so the annual shit on Christopher Colombus

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>Literally one of the first Europeans to explore the New World
>Let's discredit his achievement because he had racist views held by every European at the time!
>Historical figures' ideas over race are starting to override scientific/cultural progress and achievements
What a time to be alive

>>1796978
Even for his time he acted lawlessly and cruel toward the natives, that's why the Spanish had to rein him in.

>>1796914
He was an explorer who began the most significant merging of worlds in history. There are many brutal conquistadors that deserve the modern title of "evil" than him.

The only reason people shit on him is because he is widely taught in public schools while others are not.

He was.

Doesn't mean we should feel bad.

>>1796983
this

But I think it had more to do with the fact that he literally lied to Queen Isabella and felt very insecure in his position. He felt he had to pump out gold as fast as possible. Almost everyone around him in Caribbean thought he was complete asshole

>>1796914
My history profesor told me that he was a religious fanatic that wanted to reach the other side of the world and convert the mongols hordes to Christianity, in order to unite forces and then erase islam of the face of the earth. I wonder how much of that is true. He also said that Columbus wrote an apocalyptic book or something like, related to millennialism.

>>1797004
How the fuck was he "genocidal?"

>>1796978

It was more his actions than his views, there are contemporary accounts that call him out for being a complete cunt.

Also

>held by every European at the time!

It's not like Europeans at the time had the same imperialistic racial attitude that they had in the 18th and 19th century. The problem was more "they're heathens" than a racial one.

>>1797051
Even the non christian vikings who came to America in the 900's talked about the Natives like they were some other creature named "Skraelings"

>>1797042

I get a little annoyed when people call the behavior of the Europeans against natives "genocide" since that isn't really what it was. It was shitty and a lot of natives got killed (and encomienda was basically slavery), but people chalk up all the deaths from disease to some intentional European endgame to wipe out natives. In reality there's like one known example of shit like smallpox blankets and that was done to try and break a siege.

The Spanish didn't WANT to wipe out the natives, they needed the laborers.

>>1797063
It's sad that people have this idea floating around their heads due to political agendas.

Some tribes in the American South West had died out from disease as much as a century before Europeans traveled to the area in bulk.

The thing that I don't understand is why Americans celebrate that day with Italian flags. It's such a nonsense. Here in Spain it's our national day

>>1797086
We don't.

Most people just saw Columbus Day as a day people got off from work/school till Natives and white college students started getting butthurt about it recently.

>>1797086
It really began as an Italian-American celebration. Columbus didn't found the English colonies that would later become the USA so non-Italian Americans really don't have much connections to him.

>>1797086
lived in America my whole life and I have literally never seen an italian flag flown for columbus day

>>1797086
what the fuck are you talking about

>>1797035
They say that the ships Christopher Columbus used to sail belonged to arab Andalusians. He didnt own the ships not was he the only map maker on it nor navigator. He wasnt even the captain.

There are reports that he discovery of America happened by a mistake. Simply the Iberians and Morroccans (the muslims and christians mentioned for discovery) had a misconception. Their misconception was that they could easily get to east india by sailing west. And this is the route they had become 'accustomed' to. And the strangest thing is that east indians and west indians share features.

Apparently other Iberians knew of this but did not form permanent settlements. There are written reports that when the English journeyed to make discoveries. There were already other Europeans there, fishing. Apparently of Northern Iberian stock. They had found great cod fishing waters in the Americas, that they salted.

>>1797301
gonna need a source on this whole post

>>1797035
Your professor sounds like a cook, but IDK.

Columbus was actually on trial for his terrible actions, our modern notions of racism have nothing to do with this, he also terrorized Spanish colonists.

>>1796978
>sold 10 year old native girls to sexual slavery
>chopped off native hands for not finding gold on an island that lacked gold
Truly a hero to look up too.

Replace Columbus Day with Moon Landing Day.

>>1797331
Search Nagaland, India.

http://flseagrant.ifas.ufl.edu/newsletter/2011/05/did-fishermen-discover-the-new-world/

>>1796983
>that's why the Spanish had to rein him in.


sure... it had nothing to do with this foreign goober stumbling upon the greatest cashcow in european history while on his autistic quest, gaining governorship of all these lands in the process due to their agreement.

>>1796978
>>Let's discredit his achievement because he had racist views held by every European at the time!

Not true, a lot of people spoke about Colombus being a colossal cunt. He wasn't even allowed to go to Hispanolia anymore after the shit he pulled.

