Sparta

>>1783130
They were pretty based.

They biggest flaw however was their over reliance on the helots.

>>1783130
>Was Sparta really as based as people say they were?

No. It's true they had the most "warrior culture" in Greece and were feared and respected, but ultimately they lost about as much as they won. Other Greek cities could go toe to toe with them.

The "deal" with Sparta is that they had a warrior class that was greatly outnumbered by the slave population, which is both what made the dedicated warrior class possible (since others did all the work) and what made it nevessary, to protect against revolts.

>>1783130
>300 Spartans
Also they were profilic homosexuals and pederasty was part of their culture.

>>1783130

They were good warriors but strategically pretty cowardly. They never took any risks.

>>1783542
It's called being smart.

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>>1783557

>>1783130
...lol no.
Growing up as a spartan (male) would be pure hell.
Literally just living your life constantly on the verge of death, with little to no luxuries. Constantly training.
The education system was vigorous and if you were too weak to make it you'd be fucked, even at a youngish age.
And then to truly become a "man" you have to bring yourself to kill slaves.
Maybe at the time this would all be okay, but compare it to your life now and it's not so rosey.
It's cool. It's cool that a society like that existed, and it was certainly very powerful, but what's the point in having a good military when you lack culture?
Athens is much more respectable imo. Wayb less barbaric. Actually advancing society and influencing ours today.
Spartans were just a bunch of brainless warriors. Again, cool from a romantic perspective as this epic military state but realistically it'd be shit.

>>1783581
Why were hoplites even a thing if a bunch of skirmishers could deck them?

>>1783595
Alright wise guy why don't you try fighting a hoplite phalanx and see how tough it is.

>>1783605
That doesn't fucking answer the question at all retarded living pro abortion advertisement. Also it's kinda hard to fight a phalanx nowadays because there are not many hoplites in 2016.

>>1783595

Because greek warfare was almost ritualized and once people started going outside that mold, hoplites phased out. With them went Sparta.

>>1783614
So why Greeks even defeated Persians? Surely they didn't give a shit about foreign rituals?

>>1783622
The Greeks didn't play by the rules when fighting against the Persians

>>1783613
Take a joke anon.
>pro abortion advertisement
What does that have to do with anything?
Well, being anything but makes you kind of retarded but...

>>1783622

The Persians beat the Greeks many times, including at the Ionian revolt. The three major battles people think about where Persians and Greeks faced off against each other were;

Marathon, where the Greeks rushed the Persians before they formed a cohesive line

Thermopylae, where the greeks lost once they got flanked.

Plataea, which was a close run thing between greeks and the persian occupying force.

The greeks beat the persians at sea, not land.

>>1783589
Not to mention Athenian men were allowed that sweet underage boycock

>>1783647
The parties would have been great. Wine, good food, some communal sex.
Meanwhile in Sparta you'd be fending for yourself in the barracks or just being fucking dead.

>>1783130
They were largely irrelevant to the grand scope of history.

>>1783711
But they fought against Athens for hegemony repeatedly.

After invading southern Greece and receiving the submission of other key city-states, Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I invade Laconia you will be destroyed, never to rise again." The Spartan ephors replied with a single word: "If."

Subsequently, neither Philip nor his son Alexander the Great attempted to capture the city. Philip is also recorded as approaching Sparta on another (?) occasion and asking whether he should come as friend or foe; the reply was "Neither".

>>1783634
There's also a Persian force completely reversing an Athenian siege at Memphis in Egypt, then counter-sieging the Athenians and destroying their army, and the little remnants left were routed back to Greece.

And the Persian fleet with the Athenian navy also destroyed the Spartans at sea in the Corinthian War.

>>1783726
And it produced absolutely nothing but provide a couple of memes.

>>1783589
Spartan lads weren't pushed to the verge of death, that's a myth pushed by later writers after the time of Sparta. They were apparently given enough food to grow and exercise, but not enough to feel 'completely' full. Their education wasn't based around masochist draconian discipline. It was more about living ascetically while being properly drilled in military manners. Their exercises weren't that intense, it's just that most of the Spartiates were at-least moderately physically fit and regularly did physical exercise while only a portion of the male populace other cities did so.
>>1783595
They either routed skirmishers into confined places where they couldn't escape as easily, or sent cavalry, peltkast, or their youngest and most athletic to chase after them. Hoplites were great at holding an area and enduring inevitable enduring assaults. Standard tactic later was to use light troops and cavalry to route them in a way that they were confined to face them. But the lack of mobility and flexibility is why Greek city-states never expand to cover large territory like the Persians did until Macedon became preeminent, which they did by lightening the hoplites and placing more significance on light troops and cavalry and logistics.

