What if Africa was never colonized?

>>1669809
It would be on par with the rest of Asia. European colonialism destroyed Africa.

>>1669809
They would go a similiar route like japan. Being under european influence but slowly modernizing through trade and exchange of ideas

Do you even believe yourselves cuck?

Black people have average IQ of 75 in Africa do you actually believe they could build and accomplish the same as Asians?

You are delusional

North Africa would have expanded and taken control

>>1669837
>the average IQ is biologically determined

>>1669837
Black peoples iq is rising

>>1669837
>IQ is meaningful in any way

>>1669848
>IQ isn't heritable
>>1669849
>decades after whites colonized and are still pouring in aid

Things that make you go hmm

>>1669837
off to /pol/ you go

>>1669859
>Things that make you go hmm
Could you actually post what you mean by that?

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>>1669809

>>1669863
It just really made me think

>>1669837
Wasn't it estimated to be at 80?

>>1669809
Considering slave trade harmed Africa way more than the scramble, it would probably be the same shit with a different face. Semi-decent nations like South Africa or Botswana won't exist, so it would be even worst.

>>1669859
>the average IQ is inherited

>>1669872
*even worse.

>>1669837

>muh iq

https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/black-iq-gains-in-britain-kenya-and-dominica/

Muh heritability

https://debunkingdenialism.com/2012/08/11/the-widespread-abuse-of-heritability/#more-5129


https://debunkingdenialism.com/2016/04/30/mailbag-modern-high-throughput-genomics-versus-race-realism/

>>1669870
about what? Can the proper environment post colonization can help raise IQ? Selection on that population that already had a high IQ? Nothing can change it? What?

>>1669889
Thanks senpai, english is not my native language and I like to be reminded of stuff like that so I can get better. One day maybe I'll be able to publish in english.

>>1669815

This.

Though I reckon it would be more like Japan.

>>1669871
It's all over the place because the stuff they get that number from is a total joke.

>>1669843
No they had plenty of time to do that but North Africa didn't extend much south.

>>1669871

Low in some areas, higher in others.

The more developed the country, the higher the iq

>>1669919
More like te higher iq of the people the more developed the country is

>>1669822
>They would go a similiar route like japan.
>Being under european influence but slowly modernizing through trade and exchange of ideas
So in other words the complete opposite route of Japan?

>>1669871

All over the place, but there are gains

http://racialreality.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/african-iq-and-the-flynn-effect.html?m=1

The whole of african nations that matter would boil down to caliphates in mali, Ethiopia, Egypt, Zulu, Morocco, Tripoli and the Boer states (the ones that werent colonized but only settled)
Outside that it would be oogabooga land, desolate and backwater full of tribal negros in their natural state.

>>1669934
You are missing a lot of states though.

>>1669926
South Korea was stupid as fuck back in the 50's.

>>1669936
>>1669936
Like what, algeria? That was conquered before the scramble
What else could I have missed? Kongo? That barely stately tribe?

If you say Masina and Sokoto they are included with Malian Caliphates.

Or maybe you mean the pre scramble european lands in africa. Im sure maybe they could have been organized into such states as Mozambique and maybe ethiopia wouldnt eat the somalis alive like the belgians did to congolese, skewering them ass to mouth on spits. But thats the farthest it would go. Or do you think egypt would let sudan go? Those Nubians wouldnt know a state if it hit them in the dick, without egyptians of course.

>>1669809
Then they'd still be killing each others with spears in mudhuts villages instead of killing each others with firearms in white-built cities like now

>>1669815
>>1669822
>>1669903
Yeah, because early 19th century Japan totally was as backward as early 19th century (pre-colonial) Africa...

>>1669960
Kongo wasn't a stately tribe though they had a pretty stable government and hierarchy and far influence as well as regional power.

>>1669982
I bet you also say they where kings as well.
Also nice sphere of influence on the unstatly dindus in their general viscinity. I bet they even let them touch the chieftans rainstick for good luck!
If only the spanish near them would have civilized them, then maybe. But they could not have civilized themselves. And even then we are considering no colonization. So tough chance for them.

>>1669809
ethiopea.

>>1669970

It's incredibly naive to think that just because a place wasn't colonized means it'd be completely isolated from the rest of the world in some sort of fucking bubble.

Even before Ethiopia was colonized (briefly) by Italy under Mussolini they'd begun modernizing by inviting western experts in, in the same way Japan did. I think other African countries could have done a similar thing if they hadn't been colonized. I'm not suggesting the outcome would be the same success story as Japan, but I also don't think it'd be the same abject failure of postcolonial Africa.