He was a total cunt and everyone saw him as such, including Spanish Crown and the clergy that traveled with him

This meme that everyone in Europe was murderous psychopaths back then needs to die

>>1797407
It didnt, Isabella arrested him because monks on the expedition told her how Columbus fed natives to dogs and let his men rape native girls.

Then her husband Ferdinand releases him and funded more expedition because he was more pragmatic, callous and Columbus knew the route.

>>1797416
Columbus was a jackass. Apparently the spanish courts couldnt even trust him. So they kept him in closed confines for some years leading upto 1492. His job was to spy on Genoans and Genoan owned businesses just to gain trust.

>>1797418
You also have to remember that a Borja was pope in those years. And they were treated as jews. They went badly treated and the Italians would stir up controversy for whatever reason and if it meant the destroying the character of spanish men In the expedition. Then so be it. The iberians felt pride over borja. And borjas felt closely tied to their homeland.

You know what the Italians supposedly had one of the Borjas do to prove loyalty? To go back to his hometown and gather jews that could possibly be his relatives and make them kill these jews in saint peters square.

A day with Colombus

the men were captured and forced to work in mines looking for gold, rarely if ever returning home, it significantly impacted the birth rate. If a woman did give birth, she would be so overworked herself and malnourished, that she often could not produce enough milk for the baby. He even reported that some of the women “drowned their babies from sheer desperation.”

>>1797392
What was the age of consent among natives?

>>1797086
We don't.

>>1796914
I say he's a damn lucky man. Those calculations he did were so off, he'd starve to death before he got to China if the American Continents weren't there.

>>1796914

he was a explorer

he found a new continent

then shit happened

>>1797063
truefact.

Even if the Europeans had all been saints and treated the natives wonderfully, without knowledge of germ theory, the natives are still completely doomed.

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>>1797416
>>1796978
>This meme that everyone in Europe was murderous psychopaths back then needs to die
This

While there might have been a higher percentage of sociopathic acting assholes than today there were still people capable of genuine morality, independent thought, and generally seeing colonialism for the monstrous endeavor it was - even if they were living in it and benefited from the winning side.

>there were 60,000 people living on this island, including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery, and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this? I myself writing it as a knowledgeable eyewitness can hardly believe it

- Bartolomé de las Casas, (though it's hard to track down the original source of this exact wording for sure)

Bottom line: does Columbus deserve to have his own day? Is there a solid argument to changing the name?

>>1797086
columbus day is like the italian version of st. patrick's day

>>1797086
Only in NY and other cities with strong Italian presence they do that.

>>1796914
Memes aside, he was a pretty big asshole.

To be honest I think Columbus Day should be changed to something more general like "Explorers Day" or "Discovery Day". Though maybe that's too general.

Columbus Day was just a ploy to get votes from Italian-Americans anyways.

>>1796914
Get used to it OP. Post-colonialism and postmodernism is going full on revisionism.

Statues of 'Great Men' will be falling everywhere soon.

Whilst I think all the reports that he was a fucking monster are true, I think his contribution to kicking off the exploration and colonisation of the New World should be acknowledged with a day.

Though I do understand why people absolutely hate him.

Here's a neat little song about his exploits though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpASvpEi_WA

>>1800481

>finding the truth is "revisionism"

>>1800499
>In historiography, the term historical revisionism identifies the re-interpretation of the historical record. It usually means challenging the orthodox views held by professional scholars about a historical event, or introducing new evidence, or of restating the motivations and decisions of the participant people.

One must be savage when dealing with savages.

So I don't get why Americans aren't pissed off about the Founding Fathers being slavemasters yet

>>1797086
While no one in America has ever flown an Italian flag for Columbus day I think I can clear up a misconception for you

>American Revolution
>We hate the British for many reasons
>Don't like to admit that John Cabbot, an English Explorer, made great discoveries and expeditions in North America
>Let's give all the credit to Columbus to make sure no one cares about John Cabbot
>After the Revolution we stop caring about Columbus
>fast forward to the mid 20th century
>Racial tensions between a lot of people
>Particularly Italians and everyone else
>Columbus was Italian
>Bring back Columbus day to make the Italians happy

Iirc

>>1797400
Really bad source, I've read Cod by Mark Kurlansky which your source is taken from and he does not imply the Basque had been fishing the coast of the Canadian Maritimes for centuries, not even a century. Probably in the neighborhood of a few decades.

