gunpowder-less siege engines

>>1715224

Before gunpowder, sieges of castles could last years.

>>1715234
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(1099)
>implying after gunpowder things changed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

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>>1715224
Quite.
Torsion artillery (the most common of the ancient world) did massive damage on soldiers, and helped cover the advance of the siege machines (rams, ramps, ladders).
They usually did not break walls, but the powerful pic related probably could.

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>>1716646
That's a ballista, by the way.
Catapults were smaller and more frequent. Pic related.

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>>1715224

>>1716646
Though they made such siege machines on site, they sometimes brought the actual stones they fired because hard stones were key to breaking down walls.

>>1716679
siege on, young trebber.

>>1716679
Siege on, young trebber

>>1716679
siege on, young trebber

Why weren't large ballistic siege engines necessary in East Asia?

>>1716679

Siege on, young trebber

>>1716679
siege on, young trebber

>>1718668
Cause China walled themselves in, not others out.

>>1718768
t. Cletus

>>1715387
>Comparing a siege of a medieval city of a few ten thousands to one of a modern city of millions

Don't be like No. 1715387

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>>1718668
They did have large ballistic siege engines. The niggers invented the trebuchet, (albeit not the counterweight one, Persians invented that after being introduced the treb from China) for starters.

I mean, if anything, Classical Europe was the one without the large ballistic siege engines compared to contemporaneous China at the time. While hugeass fuck Lithoboloi existed, these were rarities, and the usual siege engine in the west was a regular ass stone/arrow projector, and the onager, which is the size of a large table. There's only so much you can throw lethally with a torsion catapult.

Whereass the early Chink trebuchets, not only are they cheap as fuck (i.e. you dont have to kill shitloads of cows for torsion sinews) you can throw just about anything just by adding more guys pulling on the rope.

>>1716679
Siege on, young Trebber

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>>1716679
Nothing compared mongol counter-weight trebuchets,

500 meters, 300 kg

Used against the Song Dynasty

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>>1716679
Siege on, young Trebber

>>1719048
This seems too heavy or too far. Source ?

>>1716679
>siege on, young trebber.

>>1716646
>the most common of the ancient world
Wasn't it mostly a roman thing?

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>>1719296
Nope.jpg.

Torsion has been a thing in the Greek Classical World.

The only new thing the Romans added was the Onager, which is basically an attempt to save production costs (i.e. the Onager only needed one sinew torsion. Not two like the Lithoboloi).

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>>1719338
No no no, the Romans considerably changed the torsion artillery.
- Replaced the wooden frame with a metal frame
- Which allowed catapults to have inswinging arms, like the ballista, increasing its power
- They added a cart, making the carroballistae, which were basically mobile artillery
- They also improved the portative artillery, with the cheiroballista, which was a complex a powerful crossbow-like weapon

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>>1719571
This is a pretty good recreation of a carroballista

>>1719338
Also, it seems the onager existed already in greek times, but was probably rarely used. Apollodorus Damascus mentions it, and Philo of Byzantium, if I am not mistaken

>>1716679
Siege on, young trebbler

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>>1719048
Thats the older Chinese design.

This is the real mongol counter-weight trebuchet designed by the Muslims (two iraqis) under the service of one of the general of Halagu

>>1719578

are there any records of when this was used?

>>1716679
Siege on, young trebber

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>>1721419
Yes, mainly two.
The carroballistae appear five times one the Column of Trajan, pic related.

And Vegetius mentions them quite often while describing the imperial legion, for example :

Nam per singulas centurias singulas carroballistas habere consueuit, quibus muli ad trahendum et singula contubernia ad armandum uel dirigendum, hoc est undecim homines, deputantur. [ . . . ] In una autem legione quinquaginta quinque carroballistae esse solent

That's something like "One must give a carroballista to every centuria, and mules with them, which had to pull them. Also a contubernium, which is eleven men, who had to serve it and drive it. Thus there was 55 carroballistae in a legion.
(Veg. Mil. 2.25)

>>1721419
>>1721834
Oh, you meant "when" !
It probably appeared a little before the dacian wars (101 - 106 CE) (attested by the column of trajan), and were used for centuries after, maybe until the end of the fourth century (it seems a carroballista is depicted in the De Rebus Bellicis, and archaeology proves such technology still existed at that times - see the orsova or gornea ballista)

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Siege on, young trebber.

>>1721838

Thanks

I would have figure something like highly mobile artillery would be make more of an impact, imagine these things in the battle of gaugamela or others, they would have made a huge difference.

It's almost like something worth having elephants for, an ancient times' tank

>>1716679
Siege on, young trebber