Normans and "English" identity

>>1802191
>Realistically, any movie or TV show set in-between 1066 (Hastings) and 1453 (HYW ending) would have the nobility, knights, and the monarchs of England speaking the Anglo-Norman dialect.

There was no "Anglo-Norman" dialect
It's a term used by butthurt Brits to deny their French heritage
Norman kings (1066-1154) spoke Norman French (regular Old French with some differences of spelling in a few words, akin to the difference between British English and American English) and the Angevin kings (1154-1485) spoke regular Old French, until Edward III who learnt, some English in his life and had his son Jean de Gand (John Gaunt) have English as native language

>>1802220
The vast majority of nobles in England were of Norman ancestry and the language of the court was Anglo-Norman which was pretty much the Norman language with some minor differences. That's the point I was getting across. I wasn't denying that Anglo-Norman wasn't a Langues d'oïl.

Also, Henry I was actually the first post-1066 monarch that could speak the language of the common people. He was actually born in England but even he viewed the Anglo-Saxon people with contempt. His son William Adelin was even worse who boasted that he would draw them to the plough like oxen. And William Adelin was of partial English descent from his mother to boot. Adelin could trace his matrilineal ancestry to Alfred the Great.

>>1802191
>Does it bother you guys that the descendants of those invaders still own more than 2/3 of English property?

Yes.

>And the fact that they benefit from their family holdings and connections for the best schools, economic advancement, etc.?

That too, yes.

>>1802220
>>1802262

The "Frensh" spoken by the Anglo-Normans was ridiculed by Parisians as being a barbarous dialect. This rejection by the French is a chief reason why British aristocrats started switching over to English.

>>1802191
>Does it bother you guys that the descendants of those invaders still own more than 2/3 of English property?
no
>Or the fact that medieval English history primarily depicts the Norman and Plantagenet eras of England instead of the Anglo-Saxon period?
no
>What surprises me the most is that the English people didn't ever think to overthrow and expel these aristocratic families.
it doesn't surprise me because proles are dumb as shit
> The final links with France were broken barring Calais (which would eventually fall too) and English commoners could throw off the alien minority that used England as a cash cow.
and here we go it's prole advocacy shit
> Englishmen were barred from positions of power
good

anglos can't rule themselves, they need romans, french or most recently germans to do it for them

>>1802315
>The "Frensh" spoken by the Anglo-Normans was ridiculed by Parisians as being a barbarous dialect

Kinda like Brits ridicule American English or like current French mock the Quebecois
Doesnt make it a different language

>>1802191
I always get a kick whenever I come across an Anglo-Saxon lord or knight set in the 12th or 13th centuries. Anglo-Saxons were peasants or at best, merchants in post-1066 England. Only 2 noble families can claim patriarchal descent from Anglo-Saxons today; the Berkeleys and the Ardens via Thurkill of Warwick. This is why Robin Hood and Ivanhoe are wishful thinking.

>>1802262
I've always pondered what would've happened if the White Ship had made it to England safely and William became the next king?

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Unfortunately, most people nowadays think the history of England began in 1066. The actual founder of the country is completely ignored.

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>>1803288
top lad to be honest

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It's also interesting how Norman propaganda managed to make the quintessential British hero someone who fought against the English, King Arthur, instead of someone like Alfred the Great.

>>1803288
That's Norman propaganda for ya. Gotta keep the English churls down and remind them of their place instead of remembering that they were their own masters.

Athelstan is criminally overlooked. He managed to one-up his legendary grandfather Alfred by actually conquering the Danelaw and incorporating all of the Anglo-Saxon lands under one king.

In fact, it's disappointing that Northumbria and Mercia aren't well-known. The Northumbrian Golden Age produce exquisite Irish-influenced manuscripts while the Mercians had a great run as the preeminent English polity.

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>>1803307
he let cakes burn though.

>>1803307
You gotta thank Geoffrey of Monmouth for that. I do recognize that the Romano-Britons had a leader who inspired the legend of Arthur and thwarted the Saxons (temporarily) but you're absolutely right. It's always Arthur (whose not even a real guy) and never Alfred.

Hell, Canute the Great deserves greater recognition despite being a Viking conqueror. He proved himself to be a worthy king to the Anglo-Saxons unlike William the Bastard.

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>>1803310
God bless the Holy Island.

>>1803313
Dude was deep in thought. He couldn't bother with minding the cakes.

Alfred's whole life is larger-than-life. There's only 1 film about him and while it's not bad, he deserves a blockbuster treatment. Thankfully Bernard Cornwell took an interest in this legendary king.

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>>1803310
J. R. R. Tolkien considered the work of Anglo-Saxon missionaries like Saint Boniface and Willibrord in converting Central Europe to Christianity to be one of the chief glories of England and among their chief contributions to Europe.

Which is right. If you look at a map of the spread of Christianity by the 8th century, it didn't look so different from a map of the Roman Empire. No one cared about spreading Christianity beyond the borders of the Roman world because Christianity was considered a religion of the (urbanized) Roman world that the germanic chieftains wanted to assimilate into. No one even bothered about christianizing the countryside.

