Dark Ages Question

Illiterate peasants lived in hovels, not in stone houses.

A house like this likely belonged to an educated burgher.

>>1808398
How did they build the Hovels? Just from what they could figure out? Also how come in movies when they go to a medievil village all the houses look like pic related.

>>1808392
>Literacy correlates with intelligence

The only retarded one here is you OP

>>1808425
Someone could be very Intelligent but if they never went to College for architecture or structural engineering they'd never know how to build a house with complex designs like that. It looks simple but you can tell the way the wood is crossed it was well thought out.

>>1808392
No one was stupid in "The Dark Ages"
The Enlightenment faggots called it that with disdain to separate themselves form the past.
They got everything else wrong as well....
Kant wiped the floor with them intellectually and Nietzsche+Marx destroyed their progressive philosophy (Marx, progress can not be done by man but must come through uncontrollable socio-economic shifts. Nietzsche, Man is a vile despicable wretch worthy of nothing but enslavement to the most powerful among his kind, his critique is the greatest refutation to Enlightenment progressivism.)

Seriously, they only fucked us over and gave us almost nothing in return, even the founding fathers wanted to fuck things up with our government, fortunately they never got the chance to let that bastard Jefferson get his grubby hands on The Constitution.

In the "Dark Ages" literacy rose to levels above that of the Roman classical era in Charlemagne's empire, same for Alfred's England.

>>1808412
Building thatched homes and mud huts is something that European peasants had literally been doing since the Neolithic.

>>1808437
>No one was stupid in "The Dark Ages"
>The Enlightenment faggots called it that with disdain to separate themselves form the past.
>They got everything else wrong as well....
>Kant wiped the floor with them intellectually and Nietzsche+Marx destroyed their progressive philosophy (Marx, progress can not be done by man but must come through uncontrollable socio-economic shifts. Nietzsche, Man is a vile despicable wretch worthy of nothing but enslavement to the most powerful among his kind, his critique is the greatest refutation to Enlightenment progressivism.)

First off I addressed the point of it not actually being as bad as they say. Even if it's true that the dark ages weren't that uncivilized and barbaric, it would still be impossible for farmers to get educated. Farmers live far from cities to farm because a lot of room is needed, and because there was no cars back then it would be impossible for the farmers children to constantly go to school everyday in the city. Therefor farmers were still as uneducated as ever even in the dark ages. Somehow they still managed to construct shit.

My second point is you are wrong about Marx and Nietzsche. The philosophers from the Enlightenment thought of concepts like freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Marx and Nietzsche had defeatist primitive philosophies that saw man as a tool of enslavement. Nietzsche philosophy of "the weak should fear the strong" is very ironic considering he got his ass kicked as a kid because he had autism (they didn't call it that at the time but he was very socially inept)

>>1808450
You don't need to be educated at an institution to understand how to make something

>>1808450
To answer the OP question.

Tradesmen typically don't rely on formal education or written knowledge.

The skills are taught on the job, and passed from father to son.

Hence, basic masonry and carpentry skills wouldn't suffer from a decline in social complexity the way aqueducts and pyramids would.

>>1808440
Alright true. But even today building barns requires engineers or architects.

>>1808462
No they don't. Look at the Amish.

>>1808462
Typically even a small settlement will have tradesmen and specialists of some sort.

Even totally illiterate tribal cultures would have blacksmiths and such who worked off of accumulated knowledge.

There's a reason "the village blacksmith" is an archetype, it's a form of engineering that is almost impossible to remove once people have learned it.

>>1808455
Actually you do. Just the way the top floor leans over the bottom floor without falling would require quite advanced math and measurement. The way it's designed with the crossed wood would require advanced math. If what your saying is true why do we have architects build things today?

>stupid
>"dark ages"

the reason why it's called the Dark Ages is because people seem to think they know history when they've never read a book about early middle age history, the lack of material that can be found from this period is less than can be found later, this is because of the destruction of grand civilisation before that, this happened also around the time of 1300BC when the Sea People raided multiple civilisation causing their demise and civil order, this gave a new rise to kingdoms which had to be done by scratch, the great thing about the so called Dark Ages is that it was more advance than it's previous predecessors, though this process was slow, but due to the preservation manuscripts by the priests in their chapels it was able to recollected and examine which lead back to a technological boom.

>>1808460
>Tradesmen typically don't rely on formal education or written knowledge.
>he skills are taught on the job, and passed from father to son.
>Hence, basic masonry and carpentry skills wouldn't suffer from a decline in social complexity the way aqueducts and pyramids would.
Could a small tradesmen being thought by his dad be enough for someone to design a house? I understand building it but designing?

>>1808474
>he thinks architects build individual houses

That isn't even true today. Engineers write the building codes, it's contractors who design and build.

People in the Early Middle Ages didn't have building codes, but they did have empirical knowledge passed down over the generations that did the same thing, albeit not as efficient.

