Are jews an ethnic group or a religious group?

>>1682575
Both. There are secular Jews who still identify as Jewish even though they are physically European.

Both. Even as a religion, Judaism has always been mostly ethnicity-based. Centuries of living among other cultures and maintaining that identity also helped to solidify that ethnic identity.

>>1682625
shouldn't ethnic jews be much darker?

>>1682575

yes.

the notion that there's a hard and fast line between an ethnicity and a religion is something that Christainity seems to have invented. A lot of belief systems prior to that just don't have that. Converting and joining the tribe are the same thing.

>>1682575
Religious, there are black jews, white jews and indian jews. But there are also ethnic groups who are primarily jewish like the ashkenazi and beta israel

>>1682673
An ethnic Jew is any Jewish person who did not convert the religion, not just somebody who is 100% Israelite. Most ethnic Jews in Europe and America have an enormous amount of European ancestry.

They are an ethnic group that still follows an ethnic religion, which is odd.

FWIW, the official body in Israel that determines Jewishness considers it an ethnicity.

>>1682575
Religious group primarily. But since Judaism does not generally accept converts (only the more modern relaxed reformed sects do, and even then converts are often not accepted by more traditional sects), and because Jews are also typically endogamous (mostly only marry each other) they do essentially qualify as an ethnic group too.

It's only in the last 100 years or so that Jews have begun to intermarry with the wider population. So some blend in, obviously. Most are still fairly inbred, a phenomenon which still exists even in Israel to some extent (based on lineages of groups that followed certain prayer methods, or rabbis, etc)

>>1682673
"Ethnic" is simply a word that is used to compare majority/minority groups. That's really all it means. The Han Chinese for example are not really 'ethnic' in China (despite usage of the word), but there are 'ethnic Chinese' living in Malaysia or Jamaica, for example.

>>1682950

> (only the more modern relaxed reformed sects do, and even then converts are often not accepted by more traditional sects)

That's completely untrue.

What you get is that say, an Orthodox community won't accept a conversion done by a non-Orthodox rabbi, but there are 0 denominations of Judaism that don't accept converts. Hell, Ruth is pretty much all about "be nice to converts".

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>>1682575
Both and neither.

They are both. Traditionally Judaism was an ethnic religion only practiced by the Hebrews/Israelites because it is intimately tied to their cultural history, and this is one of the reasons why they came into conflict with virtually every tribe and nation they encountered. Because outsiders couldn't really adopt their religion since it was about how the Hebrew's ancestors made a covenant with God to make them the chosen people. If you're not part of that covenant then it's not really relevant to you.

In fact one of the major reasons Christianity split from Judaism proper rather than remaining a sect is because the leaders of early Christianity wanted it to be as inclusive as possible, so that anyone could follow Christ without any of that Old Testament covenant shit.

>or
A wrong question. Ethnoreligious.

>>1682985
Judaism itself does not proselytize and generally discourages converts.

Ruth first of all, a slave, was a 'convert' herself, so of course she would say that. But it's sort of ridiculous, because that's referring to an ancient time period where you 'converted' by living among the Israelites and doing as they do. What we'd today call a Jewish religion wouldn't have been understood as such back then.

Judaism is really just a bunch of cultural practices by a desert tribe codified over a long period of time that has become a religion. Hinduism and Shintoism are similar in this regard.

Coming back the point: It is very difficult up to the point of impossible to convert to most branches of Judaism. Yea, Orthodox won't accept reform Jew converts unless they convert them -- which they won't do in 95% of cases anyway. marriage to another Orthodox is about the only reason, and only then after extensive study and agreement by other rabbis that the intent is genuine and the person will live seriously and strictly as an Orthodox Jew (typically a female convert, as Jewish women are for pure good Jewish boys). For Orthodox, this comes with a bunch of conditions as gentile converts and their offspring (for eternity, btw) are officially considered different. Even Reform Jews won't take just anyone at the drop of a hat.

They're the chosen people you know. If it were that easy to became a 'chosen' people, it would be kind of meaningless, wouldn't it?

>>1683102
>Coming back the point: It is very difficult up to the point of impossible to convert to most branches of Judaism.


Not really, no. It's a long process, and it it involves some study, but it's nothing that's out side the reach of anyone who is dedicated to it.

>Yea, Orthodox won't accept reform Jew converts unless they convert them -- which they won't do in 95% of cases anyway.

I've never noticed a problem, and as a convert myself, I think I would.

