Progression of the Republic

>hey guys here's my half baked clichéd idea can you please flesh it out for me?

>>1804748
heaven forbid we have an interesting discussion on /his/

>>1804760
Why don't you go more in depth into why the us will become a dictatorial empire and how it's connected to Rome, then.

>>1804789
The Idea of a system of checks and balances comes from the Roman republics idea of different groups within the republic having veto powers. The senate itself is an obvious and direct connection. After the failure of the Articles of Confederation the founding fathers looked for a democratic esc. system that was proven to have worked rather well and lasted for a long amount of time. The best example of that is the Roman Republic, which the founding fathers where very aware of. Being that the U.S is derived from the idea of the Roman Republic I was just wondering if a dictatorship of a republic is just the natural progression of republics or not. Thats my question. Lets look at the idea of manifest destiny. Basically the U.S was united in expansion across north america, settling new lands and fighting barbarians, just like the Roman Republic many years earlier. In the Roman republic if you joined the army and fought for long enough your pention would give you a plot of land and a nice sum of money. The Republic made a slow advance over the years, and slowly displaced or assimilated the barbarian cultures. The same could be said about the U.S. Although not exactly the same, the motivation to keep pushing forward, for ones personal gain, ones land that they "conquer" or tame for themselves seems to be an interesting parallel to those who fought in the Roman Republic.

You're right, anon, and I've had the same theory for years.

I just hope it happens sooner rather than later.

>>1804829
>I was just wondering if a dictatorship of a republic is just the natural progression of republics or not. Thats my question.
It is a natural progression in the sense that there are more people now who want the ability to enact change NOW and QUICKLY rather than wanting to keep the government out of societal affairs as much as possible and therefore would want checks/balances and slow moving government.
Lots of people with lots of free time on their hands who find meaning in their lives through political activism of any kind rather than building something concrete.
It is natural for these people to resort to systems which are more capable of producing rapid change when faced with repeated frustration at the hands of the old and slow system.
The fastest change you can get is a dictator type figure and the only way such a figure would get elected is if at first the dictators are benevolent and leverage the voting system in their favor, at first.

I would argue this is one of the reasons democracies need to look for governments they can attack for not being democratic. It creates a situation where not enough people are focused on the societal problems within a given democracy (and the feelings of powerlessness that one shitty vote give you). Therefore, not enough frustrated people are looking inwards to a point where the pendulum swings into a dictatorship, i.e. democracies prevent their degradation by using an exterior dictatorship to prevent their own societies from swinging into a dictatorship. If all dictatorships were to become democracies then all the attention of all the moralizing crusaders would join the SJWs in lambasting government for this or that.
At that point all those moralizing crusaders and SJWs would have to answer the question: do they give up when voting and protesting doesn't work or do they resort to other means in the name of their morality?

>>1804738
>>1806081
Well, it's already here now in everything but name. Sure we have a lot of self-governing subjects outside of the main empire, but our military is still there occupying them, so we're the ones in charge.

>>1804829
I would not consider it a natural progression, more like a potential pitfall. The high levels of inequality that the Rome Republic had before changing to the Empire and America is suffering now was also experienced in the Glided Age and pre-Depression era for America, but they bounced back then.

>>1806515
The same criticism can be easily be applied to non-democracies too whereby leaders use other country to distract the populace from their own internal problems

>>1804738
The difference is that our military follows a wildly different structure to that of Rome.

Our generals are basically just middle-class bureaucrats instead of being from the aristocratic class like they were in Rome, so you're less likely to get a Caesar-type character who holds military power and has enough money to keep his army going for a short time without state support.

We get people like Trump who have the money to topple a government but lack an army, and we have pissed off generals like Petraeus with portions of the military loyal to them, but lack the money to pull off a coup.

>>1804738
You're an idiot. America will never become an empire in the Roman sense. America has no true culture, and its citizens are fucking retarded. I guess this is another Ameritard circlejerk thread.
America will always be a colony, stuck in the political era of the 18th century. The American people would automatically reject any notion of Empire, for Americans are concerned only with safety and security. Any potential Imperium will exist only in Europe, the home of Western civilization. America will balkanize in the next 20 years, and will have a major economic crisis very soon. Death to America.

>>1807407
t. muhammad

>>1807407
>Most European states are cucked and have the American military operating inside of them through NATO
>America also maintains a vast set of bases across the pacific, Africa, and the middle east to extend its hegemony
>Americans accept empire in the belief they are extending security and freedom
>America creates entertainment, fashion, and food that is consumed globally, even in countries that style themselves as enemies and rivals of America.

Whatever you say

File: wesley clark on ethnic states.jpg (98KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 850x400px

>>1807464
Most European states are cucked BECAUSE of NATO and American organizations that promote cultural marxism, pro-jewish, pro-islam and LGBBQ ideologies that your universities keep pumping out. Do you honestly believe that European countries would be less accepting of shitskin muslims if only BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA had more influence
>Americans accept empire in the belief they are extending security and freedom
Well they're wrong, they're just spreading barbarism.
>America creates entertainment, fashion, and food that is consumed globally
And it's all trash All America does is pump out Hollywood schlock, junk food, new gender pronouns, and economic slavery, and if anyone tries to break rank and build something better, the US goes in, smashes it, smears their shit all over it, and hands it over to Al-Qaeda.

