Daily reminder that most objective scholars agree Christ was

Reza Aslan isn't a scholar. He's a creative writing teacher. He has no business writing about history, he isn't a historian.

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>>1742269
question: where does the giant cube factor into christ's ministry?

>>1742278

Right because one's current profession means that a person is barred from doing anything else regardless of their entire background. By that fucking logic Eisenhower had no right to be president because he had no previous political office and spent most of his career in the military.

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>>1742298
are you suggesting that a person's experience and work quality are unrelated?

>>1742278
He's just presenting academic consensis in an accessible way.

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>>1742321
>consensis

>>1742310
So... you believe everything in Leviticus should be applied to your life literally, or only the convenient parts?

>>1742269
>abrahamite shitposting
Sorry, fampai! The dharmic and taotic religions will probably fare better efter first proof of extra terrestial intelligent life. Not that it's a high probability in the near future. But why bet on the wrong horse?

>>1742321
"""academic consensus"""

>>1742269
>Reza Aslan
>most objective scholars
My dear turkposter...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9RmAo6XVAA

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>>1742335
Jesus taught us that תוֹרָה and נביאיםis encapsulated by:

>‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

>>1742321
Really? cause most scholars I know think that Jesus was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher. Comparing him to Islam is absurd.

There are English professors who have written decent history books, but you have to be skeptical of them

>>1742298
It's a totally different situation. Reza Aslan has no training in historiography or understanding of the historical method and isn't familiar with the academic consensus on the topic.

>>1742364
"Jewish apocalyptic preacher" is a lot closer to Islam than Christianity.

>>1742470
How?

>>1742475
Judaism and Islam have way more in common than either does with Christianity. They're both very legalistic religions that have things like dietary code, and both would see the idea of Jesus being God as blasphemous.

>>1742502
And that's not even touching on the Trinity

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>>1742344
>Pacman
The nose knows.

In short, Reza's a commercial sensationalist trying to cash in on controversy but the people most involved in discrediting him are Palestinian hating Shlomos and Ameritards still butt flustered over their self done 9/11.

>>1742269
You forgot to mention that the author isn't a historian, but a mere writer.Also, if Jesus was more Muslim than Christian, then he would've married a child, beat her because she is "disobedient", promote the concept of "Holy war" to exponentially increase the number of his supporters and followers.

>>1742824
>Implying Jews aren't instructed to stone their children for being disobedient.

>>1742269
>Christ was closer to a Muslim than a "Christian"

But Jesus didn't rape the woman at the well.

>>1742845
True, but my point still stands.

>>1742269
jesus was like mohammed?

>>1742310
I wanna fuck that remarkable stone.

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>>1742269
wtf. Did you even read the book? If anything Aslan argues he was more connected to John the Baptist and followed an anti-roman/anti-occupation/anti-temple priest fervor.

Furthermore, he argues he had more in common with his brother James and what would eventually be the mother assembly.

There is 7 centuries between Islam and Jewish-Christianity. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about OP, and I doubt you even read the book.

>>1742443
He has a BA and and MA on religious studies/theology. His PhD was in sociology, but it was about Islamic extremism. He does have valid credentials as a religions studies scholar.

>>1743864
>He has a BA and and MA on religious studies/theology.

Religious Studies is not Theology.
Religious Studies is the secular study of Religion; Theology is not.

>>1743885
His BA is in religious studies, and he got an MA in theology. That's extremely common for religious studies scholars who study Abrahamic religions; pretty much every religion professor I've had had those credentials. The main difference is that his PhD wasn't in that field, but his thesis was related to religion.

He has valid credentials, if you don't think he does, you probably haven't spend a lot of time around actual religion scholars. Whether or not you like his conclusion doesn't change the validity of his background.

>>1742269
>>1742278
Reza Aslan is most likely not even Muslim. He's secretly a Ba'hai but lies about being Muslim to avoid persecution. I have potential evidence for this claim.

>>1742310
that version doesnt exist

heres a king james:

You shall make no idols nor graven images, neither raise you up a standing image, neither shall you set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

all you see in church are statues of "jesus" made from stone, saw some pillars too,

so yeah Christianity please fix yourself

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>>1743942

>>1742269
Jesus Christ, God, believes that satan is God.

kek

>>1743942
Catholicism, and it cannot fix itself.

