Aztec/Mesoamerican Thread

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>>1827744

Padded cloth and packed cotton are easy to underestimate as armor, but they're actually extremely protective. A test on a TV show (just use keywords in youtube its not hard to find) demonstrates how a padded linen cuiress stopped a 140 lb english warbow with a bodkin point.

The weapons the Aztecs faced were all either blunt, or lined with fragile obsidian blades, meaning that less protection was required. Wooden helmets protected veteran soldiers, as well as full body suits of thick cloth. Although more protective, intricate battle attire was reserved for those who demonstrated skill, some levied troops may have been issued padded armor, but this is still unclear.

Plus, it's hot as shit in Mexico. Especially when they began conducting campaigns in the jungles like in Xoconochco. Lighter armor = more comfort.

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>>1827756

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>>1827766

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>>1827767

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>>1827767
Fucked up. Hopefully higher res now.

>>1827744
>thinks about what couldve happened if colombus just fucking died in the ocean instead of reaching the americas

feels bad

>>1827783

He didn't even need to die in the ocean. Just imagine if the Amerindians weren't incredibly susceptible to European diseases. Might have actually seen the old world empires have a fighting chance against the euros, last long enough to partially westernize, or at least assimilate more of their values/population into new world culture & society.

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>>1827744
Any good book/documentary recommendations?

I'm more interested in the Maya (mostly because of their Jungle terrain) but all Mesoamerican cultures fascinate me, even the Inca.

Any information on how difficult/dangerous it is to actually travel to Mesoamerican sights? I want to see Teotihuacan, Chichen Itza, and Palenque (and the Mexico City Museum of Anthropology), at some point. Any other neat sights worth visiting?

>>1827825

For the Aztecs, I can't recommend Ross Hassigs books enough. They're excellent. Michael Smith's archaeological work is also fantastic.

There are a few well known authors for the Maya but I dont have my books with me right now so I forget what they are. A speaker is coming to my college next month, his name is Mark Zender. He's worked on Maya iconography and linguistics so if you're interested in that maybe look him up?

Those three sites are major tourist locations so they'll be perfectly safe. Tzintzuntzan, Zacatecos, Tikal, and the center of Mexico city all have interesting sites. Never been there myself but someday I hope to go.

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>>1827744
I know the Aztecs didn't always sacrifice other tribes and civilizations, but they did enough to earn many enemies.

Why would the Aztecs (as a large confederacy) tolerate their existence of smaller confederacies and tribes once they knew they were hated?

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>>1827816
I know the Tlaxcalans were awarded great praise and rights inside New Spain. Their help against the Nahua was written about by some Spanish and the royalty recognized it. I remember an anon brought up that some of them ended up fighting in North Africa against pirates. Not sure how accurate it is because I am far from an expert on the topic

>you will never live in a civilization which's warfare is bases heavily on battle fursuits

>>1828840
>Why would the Aztecs (as a large confederacy) tolerate their existence of smaller confederacies and tribes once they knew they were hated?
So they could have a reason to wage war and capture warriors when they tried to revolt. That's also the reason the Aztecs did not build forts to secure the conquered regions.

>>1828840

OP

The Aztecs could have mobilized a large enough army to conquer the Tlaxcalans, but the tlaxcalans still controlled a fairly large amount of territory and taking it would have resulted in a very large number of casualties.

The Aztecs could have mobilized 400,000, maybe 500,000 men if they needed to, but the tlaxcalans could have mobilized at least 100,000 (according to Hassig and historical texts).

Sure they could conquer tlaxcala, but the advantage would lie with the defender and the Aztecs would probably lose half of their army in the process.

Aztec imperial domination relied heavily on a perception of power, because conquered tribes remained largely autonomous. If the Aztecs suffered major casualties, they would be percieved as weak and rebellions would break out throughout the empire.

In short, why conquer them outright when you can simply surround them and starve them of resources? Its more efficient. And they used that strategy for a lot of stubborn, hostile tribes.

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>>1829131
I see what you mean. Having a powerful appearance meant more than showing it.

>>1828887
>OffByOne-Kenobi
And that makes sense too. The forts would cost money and time, end up being lost during the revolt, and forced to be recaptured so you could then sacrifice the rebels inside

>>1827825
For the Maya I recommend Michael Coe for a general understanding especially if you plan to see sites, Eric Thompson while outdated a bit is good, Stephen Houston, Nikolai Grube, Dennis Tedlock (maya literature), Robert Carmack for Kiche Maya, Mary Ellen Miller if you're looking for art, Simon Martin for history especially classic period.

