Death Sentence

The U.S. still practices it even though it has no effect on crime rates. It's some sort of weird pagan ritual.

Last person executed in my country, during peacetime, was in 1825.

I would not call death penalty relevant. It does not reduce the numbers and you pretty much force other citizens to be involved via proxy in the execution because a country is its citizens.

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>>1661538
>Is it still relevant
Rich thinking:
>How barbaric, the thought of being locked away with all those rapist and criminals would stop anyone from committing a crime. They don't even have T.V. in prison!

Poor thinking:
>Life sucks
>I should commit a crime, get away with it and i'l have some walking around money, get caught and I will end up in jail.
>In jail i'l get regular meals, be able to work out / play basket ball all day, and I can make some rich boy my bitch.
>Better not kill anybody though because I could get death row.

>>1661598

It absolutely does not work that way though.

>>1661555
>>1661595

Deterrence isn't the only function of punishment. We also want to segregate bad guys from the good guys and to hurt bad guys in proportion to their wrong.

>>1661623
Deterrence does not work. Murder is committed for 3 reasons, passion (sudden emotional bursts that can be controlled by only so much), profit (professional killers who do it rationally and do not think they will get caught/try not to get caught) and compulsion (mental illness, people with serious mental issues). These kind of murderers cannot be deterred.

Peter Hitchens made a good case for the Death Penalty once.

Essentially the death penalty for killing or perhaps even injuring a Police officer was why the Police in England didn't need to carry firearms.

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> not using based guillotine
Modern death sentence is shit.

I propose the following rule:

If you commit a criminal offense 3 times you will be sentenced to death.

It is impossible to accidentally fuck up 3 times so its a fool proof system.

>>1661636

Right mate. I'm saying that the death penalty need not have a deterrent effect to be useful because it serves other functions.

>>1661647

I'm sure that effect couldn't be shown empirically. Other European nations probably have comparable police homicide rates.

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>>1661538
vigilantism by an informed and armed citizenry is far more effective and effecient to strats of control & geographical inheretence projection, and protection

>>1661636
It's not just about deterrence. Killing them prevents them from breeding, and having more murders.
>But muh crime of passion!
we all get passionate and greedy, we all don't act on our impulses.

>>1661663
You can argue for "eliminating a problem", but what do we have to give in return?

Let the offenders think about their crimes in prison for the rest of their lives, but do not kill in another person's name...

>>1661664
>Vigilantism
Sure.
>OMG I DONT LIKE X DUE TO PETTY REASONS.
>ME TOO BECAUSE HE'S SO ANTI-SOCIAL AND DO NOT COME TO TOWN GATHERINGS.
>LET'S LYNCH HIM IN THE FIRST CRIME HE COMMITS.

You're basically espousing facebook comment-section justice.

>>1661664
strata* oops

>>1661657
>What if said people already made such a fucked up crime during the first attempt?

>>1661679
>Let the offenders think about their crimes in prison for the rest of their lives
1. That costs money. A lot of money. You are taking care of someone, for the rest of there life.

2. They are not thinking about there crimes, they are thinking about how to get drugs/sex/whatever will make there time more enjoyable.

3. Life imprisonment is much much more cruel then a death sentence. Because its 50+ years trapped in a small space, followed by a death sentence.

>>1661657
>Implying police don't try to add as many charges as possible when arresting.

>>1661655
Agreed.
Guillotine is not only a much more guaranteed method of a swift and painless death, but it is also /mu/core

>>1661687
There is also the factor that would you really trust the government to kill a human being?
With all the things they do really well...

>>1661686
>>1661692

Obviously the law has to be changed a bit.

>>1661687
>1. That costs money. A lot of money. You are taking care of someone, for the rest of there life.

The legal costs of the court hearings required to execute someone are greater, unless you want to cut down on those and risk executing innocents even more than what already happens.

>>1661694

That's what government does best. Its the central function of government.

>>1661687

Please dont offer bad arguments for my position.

1. The death penalty as it works in the US is more expensive because of the lengthy appeals process that can last 30+ years. It is in effect life imprisonment plus 30 years of legal fees provided by the taxpayer. The death penalty sentencing and appeals rules mist be changed in order to make it cost effective.

3. Most prisoners on death row, even those who have no chance of getting their conviction reversed, voluntarily appeal their sentence, thus prolonging their prison stay. Facts show that they do everything in their power to avoid death and choose to prolong their sentence over death.

>>1661538
It appears to be more expensive for the state than life imprisonment, and there's always the possibility of executing an innocent.
Frankly I see no upsides to it, outside of situations where keeping prisoners might lead to problems, but nowadays that's not the case outside of war or other peculiar situations.

Bump , i like what you are exposing guys

>>1661687
It costs more to keep them in Death Row than life in prison. You started with a false premise, congratulations. You never even bothered to look anything up.

>>1661694
>would you really trust the government to kill a human being
If they're willing to put in death row people who have no business being there, they'd have no trouble setting up accidents and shit.
It's not much of an argument, the state will always have a near monopoly on force regardless of how you regulate it to use it.

>>1661538
It depends on whether you think it is more humane than solitary.

What if the death penalty could only be implied in cases of purposeful or premeditated murder?

Not only that but if the victim had a family, they could elect to have the victim put on death row but the default (if no family or if they don't choose to speak up) is a life sentence with no parole.

What is wrong with this viewpoint?

Open to criticism.

>>1661538
I broadly support the death penalty:

1. Some crimes (which can be proved beyond reasonable doubt) are so heinous that the perpetrator has essentially forfeited their right to live in society.

2. For crimes that would currently require lifelong prison sentences, such prisoners are currently an unwelcome burden to society and state.

3. Prisoners for whom rehabilitation is not a possibility.

The penalty should be hanging, with all effort to ensure a swift death, and should be carried out in the shortest time possible after sentencing and allowing for appeal (no more than 3 months).

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>>1661805
>>1661772
>>1661770
>It costs more money to kill then to keep alive.
This is a problem with the system not the penalty.

The fact that it takes 30+ years to kill someone after they are convicted is the fault of the U.S.'s justice system. It does not actually take 30+ years to execute someone. It does not actually cost more money to kill someone.
This is just the way the system is set up.

I was hoping most people here would be smart enough to grasp that without having to have me explain it.

>>1662466
I was hoping you'd be smart enough to know the reason we wait 30 years to kill someone. *sigh*

It's retarded. It's expensive as fuck, doesn't act as a deterrent and, of course, people are known to have been found innocent after being executed.

not with this corrupted piece of shit system we have to live in

>>1661538
Bring back the guillotine.