That said, I also think Africa could have been much better off today if decolonization hadn't been such a botch job. Given a few more decades of colonial rule I think there could've been a smoother transition of power.

>>1670011
What are you going on about just correct time you on Kongo.

Also the Kongo state was heavily centralized which helped converting the masses to Christianity much quicker and spreading the church.
They had trade and cultural contact with Portugal.

Having deep trade contacts helps with development of you nation and civilisation and many African leaders sought help and assistance of others like Kongo and Portugal.

>>1670038
The colonies were getting way too costly and decolonisation was always going to a mess no matter what.

>>1670041
But Portuguese are neither white nor civilized
Glorified Moorish puppets of the Anglos

>>1669897
Hey sugar tits, not him but "really made me think" is just a meme.
Youre replying to a shitposter and actually losing

>>1670050
Oh fuck off to whatever board you came from.

>>1670046
The US and USSR forcing it didn't help though.

>>1670038
While I can see Ethiopia westernizing nicely, I can't see many other places (Let's assume Rhodesia/South Africa never get colonized).

Ethiopia had a long tradition of Ethiopian Orthodox kingship, and a further tradition of Afro-Asiatic cultural government and traditions along with it's own writing system. The vast majority of places in Africa did not have that (I can see the people of Nigeria running with Nsibidi however).

No colonization means we get a handful of westernized African states, sure, but the vast majority of Africa is still uninhabited or inhabited by ooga booga tribesmen.

>>1670046

I think the way the 20th century panned out it was bound to happen the way it did, but if the first and second world wars hadn't been a thing I think the imperial powers could have done better.

Part of the reason the colonies got so costly was because the imperial governments (at least in Britain, I think in the others as well) shouldered a lot of administrative responsibilities in order to run the war. That's where it was the most costly, and while the governments were footing that bill private interests were still making money.

>>1669809
ITT cucks who have never met s black perso

>>1670058
>but the vast majority of Africa is still uninhabited or inhabited by ooga booga tribesmen

I'd anticipate that the westernized states would establish hegemony over those regions pretty quick if they didn't get with the program.

>>1669815
Kek, Africans neglected what the Europeans built for them. Portuguese built sewers for example but after they left the Africans did nothing now it's a stinky diseased shithole

>>1669894

>heritability studies can tell and do tell us that some of the variation in IQ can be attributed to genetic variation

>>1670068
>dat projection

I wonder if the world wouldn't be as developed as it is today without slavery.

Africa was on its way to becoming a great civilization Arab contact was good for them desu

>>1670072
Completely different climate though.
Portugal can pay for up keeping of those sewers and infrastructure most poor nations can't because they don't have the tax base OR the ability to force people to do forced labour like in many colonies.

>>1670068
m8 I'm black myself

Fairly certain the closest you've come to meeting a black person was rolling up your windows frantically at the gas station

>>1670060

The colonies wouldn't have changed much and still be heavily disadvantaged and crippled as hell and The First world war would have happend either way because of the constant strife and bad sentiments between nations. There was many times where countries would've broken out in conflict if the issue between the two involving colonies wasn't mitigated in time. If not then it would've happened at later and probably worse time

>>1670096
I'm half black and grew up around blacks. Nice try though. You're a white dude

>>1670110
Yellabone calling the Negro white?

>>1670115
You must be if you are oblivious to the nature of blacks

Colonies means settlements so unless there are 100% English areas they weren't colonies.

>>1670128
Africa was the least colonized area, the most colonized was Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA.

>>1670110
>>1670115
>>1670124

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51vFbsZkhXU

>>1670124
So you'll claim anyone is white just to say that they don't know the true nature of I guess and entire continent and it's descendants because clearly 1 guy knows all there is to the nature of not only Blacks but I guess every other people?

>>1670128
Fuck no there's several types of colonies.

>>1670137
Most white people get uncomfortable when you discuss black underachievement and instability. They are raised to believe we are all the same. Black people don't believe this. They are very aware of their situation. It's usually white people who are ignorant of the facts.

Ask a black person if white people are like them compared to if you as a white person the opposite, you'll get different answers.

>>1670150
No, colonies means settlements, having tributary states are not colonies.

Whole lot of self hate in this bitch

>>1670161
Settlements aren't the only type of colony bro.
Do you even know what the fuck you are saying?

>>1670152
Who the fuck cares?

>>1669926
It's a feedback loop

>>1670170
What if's are a stupid thing but any answer can't really be concrete.

>>1670172
If you have money to spend and you invest it right it comes back to yo in other ways.