OP, are you Mexican by any chance?

>>1827825
>>1829201
>Any other neat sights worth visiting?
I would add Tulum, Copan, Uxmal, Iximche, Quirigua, Comalcalco. This site may help you understand a bit of the sites http://uncoveredhistory.com/

Not OP, but I research the Maya heavily so feel free to ask me questions.

>>1829208

Haha no I'm from fuckin Minnesota dude. I'm whiter than the four feet of snow we get every year.

I just really fucking love this topic for whatever reason.

Was there a real concern among the Mayans of the League of Mayapan of Aztec expansion? It seemed like they were growing rapidly enough to pose a serious threat eventually.

>>1829229
There isn't much of an indication of that, the league had fallen to an internal revolt by the time the Aztecs really began expanding in the 1450s. At most there was trade, probably through Xicallanco which had Nahua merchants there. There are depictions of Maya deities with Nahua features, some of them mixed up. Like a hybrid of the Maya scribal money deity with Xolotl and Ehecatl.

>>1829255
So it was basically "they're too far away to pose a threat to us" sort of thing?

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>>1827861
>>1829201
>>1829224
Thanks for the info anons.

I've never really delved past pop-history level with Mesoamericans cultures but i've always been kinda fascinated with them. I think i'm going to make an effort to read more deeply on the subject now that i've been pointed in the right direction.

>>1829224
Out of curiosity, how do you actually feel about people visiting Mayan and other Mesoamerican sights? I know that some researchers are unhappy with tourism to these kinds of places because it can harm the structures over time and tourists can have sticky fingers.

>>1829264
I would think so. A more immediate threat would be the their Maya nieghbors, and the rival dynasties within the league.

>>1829277
I think it's cool there's interest, of course there's always assholes who tag up the sites. Obviously with excessive tourism it can cause damage to sites as they've had to close down some structures - chichen itzas el castillo being a major example. Tulum also has been busy with tourism and it's concerning some people. That said I think bigger concerns are looting of sites, sometimes actual bulldozers are used. Another problem is development around the sites. I think it's a tricky situation as you want people interested in the cultures and people seeing them, but you don't want to give sites too much attention at the same time.

>>1827744
SPANISHITS BURNED ALL THEIR BOOKS THEY BURNED ALL THE BOOK THAT COULD AHVE EXPLAINED THE SHIT THAT WAS GOING ON BEFORE THEIR ARRIVAL
THANK YOU CHRISTIANS FUCKING JESUITS GET OUT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>1827825
>even
What makes the Inca boring to you, anon?

>>1829465
I don't find them boring, just not as interesting as the Aztec, Maya, Toltecs, Olmecs, etc.

It's probably just ignorance on my part. I don't really know much about the Inca (or any other South American civilizations for that matter).

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>Aztec/Mesoamerica thread
>no sign of the "Viva la raza" chicano and how Tenochtitlan is the greatest city to grace the planet

>>1827825
>Mesoamerican cultures fascinate me, even the Inca.
>Mesoamerican
>Inca

>>1829546
Not to get out of topic too much but check out the Muisca, Inca and Amazonian groups (Xingu, Marajo). The Chilean museum has some good stuff. http://www.precolombino.cl/en/

>no mention of the Olmec

Missing out

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>>1829639

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>>1829639
The Olmec really don't get discussed enough.

>>1829689
They aren't well understood that is why. We have yet to decipher their glyphs too.

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3000 year old olmec city lost in crops

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Was Teotihuacan Mesoamerica's greatest city?

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>>1832394
HERE WE GO

>>1827744

Do you have any idea why Tarascan metalworking, especially bronze and copper practical tools, never seemed to diffuse to the Aztecs?

>>1832394
Prolly

>>1829562
>Aztec/Mesoamerica thread
>no sign of the "Viva la raza" chicano and how Tenochtitlan is the greatest city to grace the planet
>>1832401
>HERE WE GO
You got your cities mixed up, I was talking about Teotihuacan not Tenochtitlan.And I meant greatest within the context of Mesoamerica, not the planet. And my initial question was serious, I know there are other cities that could be contenders like Tenochtitlan itself, Cholula or perhaps Chichen Itza. They all were referred to as Tollans in anycase.

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Mesoamerican storytime.

