Where the byzantines roman? Like obviously the were a direct

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They were corrupt greeks that had stolen roman lands from the true sons of Rome.

The "Byzantines" you cite came over 500 years after the "Romans" you cite.
There is no point you can pick when the Byzantines ceased to be Roman, because it was a gradual process just like every culture. In the same way, you could ask the same about the French and the Franks. Clearly modern day French dont share the exact same values as their 9th century counterparts.

>>1786875
they were an uninterrupted continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire, and thus they are the Roman Empire.

the stick up /his/'s asses is mostly related to the later Empire's conversion to Christianity and shifting of the cultural center to Greece, but 1000+ year state is naturally going to change with the times as well as the people within it. Whether it was under a Christian or Pagan Emperor, or whether in Greece or in Italy, it was still the Roman Empire, and its people held Roman citizenship.

as for "share the same values" in your post, cultural values change with time as well, but the Byzantine rule of law was virtually unchanged from that of the old Roman Code, just condensed and streamlined for more effective comprehension and faster processes of carrying out law.

in short, yes, the Byzantines were still the Eastern Roman Empire throughout, but the state changes over the course of 1000 years, much like how the England of 1200 is almost nothing like the England of today when it comes to values and cultures.

>>1786880
Ottomans aren't even from the region, or any region that Rome ruled over.

>>1786955
I am going to need that tale for my pasta folder

>>1786955
This is his fifth trip btw

>>1786875
OP values and culture changes constantly look at the WRE, it even changed its religion.

>>1786875
Rome in 480 BC differs immensely form Rome in 450 AD. Yet no one tries to argue that either one isn't Rome.
The Eastern Roman empire in 1450 differs just as much from the Rome in 450 as the previous two stated examples.
The Eastern Roman empire as it stood before the capture of Constantinople in 1453, is a direct political descendant of the city that was founded in 753B.C.
Cultural differences don't matter, empires and people change. France was France a thousand years ago and and still is today, despite incalculable differences.
Rome lasted from 22 centuries 753 BC to 1453 AD. There are no successors, claiming any state or federation of Germanic states to be the successor to the Romans empire is simple wewuzism.

If the Byzantine Empire is not the Roman Empire than France has no claim on Charlemagne's kingdom or England no claim on Alfred the Great or Richard the Lionheart.

>>1786875
>Where the byzantines roman?
Kinda yes. They were the successors of Rome in the same sense as France succeded the frankish empire.

>>1787050
What about the split from the church? Also did the byzantines always speak greek or did it become more widespread after constantine

>>1787060
Greek was always the prestige and culture language in Rome, east and west. But since in the east it was the prestige and culture language even before Rome, it's obvious why it was more common. Not to mention the greek citizens in colonies founded by Alexander and his generals.

But most people outside of the Aegean region spoke armenian, syriac or coptic. At least until east rome lost those territories, of course.

>>1786875
Caesar, Cicero and Cato either had extremely different notions on what being a roman was.

>>1787060
>What about the split from the church?
What does that matter? The romans themselves shifted from their own syncretistic atavic religion to christianity, why should the schism be counted against the ERE?
>Also did the byzantines always speak greek or did it become more widespread after constantine
No, iirc they shifted to greek after Justinian. Of course greek was always the main language in Greece and the east, even if latin was basically as common as french in the 19th century.

>>1787075
>Greek was always the prestige and culture language in Rome, east and west.
Actually Caesar wrote that the prestige language in the gauls and inland spain was actually latin, even before the conquest.

>>1787101
They shifted to greek after Heraclius. I've read somewhere that Justinian was the last one to have it as his mother language, although I don't get why his sons and grandsons would not have it as well.

>>1786880
>true sons of rome
>not even christian

perdat infidum reeeeeeeeeeeee

>>1786875
They were meme Romans.

I don't mean that as a shitpost, but literally. They were Greeks who adopted Roman memes.

>>1787241
Did they adopt the dank memes like abracadabra? Or just pleb memes like the satre square?

>>1787320
they adopted the biggest meme of all, christianity

>>1786880
Cool, you've establsihed your internet personality. Now fuck off

How familiar would the Byzantine nobility or bureaucratic class have been with their pagan Greek ancestors or the history of the Roman Republic, and the Latin or Classical Romans?

I do think they're a legitimate continuation of the Roman Empire but I also think there's enough difference between them and the "true" Romans to warrant a different term for them altogether.