>>1743917
He's in the basket of deplorable writers like Dan Brown, Bart Ehrman and Richard Dawkins who do nothing but self-promote by hacking at Christianity.

>>1743909
I never said I doubt his credentials. I simply said there is a difference between Religious Studies and Theology.

Christianity has been severely misshapen by Western Egotism and Materialism.

>>1742502
>They're both very legalistic religions that have things like dietary code
Which Jesus discarded.

Islamic scholars are not scholars.

Islam is antithetic to Christ and Christianity.

Nobody believes Christ created the universe.
>>1743952
Those are not to be bowed-down to, they exist to keep Him in mind.

Also, Muslims pray to a literal giant cube.

>>1743955
yes, but the difference is he is qt best hack 10/10 and shares a name with the talking lion from Narnia

why are most christian denominations trinitarians? I can't find any good evidence in the Bible that Jesus is God and that God is a trinity, but on the other hand, I can find a lot of evidence that the Lord God of Israel is God alone (and not a trinity), and Jesus is his son and first creation.

>>1744778
John 20:28

Hebrews 1

John 1:1-3 ("was" is a translation of the Greek which uses a tense for both past and present,sort of like "The Word be with God, and the Word be God")

>>1744796
>In the beginning be the Word, and the Word be with God, and the Word be God.

Also see Proverbs 8 and 9, which talks about the Wisdom of God, which is considered synonymous with the Word of God (only difference is Wisdom is a feminine word in Hebrew and Greek, whereas "Word" is masculine in both languages).

>>1744081
>>1742502
>>1742475
>>1742470
To be precise, "Jewish apocalyptic preacher" is a lot closer to what Muhammad and Jesus were originally all about than what both Islam and Christianity later became. Both men were concerned about social and moral reform on the eve of the end times.

>>1744810
How was Muhammad Jewish or apocalyptic?

>>1743848
>Did you even read the book?
Where do you think we are?

>>1742279
Literally a meme. Even Islamists want to destroy it. But Saudis keep it around for obvious reasons.

>>1744815
He was a leader among an Arabian religious movement that was heavily inspired by Judaism and Christianity, and preached to all three to join in a brotherhood to right the wrongs of society, purge it of things the Abrahamic God disapproved of, all to await the approaching end of the world.

Like Jesus, once this failed to happen, other aspects of his life and message were elaborated upon while Judgment Day got delayed over and over.

>>1744810
How is Islam unlike what Mohammed preached?

>>1742269

Perhaps, but Judaism is even closer.

>>1744815

Not that queer, but he certainly tried to pass himself off as a Jewish prophet, and only turned on the Jews when they tested his claims and found them without merit.

>>1744852
"Judaism", today, refers to Pharisaic Judaism (except for the Karaites, but Jesus certainly wasn't like them, Sadducees would be closer to that), so no, not really.

>>1744796
really, it doesn't make any sense that God would be trinity, if you've read the old testament.

1 corinthians 8:6 claims that there is but one God. also, if Jesus is God, then wouldn't he be lying in matthew 24:36? surely then he must have known the moment himself also.

>>1744838
Because it's a faith whose theology was influenced by the existing religions, cultures, and of course politics of Mesopotamia during the course of the first two or three centuries.

Islam as we know it is a religion mostly compiled and conceived of by 9th century Persian and Arab Iraqis than 7th century Meccans and Medinans - if that's where Muhammad actually lived and preached to begin with.

>>1744856
The Trinity has one will and action, hence one God. Each person just performs different functions of that action (not really incongruent with Isaiah 55:11), the functions being the from, by and in.

>>1744858
So you don't think Mohammed practiced anything like Islam?

>>1744865
No more than Jesus practiced Catholicism or Mormonism.

>>1744855

Okay. So? It's still closer to what he would have believed. If you actually wanted to follow in Jesus' footsteps, it wouldn't be hard to reconstruct 1st century Judaism, all the texts have been preserved, you'd just have to throw out the rabbinical tradition (which would be ironic since Jesus was a rabbi, but you're the one who claimed modern Judaism is nothing like the Judaism of Jesus time)

>>1744868
How do you think his practice different from Islam?

>>1744869
Rabbi just means "master".