While your prior statement revealed the anti-European zeitgeist common among contemporary pop historian; it did sound interesting, the idea that maybe Moors had some contact with the West Indies. Too bad you can't source it

>>1800852
Cabbot was italian too though

>>1796978
Nigga, read a fucking book. He deliberately tortured and enslaved natives due to his lust for gold. And before you go full retard and claim that this was accepted in his culture, it wasn't.l, and he received harsh criticism for his actions.

>>1800852
>>1800959
Does anyone else find Cabot's expeditions really neat? With De Carbonariis, it's a shame they weren't able to setup a permanent town

>>1796978
>he had racist views held by every European at the time!

Most europeans at the time didn't even know there were other races out there, what are you talking about?

>>1800924
>this is the bitchiest statement I've made yet on /his/, even including those done in Catholic-Protestant debate threads

>>1798074
>Bartolomé de las Casas
This guy was based.

>>1800979
b-but everyone was a racist in the past!
any atrocity is just the normal way in the past and you can't criticise people for them!

>>1798074
Literally confirmed he was biased and his texts are full of exaggeration and misinformation he used to make his point that indians were humans more easy to eat. A cause not as nice as it sounds, since had the indians been considered animals (ie souless) Spain would've lost any casus belli and legitimacy to conquer the americas.

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My only question is why we celebrate him in the United States of America.

>>1801752
>why we celebrate him in the United States of America.

Because a young nation with no history had to create its own mythology. And also because Catholics in particular were looking for someone to celebrate.

>>1801752
>>1801761

>Many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage, the first occasion being in New York City on October 12, 1866.[6] Columbus Day was first enshrined as a legal holiday in the United States through the lobbying of Angelo Noce, a first generation Italian, in Denver. The first statewide Columbus Day holiday was proclaimed by Colorado governor Jesse F. McDonald in 1905, and it was made a statutory holiday in 1907.[7] In April 1934, as a result of lobbying by the Knights of Columbus and New York City Italian leader Generoso Pope, Congress and President Franklin Delano Roosevelt proclaimed October 12 a federal holiday under the name Columbus Day.[7][8][9]

>At about 2:00 in the morning of 12 October, a lookout on the Pinta, Rodrigo de Triana (also known as Juan Rodríguez Bermeo), spotted land, and immediately alerted the rest of the crew with a shout. Thereupon, the captain of the Pinta, Martín Alonso Pinzón, verified the discovery and alerted Columbus by firing a lombard. Columbus later maintained that he himself had already seen a light on the land a few hours earlier, thereby claiming for himself the lifetime pension promised by Ferdinand and Isabella to the first person to sight land.

If you don't think Columbus was a dick, you don't know anything about Columbus.

>>1801810
>Genoa didn't want to fund his trip
>Venice didn't want to fund his trip
>Italians celebrate him
I hate the Knights of Columbus.

I thought I read somewhere that, although the Santa María ran aground and was fired upon and stripped of its lumber, Columbus, to save face, told Ferdinand and Isabella that he actually gave the ship to the natives as a gift.

However, I can't find a citation for that. Am I making things up?

>>1801891

If I recall correctly the ship was used to built a fort.

>It sank the next day.[8][9][10] Realizing that the ship was beyond repair, Columbus ordered his men to strip the timbers from the ship. The timbers were later used to build a fort which Columbus called La Navidad (Christmas) because the wreck occurred on Christmas Day, north from the modern town of Limonade[11][12]

>>1801923
I know. But to save face I thought he chose not to say that it had run aground but that it was given to the natives as a gift.

>>1801752
A good share of the founding family of the U.S. Have roots in Brittish Caribbean.

>>1802046
who other than Alexander Hamilton
even so, that's British, not Spanish

>>1802046
And a whole lot of italian, spanish, english, french and german jewry descend from people that began their history in the carribean islands and coasts of north, central and south america. Of spanish jewry stock.

>>1802060
In Salem, Mass they had caribbean island slaves. How did the caribbean island slave speak english? Most of these families came from the caribbean. Due to a schism in the Netherlands. What does plymouth have to do with the armada?
One of the biggest confusions in history was whether or not the armada docked in the americas or were they docked in europe? Were the majority of armada fleet creoles or peninsular born?