>>1808468
Then how come when I bought my house they said it was built by three engineers and then approved by the National Architect something Association? I don't know exactly but it required a shit ton of paper work and boosted the price of my house 100K

>>1808471
But even tribes didn't build houses, they live in tiny huts. I mean building something like pic related which looks like it would require a degree in something

>>1808474
Because we don't build 2 story houses, we buy them. Architects design skyscrapers. You need an architect for a skyscraper. You don't for a barn.

And no, you can learn things outside of an institution. If you couldn't modern civilization would've never come about because no one would've learned how to farm or make metal.

>>1808476
You clearly never read a history book. My professor even said at the beginning of the year "we will be going over the dark ages, if I had to sum it up I'd say everybody dumb and everybody eat mud because theres no food".

But even if that was true that people back then weren't dumb, the farmers would still be dumb considering without cars they couldn't be driven into the city to be educated at a University.

>>1808482
Keep in mind that even in Greece and Rome, nobody understood structural engineering in a scientific sense of the word.

What you had was "that worked last time, let's do that again" with cautious, incremental changes.

Things like calculating buckling strength for columns and load paths in beams where only fleshed out during the 17th and 18th centuries.

So the art of building a house would consist of making sure everything is level (requires a weight at the end of a string) and then overengineering all of the structural elements because you have no way of knowing how much is enough.

>>1808482
You're not designing an art museum in the modern style. It's a goddamn box dude. Stronger material on bottom, lighter stuff up top. Have a roof be slanted so that it doesn't cave in from the weight of heavy snows.

>>1808487
>That isn't even true today. Engineers write the building codes, it's contractors who design and build.
So basically you'd just need one architect/engineer to do the work for every house on earth considering they are all the same?

>>1808490

See >>1808487

>>1808492
>Because we don't build 2 story houses, we buy them
We buy them from someone who had them built, that required an architect

> Architects design skyscrapers. You need an architect for a skyscraper. You don't for a barn.
But for the house in pic related you do

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>>1808496
>One must be educated at a university to be smart

>>1808513
Well, you have a book of codes that's drawn up by a committee of engineers, that tells you exactly how big everything needs to be, and how strong things have to be to not collapse, and so on.

Obviously, there are different codes for wood buildings, and brick, and steel.

But yeah, for a two story, single family dwelling, there's no need to bring in anyone with a degree. That's something that you learn on the job, even today.

The individual contractor just applies the values given to him by the building code.

Medieval craftsman wouldn't have that scientific understanding that the code provides, but they would have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge, and they'd be taught that knowledge by working for their parents or as an apprentice.

>>1808499
>What you had was "that worked last time, let's do that again" with cautious, incremental changes.
How did they design those crazy court buildings with massive pillars which were perfectly circular then?

>Things like calculating buckling strength for columns and load paths in beams where only fleshed out during the 17th and 18th centuries.
Then again how did they build those crazy buildings, they were never done before. Greece and Rome invented them

>>1808505
The house in pic related clearly had design to it. See the way the wood logs bend towards eachother. Someone had to have planned that with at least a college education because I finished highschool (making me smarter than a peasant from that era) and I have no idea how to do that.

>>1808490
>Then how come when I bought my house they said it was built by three engineers and then approved by the National Architect something Association? I don't know exactly but it required a shit ton of paper work and boosted the price of my house 100K
Just because some houses are built by architects doesn't mean it's literally impossible to build a house without training. Where I live there are tonnes of people who build their own houses that are much more difficult than your pic. It's not that hard.

>>1808490
>But even tribes didn't build houses
Yes they did, and they still do.

>>1808525
They can be smart sure but they wouldn't have the knowledge to design a house. You'd need to know angles and math for that.

>>1808533
Thanks, that pretty much answers my question.

>>1808549
>yes they did and they still do
Show me. All I've seen from tribes are huts.

>>1808540
Well, the Greeks actually developed codes for how to build a temple properly. Like, everything was supposed to be built according to a set ratio, the height of the column needed to be x times the diameter of the column, and the columns needed to be x times that.

Of course, since they had no idea how to calculate buckling strength for a column, or the tensile strength of a beam, they used much thicker and more numerous columns than were actually needed to hold up the building.

Most designs built before the modern era are much stronger than they needed to be, because nobody knew precisely how much was enough.

Modern "okay, the modulus of elasticity is this, the compression strength is this, the weight is that" engineering was only implemented in like the Renaissance at the absolute earliest.

The Greeks and Romans had a vague idea of how things worked, in a qualitative sense, but they had no quantitative, scientific tools for designing things.

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>>1808553
You're also going to have to specify what you mean by Tribes. It could be anything from Sentinelese to the Franks.

>>1808436
M8, most houses were built by men who built houses for a living and learned to build houses for a living from men who had been building houses for a living for their entire lives and who in turn learned from other men who built houses for all their lives. Despite the ebin meems of modernity, neither trade skills nor specialized knowledge require a higher education (or even fucking literacy, in many cases) and apprenticeships are often extremely effective at perpetuating the aforementioned.

Not to mention that thatched stone houses were thousands of years old in Europe at this point.

>>1808521
Less than 5% of houses built in america this year were designed by an architect.