>>1670168
People who don't like poverty, killings and crime care.

If it was never colonised I'm thinking that African locals would start to take ideas from the West and at least attempt to develop sort of state institutions.

However I couldn't see how colonisation would ever be avoided given the mindset of Europe and the need to expand.

>>1670182
>expand
Africa was barely touched, only "colonies" were in Rhodesia and South Africa which were exterminated long ago.

This video is a colony that is 100% colonized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVEcvdclrqo

>>1670185
Orania is a town though not a colony.

Also you forgot East Africa and settlers would have been brought in sooner or later in other colonies.

>>1670185
There is no colony that is worse than the colonizer.

>>1670197
Qubec is a colony, it is no worse or better than France.

>>1670204
Canada is a colony, it is no worse or better than England.

>>1670206
the Least colonized areas are the shitteist, maximum colonization is 100% population from the colonizing entity.

>>1670211
>he Least colonized areas are the shitteist

They are the shittiest because the state that did the colonizing did barely investment at all to develop the state.

>>1670223
All African infrastructure is from small European colonies in Africa.

>>1670231
Are you saying every infrastructure is solely from Europe? You do know many infrastructure was built post colonial period?

Also most of those buildings were for extraction or resources and transportation of goods to ports or for the benefit of concession companies? So they weren't really as all encompassing as thought of since they were limited to a few places.

>>1670260
It really doesn't matter, Africa doesn't matter to Europe and nor to me.

>>1670231

Africa had infrastructure pre colonial era, and even before Islamification in certain areas.

>>1670268
Then why make a statement like >>1670231
that's clearly wrong.

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>Africa without colonialism

>>1669809
/pol/ shitposting aside, sub-saharan africa never really had a chance. Just look at Ethiopia and Liberia. Both were "free" nations for the most part and today, Liberia is literally the poorest country in the world and Ethiopia is doing pretty shit too. Or look at Equatoria Guinea. You'd think that with all the oil it'll be a gulf-tier state. But it's actually an authoritarian shithole that sold its oil right for nothing- basically economic colonialism- the fate of sub-saharan africa with or without colonialism.

I also really hate how people pretend that ethnic tensions wouldn't exist without colonialism. The whole continent is a shitshow of ethnicities. The post-colonial wars will just be replaced by wars of conquest and the subsequent rebellions on an even bigger scale than now.

>inb4 muh modernization like asia
China (Taiwan), Korea and Japan are the sole countries that modernized. Most of south-eastern asia was africa-tier up until the 80s. And those 4 (3) countries had a national identity, administration and social hierarchy, skilled workforce and capital, on which to build the modernization process. They also had organized armies (even if inferior to western ones) Africa had none of that, for the most part.

Best case scenario for Africa is there being several coastal 2nd world countries in the 10,000$ gdp per capita range (Sokoto, Mali, Ethiopia, Zanzibr, Kongo etc), the rest being the same shit as now, since european corporations would've moved in with or without colonialism.

>>1670320

Although I will agree that Ethiopia faced it's struggles

(Me being an Ethiopian whose parents were migrants)

Ethiopia is getting better, it's not a shit hole as it once was.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2015/07/08/transforming-ethiopia-into-a-manufacturing-powerhouse-requires-skills-development-and-improved-investment-climate

https://www.csis.org/analysis/sustaining-improvements-public-health-ethiopia

>>1669809
>European economies collapse left and right due to lack of strategic resources
>this creates even more of a dependence upon New World resources
>Americas thrive
>Europe and Asia die
>Africa remains stagnant due to complete lack of social mobility, scientific progress, or uplift to achieve either of these things
A world without a European Africa is a world that looks bleak for everyone outside of the Americas.

>>1670320
Japan is the sole country that self-modernized. China and Korea had to be dragged out of their anti-industrial states by other powers.

>>1670371
>European economies collapse left and right due to lack of strategic resources
>european corporations, instead of paying 30% of its income in taxes to a colonial government, pay a 2-3% to bribe the local ruler to let them in and protect them
>this is somehow bad for europe

>>1670385
True.

>>1670417
>implying colonial companies did any of that successfully in our timeline
You're implying that the companies which eventually became outright protectorates and colonies were successful in any way, shape or form. This is completely false. Most African colonial companies that existed with permission of their European counterparts and local rulers failed within 5 years or less. I don't think you fully understand the startup cost for these companies.