>>1661922
If you allowed families of murder victims to excercise that kind of power, they would condemn the murder to death 9 times out of 10. The blame for the murder's death therefore falls on the shoulders of the victim's family, which could in turn prompt those close to the murder to carry out revenge hits on the former.

That cycle would repeat, and it would ultimately end in a bloodbath.

Death penalty is good.

>there are people who unironically argue that child rapists and cannibal murderers should be subsidized by taxpayer money until they die of old age

>>1665009

>i-it costs more

No, actually. It costs more to put them on death row what with the repeated legal costs. Cut out those and you have even MORE innocents being executed.

The death penalty literally does not have any of the benefits it's proponents assert. It's a fundamentally flawed idea based on vengeance.

>>1661538
I live in the US where it is still used. I support it, but it is far too liberal. It should only be used in the worse crimes and only in situations where the chances the person in question is innocent are near 0%.

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>>1665063
In other words we need more streamlined executions and not stupid legal clutter because of a marginal chance of "muh judicial errors".

>>1664997
It seems like family feuds would have the basic problem getting off the ground

>you had my son killed
>I'll kill you
>attempt to kill member of opposite family
>everyone, including the criminal justice system, and your prospective victim, knows exactly who you are and why you're pissed
>go to jail
>you made my uncle go to jail
>I'll kill you
>process repeats until family of the original executee is totally wiped out or gives up

That and most of the people in this country who commit murder have no idea who their father is.

I flip back and forth on the death penalty a lot just because it's a difficult issue.

On one hand, I don't like men doling out death to ones that aren't a threat. It's a very final solution to a criminal, one that offers no recourse if someone innocent was found guilty, not to mention it's essentially putting down a person like a rabid dog.

On the other hand, it's nice to be able to impose the ultimate punishment on truly heinous individuals. Bringing justice to families affected by crime is a wonderful thing, and permanently removing dangerous individuals is great too.

I'm aware that it serves no purpose as a deterrent to crime, but neither is prison after a certain point of criminal action. Speaking personally though, if I had the choice between life in prison or the death sentence, I'd probably pick death just because life in a cage isn't worth living (Assuming I got to pick the manner of my execution, that is.).

>>1661664
>citizenry
>informed

>>1665081

>marginal chance we literally might end an innocent man's life made more likely

Leave me out of it, wew

>>1661802
this

i agree with it in principle but implementation frankly isn't worth it.

>>1665136

A person who commits a crime fitting of the death penalty really is no better than a rabid dog.

>>1665136
>Bringing justice to families affected by crime is a wonderful thing

Who says that those families want the criminal executed, though?

Personally even if someone did something horrible like kill my boyfriend I wouldn't want them executed. I don't believe in vengeance in generally and especially not in such a permanent way.

Do you think that the use of the death penalty should be a choice for those afflicted by the crime, then? What if some of the people afflicted say the criminal should be executed and others say he shouldn't?

i think people sentenced to death should be forced to fight to the death on gladiatorial arenas instead of plain, boring execution.

>>1661555

[Citation needed]

Many of these studies were conducted during a death penalty moratorium, which is not the same as having no death penalty at all.

>>1665183
I'm innocent and don't mind dying to keep the system going smoothly.

>>1661538
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution#United_States

University of Michigan law professor Samuel Gross led a team of experts in the law and in statistics that estimated the likely number of unjust convictions. The study determined that at least 4% of people on death row were and are likely innocent. The research was peer reviewed and the prestigious Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences published it. Gross has no doubt that some innocent people have been executed.


"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

>>1667631

>Personally even if someone did something horrible like kill my boyfriend I wouldn't want them executed.

Guess he didnt mean that much to you then lol
Seriously though WTF? Sounds like you'd fucking date your BF's killer 'cos he was stronger' you vapid person. If i lost my significant other id want some form of justice and by that i mean body pieces even if it was a robbery gon awry.

What if your boyfriend was tortured,sodamized, died slowly in agony and then dissolved in an acid bath? saying you knew that, then how would you feel? still not angry enough for blood you fucking robot?

>>1667639
>[Citation needed]
Because it is not obvious that the US has insane crime rates.

>>1661614
Does it not?

>>1665103
>That and most of the people in this country who commit murder have no idea who their father is.
Top Kek

>>1667759
>Sounds like you'd fucking date your BF's killer 'cos he was stronger' you vapid person
Of course I wouldn't do that.

What I'm saying is that there is no gain to me from killing a criminal no matter how horrible the things he did are. I don't feel satisfaction after ruining someone's life just because he did the same to me, and I'm sure there are other people who think the same as me.

>>1667664
>things 16 year olds say

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>>1661555
As always, the US sides with the rest of the 3rd world countries.

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>>1667798

Alright, im sorry i lost my temper with you there.

I'm sure what your saying is true and i can understand not wanting to seem malicious or cruel but in regards to murder of your boyfriend who im sure you care for dearly, can you not see an injustice to them living? someone who was over all a good man now prematurly snuffed out whilst his killer does some prison but for all you know gets out and gets to live happily ever after with his true love?

In that case it would of course depend on the circumstances but to not want a more solid justice held seems inhuman on your part, at the very least overtly apathetic.

Then again if you think your boyfriends a bit of a dick I guess it would make sense in some way, id need to know more to give a reasonable deciding of the murderers fate.


You might feel im being brash and radicle saying you should execute a murder but I'd actully say its not that clear cut. Your example however does not cast your BF's killer in a good light though.

Was it a crime of passion out of jealousy? a random victim to a serial killer/rapist? very diffrent murders which would deserve very diffrent punishment.

>>1661664
>vigilantism
It's working in the Phillipines isn't it

>>1662466
t. John Wayne

>>1661538
Why not go full Enver Hoxha and bury murderers alive under the corpses of their victims?
Seems to work.

>>1661655
>Having your country filled to the brim with people who jerk off to others being guillotined

No thanks, r9k.

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Having a punishment like the death sentence to be reserved for only the most heinous criminals wherein the State reserves its right to punish for the sake of punishment in only a few, clear cut cases seems like a good idea. In the USA's case, there are too many biases and inconsistencies in law enforcement and in our criminal justice system for such a thing to work out as planned. I don't just mean racial and gender-based biases (although those exist), but also the inequality of legal representation, imperfect practices surrounding jury selection, that certain communities are more policed than others, that some judges are more likely to give harsher sentences than others.

