>She was declared a saint >Skeptics say she did more harm

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We just had this thread

>>1649485
The defense of her boils down to this:

1) She was the bestest. She healed the sick and no medicine.

2) She was flawed, but who is perfect? So let's celebrate this flawed person, instead of any random person we pick.

They are contradictory, but they will probably be used in paralell.

>>1649498
I looked through the catalog and didn't see any threads. CTRL + F gave results for neither "mother" nor "Teresa". I think I'm justified in making this thread. Or do you expect me to be on here 24/7 in case the thread mentioning her fell off the catalog 6 hours before I posted mine?

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She was a reactionary cunt. By the way, she herself referred to her hospices as "homes for the dying".

Also, we already had this thread, idiot born of idiots.

>>1649576
>hospices

Isn't that what the hospices essentially are?

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>>1649576
>she herself referred to her hospices as "homes for the dying".
But that's LITERALLY what a hospice is. A hospice specializes in palliative care, ie. care for the terminally ill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospice

Mother Teresa or no, anyone who goes to a hospice by definition goes there to die.

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>>1649587
Yeah, but why should people die undignified in pain.

Also, if God doesn't want to talk with her for 40 years, isn't that a sign that he's disgusted of her?

>>1649588
>A hospice specializes in palliative care

Her "hospices" consisted of rooms full of people left to die on mats. No medicine, no pain relief, no care of any sort beyond a gruel for sustenance.

>>1649637
Uh, you forgot God's care????

>>1649647
Yeah. And humanism. She saw them as humans. Not how the Big Pharma sees people. They just sees them as wallets to shoot drugs into.

>>1649637
>rooms full of people left to die on mats. No medicine, no pain relief, no care of any sort beyond a gruel for sustenance.
Not being facetious or anything, but can I get a citation on that?

>>1649637
>implying suffering isn't a gift from God

>>1649668
It's get even better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa#Baptisms_of_the_dying

>Baptisms of the dying

>Mother Teresa encouraged members of her order to secretly baptise dying patients, without regard to the individual's religion. Susan Shields, a former member of the Missionaries of Charity, writes that "Sisters were to ask each person in danger of death if he wanted a 'ticket to heaven'. An affirmative reply was to mean consent to baptism. The sister was then to pretend that she was just cooling the patient’s head with a wet cloth, while in fact she was baptising him, saying quietly the necessary words. Secrecy was important so that it would not come to be known that Mother Teresa’s sisters were baptising Hindus and Muslims."[3]

>Critics such as Murray Kempton have argued that patients were not provided sufficient information to make an informed decision about whether they wanted to be baptised and the theological significance of a Christian baptism.[4] Simon Leys, defending the practice in a letter to the New York Review of Books, wrote: "Either you believe in the supernatural effect of this gesture – and then you should dearly wish for it. Or you do not believe in it, and the gesture is as innocent and well-meaningly innocuous as chasing a fly away with a wave of the hand."[5]

>Or you do not believe in it, and the gesture is as innocent and well-meaningly innocuous as chasing a fly away with a wave of the hand.

>innocent and well-meaningly innocuous

With the same logic, I can grope children, because they don't understand the sexual element of my groping.

>>1649637
>muh pain relief
Yeah how dare the nun not go around doping everyone up to the gills with morphine she didn't have the qualifications to dole out!

>>1649687
>morally equating baptism with child molestation

Just sad.

>>1649687

>
With the same logic, I can grope children, because they don't understand the sexual element of my groping.

great analogue, you are a fucking genius omfg!

>>1649694
SHE COULD'VE HIRED SOMEONE TO DO IT! SHE GOT PLENTY OF INDULGENCES FROM WESTERNERS WHO FELT GUILTY FOR NOT CARING ABOUT THE POOR IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES.

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa#Questionable_relationships

>dictators, muderers and frauds

>catholic church

not even surprised

real christianity is those cults that strive in middle of all that islam hellholes, not those fat bourgeoisie church catholics

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>>1649707
>>1649708
Or steal all the money from a retarded, because they don't appreciate the value of money.

Still, a church that canonizes a person like this is ebola. Ebola all the way.

>>1649720
>tfw no arab christian qt 3,14 pie gf

>>1649694
Yes, it was questionable to staff her hospices with medically untrained nuns wasn't it?

