If God created the universe, who created God?

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Tengri

>>1807601
God created God.

>>1807601
What does christianity say?

Okay, they are not equivalent, the universe we know had a beginning, while god did not, so it works out that he has always existed.

You can also look to >>1807617. God's existence is ensured by a closed timeloop. He exists because he exists.

>>1807637
but why?

If I had to justify my favorite omnipotent deity I'd just say he exists outside time - he isn't constrained by such a thing the way we are. We're already talking about an all powerful being, it's a little silly to go "but that's against the rules!"

>>1807650
>it's a little silly to go "but that's against the rules!
Especially because you end up in an infinite regression if you go by 'the rules', with everything being created by something preceding which is logically impossible. Also, if God is created by something else then by the Christian definition of God, that creator would be God and the creator of the universe merely some kind of divine middleman or something.

>>1807637
That God is an eternal spirit being.

Why do godless people think "Who created God?" is a valid question?

>>1807617
God is not a created being. He is an eternal being.

This is Kindergarten stuff.

>>1807649
You don't ask why closed timeloops exist. They just make sense.

Read Homestuck, it deals heavily with timeloops. If it doesn't make sense to you after that, there's no hope for you. There are also some elements which mimic parts of how God works. The main characters early in the story are watched over by some outside entities that have access to any point of their lives at any time, and are able to interact with them. This is some sort of picture of God being outside time, simplified into terms we can understand. He is able to observe any part of our lives, and interact with us knowing what will happen in the future. It's not perfect, though, because they are still more limited than God, but can help understand.
A lot of the things that happen are results of closed timeloops. The big enemy is a result of a closed timeloop, where he exists because he does.
If there rules are too limited to represent God, there's also one characters that gets the ability to act outside the rules of the story.

Just read Homestuck, and everything will be explained to you. Then think a bit more, and you'll see how it makes sense.

>>1807601

Why make up God to explain who created the universe?
Why not just assume that universe has existed since forever like you morons assume that God has existed since forever?
Why take that extra redundant step in making up God when universe can be just as eternal as God is?
Theists truly are the most illogical people around here.

God 'is' the Universe

>>1807758

Pantheism is heresy.
Kys.

>>1807767
heretic

>>1807741
I'll take "What is entropy?" for $1,000 Alex

>>1807758
God "made" the Universe

God didnt need a creation because causality and time didnt exist before the beginning of the universe

>>1807601
God is timeless, He invented time. There was nothing prior to, or before, God.

>>1807741
>Why not just assume that universe has existed since forever
Because that makes no sense, both logically (infinite regress) and factually (ever since Lemaître we know that the universe began to exist and roughly when it started). It is far from a redundant step to include a creator for a historically finite universe.

>>1807796

When did the beginning of the universe occur if time didnt exist before it?
Dumbass.

>>1807601
>>1807791
The Universe made "God".

>>1807789

Just no.
Fallacy of composition.
Just because it applies to smaller systems does not mean it applies to the whole universe.

>>1807812
>When did the beginning of the universe occur if time didnt exist before it?
>Implying there is a "when" literally outside of the scope of time
Bruh. By neccessity whatever precedes the big bang (the creation of time and space) is not subject to time or space. Otherwise we get a self-creating universe, which is subject to time and space but created itself before time and space were a thing.

>>1807833

>By neccessity whatever precedes the big bang (the creation of time and space) is not subject to time or space.
How can precedence exist if there is no time according to you?
Precede mean coming before and for it to come before there has to exist time for it.
Bruh.

I did.

>>1807955
Yikes I wouldn't even say that.
Nothing is higher than God.
He has humbled me very much over the last few days.

>>1807601
godgod
>godman.jpg

>mfw when these faggots don't know that god was created by supergod.

>>1807601
If Jews created God, then who created the Jews?

>>1807815

Your idiotic post made you.

>>1807828
Of course it does. Look up "heat death" and suck it.

>>1807968
He's not putting you down. You're just becoming more aware of the gulf between you and him.