>marriage to another Orthodox is about the only reason,

No, those are invalid. I mean it's done, and it's impossible to fully stop, but someone who converts primarily to marry someone who is already Jewish is cause to disqualify their conversion, they're not doing it to do it, they're doing it to get in the pants of so and so.

>(typically a female convert, as Jewish women are for pure good Jewish boys).

Ha!

>For Orthodox, this comes with a bunch of conditions as gentile converts and their offspring (for eternity, btw) are officially considered different.

Not really, unless you count tribal affiliation, which you wouldn't have as you wouldn't be from one of the 13 tribes. Unless you want to be a farmer in Israel though, it doesn't count for anything really.

>>1683123
Where do you live?

>>1683129

You'll forgive me if I don't want to lay that out precisely, but in New York state.

>>1682597
>physically european
>Jews

>>1682575
Both

>>1682575
Ethnicity/culture and religion are synonymous for Jews meaning atheist Jew who still practices Jewish culture is also religious while a Jew who doesn't practices customs and rites can't technically be considered Jewish

>>1683138
In the US though, that's what I figured. Try that shit in Israel and see what happens.

And what sort of congregation is it?

>>1683214

>In the US though, that's what I figured. Try that shit in Israel and see what happens.

I've visited Israel more than once, and I've never had a problem. Granted, I didn't try to marry any local girls, but Haredi aside, I don't think there's any real problems.

>And what sort of congregation is it?

An extremely frum orthodox, (non-Hasidic) one.

Honestly, and I'm working from conjecture here, but I do think a lot of the confusion comes because people conflate Hasidim with "orthodoxy", in a way that isn't really accurate.

>>1682575
They're both.
You can be a Jewish gentile and an Atheistic Jew.

>>1682575
They are a sickly band of sociopathic parasites. They only have a "religion" to maintain credibility.

They are ethnoreligious as a result of endogamy they are a breed and creed.

>>1682575
>Ethnoreligious
An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group whose members are also unified by a common religious background. Ethnoreligious communities define their ethnic identity neither by ancestral heritage nor simply by religious affiliation but often through a combination of both.

>>1683353
Then why do they claim to be semites?

>>1682575
They consider themselves a nation and that's the cleanest way of looking at it. Yes you can earn citizenship, but the majority of them were born in. And they have a culture and genetic history all their own.

Religion

There are Ethiopion Jews and there are Christian Jews.

Jews are not a race. The Jews you see today from Europe are descendants of the Khazar empire. They only converted to Judaism to avoid persecution and that prevented them from being completely annihilated by the Mongols.

The Jews today are imposter. They speak Yiddish which makes it seem as if they're speaking Hebrew, which they clearly are not.

How does the Jews are not a race/bloodline camp reconcile that with Halakah?

>>1683745

Beg pardon?

Religious. You can any ethnicity you want and become a Jew

>>1683907
But Jewry the institution will protest least if you have Jewish mother ie mitochondrial DNA.

>>1682575
Kind of both. Judaism is a religion, and Jews are the people.

That being said, you can become Jewish by converting to Judaism. That's why there are black jews, asian jews, ect.

>>1683154
Ashkenazi and Sephardi jews fall on top of Mediterranean-European populations in genetic maps

>>1683960
Often, spouses convert to Judaism if their betrothed insists, and as far as I know the clergy permits it

t. not Chaim

>>1684594
Nice try Khazar

>>1683715
>They speak Yiddish
Almost no one speaks Yiddish anymore. Some old people, and a few tiny revivalist communities.

Otherwise, a pretty stupid summary. No Yiddish speaker is ever pretending to be Hebrew or something, and if you really think that you know even less about linguistics than you pretend.

>>1682575
It's litterally an exclusive club of elitist assholes.

>>1684737
I think they still speak it in Brooklyn

>>1684752
tell that to the Ethiopians

>>1682985

Syrian Jews in the US don't accept converts, but you're right for the rest. Converts aren't always liked however, as especially in America the Ashkenazim tend to be a little racist.

>>1684594

They actually fall somewhere around Cypriots, Greeks and Levantine populations, as expected.

Greeks and south-eastern Europeans are also quite different from other Europeans in that they generally have more Middle-Eastern derived Y-haplogroups (E, J, G) as well as autosomally just like Jews and other Levantines, while the rest of Europeans have Euro Hunter-gatherer groups (I in western Europe, R1b and R1a from the eastern European steppe that later became the Indo-Europeans and invaded Western Europe).

>>1683703
who?

They're best described a nation

The Torah is their constitution, and you're either born into it, or you gain citizenship as a convert.