>>1797107
>>1797108
>>1797171
>>1797212
>>1797835
>>1799216
>>1800316
>>1800852

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSlX36QP_po

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>>1803341

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>>1803345

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>>1803347

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>>1803350

>>1797301
>They say that the ships Christopher Columbus used to sail belonged to arab Andalusians. He didnt own the ships not was he the only map maker on it nor navigator. He wasnt even the captain.

What the fuck are you talking about?? I live in a town where one of the ships was made and your post gave me cancer

>>1803345
So basically this thing is an excuse for the Italian diaspora in the United States to celebrate the life of a man who was at the service of a foreign kingdom (Crown of Castile) because the fucking Kingdom of Italy wouldn't be fully reunified until the 19th century?

>>1803392
see >>1801816
>Genoa didn't want to fund his trip
>Venice didn't want to fund his trip
>Italians celebrate him

>>1796983
>Even for his time he acted lawlessly and cruel toward the natives, that's why the Spanish had to rein him in.
That wasn't it at all though. The crown realized they fucked themselves out of a lot of money with the Capitulations of Santa Fe (Columbus and his family stood to earn 10% of any money made in the New World in perpetuity) and jailing him on the accusations was a great excuse to reneg on the terms and allow Spain even greater profits from the New World. His treatment of the Indians was simply a smokescreen for the real problem the crown had with him.

>>1797063
>In reality there's like one known example of shit like smallpox blankets and that was done to try and break a siege.
There's also no proof the smallpox blankets were ever used, only that their use was proposed.

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>>1796978
>Let's discredit his achievement because he had racist views held by every European at the time!
I'm not so sure about this. I once read a canadian history book that compared Columbus' report to Queen Isabella of Spain after his first expedition to Jacques Cartier's report to King Francis I of France after his second expedition. Columbus went on at length about how incredibly rich the Caribbean is, and how easy it would be to subjugate the Arawak. The natives were healthy strong people who would make good slaves, he also mentioned how he introduced them to gunpowder weapons by massacring a welcoming party. He recommended the queen send him back with a small army so he could take it for Spain (while making a healthy profit for him and his officers ofcourse)

While conversely Cartier discussed his visit to an Iroquois village of about 5000 people where he was very impressed by the wealth of furs they had everywhere, and they were likewise very interested in European manufactured goods. He recommended a follow up expedition outfitted to set up a permanent trading station.

While Cartier did come some 40 years after Columbus I think it shows that massacres and conquest were not the only way.

>>1800552
Because the fathers had redeeming traits and actually gave a shit about others.

>>1804921
Once again the superiority of France and French civilization is displayed ofc

>>1801752
Our colonies (Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands) were discovered by him. It is like when a friend of a friend makes a party and you say you guys know each other because you want free food.

>>1801752
he discovered your continet

>>1804989
No he didn't

>>1796978
Look up what he did on Hispaniola, one of the earliest examples of depopulation I can think of. Dude was a cruel asshole and shouldn't be celebrated for something that was already done

>>1796914
I'm tired of this shit, this fucking meme "colombus was a genicidal, spaniards conquistadores were rapist" come on! as if mayans and those savage people living there were paceful people, they were fighting between their tribes, they used to do sacrifies with children! imagine what those savage poeple would have done if they were discovered and entired land with people with less tech than them, they would have kill anyone, even children, spaniards instead, mixed with them. Yes they fought at first but what you expect? it was the fucking XIV century everyone was in war with everyone, Colombus and the conquistators were poeple from their era. It's unfair to look at them with a XXI perspective.
So stop crying you fucking mexican pussies, thanks to Colombus and Spain you can now cry on your fucking iphone about "huh da white rapist men" instead living in a fucking tree. Grow up.

>>1805774
>POL.
Or yahoo comments

>>1803350
haha that Italian flag.

Yep I love how Italian is well spoken throw central and southamerica. Lmao.

>>1803345
as a spaniard I only can laugh at this.

>>1805794
What's a POL.?

He was kind of a dick, should replace it with Amerigo Vespucci day. Much more relevant and his stories were adventurous as fuck.

>>1805794
that's not a reply, that's a copy paste. Try to have some personality and if you don't agree, tell me why.

>>1805774
He actually had peaceful passing with some Maya merchants. The people he genocided were the Taino and several other Caribbean people. And no his contemporaries were reviled by his actions so it wasn't 'what everyone was doing'.

>>1805774

What fucking meme ?

We know from first accounts he acted brutally against the native population you ignorant buffon.

