Do you think Christianity ruin the Roman empire?

Not according to our nigga St. Augustine. Rome was bound to fail anyway and Chrisitianity sustained it a little longer

It's more like the vermin that grow on the rotten carcass, or the disease that infects a weak body. Christianity was the symptom, not the disease.

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Yes, it was one of many reasons of Roman Collapse.

>>1816954

t. Nero

>>1816961
>Imperialism
>Impotence
>Militarism
>Lack of military recruits
>Racial degeneration
>Racial discrimination
???

>>1816961
>Militarism
>Pacifism
Into the trash it goes.

>>1816969
>>1816971
I hope you guys are aware that the Roman Empire was huge entity that existed for almost 2000 years, conflicting reasons might have been in effect centuries apart or taken place in different region, also societies are never homogeneous meaning opposing ideologies such as both pacifism and militarism can exist next to each other

Christianity brings all evil things to ruin. Where the Antichrist once brought horrors is now sacred.

>>1816946
Christianity was a symptom of the decline, not the cause of it

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>>1816991
>Roman Empire was huge entity that existed for almost 2000 years

>>1816946
Christianity needs to be more dogmatic, we need to start burning alive when they break commandments, humans will only ever obey if the consequence is immediate.

>>1817033
>5th century BC
>15th century AD

>>1817185
The Roman Empire began in 27 BC and ended in 476 AD.

>>1817185
>tiny ass byzantine exclaves are on par and represent the original Empire

>>1817061
Muslim tier thinking

>>1817188
>The Roman Empire began in 27 BC and ended in 476 AD
"Imperium Romanum" refers to the territory of the Roman state regardless of government
>tiny ass byzantine exclaves are on par and represent the original Empire
Same entity

>>1816946
Maybe, but it really hasn't been shown to be directly linked to the transformation

>>1817061
I genuinely think burning at the stake should be brought back as execution for the most heinous of crimes. You know the really monstrous shit like raping a toddler to death, or cannibalism.

>>1817211
>"Imperium Romanum" refers to the territory of the Roman state regardless of government
It doesn't. It's probably not even a contemporaneous term.

>>1817223
>It's probably not even a contemporaneous term.
Cicero used that name for the territory under the control of Rome, only calling the Principate/Dominate "Roman Empire" is British semantics and might not be entirely correct

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>>1816946
The Roman Empire represented the pinnacle of classical "Apollonian" culture whose core tenet was that if you were strong and powerful it was because the Gods favored you and if you were weak and unfortunate it was because you lacked faith and needed to pray harder. This was an age of war, and the Romans were better at it than anyone because they realized that the key to a strong military is a strong economy, less about winning pitched battles and more about outlasting their opponents

But at its very core it was a conquest society built on the principle that there would always be someone else to conquer, a new people to rob and enslave. As long as they could maintain this constant influx of foreign capital and disposable labor their existence was assured. When they ran out of peoples worth conquering in the late 2nd century their society began a precipitous decline as they clung to their Apollonian mindsets and turned on each other in a relentless tide of internecine warfare which grind their culture to ash

Their culture was destined to fail, it is not an ethos suited for societies of that size and complexity, where maintaining a force monopoly over such large territories is difficult, especially when there are such huge numbers of impoverished, disenfranchised veterans still thirsting for military glory being lead by generals who literally thought that they were gods being denied a place in history

The common era ethos, exemplified by the golden rule and the tale of Jesus Christ, did not become a major power player in Roman politics until late in the 3rd century (being only a convenient scapegoat for a long time) after a century of nearly continuous warfare and an endless parade of barracks emperors had destroyed the economy. It spread like wildfire among the disenfranchised, especially among soldiers, a fact which did not go unnoticed by Constantine. The Domitiate was a ending of a hypocrisy about Roman liberty and the dawning of a new Christian era.

>>1816946
Absolutely not, Christianity was just the next era. The Roman Empire was a decaying force with low birth rate among native Latins and many religious exports from the East without Christianity. Christianity is just the religion that would end up successful.

It survived 1000 more years while being Christian, so no.

>>1817254
Great explanation !