>>1670439
>failed within 5 years or less
And resources were never extracted from African ever again.
Oh, wait.
>implying they aren't/weren't successful for the most part
>implying africa was ever a vital resource exporter
>implying the pre-WWI europen superpowers would let the US be a monopolist of any kind and not just exploit other parts of the world like east asia
>implying I'm talking about the XIXc. meme concessionary companies and not about the corporations that are going all out an-cap in africa currently
>implying it wouldn't be the same shit with or without colonialism

>>1670560
>they aren't/weren't successful for the most part
They weren't and aren't. They were literally forced into government takeover from immediate collapse. Modern companies are almost solely propped up by states in the same fashion that the colonial charter companies of the fin die siecle were.

>implying africa was ever a vital resource exporter
Prior to 1902, Germany received 80% of their cotton from the United States. State legislation for German East Africa rectified this which reduced American cotton imports to 35%. This doesn't even take into account rubber and palm plantations, or various mines for rare metals.

>the pre-WWI europen superpowers would let the US be a monopolist of any kind and not just exploit other parts of the world like east asia
Except that's what happened. Fear, and the reality in some cases, of overdependence upon American markets and resources forced Europe into Africa to avoid complete dependence.

>I'm talking about the XIXc. meme concessionary companies and not about the corporations that are going all out an-cap in africa currently
>near solely funded by the Chinese state in order to extract resources for use in Chinese industry
>an-cap
It's like you don't even know what's actually going on.

>it wouldn't be the same shit with or without colonialism
Not even close.

>>1669809
You'd still see a lot of large scale warfare throughout the twentieth century as the few major population centers adapted technology to build large empires to their geographic limits.

>>1670417
No it's not. China invested way more heavily in it's 'self-strengthening' program than the Japanese. The problem is that their modernization program undermined the class basis of their society, and so they ended up in an anarchic heap.

>>1670320
>You'd think that with all the oil it'll be a gulf-tier state. But it's actually an authoritarian shithole that sold its oil right for nothing- basically economic colonialism- the fate of sub-saharan africa with or without colonialism.

It's based on the area.
Many areas had rulers with big checks of power on them and many of those nations like Equatorial Guinea are simply just reenacting polices that the populace know best in a modern state through och the 20th century (a colonial state) Not to mention many of the states are artificial.

>>1670439
>This is completely false. Most African colonial companies that existed with permission of their European counterparts and local rulers failed within 5 years or less. I don't think you fully understand the startup cost for these companies.


THIS. I remember many cases the colonial government had to really step in to make a lot of those concessions even turn a profit

Colonies could barely turn a profit so many colonies enacted polices designed to extract as much from a colony as possible like arbitrary taxation, popualtion movement, forcing native farmers to grow cash crops even to the detriment of the local food markets and food output or forced labour to concessionary companies or public projects.

Many companies could be construed as successful but the colonies were a burden and for many offered nothing other then just labour. Would you say a guy who owns a plantation is really successful if the only reason he can turn a profit was through a government forcing people to work for him?

Violating the prime directive was a mistake.

>>1670651
Fuck that shit contact was made from a very very long time.

>>1670590
>Modern companies are almost solely propped up by states
Huh?

>cotton
>rubber
>rare metals
All present in big quantities in east asia, especially china (not to mention india and indonesia) If not for africa, europe would've expanded the spheres of influence into all out colonies in china after the boxers- problem solved. Also, if euros got desperate, they could always challenge the monroe doctrine and there is nothing the US can do with its meme armed forces pre-WWI.

>near solely funded by the Chinese state in order to extract resources for use in Chinese industry
>an-cap
Meaning they exploit the continent and its people without athering to any laws whatsoever, bribing authorities to overlook everything. Being state corporations has nothing to do with it.

>Not even close.
Yes, the weakling euros would just capitulate to their american overlords. It's not like they ever attacked and decimated countries over trade, resources and influence ever.

>>1670660
Most of Africa hasn't even made contact with each other. That's why they're. Is the most genetic drift in Africa because of geographic separation between their own population as well as others.

>>1670661
Every company is like that regardless if the bribing was successful or not in developing countries

Chinese companies are scapegoated for being corrupt despite western ones being pretty much alike. Look at all the shit English, Canadian,, austral in, America or French and more companies do abroad. Hell many times they outright ignore the governments.

>>1670661
>Huh?
Modern companies that fill the same role which you are discussing are solely propped up by foreign governments.

>especially china
America says no. All but Russia and Japan ratified and upheld the Open Door Policy.

>not to mention india and indonesia
By this point they are solely under Dutch and British control which means WWI breaks out in the 1890s and not 1914. They are not available to other powers.

>Being state corporations has nothing to do with it
>claiming state corporations are anarcho-capitalist in any form
This idiocy I swear to christ.