>>1744877
see >>1744831

>>1744881
Doesn't really answer my question

>>1744861
I'm not sure what to make out of your argument, since I cannot see any evidence for the existence of a trinity, but rather it being an ideology that was decided by councils of clergymen centuries after Christ. most denominations seem to have an explanation for the trinity like
>DUDE IT'S A MYSTERY LMAO

>>1744887
You don't think the Old Testament makes a distinction between the Spirit of God and God as someone who the Spirit of is of? You don't think Proverbs 8 makes a distinction of the Wisdom of God as a distinct subsistence?

>>1742349
Have you done that perfectly in your life?

No?

So, still a lawbreaking sinner?

>>1744895
I don't think the Spirit of God is a separate person

>>1744886
I'm sorry you're unsatisfied, but regardless that's my answer to your question. What Muhammad preached was a purge of what he saw as the influence of polytheism among Arab Jews, Christians, and Abrahamics in order to form a religious fraternity that would await Judgment Day.

>>1744897
So you don't see Psalm 104:30 as distinguishing the Spirit?

>>1744901
And that religious fraternity is Islam

>>1742278
He has degrees in theology of some description.

>>1744903
No. That's what it became after his death, and on decidedly different terms than a religious movement not overly concerned with arguing theology beyond the concept of absolute monotheism and inclusive of both Jews, Christians, and Jewish-Christians in Arabia.

>>1744914
Islam really isn't concerned with arguing theology, other than saying God is not a Trinity. Al-Ghazali is famous precisely for knocking down extensive Islam "theology". Islam is more concerned with behaving as Mohammed taught.

>>1744856
The Trinity is a clear pagan innovation.

>>1744902

>You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

There's no definite theological answer, but there is theological application that the Spirit sends itself and what we make it after that is what's important not so much how we define it

>>1744085
Agree that Catholics and Muslims share identical fates in the afterlife.

>>1744928
How so? It's attested to clearly in both the OT and the NT

>>1744902
that's hardly evidence that the Spirit is a person

>>1744929
Is the Spirit God, or some other subsistence? If the Spirit is God, then he is clearly a distinct subsistence from the subsistence sending him (God the Father)

>>1744928
False. All it says is that God is at the very least 3 parts. God has many abilities, and to limit Him by defining Him is not as good as expediting Him for ourself.

>>1744933
It's evidence that the Spirit is a hypostasis distinct from the hypostasis sending him.

>>1744935
>three parts
No, three subsistences. God has no "parts", he is incorporeal, indivisible, and infinite.

>>1744919
The part about behaving as Muhammad aught IS Islam's theology. Many make the same mistake in thinking Islamic jurisprudence is simple legalism when it is heavily based on theological principles concerning prophethood, divine authority, abrogation, and sinfulness. And all of that is fairly absent in the very earliest sources about him. Al-Ghazali being a late scholarly figure has almost no bearing here besides showing that extensive debates on theology did in fact exist centuries after Muhammad, despite Islam's supposed lack of concern about it. And it would continue long after Al-Ghazali, precisely because other theologians were dismissive of his attempts to smooth over these subjects with Greek tools of logic.

>>1744935
God is God alone, and not part of some pagan piece of puzzle, where Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of God.

Daily reminder that historical Jesus is a ridiculous consensus born from the fact that most historians who study that era have religious bias.
Daily reminder that lack of objectivity like this is why STEM people bully the social sciences.

>>1744838
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHCeYSvazY4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQt1bCnDm4

>>1744940
God is infinate. For me to say parts is for you to say "subsistences". The parts are different actions of God acting through Himself.

>>1744945
God is God alone, but to rule it out with personal bias is not the key to understand the Trinity. God is still God alone through the Trinity.

>>1744934
No if. Just focus on God. The best person to understand the Trinity is a person by themselves with God. If you are Muslim and don't believe in the Trinity, that is okay. God is still effective as ever, even if people on earth argue about His power over the internet.

piss off OP you disgusting jew

>>1742298
Richard Dawkins is great at biology and fucking terrible at theology. He is advertised as otherwise and helped inspire a generation of the most biblically illiterate and overly pompous athiestic parrot-like "evangelists" who in turn did more damage to the athiest brand than the fucking soviets. There are reasons why you write within your field and be very cautious otherwise.