>>1796914
>looking at his history, is he really this genocidal figure that many paint him ass?

He set foot on the new world, found natives, and eventually actually forced natives to work for him and his desperate crew after the long voyage else they would lose parts, ears, fingers, toes, etc.

So he was kind of an asshole yeah

>>1804989
He wasn't the first person to find the continent.
He wasn't even the first European to visit.
He wasn't even the first European to build a settlement there.

>>1806397

He was the one who told the autorithies, "eh, there is someting here, we should put this place on maps".

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>>1796978
>Literally one of the first Europeans to explore the New World

So what that he killed the natives, he won, thats how it goes right might makes right, Darwinian evolution all of that

No one bitches about the "evil" of the Mongols, only white european figures

>>1806619
because the Mongols just aren't relevant in the West in 2016 for a billion reasons
you could have made a better argument by pointing out how no one complains about the Arab conquests

>>1806629
the only time people complain about Imperalism is when its a White European doing it....

well you can say they were more "destuctive" yeah cause they had more advanced weapons

Yeah, he did terrible shit, but he also bought civilization. I don't see the point of trying to judge anyone from history using today's standards

>>1806637
Bullshit you /pol/ faggots use Islam's conquests as justification for hating Muslims despite no Muslim alive today having a shred of responsibility for those invasions.

>>1801752

Because he "discovered" the continent, and you have a lot of latinos.

Valen verga.

>>1806637
Quit whining, people talk about other people's conquests too. You always hear about the evil Ottomans, the barbaric Mongols, bloodthirsty Aztecs and dirty Arabs. Even Imperial Japan gets shit on too, maybe not so much by the west, who focuses on evil nazis, but chinese and koreans talk about it all the time. It makes sense you hear a lot about white Europeans though given they colonized nearly the whole world, so of course a fair amount of humanity will be butthurt about it.

>>1806786
I'm pretty sure the /pol/faggots use the invasion of Europe by Muslims and the subsequent rapes and murders done by said Muslims as justification for the hating of Muslims.

Unless you're talking about the edgy LARPers, then yeah, but hey at least the turkspammer keeps his shit on /his/.

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>>1806619
>might makes right, Darwinian evolution all of that
Holy fuck I'm getting sick of this nature worship.

>>1803345
this shit triggers me as a spaniard

muricans pretending to be italian that pretend to be from the same nation of a man who worked for the crown of castille, obtained titles of castile and died there.

Please North Korea nuke us

>>1800530
but all scholars believe columbus was a dick. Only the uneducated idiots say otherwise.

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>>1801032

>>1797063
>In reality there's like one known example of shit like smallpox blankets
That was actually debunked quite recently when the lead historian on the subject got caught having forged the document that supposedly proved it. Not even kidding.

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Wasn't even the first European to find the Americas.

>>1800530
don't forget, judging people by modern social standards.

So the Founding Fathers go from the most progressive people of their day. To EVIL RACIST SLAVE HOLDERS! TEAR THE STATUES DOWN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Christopher Columbus is the final boss in the "Literally Did Nothing Wrong" game.

>>1797063
Cant speak for central and south america but in North America it was a genocide. US and Canada did anything they could to wipe out the indigenous peoples. At first they merely walked in and just tried to kill or force out as many as they could by killing, ruining food, and water supplies. But that only did so much then they just focused on 'killing the indian and saving the child' by kidnapping kids and sending them to schools to have the traditional ways beaten out of them. Many children were killed in the process still. I cant fathom what they did to those generations of children but my great grandmother was one of them that were subjected to it. She never wanted to speak of it. ultimately the genocide failed but not without costing the lives of millions over the course of 3 centuries.

>>1804921
interesting view thanks for share.

>>1806786
Except "/pol/ faggots" only exist on 4chan while anti-white Christopher Columbus haters hold sway in academia and the greater culture at large. So the two aren't comparable in the least.

>>1811094
So disliking Columbus now is anti white? Interesting. I bet you also think it's leftist too.

>>1811104

I mean, it's not like that Anon is wrong in the least. Simple observation, you should be able to understand this.

>>1805774
Two wrongs don't make a right

>>1796914

Well, he was a dirty Genoan after all. He never could have been anything other than history's greatest monster

>GENOa
>GENOcide

Coincidence? I think not.

>>1811627
What's wrong with Genoans?