When trying people for the death penalty, I think it's important to give people equal treatment and adhere to strict standards and rules. Ultimately the death sentence is too tied to who the victims, criminal and prosecutor are rather than the crime itself in most cases.

>>1661555

As someone in the US who is opposed to the death penalty because of the potential of accidentally executing innocents: fuck whether or not it affects crime rates, some motherfuckers just deserve to die.

>>1661538
My country used to practice it before the UN and American forced them to stop. That resulted in widespread murders and robberies. Now the crime is decreasing again since last year because we hang people by the neck until dead.

>>1668094
civil administration isn't based off 'muh feelings', sjw scum

>>1661673
>Killing them prevents them from breeding, and having more murders.
So is life in prison.
Killing them just satisfies a sense of justice.
One I completely have, hell I would love if it was proportional to the crime commited.
They're lit on fire if they killed someone with fire.
Pedophilia and rape is punished with sodomy and castration.
But I'm a vengeful person and keep my views to myself.

Couldn't you argue that the death penalty is to save money? I.E. Joe Blow killed his wife and instead of feeding him and locking him in a cage on the taxpayer's dollar you just hang him or something?

Or would a privatized prison be more agreeable, wherein they work in exchange for their food/shelter costs?

>>1662466
you tried.

Replace the death penalty with human genetic alteration experiments.

>>1669060
Nah. A pay per view game show!

>>1667759
>Sounds like you'd fucking date your BF's killer 'cos he was stronger' you vapid person

Did you get lost on your way to /r9k/ you moron? That's a ridiculous conclusion to jump to, not wanting someone dead doesn't mean you want to fuck them.

>>1661636
>Professional killers
Pffft hahaha, come spend 5 days in Brazil.

>>1661538
Honestly never understood it.

Surely a full life in prison is worse than death. I mean he is going to die in your prison either way.

I guess it costs a lot more.

>>1670734

Yeah. Nightly ass rapings would be pretty bad for the rest of your life.

Actually it costs more in court costs to put someone to death than it does to keep them alive for life.

Also the problem is that the court system is imperfect. Plenty of people on death row and in life that were exhonarated after new evidence came forward.

I mean if you been in prison for 30 years then "Woo!" I guess. If your dead then well sorry.

I don't think the state should have more rights than the rest of the population of the country.

I have a right to defend myself with lethal force if necessary, but that is to protect my own life. But I don't have the right to kill my neighbor if he killed his daughter in 2010, and I don't think the state should either.

>>1663711
>*Sigh*
This is a joke right?
And do you have any statistics on false positives leading to executions?
Didn't think so.

So what about the motherfuckers that basically certainly commited countless atrocities (here for instance it's really easy to know since sometimes the criminals film themselves doing their sick shit) should we be faggots and pretend that we need more proof than what's reasonable?

If the court is failing at convicting the right people that is an entirely different issue.

>>1665063
>Even more innocents
You're such a bleeding heart bitch, do you actually think there is a large proportion of false convictions followed by death sentence?

>>1670852
1 is 1000 too many

>>1667798
Yes it does you cock-gobbling liberal, it stops them from doing the same shit over and over again.

t. Someone who lives in a place with a shitty legal system with a horrible murder rate
The only deterrent here is the occasional cop shooting robbers up, and even then it doesn't work because "killing muh poor criminals they dindu nuffin they was good boys sure they just raped, killed and sold drugs but they was gonna turn their life around".

Honestly fuck you fucking whore gringos putos cocksucking sons of whores, if you motherfuckers stopped being such drug addicted whoresons we wouldn even have as many problems and then you export this liberal bullcrap?
Fucking off yourself.

>>1670852
>do you actually think there is a large proportion of false convictions followed by death sentence?

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/04/28/how-many-people-are-wrongly-convicted-researchers-do-the-math/

>"Gross and his colleagues collected data on the 7,482 people who were sentenced to death between 1973 — the first year of modern death-penalty laws — and 2004. Of these, 117 were exonerated, or 1.6 percent. But among these, 107 were exonerated while they were still on death row"

>"Fortunately it’s probably not many. Innocent defendants are far more likley to have their sentenced changed to life in prison than to be executed. Still, with an error rate of 4 percent, the researchers write, “it is all but certain that several of the 1,320 defendants executed since 1977 were innocent.”"

>several of 1,320 defendants executed since 1977 were innocent.
>several

>>1670864
Not when tens of thousands get murdered, there is no material means to keep motherfuckers in jail and the net gains would outweight the moral costs.
Fuck you.

>But 1 in 1000
If you honestly think that'd be the rate or that it's somehow less horrible to let someone to rot for 40 years in a jail cell then you're just a cunt.

>>1670888
And? Every time a murder gets capped here that is another 3 or 4 people being saved.
You're thinking with colourful "do what's righr and pretty" first world mentality.

>>1670893
>there is no material means to keep motherfuckers in jail
You realise death row inmates spend most of a life sentence in prison anyway?

>But 1 in 1000
Work on that reading comprehension. One is too many, whatever the rate is

>>1670908
Maybe your country is 3rd world because most people share your shitty mentality, have you ever thought of that eh cabron?

>>1670852
>bleeding

If you were a libertarian, you'd argue that we should not give the state the right to put people to death, but rather force them to respect property laws.

Killing people under castle law is a different thing altogether.

>>1670925
the safest countries in the world have the death penalty, e.g. hong kong, singapore, taiwan, japan, south korea.

punishment belongs to criminals, not the innocent. people follow incentives. society functions off of incentives, not your ideals.

>>1670943
What about New Zealand, Canada, Iceland, Denmark, Austria or Switzerland?

>>1661696

If you're the guy who made the original statement

>It is impossible to accidentally fuck up 3 times so its a fool proof system.

And then add the addendum "also we need to change the laws around whether you can get charged for 3 offenses" you probably didn't think it through.

>>1670943
>hong kong, singapore, taiwan, japan, south korea.

These are not the safest countries in the world. Besides, correlation doesn't equal causation, because Honduras also has the death penalty, and it has one of the highest murder rates in the world.

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>According to the DOJ, roughly 66% of all criminals are arrested again within 3 years
>Somehow killing these people will have no effect on the crime rate and criminals regardless of their severity are utterly unafraid of death and it wouldn't deter a single one of them
>mfw

The arguments against the death penalty are completely irrational. It's the standard "w-well it wouldn't deter anyone because of these reasons I can't substantiate" and misleading statistics.