Off topic but related : How would you explain the rise of liberalism or other secular societies (including communism) from Christian societies?

>>1816946

It was ruining itself at the end, splitting up their kingdoms, people claiming to Emperor of Rome, it was starting to fall even at the time Emperor's were beginning to come into power, the political system of two consul was quite stable because it lacked the amount of power that one leader had.

>>1816946
Good for the poor and majority of the uneducated

Bad for the aristocracy

>>1816946
It didn't ruin Rome but religious divisions was certainly one of the factors that hastened it's demise.

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>>1817273
Thank you very much.

The common era ethos is exemplified by the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have done unto yourself", is at its core an idea of human equality, that no matter how rich and famous you were in life you will ultimately be judged before God in an equal way as someone who didn't have those things, and the key to heaven is treating other people in a way that is equal to the way you want to be treated.

Liberalism and socialism are both examples of societies pushing the golden rule ethos to its logical conclusions.

Socialism is this idea that the economy should be structured for true economic equality, a theory which looks great on paper but in practice has proven much more difficult to implement, as government dominated societies have proven incredibly susceptible to sclerosis and ideological ritualism. Communism was an early crude attempt at implementing such a "classless" society, and were by and large abysmal failures.

A liberal is a secularized Faustian Christian, someone who applies the "sold their soul to the devil" meme to organized religion and traditional conservatism and eschews the traditional cultural historiography. It ties in very heavily with the modern Western neoliberal status quo which is built on free trade, free immigration, and the free flow of information, which some see as causing traditional cultural values to wither into nothingness and be replaced by a society of soulless commercialism and artificial spirituality on the verge of total collapse.
Others think that we are at the dawning of a new age, like the transition from the old Apollonian to the modern Christian era, but where knowledge will allow us to make the transition smooth and peaceful, leading us to a societal change so profound that it will radically redefine our concept of what it means to be human.

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Obligatory comic to describe these threads.

>>1817219
>atheists

>>1816946
No, it was the Germans and East Rome.

>>1816946
It actually saved it from an earlier collapse with Constantine

The schism destroyed rome more than anything else

>>1817219
Why? Barbarism does nothing to make an executed criminal more executed. It speaks to nothing but the mental state of the executioner.

>>1817223
Imperium means power, dominion, rule -- the continuous roman civilization survived nearly two millenia.

>>1816946
The Byzantine empire lasted more than the Roman empire did so I doubt it.

>>1817254
>The Domitiate was a ending of a hypocrisy about Roman liberty and the dawning of a new Christian era.
You post kinda implies Europe has ditched that Roman need for conquest...

>>1816961
>stoicism
>communism

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>>1816946
>Be me
>be Christ-fag
>roman gentiles think I'm incestuous, a cannibal and atheistic
>mfw they misunderstand us

>Be me
>its the eucharist
>am still christfag
>talked with a roman centurio-bro earlier
>checked if he was Christ-fag (drew fish in sand while talking)
>he drew one back
>ohellyeah.jpg
>bring him to underground Christian lord supper
>he loves Christ
>mfw romans finally understand us better

>be time of nero
>nero is probably the best of the sea as mentioned in johns revalations
>my brothers and sisters are mostly dead, I'm one of a few survivors
>most of the original books were burned
>mfw there are no more autographs left by the original 12 apostles.

its the 21st century now. I think Rome destroyed itself and Christians were just used as a scapegoat.

>>1820246
communists believe history is all about people of a lower class overthrowing ones of higher class and used Rome as an example of this occurring

>stoically sitting by while the country decays and falls.

>>1820266
this

>>1820269
literally what?

you could add Soviet Union to the list and it would make about the same amount of sense

>stoically sitting by while the country decays and falls
>implying this is the fault of Stoicism and not chairs
>implying chairs weren't the downfall of the roman empire

>>1820299
it was the commie manifesto that said this not me

>>1817254
*gods
They did not pray to a collection of monotheistic Hebrew interpretations of monotheism.
>Apollonian
Nice
The Romans won almost every pitched battle....
Their economy was a powerhouse, though we should keep in mind a lot of it was the result of military conquest stimulating the markets, the baseline was the large Italian family (lots of strapping young lads ready for service, so maybe lots of farms as well for the food) and always going the extra mile militarily, patience.
I suppose I would also add Rome needed a new religion, they had shifted religious fervor and devotion from the gods to the state and the emperor.
The Emperor was not an advocate for everyone, not even most, usually just the strongest portion of the army.
If your gods can't even look out for you then who can?
The Christ came unto all men, this would obviously appeal to the disenfranchised as you put it.