>>1811094
Christopher Colombus haters

>>1811385
but you don't hear anyone whining about genghis khan

>>1811627
you italians sure are a contentious people

>>1813296
You actually do plenty

Nobody at any point was like "wow Ghengis Khan was so cool"

I don't see how that's relevant to critique of a dude who ordered people to have their hands or other parts cut off and his crew to induldge themselves with any girl any age under 14 and to kill any who fought back against his iron fist

If the court found it repulsive all the way back then I don't think there's really a need to defend old Chris

>>1800979
>you need to know races exist for you to be racist
b8

>>1813333
This is ironically the mindset that leads to people being conquered.

In history, arrogance isn't cute.

>>1813339
Conquest isn't bad

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>>1813333
>WE

>>1813348
Tell that to pol that can't handle muslims conquering their backwards western culture.

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>>1813333
>better at conquest
Being better at conquest than a bunch of people without iron isn't an achievement.

Why not just stress the point that tyranny existed in every culture?

>>1800979
>Moors
>Turks

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>>1813339
99% of dickheads through history lived in opulent splendor their entire lives.

>>1813365
Whose fault is that? Why couldn't they acquire iron?

>>1813361
That's just because capitalism and mass immigration has wiped out white western cultural identity

Just pray that shit hits the fan soon enough and that reactionary governments come back into power

>>1808389

Hello, my fellow Redditor! I love vikings too. Leif Erikson was such a badass! BIG STRONG NORDIC MEN, amirite? xDDD *holds up spork*

>>1808598
Actually no. The vast majority of deaths occurred because of exposure to foerwing disease. Though America frequently broke treaties in an attempt to achieve manifest destiny.

>>1797051
>The problem was more "they're heathens" than a racial one.

Is this what they teach in schools today? We have transcripts of debates between clergy about whether or not the Natives were humans or animals, and if they were human were they included in the Gospel's message due to their inferiority.

The first point of contention was are they even people, not even if they're simply inferior.

>>1800979
>>1801021
Are you fucking retarded? You know Alexander wanted to conquer all of Asia, right? He reached India. They had dealt with Arabs and Turks long before Columbus. Honestly, what are you even doing on this board?

>>1800979
>Most europeans at the time didn't even know there were other races out there
they knew about
>blacks
>asians
>turks

>>1813388
capitalism and mass immigration only function because they are explicitly white supremacist. they wouldn't be allowed otherwise. benevolence and cultivating diversity are white inventions and feature as the most advanced political thinking of our time. human rights too, which is why the west denounces china and the middle-east over its human rights abuses; obviously not because they support non-whites

>>1808598
>US and Canada did anything they could to wipe out the indigenous peoples

No, the vast majority died to disease. There's evidence it wasn't even originally brought by Europeans, but by fucking seals.

>>1807005
They're definitely not pretending to be Italian. That's where they descend from. It was started by Italian-American societies because everyone else was getting holidays, so why not them.

Those same groups tried to get mafia classified as hate speech by the way.

>>1813428
How is inviting a big black guy over to fuck your wife white supremacy?

>>1813461
i can outmeme you, don't even bother

>>1813428
>capitalism is white supremacist
You don't know what either of those words mean.

Feudalism, fascism, (((communism))), and other government/economic systems were all invented by whites too (with outside influences in some cases or comparable creations in other societies). This doesn't mean we need to defend every single one or continue using them.

>>1813428
Diversity doesn't work, mixing cultures only results in the end of all of them. minorites should be part of a country, but countries should always take steps through immigration control and child limits to make sure that they stay minorites

I see that a lot of people here >>1796978 with "b-but he was still c-cruel even according to the people of his time!"

I don't see how that necessarily invalidates CC's achievements -- he still did explore and helped popularize the new world to Europeans, like it or not.

If anything, the obsession about with his personality is just all the more trivial. I agree that we should not celebrate heinous acts such as selling children to slavery, but we should not allow that to distract us from the fact that Columbus brought an entire continent to the attention of powerful people and altered the course of human history forever.

>>1813469
what is your point and how does it relate to mine?

Wait a sec, did Columbus really get imprisoned for his treatment of the natives? I remember reading about this in one of those Christian-published pocket books as a kid and they made it out like he had literally done nothing wrong and that the Spanish were just assholes.

>>1813478
Disputing the idea that these are "white supremacist" creations. And even if they were, that doesn't mean anything about their continued use.

>>1813480
He got imprisoned based on claims about his treatment of natives.