I guarantee you if we started hanging a couple thousand criminals a year per state we'd see a drastic drop in crime rates. Kill every rapist, kill every murderer. Regardless of your opinion, keeping them alive in jail for 20 years paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so isn't ideal.

I know the current death penalty system is fucking stupid and criminals spend their whole lives on death row and actually cost us more, but I'd give them 3 sundays to say sorry to whatever god they've got, then hang them.

>>1670986
>killing all people who commit a crime

You're retarded.

>>1670908
>Every time a murder gets capped here that is another 3 or 4 people being saved.

Where do you live that every murderer on average kills or even wants to kill 3 to 4 people?

Can you cite any statistic whatsoever that validates that assertion?

>>1670953
these countries currently have public riots and rape gangs that run around in the streets.

>>1670969
police add extra charges because legal technicalities make conviction unreasonably difficult. it's part of the decay of the larger legal system. but the legal system decaying is not an argument for the LACK of need for punishment

>>1670976
they are though.

and please stop which this ocrrelation causation bullshit. I never said anything of the sort.

What I said is that it works. maybe it's not that ONLY thing that works, or can possibly work. but it's the thing that works the best.

so there ya go, doofus

>>1671018
>but it's the thing that works the best.

The only thing the death penalty does, is satisfying people's hunger for revenge. Nothing else.

And in many cases it doesn't even do that, because people have still lost their loved ones.

US does it but for basically high profile murder cases, like where child rape or brutal attacking is involved, or with serial killers. Applied only in some states where the degeneracy is high. We only really do lethal injection, and where firing squad, hanging, electrocution, and lethal gas are applied it's by choice and lethal injection is always an option.

>>1670996

>Rapists and murderers are all criminals

Might want to improve your reading comprehension before calling other people retards

>>1671043
>66% of all criminals blah blah
>somehow killing these people will have no effect on blah blah

Nah, my reading comprehension is fine, you're still just retarded.

>>1671018
>these countries currently have public riots and rape gangs that run around in the streets.

What?

>>1671025
wrong.

it keeps countries safe. previous anon brought up honduras. it's highly likely honduras would be EVEN WORSE without the death penalty.

why does america have cops? because we are ALREADY more dangerous, their society has different needs. the cops generally keep people safer

you fucking RETARDS think every society has completely identical needs. that's fucking eurocentric as fuck. sorry, buddy. not everyone has YOUR needs that you tell them to have.

I reiterate. the safest countries on the planet have the death penalty. It DOES work. it is not the ONLY thing that works, but it DOES work.

you people need to pull your heads out of your asses. you see only ONE solution. how is it that the leftists are the most narrow minded?

>>1671018
>These countries currently have public riots and rape gangs that run around in the streets.
I listed the 4 safest countries on earth plus switzerland at 7 and canada at 8

>What I said is that it works
Clearly it doesnt, death penalty correlates far more strongly with dangerous countries

>>1671059
>it keeps countries safe
Then why are the safest countries on earth overwhelmingly lacking the death penalty?

>>1671059
>you fucking RETARDS think every society has completely identical needs. that's fucking eurocentric as fuck. sorry, buddy. not everyone has YOUR needs that you tell them to have.

I'm all for calling och shit as eurocentric if it's needed but this is clearly not one of them.

>>1671068
This is a classic correlation/causation trap.

Does the death penalty cause violence, or does violence cause people to demand harsher penalties.

Either way, I'm in favor of large scale use of capital punishment.

Like, ideally, that would be the default punishment for all murders.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent

>>1671080
>This is a classic correlation/causation trap.
The original claim was that safe countries have the death penalty and therefore the death penalty makes countries safe, literally the same correlation/causation trap you just mention. All i've done is point out the claim is wrong anyway since the worlds safest countries generally dont have the death penalty while the worlds most dangerous countries generally do

>>1671059
>the safest countries on the planet have the death penalty

My country is probably one of the safest, if not the safest in the world, and we don't even have a full life sentence, let alone the death penalty. So no, you're wrong.

>>1671080
>Like, ideally, that would be the default punishment for all murders.

Lol that woudl lead to a lot of innocent people potentially getting killed or repentant people getting killed.

>>1671018

I live in Canada and I've not heard of any public riots of rape gangs, nothing in any way exceptional to the sort of shit America constantly puts up with.

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It's not about rehabilitation, it's about getting rid of people who cannot be rehabilitated.
The point of prison was originally to punish people then release them back into society "fixed." Frankly we utterly failed at that, and the very idea of a felony shits on the idea of releasing someone back into society.

The privitization of the prison system leads to death row being very very long. The whole point of death row was to quickly rid us of the most vile murderes, rapists and traitors at minimal cost to the taxpayer. Instead, because prison wardens get paid on how many prisoners they have at the moment, they want to keep people on death row as long as they possibly can, and of course lawyers love long drawn out appeals to get death row changed to life in prison. The longer they can drag out a court case the more money they make.

I don't think everyone who commits a murder deserves capital punishment, because crimes of passion exist and even premeditated murder can have a fairly justifiable cause.
>he raped my sister and she killed herself because of it
Technically still a crime of passion I suppose, but I digress.

I think capital punishment is useful if for nothing else to rid us of human excrement as easily as possible, but the shitshow that is the American prison and legal system has made it a million dollar two decade affair even for the most heinous of filth.

It costs taxpayers more money to go through a death sentence plain and simple. Local state governments bear the brunt of the death penalty. Since such a heavy sentence is taken into deliberation; trails are longer and more expensive. The defendant will usually try to bring higher courts into his or her case. Sometimes trials can be deliberated for years while the defendant is serving a cushy stint in death row (which costs more to run) all while draining capital.
I'm not a libshit who cares about humane treatment of prisoners. Most people who receive a death sentence are degenerates who deserve to die but the death penalty is worse for all of us in the long run. I really do believe that a crueler punishment is life term without the possibility of parole. Let them wither away and die old while the rest of the world forgets about them, can set a better example to people. None of that martyr shit, their legacy dies with them.

>>1671121
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

>>1671115
>The whole point of death row
What are you on about? Death row exists to make as sure as humanly possible that you dont execute someone inappropriately

But then you are just trying to be an edgy troll so who cares

>>1671115
>The point of prison was originally to punish people then release them back into society "fixed."

So what you're saying is that prison was never about rehabilitation at all.