>>1744035
there isn't, though

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>>1742269
>most objective scholars agree
[scholarly citation needed]

>>1746158

Well that, and David Hume already did all the work for him

>>1742269
this is perhaps the worst b8 ive ever seen on this board, and that's saying something
kill yourself/10

>>1744085
>Nobody believes Christ created the universe.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
Colossians 1:16

>>1744933
>Pneumamachi heretics
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2
How can a power, force or emanation move or 'be upon' something?

>>1743942
It is the Douay-Rheims Bible

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/26-1.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay%E2%80%93Rheims_Bible

>>1746351
>Babylonianism
absolutely disgusting
The King James Bible is the inerrant word of God

>>1746353
fundie pls

>>1746366
Atheist pls

>>1746182
Yes there is, I have a degree in both.
Do you need me to explain the difference? Or are you just going to troll me?

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>>1746409
Is that you?
I hope you are well...
Peace be with you

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>>1742269
Daily reminder that most objective scholars (read: me) agree that the pope is closer to a member of a greek fertility cult than a "Catholic" (people who believe money buys forgiveness from sins). Using objective scholarship (read: shitposting prowess), jilling yourself off in the woods is truer to what the pope teaches than Catholicism is.

>implying Jesus was real

>>1746538
*tips fedora*

>>1742269
This is the fucking guy that said that Muhammed was the one who ended slavery in the Middle East but fails to mention that he began the African slave trade because the Quran prohibits only muslim slavery. How a person who claims to be a historian fails to mention this is beyond me. I'm a fucking historian and I take offense that fucking faggots like him go around pontificating lies that fit their own political agenda. Because that is what this piece of shit is, just a political actor of the anti-progressive establishment. I hope he gets his fucking genitals mutilated.

>>1748233
>Muhammed was the one who ended slavery in the Middle East but fails to mention that he began the African slave trade because the Quran prohibits only muslim slavery

These are both absurd statements.

>>1748296
>The African continent was bled of its human resources via all possible routes. Across the Sahara, through the Red Sea, from the Indian Ocean ports and across the Atlantic. At least ten centuries of slavery for the benefit of the Muslim countries (from the ninth to the nineteenth)....

>>1748698
Yes, but that doesn't mean the same thing as Muhammad beginning the African salve trade because of a later interpretation of the Quran.

>from the ninth to the ninetheenth
>ninth
As in two hundred years after Muhammad.

>>1748722
Perhaps I didn't express myself quite clearly, I have read my prior post and I can see where you can get the idea that there was no slavery before Muhammed in Africa. Of course Romans were taking slaves before Muhammed rose, but the introduction of the African Slave Trade as a well stablished and regular net of varying slave owners and traders from the Arabian peninsula to Subsaharan Africa and also including the center of Africa was built thanks to the rise of the Islamic Caliphates in north Africa.

>>1742310
i am now just realizing how much the kaaba looks like a vagina

>>1742269
>reza Aslan

kys

>>1748752
I'm debating your claim that this was Muhammad's doing, which to me is as erroneous as saying Muhammad ended slavery when neither are true. The Arab Slave Trade was something that developed separately in the same way the rule that only Muslims could not be enslaved did as a product of the 9th century.

>>1748779
Both the Quran and the hadith see slavery as being allowed, but only as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war could become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim. Muhammed took warring animistic tribes and basically told them that it was not ok to have muslim slaves under his teachings, the social and economic structure that slavery entails still was there so instead of using slaves from other tribes they had to tap into another source of slave labour, thus creating the african slave trade and in some cases taking even slaves from European countries such as Spain and Italy. Obviously Muhammed didn't create per se the African Slave Trade but his teachings helped created. My issue is that in a CNN interview Reza Azlan was comparing Muhammed to Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. saying that Muhammed was one of the earliest abolitionists which is a flat out lie. I just pointed out (quite poorly if I say so myself) how ironic this statement is being that the rise of Islam gave birth to a new age of slavery in Africa.

>>1748767
And pillar looks like a benis :DDD

>>1748752
>the introduction of the African Slave Trade as a well stablished and regular net of varying slave owners and traders from the Arabian peninsula to Subsaharan Africa and also including the center of Africa was built thanks to the rise of the Islamic Caliphates in north Africa.