But this doesn't mean that it's WHY he was actually imprisoned. Political and financial reasons exist for the Crown to fuck him over in collusion with the Church.

>>1813473
diversity hasn't even been tried to the extent that it exists today, and it only exists today because of globalisation and the exportation of neo-liberal capitalism. it's just a side-effect of engaging in so much trade; think of venice as an example and the scuole for people of different nationalities.

besides, 'diversity' is not real multiculturalism, only the kind that is allowed by consumption. of course we will have teething problems given that it has only been about 40 years since jet travel has allowed faster movement of people around the world, but given that the system is still white supremacist it will find a way to work with a 'comfortable' diversity

>>1813495
Or hopefully the increasing racial tensions lead to an all out race war and the restablishment of a racially homogenous west

>>1813469
>Feudalism was invented by whites

>>1813485
so are you saying we should stop being capitalist? i'm still not sure what relevance this is

>>1813499
it won't be because whiteness isn't homogeneous. unless you mean race in a political way

>>1813485
I spoke to older people about 'america'. What america meant to them and how its concept has evolved throughout their life. You'll see how many of them are not fond of the concept 'latin america'. As to who brought this kool aid over no one knows. But they reassured me for a long time even upto a certain point of their life latin america was known as "indian america." In Spanish, the people from the area south of the u.s. Including some states of the u.s. was known to them, colloquially as America India. It wasnt until the U.S. started mass immigration from those regions that the term latin america became more acceptable, but it was an anglo america move.

>>1813513
>the eternal anglo strikes again

>>1813506
Not really though
Eastern/Western Europeans are the only destination left when it comes to whites and that will be out the window once any race based conflict starts

>>1813513
This great divide of the continent was Nord America and Sud America. It was customary for peninsular spanish to call people from Sud America, Suracos.

>>1813513
>>1813550
SUDACA
U
D
A
C
A

>>1813559
Sorry I just had to remind how erroneous the modern peninsular is.

If they would have continued that system the english would be partially admitting that the only east india company was basically the corporation that founded the 13 colonies in oriente de las indias occidentales. Why is english food so bland yet they smoke like cowboys?

>>1813437
Apparently the Mississippi culture died out from pigs that Pizarro brought with him that got loose and spread disease.

>>1813598
And they warred with portugal when the taxes on tea became too high.

>>1813602
How long have prairie dogs been hosts for the plague in the us? Did the europeans bring the plague over too?

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>>1813388
>That's just because Zapa Incaism and mass spanish immigration has wiped out Quechua cultural identity
>Just pray that shit hits the fan soon enough and that the Wak'a come back into power

>>1813501
The idea of a landed lore and serfs with European hierarchy was invented by whites.

Other cultures had different hierarchies based and legitimized differently.

>>1813502
>I don't understand the relevance of a basic refutation of my claim and the reasoning that even if it were true, it would be meaningless.

>>1798074
>De Las Casas

He had nice intentions, but was a liar. I thought this was common knowledge among those interested in history.

>>1813474
but racism

>>1811094
>Christopher Columbus
what you forget to mention is that most of thge "hate" is specificallydirected at Columbus, while other (more relevant) figures like Cortés get a much more objective treatment, even in mexican academia

>>1813742
So was everybody with respect to numbers in pre modern times.
What he says was most likely true, even if his numbers are off.

>>1813480

He got cucked for that on legal grounds, but in practice it was more because he was an incompetent administrator and a political bydlo that had pissed off too many too much.

Las Leyes de Indias, passed years later basically establish equal rights for indians and prohibited their slavery or mistreatment. However, in practice, on the ground, it was more like well, yes, the law is there and things in theory are like this and that and black lives matter and so on... but in the end the indian gets cucked every now and then.

>>1813453
muh heritage??

columbus have nothing to do with them, except if for some reason "their heritage" was born in genoa.

i guess plastic feast days for a plastic country

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>>1813396
>If you agnowledge that the vikings where the first europeans in the americas your a le viking fanboy

>>1813418
>>1813422
What on earth makes you think the average european peasant knew any of that in god damn 1492? I said "MOST".

>>1813321
How else are you going to be racist? How are you going to hate a collective that you don't even know it exists?

>>1814875
You honestly think the peasant's local priest wasn't regularly telling them about how evil the muslim turks/moors/arabs were?

>>1806007
So english men did in the north and in australia. That was the average behaivor of men in those centuries you cant blame them. The world was a different place.