Why is Satan the reasonable one?

>>1706158
The symbol of the fallen angel is that of pride

>>1706165
So?

>>1706173
Trusting reason over faith in God is devil's work.

>>1706158
he's just trying to help liberate us from the Demiurge

>>1706177
What is the point of reason then?

>>1706181
There is no point other than to distrust God.

>>1706182
Then why did God endow man with reason?

>>1706189
So he can burn him

You have to question what is close to rational about a figure who constantly rebels against an omnipotent and omniscient force. Milton's Satan is a man who unceasingly attempts to cut a stone with a sponge. His entire character is centered around a tenacity and conviction that's taken to an extreme of pathological irrationality.

It's easy to be charmed by his characterization because that's precisely how Milton intended to write him. However, when you step back and place the entire logic of his struggle against any degree of analysis, it's a Sisyphean absurdity. Milton's Satan is a exceptional rhetorician, not a well-reasoned thinker.

>>1706189
He didn't, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge without his permission.

>>1706189
He didn't. Satan tempted and man faithfully followed.

God gave man faith. Satan used that faith to give man reason.

>>1706203
What chapter of Naruto is that?

>>1706203
>Satan used that faith to give man reason.
So god got btfo in the most important way to satan?

>>1706201
>>1706203
>don't give man reason
>tell him not to eat fruit
>wonder why man ate fruit

No, God is the reasonable one, Satan is the irrational one. but they still both need each other

>>1706173
The motif of the fallen angel/star, satan and the serpent in the Garden of Eden are three different things

>>1706224
This is a fair point.
If they had reason, and you know proof of god standing literally in front of them.
They probably wouldn't have eaten the fruit.

>>1706234
Who is the serpent?

>>1706158
>be Angel, "knowing the mind of God"
>know that rebelling against God is impossible and would lead to unending suffering
>do it anyway
>reasonable

>>1706248
So why does he do it?

>>1706259
God cashed in a favor.

>>1706244
Literally just a snake

>>1706265
but why was he so evil

>>1706265
Did God create it too?

>>1706182
>>1706201
>>1706203

>Protestant "theology"

"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart the desire to know the truth — in a word, to know himself — so that by knowing and loving God, men and women can come to the fullness of the truth about themselves" -St. John Paul the Great

>>1706269
>Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made (Genesis 3:1)
The trickster is one of the oldest motifs in mythology, in fact the passage is also doubles as a origin story for why snakes have to crawl

>>1706288
>>1706265
But this is a discussion about the serpent's place specifically in Milton's narrative, wherein it's explicit that the serpent is an incarnation of Satan.

>>1706304
In that case this thread belongs to /lit/

>>1706315
Well, on second thought, I suppose it's not a discussion strictly of Milton's Satan. But really, there's not a lot of data in the actual Biblical narrative with which to parse any kind of tangible motivation or personality for Satan. Certainly not enough to say whether or not he's "reasonable." A lot of our understanding of Satan's reasoning and character comes from Paradise Lost more than it does the Bible, and in the latter he's seemingly just a force that arbitrarily comes and goes.

>>1706203

god sounds like a fuckwit

>>1706209
>Milton's Satan
lol

>>1706177
The point is that God's power is unquestionable. If you question it, you're in league with Satan. Go figure.

>>1706229
What is this some yin yang shit?

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>>1706446

No, this is actually verified by modern psychology

Read this

>>1706461
I mean I can understand how philosophically, they need for one another to exist. I suppose I just can't empathize with people who believe in both. They're interesting in terms of history and general tales, but besides that it's all hypothetical to me.

>>1706259

Edgemaster of all ages? Or, maybe it's just a fairytale?

>>1706158
>be satan
>god creates humans
>you have to bow to my creation
>lol nope fuck off

How is it reasonable to go against the all powerful creator of everything.

>>1706275
The snake is God like everything else. Life is literally one big masturbation session by God.

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>>1706158
Because the entire good/evil Christian distinction is a slave's premise. Being evil is totally cool.

He isn't, though. He's full of pride and envy.

>>1706597
All people are, Christians just repress it and become weird monstrosities.

>>1706597
>reveling in your greatness is bad
>burning jealousy as fuel for your motivation is bad

How can anyone live like this

>>1707011
Envy is never wishing to have what another has, it's wishing to have the idea of what another haves. It's the desire for something that does not exist.

>>1706248
the absolute madman

>>1706557
would you want to be a slave to humanity?

humans are fucking awful m8

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>>1706281
>using reasons sends you to hell
This thread is why Protestants have autism
good quote

>>1706189
Because reason is a good thing and God's creation.

Don't listen to the Gnosticish /x/ retards above.

>>1706569
not just masturbation, apparently he impregnated a girl like 2000 years ago

>>1706177
People who think like this are the reason why this cockroach-like religion still exists and has mutated every time its idiocy has been defeated by decent thinking. Whether you're serious or not, pat yourself on the back.

>>1707300
God is dead and reason is the murder weapon.

>>1707338
I hate that statement because what it really means is RELIGION is dead.

Everything has reason.

Religion is not dead, the deadness of religion is dead.