And are you seriously belitting pain relief? If a person is dying of cancer it's absolutely necessary that they get some damn morphine, or at least something stronger than aspirin, which was the only pain reliever MT distributed.

As a Catholic looking at her from a theological perspective, she was pretty shitty.

Her entire logic was
>Jesus suffered
>When we suffer, we are like Jesus
>Therefore it is my holy duty to ensure people suffer as much as possible to make them as much like Jesus as possible

Her theology was bad (for one thing Jesus helped the suffering) and her sainthood is pure post-Vatican II political posturing.

>>1649668
>Not being facetious or anything, but can I get a citation on that?

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa#Motivation_of_charitable_activities

>He said that Mother Teresa's own words on poverty proved that her intention was not to help people, quoting her words at a 1981 press conference in which she was asked: "Do you teach the poor to endure their lot?" She replied: "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

>>1649729
Don't expect the catholic to give you a clear answer. Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu got modern medical care when she needed it.

>>1649730
>Jesus helped the suffering
You short-sell him. ;-) Jesus fucking cured them with heavenly magic, maan! If we can emulate Jesus with our science and technology, then healing the ill is making God's work. Not follow some shriveled slum tourist.

>>1649485
I just watched a really good documentary about her

title is "The letters" its on netflix

it's newish but looks like very few people actually saw it
good film though

>>1649794

if it's in netflix it's probably sjw-y as fuck

>>1649801
Yeah, painkillers are for FAGS!

>>1649801
it was kind of a chick flick
lots of deep emotional inter personal story

all in all still not bad if you're looking for that type of intimate personal portrait

>>1649727
It's bedtime, eurocuck.

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>>1649836
>implying your baby maker latina is a christian

>>1649722
That logic is still brain cancer regardless of your opinions on this situation. You should seek help suiting your faith or worldview then

>>1649485
Churchfags on /his/ will argue that she was running a hospice instead of a hospital marketed at the lowest of the low (untouchable caste) and giving them a place to die away from the streets, so this fully justifies her mistreatment of the patients as they had no one and just administered palliative care. Which is quite ironic, as palliative care, while not intended to extend the life a person any more than the necessary to prevent said patient from suffering and she did just that by flat out refusing to administer proper care (no medical training provided to the nuns in her order other than the basics, shady administration which benefited from the permissiveness of the Indian government, no medication available to alleviate the suffering of the patients as durrhurr suffering makes them closer to Jesus, forced conversions, abuse of patients and their relatives and the list goes on)

>>1649720
Who let the proddy out?

>>1649708
>>1649707
But Catholic priests actually do this.

>>1649485

>unbiased

There's nothing wrong with biased sources as long as you're capable of taking the bias into consideration.

Here's an article about Mother Teresa by the patron saint of godless edgelords:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

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>>1649485

>>1649587

Yes, they are. But she made little effort to keep people comfortable, only giving a bare pallet to die on and not administering any pain killers. According to some who worked with her, many people taken to her hospice needed truly only very basic care to recover, but were not provided any and were simply allowed to die.

>>1649694

Many nuns are qualified medical personnel (the two killed in Mississippi recently were both nurse practitioners). Theresa simply had no regard for healing and viewed suffering as becoming closer to God (except for herself - she traveled to Europe for high quality care as she grew infirm in her old age).

>>1650391
So because some nuns are qualified that means those who aren't shouldn't offer care for the sick?
Nice logic.

This hate for what Mother Theresa is the definition of first world problems. Oh all she did was give them a place to sleep and food and water? Wow compared to dying uncared for out in the streets of India that's horrible. It's like you don't want them to get eaten by packs of wild dogs or something!

>b-but she could have done more once she got more money
So the work she was doing before was worth attracting international donations but then magically stopped being praiseworthy because she didn't transform her operation into something she wasn't qualified to do?
>b-but she could have hired people that were qualified!
How exactly is she is she more qualified to hire nurses and over see the level of medical care idiot fedora fags are asking for in this thread?
I mean you all realize that's a whole field in itself right? They don't just let anybody off the street over see medical facilities.

Mother Theresa helped the poor of India in the manner she was qualified do so, and as usual the edgy contrarians of the world have done their best to cynically drag it down into the mud and turn it into something to be morally condemned.

>people died without luxury waaah!

Bunch of slack-jawed utilitarian faggots ITT.

It's another of Bergoglio's buddy Christ PR schemes.