>>1786955
plus, romulus and remulus were raised by a she-wolf, this is clearly similar to the turkic origin story also involving a she-wolf.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena
>Legend tells of a young boy who survived a battle; a female wolf finds the injured child and nurses him back to health. The wolf, impregnated by the boy, escapes her enemies by crossing the Western Sea to a cave near the Qocho mountains and a city of the Tocharians, giving birth to ten half-wolf, half-human boys. Of these, Ashina becomes their leader and establishes the Ashina clan, which ruled over the Göktürk and other Turkic nomadic empires.[6][7]

>>1788612
I can't believe the turks are furries.

>>1787352
Touche

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>>1788627
Secret hand signal to identify one's self as a furry

>>1787241
Roman actively sought to be a meme of Greece

>>1786996
If England collapsed and the government moved to the Angevin territories on the continent, would you still call this entity "England"?

well romans respected the greeks so if daddy rome was around to see byzantine grow into a man i'm sure he'd say he was proud regardless

on the other hand, those barbarians claiming to also be the roman empire...

>>1788593
>How familiar would the Byzantine nobility or bureaucratic class have been with their pagan Greek ancestors or the history of the Roman Republic, and the Latin or Classical Romans?
If the writings of George Sphrantzes are anything to go by then yes, they were intensely familiar with it and very proud of it.

>>1786875
If Pontus and Greece had a baby, and then Rome murdered Pontus, fucked Greece, and raised the baby as his wife's son, that baby would be the Byzantines.

>>1789894
Oh and this new government happens to speak French and practices another religion, but they're still "England" right?

>>1786927
This. Not sure why it's really up for debate

>>1789949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government-in-exile
Yes, faggot.

>>1789949
These didn't happen overnight. Nice strawman though.

Threads about Byzantium always make me end up loathing this entire board. They were Romans. If you think the people of a civilisation remain the same over many, many centuries of history then you're a god damn fool. The Roman Empire of 400 AD is near unrecognisable to the empire of even 200 years earlier. The term Byzantine is a disparaging term to undermine their legitimacy.

Even ignoring the changes in Roman culture and self-perception over the centuries, even officially Byzantium was the same political state as the Roman Empire. The Western Roman emperor was deposed in 476 and his diadem and symbols of office sent by Odoacer back to the emperor in Constantinople, officially reuniting the Roman state.

>>1791624
>'officially'

The HRE also saw themselves as a continuation of the Roman Empire.

>>1791631
There's a difference between seeing yourself as one because the Pope crowned you, and being the same state. The Papacy claimed the right to bestow secular power centuries after the collapse of the Empire in the west. The Byzantines were in the right to see Charlemagne and his ilk as jumped up usurpers with no authority.

>>1787241
What about the Gauls, Iberians, Illyrians, Britons, Phoenicians and Assyrians who became Roman? Are these "meme" Romans as well?

>>1787241
By that logic, everyone outside central Italy, including people from Syracuse, would be meme romans too. Remember most of the population of Sicily were from either greek or north african descent.

>>1793359
But that's the thing. To a Roman, you weren't truly Roman unless you were born and raised in Rome her self OR if you couldn't point to a direct family member in Rome.

Even in central Italy, the people living there were known as Italian citizens of the Roman Empire.

Same for a Iberia, gaul, Egypt.
Just because you were born in Roman lands didn't make you a Roman.

You are just a citizen of the Empire of Rome. Without being Roman.

>>1794285
>To a Roman, you weren't truly Roman unless you were born and raised in Rome her self OR if you couldn't point to a direct family member in Rome.
But that's fucking wrong.

>>1786875
>Where the byzantines roman

Of course not, but the Holy Roman Empire was.

>>1794967
Wew lad.

>>1786980
It ended with the Fourth Crusade and the Nicaean Empire that reconquered Constantinople was a successor state.

>>1786880
great post

>>1794950
It's actually right. The romans gave away citizenship, but they still were extreme snobs towards non romans-of-rome.
You just have to look at how much criticism for being "foreigners" fell on the likes of Cato the Censor (b. Tusculum), Cicero (b. Arpinum), Marius (b. Arpinum), Pompey and all his cronies (b. Picenum), Agrippa (Arpinum but of messapian origins), etc.

>>1791631
The HRE does not have a direct line of authority from the Roman Empire. The "Byzantines" actually do. The word "Byzantine Empire" did not even exist until an entire century after the Roman Empire stopped existing when Constantinople was conquered by the Ottomans.