America is the #1 world source of niggerdom, cuckoldry and anti-civilization.

>>1807407
lel the Greek city states and oriental kingdoms of the Hellenistic age probably thought something similar
You are already client states. Soon we will push for outright annexation

>>1807517
Everything you say is the American Empire. It's not a good thing, no empire really is.

Also yeah no shit Americans believe wrong, they're regularly lied to by their media that sucks the government's cock.

>>1807588
>implying the US public would be willing to shoulder this burden
>implying outright annexation wouldn't lead to germany flooding your market because taxes there would go down and ressources would become cheaper
>implying the US would be able to financially survive this

keep dreaming burger


>>1804738
The problem that i see is that the transition from republic to empire marked the beginning of stagnation and downfall. Given the more democratic and egalitarian character of the USA i think a retreat from the imperial stage is more likely. American isolationism and a focus on domestic issues combined with simply deserting international commitments is more likely given the character and the politics of the US.

>>1804738
>The United State government is directly based off of the Roman Republic
The US government is and has never been anything like the Roman Republic.

File: jhr-17-2-stimely1-l.jpg (2MB, 1352x2058px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1352x2058px

>>1804738
i would love to contribute to this discussion, but I cant right now

I'll just recommend you read Spengler OP

>>1807715
This.

>>1807679
>implying the US public would be willing to shoulder this burden
>implying outright annexation wouldn't lead to germany flooding your market because taxes there would go down and ressources would become cheaper
>implying the US would be able to financially survive this

with the right kind of media spin, you can make americans (and europeans) support anything.

>>1807734
Ehhh. The financial realities would quickly crush every attempt of Spin doctors creating a warped picture. Especially in todays political climate.>>1807734

an interesting article about the erosion of the constitutional system of the US
it has a bit of a conservative rant, but the fundamental issue remains:
http://www.claremont.org/crb/basicpage/after-the-republic/

also a video related to this that I saw in another thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2B_HgyKNU
>what would you want him to do?
>I would want him to go to the people of the US and say how their congress is bought and is incapable of making any sort of legislation
>but I'm president of the United states! and I dont want a country that is ruled by a bought congress so I'm going to abandon this congress...

relate this with the current presidential elections, with the support for Bernie, Trump...

File: marcus_aurelius_4.jpg (202KB, 1344x1344px) Image search: [Google]

202KB, 1344x1344px

>>1807362
underrated post.

It's important to remember the investor's maxim that past performance is no guarantee of future results, and just because the Roman Republic decayed into a military dictatorship doesn't mean that the United States is doomed to follow its fate.

All of the founding fathers were well versed in the Classics, it was considered an indispensable part of a college education, and most of them probably knew Roman history better than anyone who posts in this thread. They understood the danger of a military that rampages out of control and were very careful to make all military officers subordinate to elected civilians.

They were no strangers to more recent history, either, and saw the role that soldiers of fortune played in the destruction of the Italian democratic city-states, so they were careful to make militias well regulated and state sanctioned.

While it could be argued that America is reaching its oligarchic "late republic" phase, what's more important to note is that we already had that in the late 19th century and actually reversed the trend, and maintained a strong middle class in defiance of this historical "inevitability" for quite some time, surprising both Marxists and Spenglerian alike. It's a balancing act that our more stable societies can maintain longer than simpler, less stable ones.

>>1808464
I agree that the trend was reversed, however my question is that is it eventually doomed to happen again and again until someone doesnt reverse it. I would say at least during this time it appears the the US is starting to descend once more. I agree on the balancing act, again my question is will it all inevitably fail and lead to a American empire

>>1807362
Im more worried the heads of our intelligence agencies than our literal generals.

>>1807715
anything in particular? I keep turning up the "Decline of the West" was this what you where trying to direct me towards?

>>1808831
>will it all inevitably fail and lead to a American empire
this seems unlikely to me, if people are dissatisfied with their political leadership in America they just wait a few years and vote them out instead of rising up or having a military coup. Though I must say all the comments from Trump supporters saying if Hillary wins it'll only be because of widespread voter fraud (for which there is no evidence) is very disconcerting.

>>1809076
Not that guy, but Spengler basically pushed the idea that empire is the final stage of civilizational decay. After it comes death.

>>1807362
Yeah, the last time the American army could have been said to have a military force akin to any Roman legion, they were climbing San Juan Hill. A private regiment under overall command of a regular army officer. (Roosevelt was only a colonel, remember.)

I firmly believe that Teddy Roosevelt -could- have been a Caesar, but he was too decent a man to exploit a crisis to that extreme. Besides, his own party hated him too much to ever get that far.