>>1649485
Much of the skepticism is intentionally antagonistic to the point of being outright disgusting.

>>1650258
So do step parents & uncles.

>>1649978
Are you some kind of convertit? Because they are all about muh intellectuaiticity tradition in muh church, yet mostly comes out as some kind of poseurs. Or was you born into it and cannot even explain the three most basic and important tenets of your belief?

Either way, you can do wrong against someone without that someone knowing it's bad for them.

>>1650346
And yeah, she may have treated the undesirables a bit better than the indians would have. But not enough good.

And the nuns being ignorant about what is good medical care? Ha-ha-ha! For Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu, nothing but the most modern medical care was good enough! In for a penny, in for a pound.

Anyway, I'm kinda happy that she has been canonized. Another bad saint image to deface.

>>1649720
>using the term bourgeoisie
>>>/cuckmunism/
>>1650199
Who let the papist out of his cuckshed?

>>1649485
>
she existed
she did stuff
she was beatified when the church was being rapped in the 90s for pedophilia.

>>1649836
sorry anon
>tfw no sheboon nigger GF with manface and a propensity for eating chicken an watermelons.

>>1649687

>Either you believe in the supernatural effect of this gesture – and then you should dearly wish for it. Or you do not believe in it, and the gesture is as innocent and well-meaningly innocuous as chasing a fly away with a wave of the hand

Or I believe that it would be an abomination in my God's eyes and condem me to my religions equivalent of Hell...

She actively wanted others to suffer because in her twisted logic, it brought them closer to jesus. She thought suffering was some sort of blessing to bring us closer to him.

And she didn't allow relatives to visit the dying in her hospices. Just an all around insane woman.

>>1651653
This is popular false accusation based on a misconstrued understanding of the Catholic belief of Redemptive Suffering and trying to explain why they weren't given pain killers. It's conjecture. In reality, her imagined masochism was just people unaware of proper church teaching and taking it the wrong way and her lack of modern palliative care comes from the fact that modern palliative care was simply not available in India until after Teresa's death.
>relatives

Can't comment on this, don't know a thing of it.

Which one of you posted this over on /tg/?

>>1649485
I don't know for sure, but her viewpoint sure doesn't mesh well with mine at all.

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I really wish people would read this.

>>1649687

What are the sources for this? A forced baptism or one done through trickery would not be valid, and I think a nun would know this so what's the motivation?

>>1651850
>I really wish people would read my self-fellating catholic apologism

I bet you would. Well I'll save everyone else the trouble and let you know that it's exactly what I've described. I mean holy shit.

>because the Church is a sign of contradiction: Innocent and Despised

Innocent? Fuck me.

>>1651625
Then you must have a shitty god Pajeet.

>It's a westerners who usually laugh at 3rd world suffering act offended when someone dedicated their life to caring about 3rd world poor

None of you fags would even spend a minute in the slums of India.

>>1651886
>who usually laugh at 3rd world suffering
Source? This is literally the opposite of what is happening.

Out of curiosity, do you live in a 3rd world country? Is this what they tell you that westerners do? Spend their days laughing at the 3rd world?

Nothing to see here. Please move along.
https://youtu.be/65JxnUW7Wk4

>>1652066

This stuff is garbage. Why don't you look at what actual historians have to say about it >>1650346

>>1652076
>This stuff is garbage
>Posts a random blog
good one!

>>1652090

It's not just a random blog. Its from one of the few places on the internet that's actually worth a shit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1hn2eh/askhistorians_consensus_on_mother_theresa

>>1652094
>reddit
I actually laughed out loud.
You made my day, anon.

>>1650782
>How exactly is she is she more qualified to hire nurses and over see the level of medical care idiot fedora fags are asking for in this thread?
>I mean you all realize that's a whole field in itself right? They don't just let anybody off the street over see medical facilities.
Well... While I do agree it's stupid to blame her for people dying IN A HOSPICE, if there was some question as to people who were by no means so sick as to die, moving in, she shoulda asked the Church to send her a nurse to do a once-over before admitting people. (God knows there's enough doctors and nurses working for the Church.)

Not that it makes her a bad person, just either foolish or negligent. (Or as we say on /tg/, Neutral Good/Stupid Good.)

>>1649687
>Walk into CATHOLIC hospice
>Get baptised on death bed
BIG FUCKING SURPRISE

...It's not as if it were a government owned and operated hospice in some nation with a separation of church and sate rule.