Architects are expensive, and houses aren't very complicated.

Source, my architect wife.

>>1808492
actually in america atleast you're required by law to have an architect design any additions to a building, even something as simple as building a porch

>>1809221
[Citation needed]

My parents added a porch without consulting anyone.

>>1809242
that was illegal, they will be fined when they try to sell the house

>>1808496
>expecting 4chan users to consider your college professor a viable source

>>1809288
"It was there when i moved in"
checkmate

>>1808550
People constructed gothic cathedrals without much in the way of advanced mathematics. A lot of experimentation and art can cover for a lack of higher education, especially when it comes to a practical craft.

>>1808490
>But even tribes didn't build houses, they live in tiny huts.

no, they built houses, including lake dwellings, even in the neolithic. Bronze/Iron age people built long houses and long halls, possibly in the neolithic too. People didn't need degrees because they passed on their knowledge as a community maybe with a few specialists.

>>1808540
>I finished highschool (making me smarter than a peasant from that era)
Welp, too blatant. You need to hide your trolling better.

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>>1808398

>educated burgher

That's a paradox m8

>>1808450

>Nietzsche philosophy of "the weak should fear the strong" is very ironic considering he got his ass kicked as a kid because he had autism (they didn't call it that at the time but he was very socially inept)

Don't you ever, ever post about authors/philosophers on this board again until you've actually READ THEIR WORK.

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>>1808553
>Tribes can't build complex buildings

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>>1810407

>be the son of a guy who build houses for a living
>dad teaches me everything and I work with him until he retires/dies
>i continue to go around and build houses for people
>some nerd makes fun of me for not going to oxford

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>>1810423

>>1808487
>>he thinks architects build individual houses

>everyone lives in the US, cardboard house-style

Every house, every extension of a house here in my pooreupean country requires involvement of an architect. It's required by the building codes. You plan a house, you add a balkony, you built a garage or barn - you need plans worked out by a registered architect.

Maybe this is why US houses are so fucking flimsy?

>>1810444
OP seems to believe that it is impossible to learn anything from someone that doesn't have a degree

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>>1808392
That looks like something from the High Middle Ages or Renaissance. People in the 'dark ages' (c. 400-800, maybe up to 1000 AD) rarely lived in stone houses.

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>>1808553
These were built by actual hunter-gatherers.

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>>1810504

File: Haida, Skidegate village. Chief Gold's Moon House.jpg (190KB, 927x526px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1810507

File: Tlingit, Klukwan, Whale House 2.jpg (474KB, 1280x1006px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1810511

>>1808392
> I never build shit, have no manual skill and never had to get my hands dirty in my life
> I have no clue how to build stuff. Thats why there are architects
> universities makes architects
> therefore universities are required to build stuff
> there were primal universities sended by god before humanity was a thing, thats why we build stuff now

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>>1810513
From Nias Island, off the coast of Sumatra.

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>>1810516

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>>1810521

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>>1810522

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>>1810523
A Toraja house in Sulawesi

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>>1810450
>>1810423
>>1810407

>>1810516
>>1810521
>>1810522
>>1810523
>>1810529

neat

Masons, carpenters and thatchers were common professions and a part of everyday life. Someone might buy materials, hire someone to erect and join beams and other difficult tasks then they and their family would do the rest.

>>1809665
did a 6 week carpentry course. Have now built a little wooden shack strong enough to withstand storms.

That's 6 weeks in a decent-ish school. Very little theory, mostly just practice and some basic guidelines. medieval tradesmen who have litterally 100 generations of experience behind them would probably be able to shit out shacks like this.

>>1808392
>education only existed in big cities, small farming villages didn't have a good transportation system so people living in the outskirts could not be educated in city schools

So that's why you hired a craftsman from the city/village. And if not, they had knowledgable people in those farming village, very well trained within their own niche. Craftsmen usually did not get their knowledge from books, but it was done through a master and his apprentice.

Also mostly the whole village usually helped to build those. But it was expensive as fuck, so usually those houses remained in family posession as long as possible.

>>1808392
define "dark ages"

>>1808412

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P73REgj-3UE

>>1810423
Ancient sardinians were closer to the mycenean kingdom than tribalism tho.

>>1808392
You don't need to be able to read to communicate verbally or follow/give instructions you know
People weren't idiots, the perception that they were is largely due to Early modern Europe and Victorian era Europe being full of cunts calling themselves historians who actually talked shit.

>>1808436
It only looks thought out if you had never seen it done before.

>>1808392
Trial and error and imitation.

Outside of cities, where skilled masons/carpenters could work on projects, it would mainly just fall to the community to work together on buildings. If specialty work was ndeded, it would probably be financed by the Church or the local lord, who would be able to hire the skilled craftsmen to plan and lead the process of building the structure.
But, because regular people would rarely need to build anything more than a one story structure for peasantry, they would be fine with wooden vertical beams, horizontal beam upports, and, triangle supports for any kind of bracing for roofs.

>>1810674
why is he doing it shirtless though?