>>1671115

>The point of prison was originally to punish people then release them back into society "fixed." Frankly we utterly failed at that, and the very idea of a felony shits on the idea of releasing someone back into society.

I think the trouble is a lot prison systems still try to punish INSTEAD of rehabilitate, or perhaps think punishment = rehabilitation.

People get it in their head that imprisonment is the punishment and that it should be as unpleasant as possible to deter crime. If that's the intent of putting someone in prison I'd rather we just do something like flog them, because it's the same idea. "Unpleasant result for crime means people don't want to commit crime."

If we're going to have a system of imprisonment, it may as well be to rehabilitate because as a punishment it's flawed and there are more cost effective ways to punish people. If they're imprisoned with the intent of rehabilitation it's currently flawed, because most ex-cons have a criminal record that stigmatizes them and makes it impossible for them to effectively rehabilitate into society. It's a common excuse for repeat offenses that their legitimate opportunities were extremely limited as a result of their criminal record.

>>1671068
kys my dude

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

every european country on that list over half a million population has a murder rate at LEAST double japan, with the average being much higher

"peaceful" canada's murder rate is literally SIX times higher than japan.

death penalty works, my zika brained friend

again, it's not the ONLY thing that works, but you seem to think it cannot. which you don't establish, or even try to. you justs hitpost

>>1671072
by population %, or by ranking the safest countries?

those are 2 different metrics. the standouts above 1 million, which is the second metric, favor the death penalty. by % of population living under either system in similar circumstances, it is ALSO favoring the death penalty.

the only way your statement applies is if you compare san marino to a country of 140 million people and say the cases are comparable. which they aren't.

>>1671078
it is though. these dickheads are saying the asian system DOESNT and CANNOT work.

it's legal colonialism.

they need to fucking kill themselves.

it's quite clear that the east asian system works, and these faggots are trying to impose foreign values on their governments.

>>1671135
No I'm saying that prison was originally about rehabilitation. The idea was people would wallow in self guilt and find god and come back into society "fixed." The reigning idea of the time being that they were "broken." It didn't really work.

If you ask me, places like Norway have a good idea on how to rehabilitate people and actually fix them. I think they go a little overboard with it but they actually have a good success rate at converting criminals to coworkers, so who am I to judge them really?

>>1671128
>you're an edgy troll because you're disgusted with the privitization of the prison system
Huh?

>>1671093
the safest european country over 1 million population is switzerland, which has DOUBLE japan's murder rate.

we can compare HOW well each system works, and the japanese system has SUPERIOR outcomes.

you can say, well, there's severa dozens of european countries that are all safe, therefore, ther are MORE successfull countries without the death penalty, but that's different from comparing HOW successful they are.

are you people literally retarded?

the median in europe has a murder rate four times that of japan. japan is CLEARLY safer.

>>1671159
>I think they go a little overboard with it

In what way though? Most prisons in Norway aren't like the shit advertised in a Michael Moore movie. Granted it's vastly better quality than American prisons, but most prisons are just a small room with a bed and a table.

>>1671159
>Places like Norway
So people like Brevik deserve rehabilitation despite the monstrosities of his crimes?

>>1671172

People like Brevik are by far the exception, you shouldn't dictate your entire legal system by extremely rare cases. That's like saying because one guy got in his car and intentionally ran down 30 school kids, anybody who hits a person with his car should be summarily executed.

>>1671167
Sure Japan is safer. But if you think that's because people are afraid of being sentenced to death you're wrong.

And Japan is an outlier. Almost all the other countries in the world with death penalty are shitholes.

>>1671167
The Japanese system is wildly corrupt and hides murders as suicides if they cannot find someone to convict for said murder.
No other country on earth has the 99.8% conviction rate the Japanese legal system does, it's a very broken, very anti defendant system.

>>1671171
I think they're simply too luxurious for a prison. They're certainly humane, and I wish our prisons looked a little more like theirs, but at the same time I don't want our prisons to look like a Norwegian one either. I have many reasons, but one of them primarily being how damn expensive it'd be to make that many. Norway hardly has that many people in prison, so they can afford to spruce up their jails a bit.
But we could seriously learn a lot from the way Norway does jail. Our system does not work and theirs does.

>>1671172
If you ask me, no, I think he should have been executed. But I'm not Norwegian, and they think he deserves life imprisonment. He gets to mull over his crime for the rest of his life and watch and see how little impact his stunt had in the long run.
Maybe he'll regret it, maybe he won't, either way he's stuck in a box for another 40 years which is hardly pleasant even if he has access to a PlayStation and books.

>>1671158
Except you also listed South Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan, all of which have worse murder rates than european countries with no death penalty and populations over a million. You alos failed to mention all the asian countries which have the death penalty and very high murder rates.

Its almost as if the death penalty on its doesnt really correlate to anything except that developed countries tend to lack it

>>1671167

Not any of the people you're arguing with, but Japan has restrictions on many other things as well. You could just as well make an argument for the merits of gun control or strict drug laws as the merits of capital punishment in regards to Japan's low murder rate, they're all based on correlation and any could be correct, perhaps all are correct, perhaps none are correct.

Tying Japan's low murder rate explicitly to the death penalty is similarly dishonest to comparing it to a lack of the death penalty. There are arguments in both directions, and countries with low murder rates as well as high murder rates have either enforced or banned the death penalty. It should be viewed more broadly than "this specific country vs that specific country"

>>1671191
>Our system does not work and theirs does.

Yeah, and it probably has something to do with people not living inside a cold, damp room with a hole in the ground to shit in, and 3 angry rapists.

>>1671184
you don't have a clue about how to fucking parse data, do you?

the NUMBER of countries doesn't matter. If I arbitrarily split korea into 10 different countries, then all of a sudden the number of countries with the death penalty that are safe could "win."

what matters is HOW LOW the murder rate goes, and the number of people living n any given system.

MORE PEOPLE live in SAFE conditions in the first world in death penalty countries. more people live MORE SAFELY in the first world i ndeath penalty countries

I agree with you that japan is safer for a number of other reasons as well. Such as being a "strict" culture.

OH WOW BEING STRICT IS RELATED TO LIKING THEEATH PENALTY WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT.

kill.
your.
self.

when you stop being strict, more killers emerge. the death penalty suppresses that.

>>1671180
Extremely rare cases that point out flaws in the legal system. Isn't that the whole point of law? Cases that expose flaws in the system are deliberated upon, revised, and applied?

