanted the Eastern Balkans and the straits). Then later when Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria got their countries wars happened because they wanted to divide the Ottoman lands for themselves. Then they started the First Balkan War, they quarrelled over who gets what and then the Second Balkan War happened. Then next year the First World War broke out and there was more fighting. And now everyone is not happy because everyone has been brainwashed since school that everyone else is traitor, savage, backstabber, etc. etc.

>>1833665
>save yourselves, brothers, you have two seconds lol

>>1833678
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>>1833578
>Everything was shit in the past.
>Everything is shit in the present.
>Everything will be shit in the future.
>But at least I'm not a(n) [ethnicity].

This is all you need to know about the Balkans.
t. Croat

>>1833736
And if we ever start uniting again, the west will just swoop in and say no, probably causing another pointless war in the process

>>1833757
>if we ever start uniting again
ha
hahaha
hahahahahahahha
idiot

>>1833852
Unity is the only way forward.

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>>1833879
Way ahead of you, yugocuck.

>>1833900
>way ahead of you
>lets kebabs in
>because muh multiculturalism
Who's the real cuck here m8?

okay,let's unite

what language should we use as a lingua franca

>>1833969
Bulgarian

>>1833969
greek

>>1833969
Nobody except autistic teenage yugos want to unite in some retarded Balkan federation. It's super stupid.

>>1833969
Russian.

>>1834000
You're right. Let's keep flinging shit at each other while the rest of the world laughs at us like we're fucking subhumans. I'm down for that any day

>>1834009
>Russian.
russian is old bulgarian and so is church slavonic

i can think of 3 nations that would disagree

i'd suggest esperanto

reminder that yugoslavia doesn't exist today because serbs wanted it to be a serbia and not a yugoslavia

>>1834015
Russian has too much loan words from Franco and Anglo languages hence it should be easier to learn. Ukrainian, Belarusian, Polish etc. are much closer to old slavonic.

>>1834019
>implying all serbs
>here we go again with the finger pointing
You're thinking of idiotic right wing extremists. Those fucks are despised by everyone with a functioning brain

>>1834010
Again - EU
Nobody wants muh great Serbia again, cuck.

>>1833964
So the same yugos did with albanians?

>>1834010
>we wuz king but dey won't let us be kingz no mo

only way forward is separatism until the individual is the government

>>1834031
i mean the serb government

why do you think voivodina and kosovo became autonomies

so that serbia can have 4 votes in yugo commie party and do whatever it wanted (montenegro included)

there are a lot of those extremists, and were a lot of them, rasied on some ideas that would undermine a union

that said, i agree a union would be the way to go, it doesn't have to be one country, or one federation, just very strong ties on all levels so we can grow

>>1834019

Actually it was the Slovenians chimping out for no fucking reason and then the Croats and Bosnians wanted out because our political leaders were nationalistic autists.

>>1834064
That sounds like a good idea. When I said unity I never meant we should just merge everything into one big country, instead strengthen ties between the countries and put aside the differences caused by years of manupulative foreign influence. Too bad all the autists got triggered

>>1834073
How about new yugoslavia? Slovenia gets 1488 votes and the rest get 1. Seems good.

>>1833665
Yes it is.

>>1834085
>manupulative foreign influence
It's the governments themselves that push the nationalistic "hate your neighbours" narrative since school, you idiot. It's not the evil globalist Jews.

>>1834073
>it was the Slovenians chimping out for no fucking reason

lol ok

>>1833578
ITT: Retarded Westerners with no grasp on the nature of the many divisions and problems in the Balkans ft. Balkaniggers

I don't see the point in Balkanthreads anymore, it was a beautiful shitpoat between us, Balkaniggers, until the ETERNAL (€) EURO came in and f'ed everything up. baka

>>1833578
Misha Glenny's book covering 1804-2012
Imagining the Balkans

>>1833665
Well, what else would you shoot barrels with other than gunpowder? A peashooter?

>>1833578
Disregard Turkish and Austrian sources, they're rather "emotionally invested" in the topic.