It was left to the Irish and the Anglo-Saxons, perhaps because they weren't part of this Roman world and had the zeal of newly converted people, to evangelize most of Europe and begin the spread of Christianity into what is now Holland, Germany and Scandinavia.

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>>1803329
He deserves better it is true.

>>1803323
I actually want to visit Lindisfarne as well as Iona if I got half the chance.

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>>1803310
I believe the Northumbria's Golden Age is also overlooked because the Vikings destroyed much of what they produced.

And of course, now Vikings are idolized while the monks who laboured for what they destroyed are ignored, pic related.

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>>1803344
>>1803344
Strong digits for a strong post.

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>>1803349
Same t.b.h.

>>1803344
Exactly. Anglo-Saxon monks were the ones who spearheaded conversion amongst the Germanic peoples of the continent. They understood the pagan Germanics better than anyone else since they used to be like them and could properly transmit Christianity to those tribes. Charlemagne's tutor Alcuin of York even admonished forced conversions at swordpoint like the Massacre of Verden.

>"Faith is a free act of the will, not a forced act. We must appeal to the conscience, not compel it by violence. You can force people to be baptised, but you cannot force them to believe."

>>1803348
Meanwhile there's umpteenth million stories, movies, and TV shows about Arthur. It really sickens me that they don't even depict an actual Brythonic leader like Rhys ap Gruffydd; who actually defeated Henry II and successfully resisted Angevin encroachment.

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>>1803373

>>1803313
Alfred survived a surprise attack by the Danes, managed to escape into a swamp where he spent the entire winter isolated only to emerge in the spring with an army out of nowhere to defeat the Danes in a decisive battle that saved the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms (England didn't even exist yet) and Christianity in the British Isles from total conquest.

But the only thing people remember is a medieval legend (aka Norman propaganda) about burnt cakes).

>>1803329
I hope Bernard Cornwell lives to write about the Battle of Brunanburh (though it will be silly to see Uhtred with 80 years still fighting, I guess he will just substitute him for his son by then).

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while we're on the subject lads, how do we feel about robin hood as an english symbol?

>>1803356
I know, but out of all the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, they fascinate me the most. The fact that the Angles once covered much of Lowland Scotland up to Lothian amazes me.

People forget that before the Normans, the English and the Irish were on friendly terms. The Irish were the ones who converted the Angles to Christianity, thus Northumbria emulating Celtic practices as well as learning from Irish monks. Northumbrian kings even married Irish princesses. The sons of Harold Godwinson found refuge in Ireland thanks to good relations with King Diarmait of Leinster. Thank Richard de Clare for fucking up centuries of previous Irish-English relations.

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>>1803382
The burnt cakes story is not Norman propaganda you autismo. It shows that Alfred was a patient and merciful man for allowing some crone to berate him rather than pulling rank on her.

>>1803382
Yep. Alfred was living like a guerrilla in his own land and managed to rally a massive comeback. That right there is a fucking king.

There's even a story that he went in disguise to a Viking camp with his harp to spy on them. He sang as a minstrel while gaining intel for several days. That's ballsy as fuck.

>>1803383
I feel that Hereward the Wake and Eadric the Wild deserve more recognition as an English symbol of resistance. They were actual guys who lived in the forests and gave the Normans all sorts of trouble.

The story of Robin Hood is sorta depressing to me since the Saxons didn't drive out the Normans and King Richard the Lionhearted was NOT a good king at all. John was a bit of a douche, but he was actually a decent administrator all things considered. At least he was the 1st post-1066 King to actually give a damn about England since he lost most of his French possessions. He's not a good king, but certainly not the worst in English history. That honor goes to Aethelred the Unready and Willam Rufus in my opinion. John had to pick up the mess that Richard left behind.

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>>1803406
>tfw i'd never heard of hereward and eadric until now

>>1803349
I've been there, it's not great,but it might be because i'm literally an anglo-norman

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>>1803419
then you are in the wrong thread.

>>1803417
William the Bastard had to constantly fight off repeated English rebellions because of the rapaciousness of the Norman barons who raped Anglo-Saxon women without punity, plundered monasteries for their treasures, and treated the English like dirt. It's sad that resistance figures like Hereward, Eadric, and Waltheof of Northumbria are largely forgotten by modern England.

>>1803362
>>1803419
I've never been to Britain and I figure if I ever did, those 2 are definitely on my to-do list since I read about their glories.

>>1803426
I wish the Crown would adopt the Wyvern of Wessex as its Royal Standard instead of those 3 lions.

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>>1803430
Þæs ofereode,

þisses swa mæg.

>>1803442
Well if you ever go round there in Northumberland you should go to Bamburgh and Anlwick castles, they're pretty neat.

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>>1803442
>it will never happen

>>1803454
Visiting old castles is something I've always wanted to do. Chinon, the seat of Henry II's Angevin Empire is one I'd love to see as well.