>the weakling euros would just capitulate to their american overlords
Economically, they did for raw materials.

>It's not like they ever attacked and decimated countries over trade, resources and influence ever
This isn't 1812. America punches far above their weight.

>>1670661
>>1670683
Also, your Chinese example is extremely retarded. If it were true, the Chinese wouldn't be in Africa right now.

>>1669848
>genetics aren't real

>>1670732
We still don't know a fuckton of genetics at all and there's way to many factors to consider.

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Centuries with Europeans monsters
>Dakar

Centuries without Europeans monsters
>Cap-Haitien, Haiti

>>1670738
All I know is that there are significant IQ gaps regardless of income between races in first world nations.

Regarding low IQ Africa, people blame poverty. When they're no longer able to blame poverty(lowest income asians in US outscore highest income blacks), they blame culture. Yet black adopted children to white parents still have lower IQs than whites.

People should stop being so politically correct and look at the inherit-ability of IQ. Look at the adoption studies on it and how the correlation is with the biological parents, not the adopted ones.

You can't tell me that evolution didn't effect the brain of the different human populations in vastly different environments.

Ottomans and other north african muslims would have eventually gone south. Killing, enslaving, or converting the indigenous population.

>>1670683
>Modern companies that fill the same role which you are discussing are solely propped up by foreign governments.
No, they aren't.

>ratified and upheld the Open Door Policy
We are talking about an highly improbable alt-his scenario here. If euros weren't bound by african colonialism, China was the next obvious target.

>By this point they are solely under Dutch and British control which means WWI breaks out in the 1890s and not 1914. They are not available to other powers.
>what is selling raw resources to other countries, I don't even know

>America says no.
Boo hoo. I'm sure the US asiatic squadron with its, like, 2 ships would be able to enforce anything.

>This isn't 1812. America punches far above their weight
>It's a "the US thinks it had any say in world politics pre-1900" episode
A potential temporal european alliance, like in the boxer rebellion, but against the US would completely destroy the states, especially if it's driven by economic turmoil at home. The US had no army worth mentioning and the navy wasn't in it's best shape in the late XIXc.(inbr the new navy) You'd have a WWI-esque gangbang against the US, where it will be outmached both on land and water, by the massive european armies and navies.

>>1670759

>muh heritability

https://debunkingdenialism.com/2012/08/11/the-widespread-abuse-of-heritability/#more-5129

>b-but the iq gap isn't closing

https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/black-iq-gains-in-britain-kenya-and-dominica/
>b-but adoption

In another study by Barbara Tizard (Tizard et al 1972), Jamaican children in the UK who were raised with Whites in an institutional setting had IQ’s of 108, mixed race children had IQ’s of 106 while White children had IQ’s of 103, at age 4-5. If anything, this study showed a slight advantage for the Black children.

Opponents say that these Jamaicans were selective immigrants – that is, they were the brightest of the bright. James Flynn argues in counterpoint that selective migration could not have raised IQ’s by more than a few points (Nisbett 1998).

>b-but the iq gap isn't closing for American blacks

http://racialreality.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/african-iq-and-the-flynn-effect.html?m=1

>>1670759
>You can't tell me that evolution didn't effect the brain of the different human populations in vastly different environments.

How does this even make sense? tell me your reasoning

>Regarding low IQ Africa, people blame poverty

If you don't have the education budget to have a high standard of education and childhood nutrition eliminated intelligence in the population goes up.

>Yet black adopted children to white parents still have lower IQs than whites.
In that study you do know most kids adopted weren't uniform in age. Many were infants or babies and others were 6+years old

>>1670812
Sorry meant

>If you do have the education budget to have a high standard of education and childhood malnutrition eliminated intelligence in the populations IQ goes up.

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>>1670767
>eventually
All of Africa would be turkish, not a single negroid to be found.

>>1670847
Ottoman's never really did much in the African parts of their colonies. Just trade and dominating the local area but even then the grasp was pretty tenuous.

>>1670856
there was no income to obtain from Africa either, nothing there.

>>1670808
Africans can make gains, but it will never fully close the gap. Blacks develop faster while whites and Asians develop longer, the gap widens somewhere around 15-18 significantly.
IQ's inheritable correlation increases with age, meaning you have more variability when you're younger. IQ tests before adulthood have little meaning.

Flynn effect is interesting, it's sort of like global warming in that Flynn predicted a lot more IQ gains than have happened in the bast two decades. It has come under a lot of scrutiny and I think you should look into the arguments against it.

