Who was Rome's greatest general, and why was it Scipio Africanus?

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>>1729918
Dicks out for Hannibal

That's not Gaius Marius.

That's not Julius Caesar.

Thats not Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus.

>>1729918
That's not Heraclius

>>1731579
Lol chill out. Scipio was way better than caesar

>>1729947
>>1731614
>>1731654
Literally who?

Belisarius

>>1732267
Not Roman.

>>1732400
He was a citizen of the Eastern Roman Empire, as established by the Roman emperor Theodosius.

Belisarius was Roman.

>>1732426
How many times do we have to establish that the only thing Roman about the Byzantine empire was its name? Are all the holy roman emperors roman too?

>>1732426
What did he do that was so impressive anyway?

>best roman general
>anyone from the early empire/republic
No. The entire point of the Roman army was that it could fight a battle without the general by a core of skilled officers and veteran soldiers. Jerking over some general completely misses the point. Going by this logic, I'd say Alexios Philanthropinos

>>1732267
Belisarius was good. He got lucky in Africa, but his other accomplishments indicate a keen military mind.

>>1732400
Lolwhat? Even if you're one of those retarded "ASDFJHURDRUD GREEK SPEAKERS CAN'T BE ROMAN!!1!" you should consider Belisarius a Roman, as he spoke Latin.

>>1732466
Battle of Dara is in my opinion his greatest achievement, but the Gothic war shows his great ability as not just a tactician but as a man who understands logistics and how to operate inside hostile enemy territory with low supplies

How good was Agrippa?

>>1732456
>How many times do we have to establish
You haven't established anything. In fact most people on /his/ admit that the Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire. The people who lived in the empire considered themselves Roman, they followed roman law and they were continuous citizens of Rome. It was a continuous government from when the empire was split, to the fall in 1453

>Roman about the Byzantine empire was its name
Lie.
>Are all the holy roman emperors roman too?
No. None of the people who lived in the Holy Roman Empire considered themselves Roman. They were Franks, Italians, Germans etc. The only identity the Byzantines had was "Roman". They weren't just wearing a suit.

The fact that you think Justinian and Belisarius weren't Roman shows your massive illiteracy. Even the strongest krautboos and anti-Byzantines admit that the Empire under Justinian was the Roman Empire. In fact, Justinian's reign is usually considered to be the end of the Roman Empire by those kind of people.

>>1732456
How many times do we need to explain that position is fucking stupid.

The Holy Roman empire was in no way roman. It has zero relation to the roman empire. That it was called the Holy Roman Empire had nothing to do with the Roman empire.

The Eastern Roman Empire was literally half of the roman empire. It's the exact same established government that was there before the West fell. They were called the Roman empire by themselves and by everybody else around them.

"Byzantine" is just a term used by historians to refer to the empire in a time frame in which the Western Roman Empire no longer existed.

>>1732456
>this meme again

>>1732477
What made the battle of Dara so impressive in your opinion

Majorian.

>>1732488
Excellent. One of the best in Rome's history for sure.

>>1731614
Pompey got rekt by Sertorius and Caesar. And Sertorius spooked him so badly he refused to ever fight a battle without superior numbers afterwards. How could he be the greatest anything?
Pompey was a good general but all in all an accolades thief, undeserving of being mentioned in the same breath as the greatest roman generals.

>>1732488
The only reason Augustus made it to see his 30th birthday.
A fucking beast both as a general and as an admiral.

>>1732856
Get rekt he had Caesar beatin but the troops and the other leaders wanted a fight. Even Caesar knew he was done literally only chance was if they forced Pompey to do what he didnt want to. He also probably did more to expand the empire than anyone else snd crushed the pirate problem that was killing Rome slowly.

>>1732877
>he couldn't control the troops
Wow what a general.
>he added a couple provinces after Lucullus steamrolled the previous rulers
Thief.
>he solved the pirate problem (nevermind that Augustus had to do it again 20 years later)
Oh goody, he's as good as Antonius Orator.

>>1732856
Not to mention the dude wanted a triumph every time he wiped his ass.

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>>1732898
Oh lawd here we go. Caesar got btfo and Sertorius was a traitor drunk who won a couple battles then got taken out back and shot by Pompey. Take your traitor memes somewhere else. We will stay loyal to Rome in this thread.

>>1732925
>Caesar got BTFO (although he actually rekt Pompey while outnumbered)
>Sertorius was just a drunk (who still managed to absolutely rek Pompey twice, whereas a mere Metellus Pius managed to get the better of him)
You're not helping your case here. Also top fucking kek at considering Gnaeus "special commission" Pompey as an example of republican loyalty. He was so openly defiant of laws and the constitution he made Sulla look like Cato.

>>1732918
To be fair that's par for the course talking of roman generals. When Caesar actually refused his triumph to stand as consul people kept disbelieving it until they actually saw a togate Caesar within the pomerium.

>>1732466
BTFO of the Sassanids, Vandals, Goths, Bulgars, and put down the Nika riots that nearly deposed
Justinian.

>>1733862
So basically nothing?

Wut about Crassus?

>>1734212
what a newfag crassus ain't shit

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>>1734216

>>1734203
0/10

>>1734216
>>1734220

Was literally just a rich bitch who couldn't get his shit together with pompey and fucked everything over for caesar

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AETIUS
E
T
I
U
S

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>>1734225
His dying was the best thing he could have done for Caesar

>>1734236
after what surena did to him at the battle of carrhae I'm sure he would agree with you

>>1734243

At least Crassus would have ate his best pal's butt

>>1734230
Probably the best Roman diplomat of all time but I'm not sure about his skills as a general

>>1729918
That's not Marius or Agrippa you fucking plebiscite faggot

It's Fabius Maximus

>>1734230
My nigga. The last great general of West Rome. The empire was basically doomed by then, but if anybody had the capability to pull it back from the brink, it was Flavius Aetius.