>I can grope children, because they don't understand the sexual element of my groping.
I-I don't even...

>>1652097

Why? It's just a forum.

I tried reading Hitchens book about St. Teresa but there must have been a problem with my e-reader because it didn't display a single note or citation.

>In the promotion flyer accompanying the book, the publisher delights in saying that Hitchens outlines Mother Teresa’s relationship with “Paul Keating, the man now serving a ten-year sentence for his central role in the United States Savings and Loan scandal.” Wrong, the man’s name is Charles Keating, but what difference does that make to a publisher unconcerned with verifying the sources of its authors?

>Keating gave Mother Teresa one and a quarter million dollars. It does not matter to Hitchens that all of the money was spent before anyone ever knew of his shenanigans. What matters is that Mother Teresa gave to the poor a lot of money taken from a rich guy who later went to jail. But her biggest crime, according to Hitchens, was writing a letter to Judge Lance Ito (yeah, the same one) “seeking clemency for Mr. Keating.”

>It would be rather audacious of Mother Teresa if she were to intervene in a trial “seeking clemency” for the accused, unless, of course, she had evidence that the accused was innocent. But she did nothing of the kind: what she wrote to Judge Ito was a reference letter, not a missive “seeking clemency.”

>“I do not know anything about Mr. Charles Keating’s work,” Mother Teresa said, “or his business or the matters you are dealing with.” She then explains her letter by saying “Mr. Keating has done much to help the poor, which is why I am writing to you on his behalf.”

>Now why this character reference, written of someone who was presumed innocent at the time, should be grounds for condemnation is truly remarkable. It reveals more about Hitchens than his subject that he brands her letter an appeal for “clemency.” It was nothing of the sort, but this matters little to someone filled with rage.

I always thought atheists were against this idea of a blind faith but they seem to give it to Hitchens without reservation.

>Here’s another example of how Hitchens proceeds. He begins one chapter quoting Mother Teresa on why her congregation has taken a special vow to work for the poor. “This vow,” she exclaimed, “means that we cannot work for the rich; neither can we accept money for the work we do. Ours has to be a free service, and to the poor.” A few pages later, after citing numerous cash awards that her order has received, Hitchens writes “if she is claiming that the order does not solicit money from the rich and powerful, or accept it from them, this is easily shown to be false.”

>Hitchens isn’t being sloppy here, just dishonest. He knows full well that there is a world of difference between soliciting money from the rich and working for them. Furthermore, he knows full well that Mother Teresa never even implied that she wouldn’t accept money from the rich. And precisely whom should she–or anyone else–accept money from, if not the rich? Would it make Hitchens feel better if the middle class were tapped and the rich got off scot free? Would it make any sense to take from the poor and then give it back to them? Who’s left?

>Hitchens also hates Mother Teresa’s itinerary, charging that there is a political motive to her travels. For example, in 1984 she went to comfort the suffering in Bhopal after a Union Carbide chemical explosion. While there, she asked that forgiveness be given to those responsible for the plant (the Indian government was mostly to blame, though Hitchens, the inveterate anti-capitalist, cannot admit to this). So what does Hitchens make of this?

>He takes great umbrage at her right to ask for forgiveness, questioning who “authorized” her to dispense with such virtues in the first place. For Hitchens, her refusal to answer this question (never mind that she was never asked in the first place) is proof positive that her trip “read like a hasty exercise in damage control.” Damage control for whom? Union Carbide? Does Hitchens even have a picture of Mother Teresa and a Union Carbide official to show?

So what's the reasoning behind not allowing medicine to be utilized?

Does this remind anyone of the story where Jesus and His disciples are picking grains on the Sabbath? And the religious leaders told them they were sinning when they were just hungry?

What's so bad about giving people medicine?

>>1649637
The alternative would have been lying on the side of the road between garbage and dirt while being eaten alive by rats

>>1652106
yes it is just a forum, but it was introduced as
>one of the few places on the internet that's actually worth a shit

>>1649602
>painless death is somehow more dignified
>suffering is inherently bad

>>1652144
>So what's the reasoning behind not allowing medicine to be utilized?