>>1803453
So sad but true, but at least there seems to be greater acceptance of the Anglo-Saxon history today. I really enjoyed 1066: The Battle for Middle-Earth dramedy from a few years back. It even had Ian Holm narrating.

>>1803462
The Wyvern looks WAY better than those 3 leopards. It's a symbol that harkens back to the strife between the Brythonic peoples and the Germanic invaders.

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>>1803470
song as old as rhyme

You're speaking from a position of knowledge over 100 years after the concept of class was truly realized. For most of history, class has been regarded as moral. See the hyme "All Things Bright and Beautiful".

Much of it is because our aristocracy was tied to God. In British Christianity, the King, Queen and Lords were mandated by God. To disobey them is to disobey God. And despite you might think, people are more loyal to nation than class. The 100 Years War proved that.

>>1802191
Around 1350 the nobility were assimilated. Only Anglophobes and French claim that every Plantagenet king was a cheese eating faggot frog.

>>1802191
It even invaded the language, native Anglo words still sound peasant and plebeian as fuck while the Norman/French words sound regal. Consider:

Kingly vs Royal
Freedom vs Liberty
Ask vs Inquire
Smell vs Odour
Shirt vs Blouse
Deem vs Consider
Wild vs Savage
Tough vs Difficult
Awesome vs Incredible

And the difference is most blatant when it comes to meat, where the name of the animal (Cow, Pig, Sheep) is Anglo whereas the name of the food (Beef, Pork, Mutton) is French. It's because the Anglo plebs were just herding the animals while the Norman noblemen actually ate the meat.

>>1803671
Anglo words: Practical, down to earth
French: Pretentious, gay

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>>1803680
this.

>>1803650
Descendants of Normans are still richer than everyone else in Britain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8424904/People-with-Norman-names-wealthier-than-other-Britons.html

The Norman yoke never ended.

>>1802352
I've spoken with French people who think that Quebecois French is better than that in France.

>>1803671
And let's not forget the words for which no Germanic alternative exists and only the French version remains (war, soldier, peace, able, use, courage, honor...etc)

>>1803778
oof

>>1802315
>ridiculed by Parisians as being a barbarous

Yep, that sounds like Parisians.

>>1803727
I've traced a small part of my family tree through one grandparent and found three Norman names. They're fairly common.
Anglo-Saxons are always the ones that fascinate us most, because they gave us our very name as Englishmen, but in reality they are but a fraction of both our ethnic and cultural heritage.
People talk about the Romans, Normans and Vikings as if they are separate from us. That isn't the case.

>love the Normans
>just love the Anglo-Saxons a wee bit more

>>1803805
The thing is that French still exists and you're in a rivalry with them, which makes the fact they conquered you and changed the face of your nation and language humiliating
That's not really comparable to Romans or Vikings

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>>1802191
Britcuck here, most people just try not to think about it.
Those who actually read it up tend to be sensibly cynical about the whole thing and you do get the occasional spacktarded we wuz brythons rants but for the most part it's better just to not bring it up.
The literature and mythos about robin hood and the like is just fiction, nobody has taken that stuff as anything other than stories for a long while now.
We've moved on, most of us have foreign blood in us anyway since it comes with being an island of mongrels, I'm patrilineally Norman myself and even I find it bloody awkward we've still got the same ruling class.

Serves us right for never having a proper revolution suppose.

>>1803815
>The thing is that French still exists and you're in a rivalry with them, which makes the fact they conquered you and changed the face of your nation and language humiliating
Perhaps for those whose history knowledge is self-created fantasy.

>>1803671
You're an idiot who understands far less about linguistics than you realize. Please stop posting.

How many languages do you speak?

>>1802220
This

>>1803757
It doesn't sound better but Québécois is more conservative it's all.

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as England, is in fact, France/England, or as I've recently taken to calling it, France plus England. England is not a country unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning French system made useful by the French language, system of government and Anglo-Norman elite comprising a full country as defined by the UN.

Many /his/ posters interact with a modified version of the French nation every day, without realising it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of France which occupies British Isles and several islands is often called "England", and many of its citizens are not aware that it is basically the French nation, developed by the French Kings.

There really are English, and these people do live there, but they’re just a part of the country. English are the proletariat: the worker bees of the country that gather the resources and work in the businesses that French run. The English are an essential part of the country, but useless by themselves; they can only function in the context of the French system. English are normally used to do manual labor under French supervision: the whole country is basically French with English added, or French-England. All the so-called "French" accomplishments are really accomplishments of French/England.

>>1805188
well meme'd

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>>1805188
>tfw your meme was rendered useless by the Glorious Revolution

nice job cuckolics

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>>1803479
Why is the white dragon the Wojak and the red one the Pepe?

Shouldn't Pepe be the white dragon since the white dragon was the victor and not the red one?

Cuz Pepe's usually the one that's victorious and not Wojak.

>>1805178
>Québécois is more conservative it's all.
Yes and no, depends on the perspective. Québécois adopts neologisms all the time, whereas France's French is still stuck with direct anglo words and old interpretations of the academia. This is especially true regarding technology.