>>1833665
He certainly has, but their uprising still failed.

>>1833900
Croats are basically the only people who pride themselves in being someone's servant.While we're at it, you should discard all of your "Yugoslav burden", that includes giving the Italians their land back, especially Dalmatia.

>>1833969
Serbo-Croatian, but we call it for Yugoslav for reasons of states and unity.

dey wuz illyrian n sheet.

>>1833694
Probably the best answer

>>1833694
They're conquered most of the Balkans in the 15th century, the Jajce and Srebrenik Banate held out till the 1530's.For the record, they've never taken Croatia, even at the height of their civilization.

>>1833578
>I've always wanted to know more about the history of the Balkans
Everyone got fucked by everyone, the end.

Also never trust Croats.

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Does anyone know origin of this coat of arms? It is in Zemun, Belgrade.

What would happen if hostilities started up again between Russia and NATO states? Would former Yugoslavs band together again?

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>>1833969
Turkish

>>1838955
>Would former Yugoslavs band together again?
kek, Balkan is irrelevant, now that Montenegro cucked Serbia (and Russia by proxy) out of a port in Mediterranean, nobody cares about this bag of assholes

>>1838974
Yeah I saw that, but was interested by the involvement of Serbian Nationalists. I also know Putin went to visit Slovenia recently, which was apperently unprecedented.

Anyway I don't know too much about it to be honest, but seems like Yugoslavs still have something to link then together if the threads on /Int/ are anything to go by.

>>1833578
The Balkans by Mark Mazower is a pretty good introduction that doesn't favour any particular nationalist narrative.

>>1839052

turn on google translate, they are connected by tfwnogf, being neets and trying to boggle themselves in universe encompassing problems so they don't have to resolve personal issues they might have, just like every other general

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I'd love to find out a bit more about Croatian modern history.

Being under Nationalism and then Communism/Socialism is such a weird history. It seems like half of old Croats liked Tito and the other half liked Pavelic?

Only after watching one of those revisionist youtube videos did I learn who this guy was, strangely enough this exact painting is hanging up at my Grandfathers place here in Australia.

I really should ask the family what there views of Nationalism & Communism are and what it was like to be adults in Australia at the time of the war of independence.

Fascinating stuff, just can't find any good books aye.

>>1839763
Kek... Your grandfather was a Ustaša, like most of the diaspora that fled after ww2... I am on phone and to lazy atm, but there is couple of great documentaries on yt with English subtitles

>>1839947
That's the crazy thing, he probably was but he was also incredibly hardworking, the kindest old man and extremely quiet. I wonder what stories he's told his kids if any.

>>1839985
Why don't you ask them and I didn't said it as a bad thing...Same thing on my side my btw my fellow colonial croat

>>1840043
Died a couple of years ago, I don't speak Croatian fluent enough to have an intellectual conversation. I might ask my uncle but I'd love to find some "red pilled" books, I feel like that whole area of Europe has some of the most manipulated history around.

>>1840136
Also an Australian Croat here. My grandma lived through the war but she was like 10 and hates Germans with a passion.
I feel like asking questions might be a bit traumatic aye. Which sucks because I'd love to know more about what it was like, other than 'tito was the best because he made the price of bread the same everywhere.'

>>1838955
Only if we've faced a lethal common threat, like in World War II.

>>1841105
You don't know much about WWII history in Yugoslavia do you? Only in Bosnia there was constant warfare like this:

>Muslim militia against Chetniks
>Chetniks against partizans
>Chetniks against Germans
>Chetniks and Germans against partizans
>Ustasha (inc. Muslims) against Serb civilians and Chetniks
>Chetniks against Muslim civilians
>Partizans against Ustasha
>Mix some Muslim SS after 1943
>Various German offensives

???

It sounds like a meme but many families sent their sons to varying factions in the war so one could, as they hoped, be on the winning side/survive.

>>1841257
True to some extent, but in later stages, people had realized that the common threat lies there where commands are ushered in German and Italian, not native languages.