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>>1832402

OP

You're right when you say that the techniques never made it to central mexico, but many of the materials did. Bronze tools and implements like axes, bells, needles, etc. are very common in Aztec territories, even in poor villages which suggests that the tools were cheap to import from the Tarascans. This occurred even when the Aztecs were at war with the Tarascans, meaning that free trade between independent merchants was important enough to be left alone by both governments.

Michoacan is a very isolated location in mesoamerica, to the point where foreign incursion never really seems to have occurred. In addition, they developed their own language and cultural traditions which in some ways resembled other mesoamerican cultures, but was still distinct. Simply put, a lack of easy communication was probably responsible for the craft never diffusing to the rest of mesoamerica.

There is no evidence that they used bronze for weapons/armor. They didnt really need to, as wood and padded cotton provided adequate protection against the obsidian weapons of the time.

Innovation occurred much slower in Mesoamerica than elsewhere. Lack of pack animals greatly slowed down merchants (the primary diffuser of ideas), and a lack of advanced/extensive seaborn trade caused the same problem.

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>>1832533

OP

Keep in mind how advanced tenochtitlan was in relation to Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan was unique in terms of its rather incredible centralized social structure. This led to well planned temple complexes and city districts, the presence of apartment buildings, and a high degree of specialization, especially in obsidian craftsmanship.

By comparison, Tenochtitlan was about twice the size of Teotihuacan in terms of population (125,000 vs ~250,000). The presence of water around tenochtitlan presented both a challenge and an advantage. To mitigate flooding, they built a levee that was about 10 miles long and split Lake Texcoco in half. The advantage lies in movement however, as the city was crisscrossed with canals and the island was surrounded by ports. This made the movement of people, materials, and goods extrememely efficient, something that Teotihuacan could not rival.

They built two twin pipe aqueducts, each several miles long, to provide water for the city. A system of underground pipes also fed several reservoirs for storage. Much of the island itself was artificial, constructed of wooden fence-enclosed plots of land. In addition, the temple complexes were supported by thousands of large wooden pylons (tree trunks basically) driven into the lakebed.

It had advanced social stratification with some (possibly innaccurate) estimates suggesting that 75% of the population was dedicated to urban crafts, soldiering, etc. instead of agriculture.

Also, Teotihuacan lacked a centralized military, something that Tenochtitlan utilized and benefitted from since the city's construction.

Teotihuacan was impressive. Tenochtitlan's grandeur was something that couldnt be imagined in your most vivid dreams.

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>>1827770
>>1827770

Those designs. That linothorax.

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>>1828882
>you'll never see divisions of butterflies owning the battlefields while being commanded by skeletons

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What was Mesoamerican chocolate like? I just know that they drank it from fancy cups and that it was apparently pretty bitter.

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>>1833465
I love these fancy cups.

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>>1833474

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>>1833478

>>1833465
I've read that they liked to put spices and pepper in at as well.

It probably tasted like a spicy dark chocolate kinda deal.

>>1833465
The cocoa beans were prepared like coffee beans are today
The result would've been super fucking bitter

>>1829434
Then why do u belive in Christianity?

What can you tell me about Teotl OP?

>>1833929

They sell some today called "criobru", this thread reminded me that I wanted to try some and I ordered it online.

>>1834822

Not a whole lot. Its havent really read up on mythology all that much....

But from what I understand "Teotl" is more of an omnipresent force than an actually god. So theoretically, it would be like Mana or some other spiritual energy.

Aztec philosophical thought was all about balancing good and bad acts, so as not to be too excessive in either regard. It wasnt like western thought where there are two inherently dichotomous forces (objective good and obj. Evil) constantly in a state of conflict. Thats why a lot of Aztec gods (as with most polytheistic traditions) did both good and bad things.

I read part of an interesting paper (forgot the name, sorry) which theorized that Teotl was actually a part of a largely misunderstood Aztec god called "Ometeotl". The paper suggested that, perhaps, the priestly class was actually monotheistic or pantheistic and believed that all of the "Gods" of the Aztec pantheon were all the same supernatural being. Never finished reading it though so I dunno.

There are a few books on the subject, but like I said, thats never really been my primary focus.

>>1835570
I think I read something similar by Miguel Leon Portilla. What I've kind of come to understanding is that it was like energy or a force.

>>1833465
>>1833474
>>1833478
>>1833482
Better than lot of manga mags desu.