>>1783622
Greeks defeated the Persians in the first two Persian primarily because having advantage with being on the defense in the type of terrain that supported their military tactics, while it was opposite for the Persians. Persians had the finest cavalry in the world at the time, and had proficient logistical planning. For the mainland plains of West Asia, where the most prosperous cities lay primary on plains, having a fast-moving and well-supplied army was key to overrunning cities and laying dominance over the region. If lived in some city in mainland Mesopotamia or Asia Minor back then, and the Persians invade your land much faster than you expected, and siege you, you were fucked unless you stock up on provisions to out-last them / send out superior counter troops / hope that some interest would drive them away.

Greece is different. Southern Greece (where Persians were met with actual resistance) was mountainous and hilly. Calvary back then didn't have saddles, stir-ups, or proper horse shoes, so they couldn't efficiently be ridden in many of the areas or had the space to do-so. The quick moving Persian army, owed it's speed because of it's light infantry and prominent cavalry and horse culture , which weren't of most use to the areas which the Greeks chose to fortify and and lure them to fight at. against defensive troops like hoplites.

What is the likely cause of why the Persian army collapsed in Greece was that Xerxes left with a portion of the troops on his expedition to repel a rebellion in one of his subjugated provinces. Persian army hoped to sieged the Peloponnese until the cities turned against each other and submit, but natural disasters and lost of key leaders and battles pushed them back, and with the betrayal by their central and Northern Greek allies, they broke up and got chased out.

>>1783742
Sparta was a joke at that point. Philip could have launched a full out assault and defeated their outdated hoplites in pitch battle until he was outside their unwalled city; but he didn't, as it was pointless. He wasn't aiming to conquer all cities as principle, but ensure hegemony and preeminence in power like Sparta had in 390-378, where they had the backing of other political leagues and powers on their side. Philip went against leagues who acted as their own entity, which is why all of them besides for Sparta got subjugated and annexed. Sparta wasn't apart of those leagues, and sending troops to kill their troops and conquer them would be redundant. Why? Because by conquering them, you would pretty much would've killed all the Spartites, lose some of your own men, just to have a shitty town filled with impractical helots, that, although they would be of some economic benefit paying tribute, they wouldn't be worth the effort when they could just conquer much more easier Thracian / Illyrian / Celtic / Paeanian tribes to subjugate them for tribute. Keeping them alive would ensure that they would be forced to support them with their Spartiate troops.

>>1784147
>>1783847
>>1783634
Persians weren't able to really use their cavalry much if at all given the terrain of Greece where they came was rocky, hilly, and not much in the way of viable even leveled ground until Plataea.

>>1783595
Because hoplites with any support at all will fucking slaughter them.

>>1784200

Actually, the reason the Macedonians left Sparta be was likely that they were worth more as political bogeymen rather than subjugated people. A hatred of Sparta was what unified most Greeks, which suited Philip and Alexander well.

Yes. They killed 6 million Persians

>>1783130
They were turbo autists. >>1783589 is right.

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>>1783130
Spartans are a meme.

People get hopped up on the high school metaphors because they went to high schools which had a Spartan as its mascot, but Spartans would not have been like uber-jocks picking on Athenian nerds, they would have been more like the football kicker: somebody who does enough to warrant a varsity letter and uses it to pick on non-athletes but in practice doesn't really do a lot of the heavy lifting, and once they got into a fight with someone who isn't some scrawny punk they got BTFO.

The two best examples of this were Marathon and Salamis, and there were probably dozens of lesser known examples where there was always a convenient religious ritual that prevented them from deploying their forces until the Greeks had a clear advantage, in which case they'd show up late to the party and then strut around like they did all the work. They even pulled this shit at Thermopylae, which is why they only sent 300 hoplites where other cities sent thousands.

Every contemporary account of the city of Sparta had this to say about it: if you ever actually went there and observed it for yourself, you would be so thoroughly underwhelmed that you wouldn't believe that a people like this could be relevant on the world stage. They lived in simple thatched roof mud huts and everything about them was an exaggeration: They didn't practice eugenics, their agoge was a glorified hazing ritual designed to teach citizens how to be cruel to underlings, and they weren't even particularly athletic: at the Olympics they weren't the most winning city-state and were notorious cheats and rules-whores.

Their victory against Athens in the Peloponnesian War was a fluke, the result of going to war in the aftermath of a devastating plague which had left Athens with a fraction of its tax base and manpower reserves.

Though the Spartans were well drilled there was nothing innovative about their military doctrine, they got BTFO the moment hoplites were obsolete.

>>1786768
Which city state had best athletes?

>>1786791
There was never a clear "best". Then, as now, the city with the most wins were usually the city-states with the most wealth to invest in athletics programs

>>1786809
Sooooo which city had the most wins?

>>1789072
Probably Athens

>>1783130
battle of 300 champions proves they're nothing special sore losers. I still like them anyway.

They were actually quite based, even besides Thermopylae, which was a meme.

Read Plutarch - On Sparta, then decide for yourself.