Not really. The Saharan trade before the 16th century was minor, if it really existed as anything consistent in the first place. It's not until Sokoto that we get an actual caliphate set up that was directly plugged into the West African trade, and mostly for their own plantations. The Indian Ocean trade in Eastern Africa developed due to independent factors and not any form of Umayyad/Abbasid policy, and instead run by a new merchant class of southern Iraq plugging into a rising Swahili culture based out of what is modern day Kenya.

>>1748813
You're conflating "Muhammad's teachings" with Muhammad himself, which is again as big a mistake as equating any abolitionist views or effects centuries later to him. You're right that if Muhammad was a great liberator then the subsequent slave trade in the Middle East is one of the great ironies of history, but that's a different thing from saying Muhammad was a great slaver, effectively taking the opposite position of Reza Aslan by taking the same kinds of short cuts that create historical misconceptions like this.

>>1748864
I understand what you mean, but Muhammed did own slaves and he did not go out of his way at any point in his live to end slavery, only muslim slavery. If he was a great slaver or not I don't know but he did create the base for a series of caliphates that would use slavery and broaden slavery in other parts of the world where there was none.

>Not really. The Saharan trade before the 16th century was minor, if it really existed as anything consistent in the first place. It's not until Sokoto that we get an actual caliphate set up that was directly plugged into the West African trade, and mostly for their own plantations. The Indian Ocean trade in Eastern Africa developed due to independent factors and not any form of Umayyad/Abbasid policy, and instead run by a new merchant class of southern Iraq plugging into a rising Swahili culture based out of what is modern day Kenya.

An example that I think could serve as an counter argument for your point: Periodic Arab raiding expeditions were sent from Islamic Iberia to ravage the Christian Iberian kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. In a raid against Lisbon in 1189, for example, the Almohad caliph, Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur, took 3,000 female and child captives, while his governor of Córdoba, in a subsequent attack upon Silves in 1191, took 3,000 Christian slaves. The "Oriental" or "Arab" slave trade is sometimes called the "Islamic" slave trade but a religious imperative was not the driver of the slavery. However, if a non-Muslim population refuses to pay the jizya, that population is considered to be at war with the Muslim "ummah", and it becomes legal under Islamic law to take slaves from that non-Muslim population. There was a significant slave trade which followed two main routes in the Middle Ages: Overland routes across the Maghreb and Mashriq deserts (Trans-Saharan route) and Sea routes to the east of Africa through the Red Sea and Indian Ocean (Oriental route).

>>1748946
>I understand what you mean, but Muhammed did own slaves and he did not go out of his way at any point in his live to end slavery, only muslim slavery. If he was a great slaver or not I don't know but he did create the base for a series of caliphates that would use slavery and broaden slavery in other parts of the world where there was none.
You have this backwards actually. This is the timeline later Muslim slavers preferred of course, but it's most likely after the fact. The various tribes that settled across North Africa and the Near East took slaves, a lot of them, in their expansionist wars. After the collapse of central authority due to successive civil wars a series of border reaver cultures and a merchant middle class started aggregating their cultural legacy into what would become Islam in the 8th and 9th century. Muhammad did not create this, but was used ad hoc to justify it in the same way modern American gun lobbyists might justify themselves with references to the Founding Fathers when they most likely did not envision or ever plan for 21st century gun politics.

>An example that I think could serve as an counter argument for your point...

Spain is beyond our discussion about Africa, and as I've said the Trans-Saharan trade was a much later development. You are describing again the legal traditions and customs of Arab Muslim culture, but that Muhammad himself was its author is as tenuous as Reza Aslan's claims.

>>1749008
>but that Muhammad himself was its author is as tenuous as Reza Aslan's claims.

I guess you might be right there. I could have phrased it better and said that Muhammad did own slaves and his religious teachings would later become somewhat of an excuse to already existing slaver networks.

>>1742269
That is actually somewhat true, but using a book by fucking Reza Aslan of all people as the OP picture doomed your thread before it started.

It doesn't matter anyway, all desert faiths belong in the historical thrash bin.

>>1744868
Are you trying to imply Protestantism is any closer to Jesus?

>>1744961
>>1744940
Three hipostases you fucking barbarians.