>>1670808
Listen to this: https://soundcloud.com/darwin-digest/episode-3-race-and-iq

Are we talking before European colonization or before arab colonization. Before the Arabs were setting up states in east Africa a thousand years ago.

>>1670856
Also, even into the 19th century African states were perfectly capable of making the Turks fuck off even if they felt like doing something.

>>1670873
except turning it into a place where you can extract cheap soldier and labour.

>>1670902
>Africans can make gains, but it will never fully close the gap. Blacks develop faster while whites and Asians develop longer, the gap widens somewhere around 15-18 significantly.


wtf are you going on about?

>>1670918
>labour
Labour for what?
>cheap soldiers
Ottomans valued homogeneity in their army.

>>1670759
>When they're no longer able to blame poverty(lowest income asians in US outscore highest income blacks), they blame culture. Yet black adopted children to white parents still have lower IQs than whites.

Being raised by white parents doesn't make a black kid immune to the poisonous urban black culture of gangs, violence, drugs, disobedience, etc. Kids get cultural influence from more than just their parents, and a black child in school is more likely to have black children as peers, children whom likely haven't been raised by adopted white parents. If anything I'd say that peers have more influence on a person's culture than their parents outside of a very young age.

>>1671740
I;m not sure you realise most white kids in that study were adopted as babies or super young while most blacks were older and many went int the foster care system.

Not to mention for the black adopted by black kids many times it was relative that did the adopting. Also this study took place in Minnesota so huge difference in cultural and social environments.

>>1669809
It'd be a bigger andaman island

>>1671765
I don;t think you know what Andaman or Africa is.

>>1671779
ah shit, i meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island

>>1669815
in asia itself, only certain countries with high civilisation like china or japan are able to be success, middle civilisations like thais and malays are just south american tier, and the countries with tribal non-civilisation like timor and philippine are still shithole

and beside that, most of asia except few countries like japan are colonised and they still better off than africa

>>1669809
Then it would have been much better. Anglos fucked everything up .

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>>1669809
>What if Africa was never colonized?
I think you probably mean colonized by Europeans? Because Arabs were pretty successful in their colonization.
Without Europeans:

>more Arab and latter Ottoman influence
Arabs might go even deeper in the continent for resources and slaves, which also means.

>more Islam
and Christians would be insignificant, assuming some missionaries do arrive.

>a huge number of small political entities built along tribal lines.
In late 19th century Europeans established huge territories uniting many diverse populations.
It was unfair and caused many conflicts, but that means that these now large countries have greater potential than many fragmented ones.
Without that, uniting African people would be much more difficult.

>less modern technology
Knowledge about agricultural techniques and industry would eventually arrive, but much latter. Less modern medicine, which also leads to:

>less Africans
At the start of the 20th century, Europe was more populated than than Africa. Without Western Medicine, African wouldn't have the demographic boom they have today. Most of Africa would remain underpopulated.

Northern Africa would be a giant Arab/Turkish colony, South and Central Africa would be many fragmented tribes that would be under European influence.

>>1671869
Why are you answering a what if question seriously? You know it's pointless


Also it doesn't mean European contact never happened which pretty much renders your whole post kinda useless..

>>1671869
>uniting African people
Modern nation-states didnt really unite the various tribes, same as in Middle East.

>less modern technology
Probably yes. Wonder what would happen if muslims somehow were able to continue their golden age.

>>1671906
>Why are you...
Because I'm bored.

>it doesn't mean European contact never happened
Which is in accordance with what I said, some missionaries and influence, some knowledge that slowly spreads, but no direct control.

>renders your whole post kinda useless.
Kys

>>1671924
I'm pretty sure there's be huge trading relationships and exchange of knowledge like what happened to Kongo and Portugal. It's what happens in a lot of places before "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL" become viable later on.

>>1671914
>Modern nation-states didn't really unite the various tribes

True, it didn't make everyone think they are the same nation.
But to build a large country with the resources to compete with the world, you would need to unite these peoples, trough conquest or some sort of coercion.
European did the work for them.
That's why countries like Nigeria and South Africa have the potential be regional powers and maybe even more in the centuries to come.

>>1671906
>>1671931
Why shit on him? His answer was well thought out.

>>1671931
>trading relationships and exchange of knowledge
That's what I mean by "influence"

>>1671944
>European did the work for them
Did they? Cause so far Europeans have been playing Africans against each other to exploit and profit off them. In Middle East, 100 years after the lines of the modern nation states have been drawn, these proved to mean nothing. Is Africa really different?