>>1834050
you are literally retarded.

>>1841267
The partizans started with a massive Serb influx because the Serbs were getting genocided by the Ustasha and Muslims. On the other hand there are some noted Genocidal activities of the partizans against Croat/Muslim villages, not to speak of the royal Chetniks and their operations. Nevertheless a militarization of society ensued and so it was just normal that a greater influx of people joined the partizans and other factions. You are right that in the later stages there was a "common partizan cause" because it was clear by then that the Germans and with them the Ustashe will inevitably lose. So no one was really hot on Gulag/Siberia/getting shot in a ditch when the Red army gets to Yugoslavia. It is noted that whole units of Ustasha/muslim local militia joined the partizans in the later days when it became clear that the war will end like this. There wasn't much love or "against a common foe" thinking in these decisions. How would it be? For a new Yugoslavia? The Muslims and the Croats didn't like the old Serb dominated one either.

>>1841269
Hypothetically if you shitskins attack us we would unite in a blink of the eye...

>>1841269
Yugoslavia has achieved more in her short 45 years than you have in nearly 620.

>>1841285
The Partisans had proven to be the least of all evils and unlike others, they didn't brutalize the civilian population, hence the sudden rise in their popularity.They weren't just seen as a better option, they've proven to be a better option and quite good at unifying those who've hated themselves since time immemorial.

> thinking in these decisions

There certainly was, at least in the case of the Muslims.The only reason why they've joined the SS was to protect their people from Chetnik violence in Eastern Bosnia, they've begun to abandon the German army in droves once they've seen it's true face.

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>>1841305
Some brown kebab calls you a fag... Not even mad desu

>>1841308
>they didn't brutalize the civilian population.

You could argue about that. They certainly did to an extent. Your judgement about the Bosnian SS affair is mostly right. Although the Communist were totalitarists too, they did some slaughtering of their own, especially after 1945 (Huda Jama and such...). Many innocent people died just because they were conscripted into the Domobrans and such, and because they were at the wrong place at the wrong. In this political constellation they were maybe, the least bad option, but still there are people that want to portray them as blameless "antifascist" saints... so well, that is not right either. From the rural part of Bosnia I know well the people feared the partizans more than the Germans.

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>>1836092
Warsaw-Prague-Vienna-Budapest-Ljubljana-Zagreb-Tirana-Sophia-Ankara Axis when?

>>1841330
Also, the Austro-Hungarians are best thing that happened to Bosnia. Prove me wrong.

>>1841331
Soon, but without kebabs

>>1841308
>>1841330
Partisan actions led to the formation of the first village militias in 1942. The most violence against civilians took place after the communists took complete control over the army in 1943 as political commissars became the de facto commanders.

>Balkans wuz good boiz
>Balkans wuz Byzantines
>TURKS REEE
>five hundred years later
>No, you are the turk
>No, you are the turk

>>1833969
no question, turkish.

>>1841356
In the textbooks please. No need for any more history.

>>1833757
I don't think the west gives two shits whether you unite or not m8 , also you have proven yourselves incapable of that, so why try again?

But sure the west must be the fault of it all.

>>1841331
I have not seen anything as retarded as this ib my entire life

>>1841367
the reason they didn't accomplish shit was because they were lorded over by turks for so much of their history.

>>1833969
yugoslavian (serbo-croat) of course

>>1841367
turks didnt accomplish much besides destruction and pillaging of betters

>>1841492
for turks to fuck something else than goats

Well I can recommend you good literature, but I need to know what exactly interests you - what period, what topic, etc.