Don't sweat it. He loves you.

>>1807828

The 1940's called; they want their steady state universe theory back.

>>1808019
underrated

>>1807863
Creation happened instantaneously and simultaneously with the first moment of time. You don't need a prior moment to creation.

So in the theistic case: there was no time in which God existed before creation, because time came with creation. God is temporally simultaneous but ontologically prior to creation.

>>1808188
Yup. Bible says it best, as usual.

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth....

Matter. Energy. Space. Time. These are the things that the universe is made of, all recorded in Genesis 1.

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>>1807601
If nothing created the universe, who created nothing?

I'm waiting atheists....

>>1808244
Realtalk

>well your theory can't explain what happened before 14.7 billion years ago
>that makes your theory inferior to my theory which said that the age of the earth was 6,000 years

I understand that you're being sarcastic, but this is the dumbest shit.

>>1808254
I never said the age of the earth was 6000 years

I'm a deist

>>1808257
You don't need to be an atheist to believe in big bang theory.

But it's dumb to say

>well, all of the previous phenomena that people attributed to divine intervention turned out to be natural
>but there's this new unexplained phenomena
>must be divine intervention

>>1807601
>who created God?
We did.

>>1808263
the claim "the universe has no creator" is just as likely as "the universe has a creator"

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>>1808244

Nothing is subjective... WOO HOO HOO

Now show me pr00f of Santa Claus

>>1808349
Well, there's precedent.

>lightning happens
>it obeys none of the laws of nature humans instinctively understand
>materialists say "that's some kind of natural phenomena that we don't understand"
>deists say "that's Zeus, you dumb faggot"

And so on.

It would seem that god doesn't like interacting directly with the observable universe.

Which makes sense, because why would he bother with that when he can send souls to heaven and hell.

A purely materialistic worldview isn't mutually exclusive with religion.

>>1807609
Dyeus

>>1807650
>If I had to justify my favorite omnipotent deity
Everyone does the same with logic everyday so whats the difference?
At least God is coo, logic is gay, logic cant even prove itself, God came to man.
Logic just fucks itself up over and over and then pretends it doesn't happen.
t. Kant Munchhausen

>>1808365
you fundamentally misunderstand deism

>>1808399
I'm not even talking about deism.

I'm talking about the idea that unexplained events in the mortal world are the result of the supernatural and not unknown natural processes.

>>1808413
>I'm not even talking about deism.
>deists say "that's Zeus, you dumb faggot"

>I'm talking about the idea that unexplained events in the mortal world are the result of the supernatural and not unknown natural processes.
Then why are you responding to me? I have never argued this.

You don't seem intelligent.

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>>1807970

>>1807601

>thinks God is finite

It was always believed that God is eternal

>>1807712
Don't read that autistic shit

>>1808037
He has a point though only concious beings can acknowledge the idea of god so in a sense the Universe did create god

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>>1808435
Oh fuck, there are more of these?

>>1807601
Can't you guys grasp this simple notion that

GOD IS THE FUCKING UNMOVED MOVER, THEREFORE, HE IS ETERNAL, OMNIPRESENT AND MASTER OF ALL THINGS.

if he's not, you can't call him God, because he was created by something else, and that something else would be God.

>>1807712
>read homestuck to understand god

>>1807833
The big bang did not create time and space. The big bang describes a period where all observable stuff was compressed to some super dense point. When this stuff came from is not addressed by the big bang theory.

>>1808199
nice meme

>>1808365
But "laws of nature" don't exist anyways. "laws of nature" are just generalizations that we abstract from real phenomena according to the elements of them which can be abstracted in a quantifiable way. The real phenomena is the ontological ground of the "laws", not the other way around.

Any physical generality needs an explanation, and "laws of nature" don't cut it. If the regularities had any sort of logical necessity to them then they would not need an explanation, but they are contingent, so we need something that can act contingently in order to properly explain them.

The best way to explain the natural contingent generalities is with a God who acts with the contingency of his will to determine and sustain the regularities. We need something that can act contingently, rather than necessarily, so the produce and sustain them at the very least. Something not included in their set that has a will.