>>1671944
There were many political entities that consisted of multiple peoples in one cohesive group but many of them were bundled up with other people they have no cultural or political ties to.

Hell there were many cohesive ethnic groups that were slapped together in some "nation"

Look at Nigeria with the Yoruba, Igbo and Hausa.

>>1671944
>That's why countries like Nigeria and South Africa have the potential be regional powers and maybe even more in the centuries to come.
You are right, they got a lot of potential, and they will always have it.

>>1670038
>if decolonization hadn't been such a botch job
I think a big part of this is the post-colonial hope that the metropoles could still indirectly run their own colonies for cheaper than they had before. Francafrique especially comes to mind. So they kept the old colonial borders, which make no national sense, since they were either divided through simple geography, which European power got there first, and/or with an attitude of divide & conquer, pitting the local nations against each other. Had there been a sort of anti-Berlin Conference where the borders were redrawn more sanely, a lot of trouble could have been avoided.

>>1671966
Not saying they did it out of goodwill. They were simply to lazy to divide Africa along ethnic lines.

>Is Africa really different?
Yes, because in the Middle East you would have had a fewer states if the European decided to use language/ethnicity as a factor for drawing borders.
In Africa you would have dozens of small states.
And many petty states would actually be better in keeping Africa weak.
Same with India and China.

>>1671990
You wouldn't divide by ethnicity though.

>>1670076
> tell us that some of the variation in IQ can be attributed to genetic variation
>tell us that some of the variation in IQ
>tell us that some
>some

>>1671990
India was united by a pan indian movement that took place over 70 odd years at the time of independence though.

>>1672002
The point was that having India divided in many smaller states would mean one less large country as competition for others.

>>1669975
I'm assuming they're assuming OP included "no introduction of slavery", at which point Africa would be considerably more organised.

>>1670068
Black guy here, what's up?

>>1672476
Do you love in America?

>>1672484
>love
live*

>>1670847
About as negroid as Afro-Turks are.

>>1671838
But Africans independently (or at least West and Central Africans anyway) domesticated crops and used metal tools, including steel. The Senitelese are literally Erectus tier, only without fire. Not even the most backwoods Khoisan is that low.

Ignorant/10, apply thyself.

>>1672484
>>1672490

Yes. South Florida to be specific.

>>1672129
>introduction

Slavery was endemic in Africa long before the Muslims turned up.

>>1672508
Do you like America?

Have you ever experienced racism?

>>1672518
Yes I like America, otherwise I would have moved to Jamaica where half of my family is.

I've experienced racism, but not anything extreme like some people. I guess it's because I don't act stereotypical like others, or maybe I'm just not "lucky" enough.

There's a few logistical factors that people ignore about colonization (or lack thereof) that are important in determining the success of a nation

The population would be much smaller for starters, since centralizing populations and adding medicines, agriculture and work dramatically increased the populations of almost all colonized African countries especially outside of the Congo region.

This meant that whatever tribes gained access to these things first through western trade (most likely along the cape and coastal regions) would simply have played the role of 'colonizing' other Africans like the tribesmen in the Congo under disparate Belgian rule. It would probably result in a shitload of tribal genocide or enslavement/conquest from the people who westernized first.

>>1672515
but that Muslim traded slaves in East Africa tho

>>1670072
That's not at all relevant to what he said.

>>1669809
they once had a phonecian style empire spanning 200k-20kybp from aus-ind-eur-americas (and probably back again, pre-jomons in asia etc)

Anyone who asks or attempts to answer this question, which concerns about 3000 different ethnicities, is retarded.

Ask about a specific people or region maybe, though even then it's still retarded speculation that nobody on this board really knows anything about.

>>1672502
yes, though the outcome is practically the same, neither created anything powerful or unique in terms of empires or technology/inventions etc, apart from north-north eastern africa which has never been part of any african civilization(s) anyways

>>1669809
What country should I pick if I want to own all of Africa in eu4?

I'm thinking Portugal, that way I won't dilute any white nations gene-pool.

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>>1669934
>Ethiopia
>Caliphate
Still plenty of Christians in there.

>>1670320
>I also really hate how people pretend that ethnic tensions wouldn't exist without colonialism. The whole continent is a shitshow of ethnicities. The post-colonial wars will just be replaced by wars of conquest and the subsequent rebellions on an even bigger scale than now.
I'm just going to speculate that this has to do with the lack of development. When the Romans went about conquering Europe they Latinized and Romanized whoever they didn't kill. Or how China has turned everyone into Han Chinese (still a WIP in the interior of the country, but whatever). These places had less trouble developing national identities and becoming large states because they already shared a ton.