>>1833637
Oh, so you need 19th and 20th century:

The basis:
Maria Todorova, Imagining the Balkans

The 19th century:
L. S. Stavrianos, The Balkans Since 1453
Ilber Ortayli, The Longest Century of the Empire
A. J. P. Taylor, The Habsburg Monarchy 1809-1918
Stevan K. Pavlowitch, A History of the Balkans 1804–1945

The 20th century:
Stevan K. Pavlowitch, The Improbable Survivor: Yugoslavia and its Problems 1918–1988
Richard Clogg, A Concise History of Greece
Stephane Groueff. Crown of Thorns: The Reign of King Boris III of Bulgaria, 1918–1943
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Essential_History_of_Bulgaria_in_Seven_Pages
Ana S. Trbovich, A Legal Geography of Yugoslavia's Disintegration

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>>1841312
>"""REMOVED""" kebab
>get occupied for 400 years
The cognitive dissonance amongst you balkaners is amazing

>>1842011
>20.000-70.000
Seems like legit numbers have been employed

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>>1839763
If your Croatian grandpa moved to Australia and had a picture of Pavelic on his wall, there's a good chance he was either an ustasha, or at the very least just a sympathizer/nationalist.
Same goes for Argentina as well as Serbian diaspora in the two countries.
Great grand uncle was a chetnik officer that moved to Argentina. His direct descendants had a lot of problems with the communist government.
>>1841308
Why did the partisans kill an 80 year old, defenseless, retired Serbian WW1 decorated general in his home? He did nothing in WW2.

>>1839763
>đedo Ustaša
Hahahahhaha
Kys pls

>>1842179
>đedo Ustaša

Then Pavelic was right then? Good to know.

>>1842011
I am not a Serb you sheepish kebab t. Croat

>>1842011

> Killing men while they are sleeping

> "Battle"

>>1833969
English, like you're all doing right now lol

>>1842011
Killing men in their sleep is considered a great victory?

>>1841349
>>1841330

>The most violence against civilians took place after the communists took complete control over the army in 1943 as political commissars became the commanders

If that were true, then civilians would've never supported them, let alone join them in vast numbers.As I've said, most of their power came from the overwhelming support of the common Yugoslav man and their guerrilla-styled warfare.

Most of the civilian casualties were inflicted by the German army and the short-lived Croatian regime, although I agree that there were several incidents where the Partisans have openly committed atrocities against the civilians populace.

>Many innocent people died just because they were conscripted into the Domobrans and such

And far more innocents were killed by them, yet none of them objected.

> In this political constellation they were maybe, the least bad option

They undoubtedly were, no point in attempting to go "all millennial German" on me and paint them all as the same.

>>1841335
More than 91% of all institutions in Bosnia and Herzegovina were built during Yugoslavia' reign, they've also rebuilt the country's housing fund, which was utterly devastated in World War II.

>>1845771
>then civilians would've never supported them
They didn't have much of a chance, especially after it was clear the partisans were on the side of the victors.
>let alone join them in vast numbers
Forced conscription. And really, the numbers only grew considerably after 1943 and even then it wasn't like everybody joined.

>>1845853

>They didn't have much of a chance
In hindsight, Germans and their local allies committing atrocities left and right didn't leave them much choice and the Partisans weren't merely on the side of the victors, they've emerged victorious in all of the offensives that were led against them, although with large casualties.

>Forced conscription

You're confusing them with Germans.

>>1839763
>>1840396
>klokani
Kek.

>>1846019
No, all sides in the war conscripted civilians. And yes, it is true that the occupying forces commited the most atrocities but there should be no excuse for atrocities on both sides. The partisans were used as a means to secure a revolution just as much as they were a liberating force.

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>>1833578
Here are the Balkan members at a meeting for Slavs only

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>>1833578

Balkand tl;dl

>FUCK YOU NIGGER!
>NO FUCK YOOOOU NIGGER!!!
>FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOOOOOOU!!!!!
>FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOOOOU!!!!
>RRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>1847194
They've caused the least amount of casualties and could you name an instance where they've conscripted civilians for their cause?For the sake of the argument, of course.

>>1847633
It's no okay, no matter how many they murdered. Thousands of civilians were murdered after the war.

People were forced to join the partisans nearby. One of my friends had two relatives (don't remember how exactly they were related) who were brothers and one was taken by the Germans and sent to the Soviet Union while the other was taken by the partisans. My grandfather joined voluntarily in 1943, though. It might have prevented the communists killing him after the war.