>>1671199

It has to do with our calibre of criminal. American criminal culture is is never understood by Europeans.

>>1671200
>MORE PEOPLE live in SAFE conditions in the first world in death penalty countries

No they don't. America has 14000 murders a year. Apparently the death penalty does nothing.

>>1671200
Really though your entire argument rests on japan, and japan is clearly an outlier

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>>1661555

That's because we take far too long to carry out the sentence and don't make it a public spectacle.

If we went back to public hangings, that would be a deterrant.

>>1671228
>If we went back to public hangings, that would be a deterrant.
Doubtful, since murder rate in america is the lowest its ever been

>>1671191
OF COURSE. an non-european system is inherently corrupt. thanks for the ethnocentrism, my friend. that really convinced me to support your superior, aryan, ideals should be impressed upon subhumans.

thanks man.

>>1671196
that's wrong though. do your due diligence before you act like an idiot.

sk has a murder rate of .7, which is in par with switzerland (whose per capita income is 8 times higher.) .7, by the way, is HALF of france and germany (1.2), and a good deal lower than that of england.

singaore and hk are .3

taiwan's is somewhat high. keep in mind that their per capita incme is around YOU GOT ME

>>1671197
yeah, I'm not really trying to establish a correlation or causation argument. they argue it DOESN'T work, AT ALL.

I'm saying that the places with the ABSOLUTE LOWEST murder rates all have the death penalty. that's not either kind of argument. that's an argument based on the degree of effect.

>>1671216
>It has to do with our calibre of criminal

The calibre of criminal you have is definitely worse, but the problem really isn't that. The problem is that your religious culture is so obsessed with the notion of free will, that you don't understand that the people who commit crimes are a product of their environment and genes just like the people who become rich Wall Street executives.

So it all boils down to a culture of blame and praise; where in everyone who does something wrong really deserves to be punished, and the punishment is being locked up with other people like them so they can chew themselves to pieces.

>>1671204

But what do you do about that?

Is the solution to say murder gets you executed? Do you judge the average case by the example set by the exceptional case?

I think, perhaps, that mass murder can be its own crime which can address that issue. But "because Brevik killed 80 people we need to start killing everyone who killed 1 person" doesn't follow to me. Especially when Breivik was also exceptional in that he was caught red handed and then confessed, while many murderers aren't / don't. But then do you set the law "if you confess you're executed"? Why would anyone confess, if they think not confessing will get them out of execution?

Placing too much weight on exceptional cases can just make the legal system more flawed.

>>1671234
>japan has an extremely vindictive, cruel, assumption of guilt legal system that results in almost everyone accused of a crime being convicted of it, with the best legal defense lawyer in Japan only having successfully defended two of his hundreds of clients
>this is a perfectly fine and great legal system, and totally not abused by the rigid demand for all accused to be convicted
>surely such a system does not mislabel unsolvable cases, Japan's unreasonably high suicide rate is explained by other causes entirely
>surely such a system does not result in wrongful convictions of innocents to maintain their near 100% conviction rate they are so proud of
>surely all those police and lawyers and judges were just lying about how fucked the system is

Weeaboo go and stay go

>>1671217
america is not a first world country

>>1671220
japan is no more an outlier than san marino or iceland.

japan has the population of all of western europe combined.

south korea has a larger population than any single western european country.

THAT IS NOT AN OUTLIER EFFECT.

in fact, grouing a bunch of 100k per annum single city countires with populations of 50k and saying that "WEW LAD EUROPE IS SO SAFE" is an example of the outlier effect.

how are you people so illiterate?

Korea is literally ten times as large as switzerland, with 1/8 the gpd and has the same murder rate. HK has an even lower income, more poverty, people live in fucking cages, and teh same population forced into urban squalor, and they have HALF the murder rate

>>1671244
>anything that disagrees with my assumptions is corrupt, cruel, and vindictive
wow, way to go, open minded european-guy.

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>>1671249
>you criticize perfect nippon!
>you must be eurotrash!

>>1671249

>muh eurocentrism

He's a total shitlord, I agree.

>>1671234
You must be reading a different list. Switzerland is 0.5 and Germany is 0.9. Hong Kong is also 0.9. SK is beaten by Poland whose GDP is 2/3 that of SK.

Again the numbers dont really reinforce your point.

>I'm saying that the places with the ABSOLUTE LOWEST murder
Not true, since they are all small European states with no death penalty. If you want to insist on your >1million then of the top 10 5 have the death penalty and 5 dont, still not really helping

>>1671252
>japan is evil
>britain has DNA evidence available
>24/7 monitoring
>murders often caught on CCTV
>murder conviction rate is 50%
wow, good job, guys. I see the error of my ways

>>1671245
Unless you are talking about very small countries the population doesnt really affect the rate. Japan is an an outlier, having an extremely low official murder rate for a large country, SK is about comparable to any western european country, better than some worse than others

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>>1671278
So uh, you must be pretty bored to shitpost this badly.

>>1671269
I'm willing to acknowledge that numbers vary, and that they can paint an ambiguous picture.

what death penalty opponents NEVER acknowledge though, is that it CAN work. they unilaterally say it can NEVER work, and the evidence is pretty clear that BOTH work, though the margins of how and why differ.

>>1671245
>Korea is literally ten times as large as switzerland
A bit more than 5 times actually, not that it matters

>>1671288
>what death penalty opponents NEVER acknowledge though, is that it CAN work. they unilaterally say it can NEVER work, and the evidence is pretty clear that BOTH work, though the margins of how and why differ.
Not sure where your getting this, at least from this thread. As far as I can see the evidence suggest it doesnt really matter, death penalty or lack thereof doesnt on its own have any impact on the murder rate, certainly not a dramatic one.

So the argument from deterrence seems pretty weak

>>1671292
6 times*

>>1671288
>what death penalty opponents NEVER acknowledge though, is that it CAN work.

I mean, of course it can work. The question is how practical, and if it is worth it.

I mean, killing everyone by nuking the planet also stops all future murder.

>>1671282
do you people even understand what outlier is?

there is NO WAY to group the data in western europe into a configuration of 140 million people in which europe is as safe as japan. go ahead, take ALL of the lowest murder rate countries. you STILL can't do it.

it means they're doing something right in japan. it means japan isn't an outlier. outliers are EXTREME results that fit a MINORITY of the data in a way that is explainable by sampling effects. Japan is NOT a SMALL amount of data and the extremity of the results is NOT explainable by sampling. it's explainable by the fact that they DID something.

if I give 100 people a drug and 10 of them die reliably, that's not an OUTLIER. we can draw a solid conclusion from the data.

also, size of the country is directly explanatory of things like murder rates because of the way governments and poverty work. japan is remarkable DESPITE being pretty fucking big.