Sadly, a similar process of turning all of these tiny, irrelevant tribes with little recorded history into larger ethnic groups that can be the basis for ethno nation states of some consequence is basically impossible now. Western forces would intervene to put a stop to it despite it being a good thing in the long run.

If we never colonized them you might have seen a few tribes start this process like the Zulus. Get an upper hand and absorb neighbors into one group. The farther along in this process they get the better chance that they can create a stable country.

>>1673400
>apart from north-north eastern africa which has never been part of any african civilization(s) anyways

They are in fucking Africa.
Even then many civs or other parts of the world did little at all or weren't impressive. Comparing Africa to Abdamanese is completely stupid in every degree of the word.

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>>1669837

>>1673874
But you're white aren't you?
Most 4chan users are white males.

>>1669934

>What is the Swahili coast
>What is Kongo
>What is Madagascar
>Zulu tribes are more relevant than other bumfuck tribes because I played them in Civilization

>>1673868
yes, on the african continent

Were the mongols european because they held land in europe?
no, location doesn't determine genetics

>>1669837
Do you even believe yourselves plebeian?

Germanic people have average IQ of 75 in Magna Germania do you actually believe they could build and accomplish the same as Persians?

You are delusional

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>>1670320
>Liberia is literally the poorest country
Gee I wonder why

>>1674569
Africa had relationships with south of them. Egypts genetics are indigenous to that region. They are African. Is Finland not European?

>>1670069
That would be the same as imperialism, except now it's black imperialism.

>>1669809
Considering the vastness of Africas resources and the backwardness of its peoples it's pretty much impossible it wouldn't be colonized by somebody.

It's just another one of those unfortunate cases of a people being doomed from basically the start, like Native Americans

Before colonization, what happened was various tribes competing each other with European technology and guns. Before 19th century, the idea of spreading European values to other nations was pretty minimal. Only the Church bothered to do that, and they were pretty powerless against secular kings. If we take that into account, then what would probably happen is black colonialism/imperialism.

The thing is, the root of the problem is tribalism and barbarous killings (i.e. you solve problems by eliminating oppositions). Unless they somehow could form a centralized society (cities, etc.), where killing each others would be downright retarded, it wouldn't happen. Keep in mind that the tribes would also need common foreign enemies to demonize with. It's literally what happened with Japan and China. They formed their modern national identity by hating eternal Manchu or Yuro, etc.

>>1675283
There were many peoples who were pretty organized at the state level and wanted to modernise. This however clashed with the imperialistic and economic domination sentiments of the Euros they were in contact with as time went on (see Alfonso the First of Kongo relationship with Portugal turning sour and Portugal being assholes to new levels as time went on).

>>1675316
>Unless they somehow could form a centralized society (cities, etc.), where killing each others would be downright retarded, it wouldn't happen

That did happen though and there were centralized cities and entities in Africa.

>>1669815
Belgians built them railroads and all sorts of infrastructure and they did nothing with it

for being /his/ you guys sure don't know much of anything

>>1673851
>Or how China has turned everyone into Han Chinese (still a WIP in the interior of the country, but whatever).
They are in the process of turning SE Asia and Western countries (Australia, US, Canada) into Chinks too. In 22nd century everyone will speak ching chong because Tyler Wang and co. will be your new overlords.

>>1675339
Did you just finish watching Empire of Dust?
Also I don't think you know much about Belgian Congo at all.

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>be Germany
>have your country destroyed in WW2
>rebuild
>70 years later be top 5 country in the world

>be British prisoners
>get dumped off onto some desert island filled with dangerous wildlife
>not even 300 years later have built Australia, a first world nation with one of the best cities in the world

>be nigger
>kangz in Egypt
>4000 years goes by
>still living in mud huts
>blame it on da white man
>shieeeet

>>1675328
Yeah, without European colonialism, these just blob until they reach the geographic limits of their expansion/colide into each other.

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>be nigger
>get first world country handed to you on a silver platter
>destroy it in mere decades

honoraba memba pls

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>>1675369
>Australia
>first world

>>1669809
Lets see they would have no:
White technology
Infrastructure
Written languages
Books
Education systems
Healthcare systems
Governments
Sanitary systems
Public Waste systems
Agricultural systems

Hmm looks like blacks would still be in the stone age without colonization that brought european middle age tech to their tech nonexistent sub saharan regions.

Lmao at the retards that think blacks are the same as asians just lmao.

>>1669809
it'd be way worse than it is now, Papua New-Guinea tier

>>1669982
it only became that after contact with Portuguese