>>1732456
>How many times do we have to establish that the only thing Roman about the Byzantine empire was its name?
This only applies to the Holy Roman Empire.
>Are all the holy roman emperors roman too?
The Holy Roman Empire did not have an unbroken line of administrative control from the Roman Empire like the Eastern Roman Empire has. The Eastern Roman Empire was also the bigger brother of the two administrative halves once Constantine moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople (the "official" start of the Byzantine Empire).

The use of Greek as the official administrative language of the empire did not even happen until Emperor Heraclius. His reign was from 610 to 641 AD and his name was Flavius Heraclius Augustus, a Latin name.

The Western empire dissolved in 476 AD.

Justinian the Great (527-565 AD) fucking controlled Rome (and Italy) during his reign. And many of his successors did so as well.

In all honesty, the Byzantine Empire was the Roman Empire. It was called the Roman Empire during its existence and it was only called the Byzantine Empire 100 years after it fell by a North German guy during the Renaissance from the HRE. Obviously there's a fucking bullshit agenda why he called the Roman Empire "byzantine" and it's not because he's accurate.

>>1734408
>Justinian the Great
>the Great
>Great

>>1734408
WRE ended in 480 AD, not 476 AD. Also Heraclius was the one who officially instated Greek as the official language of the Eastern ***Roman*** Empire, Justinian was in all liklihood the last native Latin speaking Emperor in the Eastern half.

>>1734581
September 476 was the end of the WRE. 480 is simply the assassination of an exiled emperor that had no empire to rule.
>Heraclius was the one who officially instated Greek as the official language
Why do you think I fucking put Heraclius' reign up? And his name was still Latin. He just spoke Greek, like Scipio Africanus (who loved the Greek language) and many other Romans who were part of the elite and actually was formally taught. Greek was the literary language of Romans from back in the days of the Republic.
>native
A Roman from Gaul is as Roman as a Roman from Anatolia as a Roman from Illyria. The Roman Empire was literally the United States of America before the USA started up. Justinian was born in Macedon ffs.

>>1734581
Justinian's dad was of Illyrian peasant stock.

>>1734581
The capital of the Western Roman Empire was not Rome, but Ravenna from 402 AD until its end (the capital of the entire empire was moved from Rome to Constantinople in 330 AD). The Eastern Roman Empire controlled Rome after the end of the WRE for several emperors' reigns.

>>1734581
>Also Heraclius was the one who officially instated Greek as the official language
This is actually a common misconception. First of all:

1.the Roman Empire did not have an official language, much like for example the United States. A majority spoke some language, but there never was a de jure official language.
2. Greekification was started by Justinian, when he released Novellae Constitutiones, which was written entirely in Greek.

>>1734641
He spoke native Latin.
>>1734632
No, there is no unified consensus on this. Some put the explusion and abdication of Augustulus, others ocnsider Nepos' assassination. Try again.

>>1734647
The capital was moved as and when it was needed. At later points it was also Mediolanium, no one cares.

>>1729918
>Africanus

HOL UP

>>1734641
Justinian's family were Roman colonists in Illyria.

>>1734632
>476 AD
480 AD*

>>1734680
>At later points it was also Mediolanum, no one cares.
From 286 AD until it went to Ravenna.
The point is, being the Roman Empire has nothing to do with Rome being the imperial capital. The WRE did not have Rome as its capital for almost two centuries. That should not count against the ERE either.
The WRE also lost control of Rome, but the ERE also had control of Rome for several emperors.
Speaking Latin or Greek was done in the Roman Empire from its founding by its ruling aristocrats. Greek primacy as the administrative language of the empire does not actually become official until Heraclius.
>no unified consensus
>B-b-but my choice is the real one.
476 AD was still the dissolution of the WRE. A powerless emperor with no empire to control is basically the equivalent of a modern era monarch that has claims to a defunct kingdom today. If your kingdom doesn't exist and you don't even really have an army, you are no king.

>>1734581
The Holy Roman Empire was not Roman.
The Eastern Roman Empire was Roman. It was simply known as the Roman Empire during its existence. Its people called themselves as Romans. Their enemies called them Romans.

>>1734581
Why do you consider the Eastern Roman Empire as not Roman? Because many things that people try to disqualify it as Roman, you can apply to the Western Roman Empire as well, and in some cases to Rome before division.

Scipio defeated an already tired and old Hannibal. Ceasar conquered the nightmare hellforests of Gaul and when he got bored of winning battles he cucked the whole republic to do his bidding

>>1732456
look if you wanna be stupid, fine, just do so quitely

That's not Belisarius

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>>1732400
>Belisarius
>not Roman

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>>1734230
>>1734392
>tfw Valentinian III destroyed Rome with one swing of his sword

>>1735967
Was there anything in particular that made Valentinian accuse Aetius of depravity or did he just want him out of the way?

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>not choosing based Belisarius

>>1734392
>>1735967
majorian, silly plebs

>>1732267
>>1735944
>>1736031
The correct answer.

Germanicus

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>>1729918
>Rome's greatest general
>not Marius
Even Scipio realized his legacy was going to be overshadowed by his successor.

Belisarius was awesome, but he also fucked up some.

>>1736742
Didn't his legacy include undermining the republic and shit?

Flavius Stilicho

Flavius Stilicho

>>1737454
how?

>>1737779
Must be because the guy did lose some important battles.

>>1737492
He never undermined the republic, it was Sulla who did that.

>>1739664
Go read about his 7th consulship again, anon.

>>1737492
That doesn't really take anything away from his quality as a general tho.

>>1739815
He was legally elected and was proven by prophecy that he'd receive the seventh consulship.