>>1671323
It clearly is an outlier if it has such a low murder rate compared to ALL other industrialized nations you sperg.

>>1671300
If I put a gun to your head, you will probably do what I say. Deterrence works, it's just a matter of by what margins it works.

Every policy analyst alive acknowledges that incentives matter. It's why we give scholarships to hard working people. It's why we praise people who are nice to us. NO ONE ALIVE would discard incentives.

except for some reason anti-death penalty people.

>>1671317
fair enough. of course, opposition to the death penalty is one of the biggest things that makes it impractical.

>>1671217

America also has 50 million blacks and 80+ million mexicans.

>>1671330
I'll post it one more time and then I think I'm done with this entire board.

extreme data can be explained by sampling error, or by EFFECT.

Japan is clearly not a sampling error. It's the LARGEST first world nation on the planet (I exclue america, personally.)

you can't EXCLUDE japan from the data the way you would a random trial because there are TOO MANY PEOPLE.

that means their low murder rate is an EFFECT. it might not be explainable by any particular policy, but it's not an outlier.

that would be like saying if half the class is iq 130, and the other half is iq 100. if it's HALF the class that's so smart, it's not an outlier. SOMETHING IS GOING ON.

as a side note, has there ever been a survey of /his/? you guys sound like a bunch of history majors with zero background in quantitative methods

>>1671323
Its already been pointed out that japans stats are skewed, and it could be an outlier in other ways, it might have a particular cultural/social environment that keeps the murder rate low.

The point is that it is clearly not the existence of the death penalty in japan that is responsible for their low rate, or other asian countries with similar justice systems would have similar murder rates. Once again, there is no real correlation between the death penalty and low murder rates

>>1671333
>If I put a gun to your head, you will probably do what I say
Thats coercion, not deterrence. Deterrence would be if you told me you caught me doing something you would shoot me

>>1671244
There's a reason the phoenix wright games have a lot of "this shit is actually true in Japan" in it.

Apollo justice was an avocation of the jury system or an ad of it.

>>1671345
>you can't EXCLUDE japan from the data the way you would a random trial because there are TOO MANY PEOPLE.

I'm not excluding it because there's too many people, in fact I'm not excluding it at all.

What I'm saying is that you are attributing the safety of Japan to the death penalty, which is retarded because there are plenty of countries on the planet that have the death penalty, and they are not safe at all, hence there has to be some other reason Japan is so safe.

Now, do I have to repeat that, or are you going to continue to be retarded?

>>1671333
Deterrence is the inverse of incentive, and deterrence appears only to have a significant impact on minor crimes

>>1671240
You mean that both have high incidences of pshcos and sociopaths?

>>1671333

>If I put a gun to your head, you will probably do what I say.

That's more a matter of explicit coercion than deterrence. Deterrence is more a matter of "You know I've put a gun to people's head in the past, do you want to take that chance?"

>>1671361
Both what?

>>1671349
there have literally been gag orders in courts from prosecuting rape and murder cases if they involve refugees.

the idea that only one side has skewed stats is fucking stupid.

I wish this board had ids, because if you check out my other posts I'll point out how this entire board more or less completely fucking misunderstands statistical terms.

I wouldn' strongly claim that the death penalty is the biggest reason for their low murder rates. Clearly it's their societal attitude as a whole. But that attitude involves punishing crime. If punishing crime is what keeps crime low in THEIR society, you can't just brush that off.

not every society works like europe with cuddles and hugs.

>>1671352
you're right. deterrence would be me saying, I have a gun in my pocket, and there's a 10% chance I'll shoot you if you don't do what I say.

coercion is a single example of using a strong incentive to make someone do what you want (not dying is an incentive.)

deterrence is using more vaguely applied incentives of a longer time scale.

you're welcome.

incentives work.

>>1671368
Detente is not an incentive and deterrence doesn't work on those with nothing to lose.

>>1671363
yeah, I clarified this above. but the posters here aren't very familiar with analytical arguments. they're just stubbornly agnostic about the direction of causality so "smoke weed man, let's just ban it."

that's not exactly very analytical

>>1671360
appears to, according to your data set.

like any real situation, there are a large amount of major crimes that it very clearly DOES deter, and also a very large amount of crimes it does not. ineffectiveness depends largely upon the effectiveness of enforcement, and being caught.

which means the imperfections in the system are not with the death penalty itself, but with the fact that law enforcement is not omnipresent.

with sufficiently applied incentive, most crimes by people who don't have mental illness would be more or less eliminated.

incentives function in degrees. markets are the most complete incentive system. but we can't turn courts into markets. but tha doesn't mean we get rid of legal deterrence.

>>1671368
>there have literally been gag orders in courts from prosecuting rape and murder cases if they involve refugees
So?

>the idea that only one side has skewed stats is fucking stupid.
You are the first person to suggest this

>But that attitude involves punishing crime
You dont have to kill someone to punish them, but

> I have a gun in my pocket, and there's a 10% chance I'll shoot you if you don't do what I say.
Thats still more coercion than deterrence

>incentives work.
They do. Deterrence is another issue, and as I said the evidence suggests it is most effective for minor crimes and negligible for major ones

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Me and my brother were going to take over the sychelles Islands and make it both the best place to do unethical research in the world and also make a gladitorial, runningman-esqe part to the island. The morally ambiguous science overlapping.

The deal was my brother owned the 'science' Islands whilst I was essentially grand warden.

My brother killed himself two years ago due to stress, he had a brilliant mind though and I bet he could have done it, with or without me.


Me, i gave up on life after he died but now I keep going because i still have a bit of a spark and still hold that dream we shared when we were young...

>>1671372
are you really trying to tell me war negotiations don't involve incentives and deterrence?

also, define "nothing to lose."

a starving person will become a terrorist if he knows he'll get court representation. is that "nothing to lose?" because clearly here deterrence doesn't work.

a starving person who will have his entire family killed in a retaliatory bombing, and be slowly tortured to death is a lot less likely to become a terrorist. so, it seems that in society, people with "nothing to lose" often DO have quite a bit left to lose.

>>1667918
pretty sure india has less executions than america total.