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>>1706158
he's not he was jealous over god giving adam the right to rule over the earth

adam and eve were already like god because god made them in his image eating the fruit took away their immortality and gave them the knowledge of sin(death)

>>1707370
nietception?

>>1707315
>pat yourself on the back

I can't do that.

>>1707764
God has a reason to action, and Satan is still a creation of God, and also has reason. Both are within their own reasoning. God do what He do, and Satan do what he do, because they both faculty with reason to do what they do.

The art of religion is masked by meanings of religion. True religion is a living Spirit in the practices of each person who involves self with God.

>>1706224
>>1706235
>>1706224
>>1706235

It has been confirmed sandniggerianity is a LIE

>>1707746
Nice mythology there m8!

>>1707746
>>1706179
>>1706201
>>1706199
>>1706248
>>1706557

Why do people think the talking snake is Satan.

>>1707939
What was it? A talking fucking snake?

>>1707952
Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text.
Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2–3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented.

>>1707952
It was a Babylonian spook

>>1706158
the entire point is that human reasoning is incomplete, and is not a substitute for morality

whether I ultimately agree with all of the post-facto conclusions of this or not, it's a crucial breakthrough to have made, epistemologically

>>1707979
do you happen to know the common theological approach to this? would they deny that the concept of the devil hadn't yet been invented?

>>1707869
underrated post

sandniggerianity

>>1706234
Oooh, a Reverse Trinity

>>1707939
Because if you accept all the other New Testament retcons, why stop short at Revelation identifying Satan with "the ancient serpent who decieves the whole world"?

>>1708265
that's refering to Leviathan in Isaiah

>>1706177
>mantaining ignorance is better than expanding your knowledge
Religion everybody

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>>1710533
>Hah, what petty fools...
>Now if only I could meet a member of this so called "clergy.."
>I'd make him regret ever challenging the likes of ME!!

From an ancient patriarchal model, rebellion and disobedience of authority is the cardinal sin.

In a more enlightened individualistic age, we value challenging authority and striving for independence.

>>1710533
>knowing evil is expanding

The entire concept of evil is regressive. Even on the sub atomic level, the only way for things to form matter is for them to be in accord, not discord.

God knew man would fall. But we're literally surrounded by things we never made. Everything is supplied to us, even the ideals we grasp onto are no more than already formed concepts that we either choose to apply or not apply. The same way we woke up on a earth, a rock, that was already made for us, so have the paths already been paved, which we'll call ideals, they to were pre-made. Man didn't create "good," he can simply choose it as it's a concept that already exists to be chosen. It comes with physical benefits and everything, its the very thing that keeps the universe in accord. Because again, evil creates discord. That should tell you it's value on the broadest of scales. But yeah, we can build our cute little sand castles out of concrete and what have you, but all that, when stacked up to every created thing, yeah...we'll all bow to father of it all at some point.

Now this only offends the people who want everything to be a surprise though...which I don't think the creator of all things can run out surprises.

>>1706177
If you were to reject reason you would cease to be a moral agent. A man with no reason would endlessly pursue any whim or inclination which entered his head.
Thankfully no one may fully surrender their reason, unless they were literally lobotomized.
Even the most devout religious fanatic inadvertently uses his capacity to reason to make life decisions.
In this sense religion is a warped perception, reasoning with false premises to reach false conclusions. But you reason nonetheless.

>>1710743
This is like a massive blanket statement and kind of baseless accusation.

For one, people will use reason to exercise the immoral, plus "religion is a warped perception" is a pretty vague statement.

>>1710764
Forgive me for blanket statements and baseless accusations, I thought this was a Religion thread.

>>1710779
Ok anon.

According to the Quran, Satan was the only angel to not bend in front of Adam, saying that one should only submiss themselves to God

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So, God made Satan knowing Satan would revolt and take billions of souls with him to Hell.

Also God made the word only available to people born in the Middle East at the time and then later Roman provinces, if you were born in North America, Asia, and Australia at the time, well you're fucked.

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>>1711935

I mean, if God wanted everyone to hear his message, why didn't he give Jesus brothers and send them to China? Oh wait, I guess he did and his brother killed millions of Chinese.

>>1710575
>I dont have an argument so ill make fun of your taste in fashion

>>1710620
'Good' and 'evil' aren't real things anon. Evil doesn't create anything, its not that sort of concept.

>>1711915
>According to the Quran
The Koran is Satan's word itself. He can, and has, taken the form of Angels and messengers many times before.

>>1706158
Have you actually read Paradise Lost?

Or rather, have you read it at face value?

>>1711978
Anon, that argument of 12 year olds doesn't hold any weight.

There' a discernible, tangible, difference between good and evil. So much so that our physical bodies and the emotional spectrum react to each, further emphasizing the reality of the ideals and concepts. Pretending like the contrast doesn't exist is the beginning of pseudo intelligence fwiw.

Don't get me wrong, anyone can put their head in the sand and pretend not to see anything, but oppression creates conflict and charity creates gratefulness. These are direct responses to points of friction to determine one thing from another.

