Sulla

He was right all along

>>1656361
What about Caesar's criticism of him as being a bit of a faggot for having given up dictatorial powers once he'd received them? Could we have had a Principate a few decades earlier if he'd just clung to power, taken all comers, and won out in the end?

>>1656361
>did nothing wrong
>literally became the template for "how to fuck over Rome by becoming a military strongman" utilised by usurpers down to the 14th century

Literal retard.

>>1656361
Literally set the precedent that would fuck over Rome for the rest of its history.

Italian rights matter

>>1656626
he thought he was doing the right thing like cincinnatus

>March on Rome
>leave on the brink of social collapse to attack Persia
>it falls apart as soon as he leaves
>has to wage a terrible civil war to get back to square one

Sulla was a fucking idiot and Marius would've kicked his ass if he wasn't so old.

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>>1656626
He wasn't a tyrant like Caesar.

Sulla knew he could be king, but he declined out of love for what the SPQR was supposed to be. Probably. Maybe he just couldn't be bothered with governing in old age.

Caesar, whether because he thought the republic was eternally fucked or because he dreamed of being sole ruler of the Roman world, said "fuck it, I'm in charge."

It's hard to tell if Caesar wished to be king from the start as a teenager or even as a child, but the fatal power struggle between the various elites naturally allowed for only one winner, such as Sulla before him ... there can be ONLY ONE

>>1658355
Sulla was far more a tyrant than Caesar, Caesar was famed for his mercy towards political enemies, Sulla was not

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>>1656361
>Sulla
>Nothing wrong

>>1656361
He was a dreadful hypocrite, he was as much a radical as Gaius Marius and Saturninus, only in a completely aristocratic (NOT reactionary, many of his reforms were certainly not conforming to the mos maiorum) way.
That said many of his reforms (the tribunals, provincial management, etc) were good and needed. Others were fucking shit (removing all power from tribunes of the plebs not that it lasted, handing back jury duty to senators only, raising the senate as the only legislative and indirectly executive power of the state in spite of having experienced many times how inert and incompetent the patriciate could be without an external legislative force like the assemblies).

>>1658442
Caesar used his clemency as a weapon. Many either didn't give a shit about it or killed themselves, like Cato. The honourable Cato loathed the idea of owing a favour to Caesar.
And see how well it treated Caesar to spare his enemies. They stabbed him.

>>1659486
>The hardliner Cato
fixed it for you

>>1656361
>Marius modernizes the Roman army, creates a uniform system of tactics, strategies, equipment, and manuals for soldiering that carried from the 2nd century BC to great one of the greatest and most long lived empires in history
>Sulla did nothing
Sulla a shit

>>1658442
Giving up your power willingly =/= tyrant

>>1659731
>Senate is reduced to a largely powerless role as figureheads who can only enact, decree, or make laws that Sulla allow
>proscriptions that cause the deaths of thousands in Rome and tens of thousands throughout the republic
>not a tyrant

>>1659742
"Ok I'm done now, you guys can do whatever the fuck you want, I'm not even dead yet"
>nah bro he's a tyrant

>>1659842
The definition of a tyrant is someone who wields complete and absolute power and authority. That is exactly what Sulla was to the letter.

>>1659959

Also king and emperor. Was he either of those? No. A tyrant is someone cruel and oppressive. Is it cruel and oppressive to get rid of evildoers to stabilize society long enough so that they stop killing each other, then give up power?

Thought so.

>>1659999
>A tyrant is someone cruel and oppressive.
Not necessarily, but that is exactly what Sulla was. Hence why his proscriptions in particular were memorialized as being particularly by Roman writers contemporary and after his period.

>evildoers
Sulla was an evildoer if you want to play it that way.

>>1660057
*as being particularly bloody