>>1671374
>so
so what I'm suggesting is that japan is IN FACT quite a bit safer than europe. probably even more so than the statistics indicate, as these kinds of phenomenon, such as mass rapes, dont' even happen over there

>coercion
there's no clear line drawn between coercion and deterrence. they're both part of incentives. and incentives work in degrees.

you're asking me to create a situation where everything works perfectly. that's stupid.

incentives work in degrees. because they work generally, this is what we build ALL human systems around. some laws like parking tickets are enforced by deterrence. some, like not being a terrorist, are enforced by coercion.

they're both incentives. we need a legal structure that discourages murder.

we do that with the death penalty.

>>1671373
>appears to, according to your data set
According to the data set of every major study done on the subject

>there are a large amount of major crimes that it very clearly DOES deter
Source?

>ineffectiveness depends largely upon the effectiveness of enforcement, and being caught.
I would tend to agree to some extent, but source?

>with sufficiently applied incentive
Deterrence is the opposite of incentive, please dont use them interchangeably

>>1671386
>so what I'm suggesting is that japan is IN FACT quite a bit safer than europe
It might be yes, at least as far as murders go

>there's no clear line drawn between coercion and deterrence
True, they are both using threat to achieve or prevent an outcome. The difference is that coercion tends to be immediate and trying to make you act while a deterrent is in the future and trying to prevent action. Just a semantic argument though it doesnt really matter

>>1671387
>every major
that's not the case, though. major crimes are often determined by incentive structures much larger than the punishment itself, such as extralegal rewards, or percieved risk.

in fact, in answering your third question
>http://jrc.sagepub.com/content/41/2/180.abstract
people are MORE deterred by the risk of getting caught than the harshness of punishment, so long as the risk is sufficiently high to leave the criminal, on average, worse off than the utility he gets from the crime

which is to say, when studies look ONLY at the harshness of the punishment, of course they find no causation, because they're discounting risk and expected utility.

you literally CANT leave that out.

people will commit crime if they're better off for it. that's riskXexpected benefit<punishment. the clearest example of this is in monetary crime. you will steal a million dollars if the punishment is one million dollars, with a less than ten percent chance of being caught.

this is literally the starting point of criminal research, but you guy are talking about it without even basic knowledge

>>1671412
>that's not the case
I didnt say every major study agreed, I said every major study formed the data set. When analysed the results suggest what I said, deterrents are effective for small crimes and far less effective for larger ones

Also props for sourcing a study based on my favorite ever data set

>>1671428
if you amass a dataset composed of hundreds of datasets which make the same uniform sampling error, which in this case is discounting TWO ENTIRE BEHAVIORAL VARIABLES you do not get a "better" dataset. you get a higher alpha for an equally bad data set.

again, I'm fairly convinced that 99% of you have never even taken a basic quantitative methods course

>>1671444
Who gives a shit about your quantitative data course? When met with an argument that literally makes your whole point moot, you refuse to answer, like here>>1671359

>>1671456
>I don't need to understand statistics in order to understand evidenciary arguments drawn from statistics
>here, to show you that data doesn't matter, I'm going to conflate japan with africa because they both have the death penalty
that's it. fuck this board.

fucking idiots.

>>1671463
Good, fuck off you pseudo-intellectual.

>>1671468
A real intellectual doesn't need math

>>1671476
A real intellectual responds to an argument. You haven't. You just ignore it and keep harping the same point with your fingers in your ears.

>>1671481
a real intellectual responds to a flawed and innumerate comment by addressing a false premise, rather than correcting the math

>>1671490
>a flawed and innumerate comment

It wasn't a flawed comment at all. Every ramshackle shithole country on the planet has the death penalty, so do you really expect me to believe that the fact that Japan has the death penalty has anything to do with it's low crime or murder rate?

Stop being a fucking retard, or alternatively kill yourself.

Everyone should be sterilized

>>1670943
Or maybe they are much better at catching criminals?

>>1661657
t.My name is anon and I don't really know anything about law

>>1668853
>lurking variables

>>1670986
The tragedy is that you lack appreciation of what justice really means.

>>1661694
>would you really trust the government to kill a human being?

But you trust them to keep major criminals *securely* locked away for life where they can do *no* harm?

>>1671158
>Japan
>Justice
pick only one

http://skeptikai.com/2013/09/28/the-whole-story-on-japans-99-conviction-rate-and-the-corruption-that-follows/

>>1661595
>and you pretty much force other citizens to be involved via proxy in the execution because a country is its citizens.

So basically what you're saying is ISIS is justified in bombing civilian non-government places in the west?

As an american, I think the death penalty should be an option, but I also think that we do it too often.

Like, there should be a maximum quota, and the court should have to demonstrate that the crime was particularly horrible. I mean force feeding people Drano horrible. Ordinary rapists and murderers can rot in prison.

Also, death by firing squad is the only "humane" way to execute somebody. Lethal injection is fucked up. If you are going to kill somebody, don't try to make it look like some sort of sterile medical procedure.

>>1670986
>I know the current death penalty system is fucking stupid and criminals spend their whole lives on death row and actually cost us more, but I'd give them 3 sundays to say sorry to whatever god they've got, then hang them.

You know this is an 18+ board?

>>1661538
Harshest punishment in my country is 40 years in prison. Honestly, i think we should at least have lifelong incarceration.
I'm quite on the fence about capital punishment. I'm leaning against it, but i do believe it should exists as a solution to extremely fucked up deeds. Something along the lines of kidnapping, torture, rape and finally butchering the victim (not just murder, but ruthless disfigurement), or a series of murders which is a clear sign of premeditation and intent... especially when the convict shows no remorse.
But then would you trust 1 judge, or up to 5 judges with this?
And then, which court? These things are sure to go to appeals courts, and maybe even supreme courts. Higher instance courts don't investigate further, and take the situation from the verdict as fact, and only deal in legal matters (which interests me how can a court of appeals overrule a verdict about genocide, but i'm straying from the topic here, and i don't know enough about the ICJ to pursue it further).
Who's to say some supreme court couldn't be politically biased in their verdict (i'm not talking about the US supreme court, but even that's in interesting topic, but again, not what i'm aiming for, i'm thinking more along the lines of the supreme court acting as a tool for the ruling political party, which i wouldn't say is the case).

Then there's the religious aspect to it.
If i become a judge one day, as a Christian i wouldn't feel comfortable deciding who gets to die.

>>1673463
Why would you even attempt such a stupid and grasping argument?