>>1706281
John Paul the Pedo

>>1706158

reminder that satan's greatest trick is pretending to be the god. "god" at abrahamic books are moloch, pretending to be a good lad while you keep sacrifing your stuff and being a good goy. prophets are prohpets of him and "satan" is simply a non existant controlled opposition.

>>1712620
>slave morality

>>1712974
A slave is required to do things that are errand in nature anon. Choosing good is desirable for obvious reasons.

Now trying to erase the line that separates the two just implies that you could potentially be a hindrance to either. Whether you go into a group of thieves or murders and attempt to speak against them and what they do, you'll invite assault. Or if you enter a group of good men and speak evil, you'll be at their mercy as well.

Now if you're speaking some sort of doctrine of a lifeless statue, that you focus on neither good or evil, then you'll just be the equivalent of a stone on the ground. Which would be pseudo intelligent, I mean...while you're thinking of nothing, you have a world who's stealing from each other, murdering each other, while others are doing the opposite and helping each other...all of which are physical proof of the concepts and ideals you say don't exist.

>>1713198
>he doesn't know what slave morality means

>>1713202
Why would I?

On what grounds did Nitch basically attempt to give new definitions to good and evil? He suffered a mental break down didn't he? Basically he has a self imposed definition of a difference between "good and evil" vs "good and bad"....lol okay...

Now I cant take that seriously. For one he's creating more categories instead of reducing his math. He basically discovered a trend in what people find as "bad" compared to what Christians identify as "bad."

One more lenient then the other, something that the word of God already pointed out long ago. What's found and labeled as evil/bad by God, is broader than what man wants to identify as evil/bad.

Sorry, but this isn't new anon. Sounds like Nitch just observed and discerned the lack of conviction versus what is taught in that book.

>>1706158
Lucifer represents free will. He moved out of god's basement and now has to live with his own choices, good or bad. He's reasonable because he relates to our plight.

People interpret Milton's God as a tyrant when reading through a modern lens but God himself isn't a villain in the book. Any time somebody tries to cram an omnipotent character into a narrative, nothing they do seems logical to the reader given that the character is presumably capable of fixing any problem effortlessly. So we end up seeing God as an irrational fuck while Satan is actually relatable.

The mindset Milton was writing in was that God truly was infallible, so whether or not we agree with his decision-making is irrelevant. Satan openly admits in the work that he will spoil mankind's happiness just to satisfy his urge to profane God. From any standpoint he is the villain.

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>>1713305
satan is (((relatable))) because he's a total phony he acts all hard in front of his flunkies but then throws hisself pity parties behind closed doors nigga bitchmade af to be honest with you family

>>1712448
Then why would the quran which according to you comes from satan himself constantly remind you that satan is evil and that you should never follow him ?

>>1713282
>reasonable

He's the embodiment of sin. Pride, jealousy, envy, hate, murder, lying, all of it...And you think he would be reasonable? Notice how the scripture states that it's possible to be subject to torment from the devil and his demons if we follow them. We're the ones that they unleash their hate on if we follow them. They're jealousy and envy, will be pointed at us. According to the scripture always has been.

Also free will between good and evil isn't the same as free will between chicken or steak for dinner. Just throwing that out there.

>>1713273
This entire explanation ignores the fact that none of it would even be possible if Satan hadn't been created in the first place, if the garden hadn't been engineered to produce the fall, if angels could be redeemed, etc.

It's like blaming Judas for the death of Jesus. Sure, he did the actual kissing, but why did God decide to create him with a weakness for silver and handpick him as an apostle to know Jesus' whereabouts at all times?

>>1706199
Interesting that unceasingly cutting any stone with a sponge will eventually erode the stone.

>>1707313
lel. But it was anal, cuz she still got the hymen.

>>1708326
Which refers to?

And how can a text in Genesis refer to a text that didn't exist?

>>1710620
So men in truth cannot create anything, not even original thoughts. We can but rearrange.

>>1711915
And Idriss was right.

>>1711935
That meme. Priceless

>>1713453
You appear not to have read The Gospel of Judas, where he says that, since Jesus needed to be betrayed and crucfied, Jesus selected him to do it.

>>1713532
I'm aware of it, but it's not a mainstream position held by the majority of Christians.

>>1706165
> the light bringer, who enlight mankind with knowledge about it's own nature
> knowing the punishiment by difying god, he literally sacrifices himself for our own sake

You better keep in mind who is the real bad guy, dude.

>>1713509
I assume you mean Iblis. Idris is the quranic name for Enoch.

Git gud.

>>1711915
Iblis and Adam, in Quranic interpretation, are seen as two sides of the same coin. Both first amongst their creation (Iblis of the djinn, Adam of man) and both sinned before God. How they dealt with their disobedience was different, though. Iblis, when his disobedience was brought to attention, blamed others. He pointed out his own superiority and showed pride.
Adam, though his sin was justified, became humble and sought for ways to be forgiven. This is when God taught Adam how to ask for forgiveness (arguably the birth of religion) after which he was sent out into the Earth.

Iblis, who then became a shaitaan, didn't disobey out of religious zeal. He clearly, by his own admission, disobeyed out of pride.