Read Spengler, Romans were niggers who weren't really capable of caring about and planning for the long future.
When everyone shits in the corner of the room on the floor, the first person who figured out to shit in a designated box, Toiletus becomes known as the inventor or "father" of hygiene, their great contributions to the world are as much a result of just being slightly non-retarded.

no
>rampant corruption
>backwards administrative apparatus that required everything big be done in Rome
>legions becoming less like an imperial defense force and more like every general's private army
>continued bullying of non-Romans despite heavy taxation
>the lack of any significant adversary after the fall of Carthage and the conquest of Gaul
these all existed way before Christianity

>>1820328
Anyone notice how America is like a modern version of Rome?
just look at this >>1820328
and replace rome/romans with America/americans.

>>1817406
Not too far off from whats happening right now!

>>1820407
it's incredibly hard to see a threat to America's primacy right now. Even the biggest sceptics basically say that the toughest challenge for the USA in the 21st century will be to deal with the resurgence of the bi- or tri-polar world of the Cold War after China reaches near-parity

>>1820425
political corruption was where romes problems started.
Political corruption has started in America recently.
Its just a matter of time you guys!

>>1820435
arguably the most corrupt time (prohibition) in America was the years leading up to WW2 and their strongest dominance

>>1820435
>Political corruption has started in America recently.
>recently

>>1816946
The Roman Empire ruined Christianity.

>>1816953
Taking this a step further, Rome and Christianity and symbiotic. Christianity is destroyed by Conservative Jews without the Pax Romana, and Rome is forgotten for Constantinople without the Church in Rome.r

>>1817406
This comic is shit and completely fucks up the template. The OP is supposed to ask a relatively unrelated question, which gets completely derailed into a different shitflinging topic. Why exactly are we supposed to give a shit about the OP if he's the retard who willingly started the shitshow?

>>1817033

You're retarded.

>>1816961
>Decline of Nordic character

>>1816946
Fuck off Gibbon, your assertion is retarded.

>>1816946
There isn't one single reason Rome fell. It was a massive system that took hundreds of years to fall after minor cracks became cascading system failures.

You had:
>Precedence of armies being loyal only to those who pay them
>A shortage of willing enlistment after years of civil war made joining the army like Russian roulette, creating a reliance on foreign soldiers
>A general mistrust and disrespect of said soldiers despite the fact they made up the majority of the fighting force
>A poorly established inheritance for the emperor leading to decades of civil war
>A fucked economy thanks to said civil wars and zero understanding of inflation
>Religious divisions creating strife
>Rome's most capable generals were assassinated for being too great a threat to the throne
>Years of internal strife and politicing weakening the system with nobody fully understanding just how weak they were in the face of actual threats

By the time the migrations started, the Western Empire had spent too long destroying itself to do anything about it.

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>>1822163
Great post

>>1816946
I think barbaric Germans did

>>1816961
>decline of the nordic character
WE

>>1822521
WUZ

Why would you want such a large blob of land ruled by one corrupt ineffectual Italian asshole?
The best thing the Roman empire ever did was break itself up into successor kingdoms.

>>1817273
>>1817379

Excellent information. What is some further reading I could do on this topic? Any specific books you would recommend?

>>1817802
Its this pussy thinking that has Europe full of muslim garbage.

>>1822638
And yet you didn't actually point out anything to argue it, just muh ad hominem and those damn dirty mudslimes.

>>1822594
CIVILIZED N SHIEEEEEET

>>1820456
recently is within the past 100 years.

>>1823001
Implying that it hasn't been a shitshow since the beginning

>>1817379
>profound that it will radically redefine our concept of what it means to be human.
That's debatable. All in all, you did a good summary of western culture and tradition.
Well done senpai!