Nobody stopped medicine from being used, the problem was that there wasn't enough of it, and that the "untouchables" in many cases couldn't get access to it even if they weren't terminally ill. The purposes of her order was to build hospices, not provide treatment. That doesn't mean they didn't treat what they could it just means that wasn't their purpose. It was a place that people could go to so they didn't have to die alone in the streets.

You should refer to #5 here >>1651850

Redemptive suffering doesn't mean causing suffering. That's a ridiculous but common misunderstanding from secularists and it isn't helped by Hitchens making unsubstantiated claims.

>>1652155

AskHistorians is one of the few places in the internet that's worth a shit.

>>1652144
Nothing at all to anyone not engaged in defending M.T. Honestly, if she were doing the same thing a century or two ago, there wouldn't be a controversy, but she was equipped with the cash and resources to do better and for whatever reason (her philosophy, incompetence, etc), neglected doing so.

Not worth getting worked up over the affair to me. She could've done more, but couldn't/wouldn't and the people she helped wouldn't have gotten "help" otherwise.

>>1652165
Pathological hatred of r*ddit will persist for a while. Fast/populous board cross posters wont get the message that there are good things to be found there quickly.

>unbiased
>sources

>>1652117
It's called journalism. Do you complaint about your news not being properly documented as sell?

>>1652180

I get irritated when journalists make things up, yes.

>>1652166
>>1652162
I see

Moral of the story: Should do my own research instead of taking brief looks at some quick accusations. Thanks man.

>>1652166
Yeah, exactly, not like anyone else was doing anything. For all knew she did her best.

But yeah, its always easier to point out the flaws in hindsight. With that said, they could learn from this and opt to bring in some advisors I guess.

She is without a doubt a saint in the religion of cuckianity and in the cucktholic church.

She showed that women can also be infertile cuckolds.

>>1649485
She allowed people to just lay in a house and die in horrible agony instead of treating them, because she, like all monotheists don't believe death is the end.

You see the same attitude among Jihadi suicide bombers.

>>1652220
>get cured
>go back to being a helplessly poor minority in a country of the helplessly poor
She should've just had her nuns give the "patients" a blow job and a bullet to the back of the head

>>1649485
>Atheist arguing about canonization

Why are you arguing over a catholic matter, this does not concern you

>>1652098
Because she didn't kidnap people off the streets; those who believed they were dying went there. If you think you're dying, you most likely are

>>1651418
>And yeah, she may have treated the undesirables a bit better than the indians would have. But not enough good.
Says the guy who has literally done nothing for them.

You don't even give a shit about them, you're just a fat edgy atheist who's rebelling against mommy and daddy

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>>1649659
No one is trying to make Big Pharma into saints. The argument is if she was a cunt or not

>>1652220
These past two threads have made me realize that most atheists are either illiterate or just plain dishonest

>>1652539
Quite a conclusion to draw from a thread on 4Chan you fucking dolt.

>>1652544
>fugg he found us out

>>1649485
She ran hospitals (If an institution with a 40% mortality rate is actually classifiable as a hospital) like prisons, particularly cruel and unhygienic prisons at that. Children in her care were tied to their beds to prevent them misbehaving. She let the terminally ill (and even those with illnesses that would have been curable if her 'hospitals' were run better) die without pain relief because suffering bought them closer to Jesus
Most of the money donated to her causes was filtered back into the (already exceedingly rich) Catholic Church, or used to expand her 'charities' to new regions, rather than actually helping those in her care, many of whom were starving and lacking basic medical care... Basically she didn't love the poor and hungry, she loved poverty and hunger, she saw suffering as a grace and despite being lauded as a humanitarian given the fame and donations she had at her disposal did relatively little practical good.
She befriended and defended a genocidal dictator, Jean-Claude 'Baby Doc' Duvalier, and accepted donations from him of money extorted from the very poor she was supposedly helping as well as drug dealing and body part trafficking.

>>1652554
She accepted and refused to return profits of criminal activity. Including one and a quarter million US dollars in cash and use of a private jet from convicted racketeer and fraudster Charles Keating who stole over $3 Billion from US taxpayers in the 80's and 90's... Upon his conviction not only did Mother Teresa and The Catholic Church refuse to return the money they had received from him, Mother Teresa actually tried to use her influence to have him let off or at least sentenced leniently.

She publicly defended known pedophiles from within the clergy, including trying to use her influence to have leniency shown in sentencing of convicted child rapist Donald McGuire and campaigning to have him reinstated to the priesthood and allowing him to continue his work... even though this work would inevitably bring him into regular contact with children.