>>1807601
I'm so sick of you fucking atheist retards asking this stupid fucking question. Pick up a book once in a while its obvious that super-god created god you illiterate faggot. I'm warning you now... you better repent or super judgement day is going to make judgement day look like a cakewalk!

>>1809053
But who created super-god?

>>1809065
Mega-god you fucking pleb

>>1809074
When does omni-ultra-platinum-god come into this?

>>1807677
Because it is.
If things need a creator why would god not need one?

The only answer you have is special pleading.
That will never do.

>>1808814
What if the universe was infinitely small at that point? That would satisfy an infinite universe and allow expansion to come from the Big Bag

>>1809088
wow. Just wow. Hes way down the line. First you need to get quads to stop giga-niga-god from flooding the earth.

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>>1807601
"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am" - Exodus 3:14

God is the very act of existing. He is Being. He is necessary.

The universe is not necessary, it does not explain the reason for its existence. No natural cause could answer this question, because nature is just that which exists, and therefore needs explanation.

So to solve this problem, there must be something that caused the universe but does not need a cause itself to exist. The only thing that fits this description that I know of, is a being that is the very act of existing, God.

>>1809142
This is the worst logic Ive ever seen. You could apply this bullshit to any god that anyone has ever claimed to have worshiped.

>>1809177
You can apply it to a lot of Gods. You can apply it to the neoplatonic God, the supreme God in Hinduism, the God of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

You can't really apply it to all gods though. Gods like Thor or Aphrodite or arguably the God of Mormonism don't really fit this description. These gods are finite, and have limited power. They seem to have bodies too which keeps them from being infinite.

This description of God can only be applied to Gods which are infinite/all powerful/all knowing, and it only leaves room for one all powerful God to exist. If this God exists, then there can't be any other God that fits this description.

>>1809207
Based on this logic you could only be a theist believing in an impersonal god unrelated to worldly affairs. To claim a personal god in the christian vain you would need to prove that this was in fact the god of the new testament and not the old testament, Koran, or Hindu tradition

>>1807617
If God created God, then who created God?

>>1809226
I'm not sure where the problem is.

This definition of God fits the different Gods in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism. And these Gods are all personal Gods.

All of these Gods fit the definition, but this doesn't have anything to do with which religion is right.

>>1807677
What does 'spirit' mean in this context? Soul? Ghost? Breath? Also, that would imply God doesn't have a corporeal form - weren't we made in his image? I want to understand but I won't pretend I don't have questions.

>>1809142
>>>1807601 (OP)
>So to solve this problem, there must be something that caused the universe but does not need a cause itself to exist.

why?

>>1809301
In his image means we were made conscious, free, creative beings like him.

Any explanation of all things runs into three possible outcomes.

Brute fact explains everything. Something that explains it itself explains everything. Ad infinitum causes and effects.

God explains himself by being the simplest postulate ie an infinity of goodness, power, will etc. A nothingness would also be simple but since there is something, infinity is simpler. A necessary being, that with his will caused and created all things. Of course personal godness that is found in Abrahamic or other religions cannot be logically demonstrated.

We know so far that all things are contingent except for certain laws of physics. Why are the laws of physics the way they are? Also could logic be created or determined by God? Isn't God determined by logic?

I think radical Islamic mysticism is the only response.

>>1809306
Because if there is no uncaused cause, then there must be a infinite regress, which is a logical absurdity.

>>1809307
What about the mentally handicapped and invalids?

>>1807650
If god lives outside the rules, why is there suffering?

>inb4 Job

>>1807712
>first time i heard of homestuck it was from a weeb tumblrina
>then i heard people cosplay it so assumed it was an anime
>worse then that, it's a shit webcomic with a shit fanbase
Get off my board. Now, before i call Germans, Slavs and Turks.

>>1807601

God^god, aka God Squared. He's the deity God worships.

>>1807601

People like you when they started asking such questions. I must thank you for it.