Because so much of the money she raised went to the church not the poor she hated waste in her hospitals, insisting staff reused needles until they were too blunt to continue using... even in known HIV high risk areas.
She directed a mere 7% of the monies her charities raised directly those she was supposedly helping... With much of the rest ending up in secret bank accounts and as yet still unaccounted for.

She routinely baptised those dying under her care regardless of their own wishes or religious beliefs.
She opposed both abortion and contraception, even in cases of incest, abuse and rape.
She praised and supported Ireland's anti-divorce laws... even in cases where spousal abuse was apparent, forcing countless women to live out lives of slavery and torture.

Basically pretty much everything about her was evil, but the churches PR machine didn't have a hard job spinning a kindly looking old women stood amongst some of the poorest people in the world to look lie a saint, and once that side of the story was cemented in the press it became all most people saw of her.

>>1652554
>>1652556
Possible sources:
http://www.nouvelles.umontreal.ca/udem-news/news/20130301-mother-teresa-anything-but-a-saint.html
Les côtés ténébreux de Mère Teresa
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/25/why-to-many-critics-mother-teresa-is-still-no-saint/
Christopher Hitchens - Mother Teresa: Hell's Angel
http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/i-dont-think-she-deserved-the-nobel/284270
http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/on-the-same-page/284274
http://newamericamedia.org/2013/03/city-of-doubts-kolkatas-uneasy-love-for-mother-teresa.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa
http://www.salon.com/2016/01/03/the_wests_big_lie_about_mother_teresa_her_glorification_of_suffering_instead_of_relieving_it_has_had_little_impact_on_her_glowing_reputation/
http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/10/forbes-india-mother-teresa-charity-critical-public-review.html

>>1652554
>She ran hospitals

Right off the bat you couldn't be any more wrong. She ran hospices. Those are literally just places for people to die.

>>1652560
Hospices then. Still makes everything she did inexcusable, hospices are supposed to be a place to die in peace and comfort.

>>1652511
>just a fat edgy atheist who's rebelling against mommy and daddy

You guys fucking love this fedora meme. It's your bread and butter.

>>1652539

Yeah it's getting to be embarrassing. They're STILL citing Hitchens.

>>1652571
>mommy mommy the religious people are bullying me again

>>1652570
Well they were provided shelter, protection and slight pain relief; she could have done more sure; but she did was no one else was doing at the time

>>1652556
>She routinely baptised those dying under her care regardless of their own wishes or religious beliefs.
Completely fucking wrong, my fedora friend.

Not only is there no proof of this, but as a nun she would know that Church doctrine is that a forced baptism is no true baptism at all

>She opposed both abortion and contraception, even in cases of incest, abuse and rape.

Wow it's like she was a NUN or something

>>1652581
Haha, very "witty" my man, well memed.

>>1652581
>think the entire affair is rotten
>butthurt christians start spamming their zoot suit hats.

>>1652598
fatty detected
>>1652601
It may be; but the fact remains she did more than you have

>>1652606
Too bad I don't care at all. I just help the local poor and don't do it because I believe that suffering brings them closer to god, I do it because I think they need help getting their shit together.

>>1652606
I'm not fat, but if I were I'd be more likely to be religious, statistically.

>>1652613
>I believe that suffering brings them closer to god

First of all, that's not what redemptive suffering means, and second if St. Teresa believed what you think she believed then what was her motivation for helping people at all? If her goal was to let suffering happen then she would have done nothing.

>>1652621
Sure thing porkchops

>>1649485
The issue isn't just Teresa herself, it's the culture of charitable stagnancy. Rather than trying to meaningfully improve a society's quality of life, people like Teresa simply make the status quo more tolerable/acceptable. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, and all that.

>>1652704
What happens if their condition is fundamentally unimproveable?

>>1651857
Charlemagne forcibly baptised thousands of Saxons before he had them beheaded.

>>1651886
On social media none of the third worlders know who the fuck Mother Theresa is and think this is idolatry
So there's her legacy. Just an excuse for first worlders to pat themselves on the back

>>1652579
>They're STILL citing Hitchens.

Well he is right though. And religcucks never seem to bother with listening.

>>1652097
Ask historians is actually legit through, or are you gonna tell me the opinions of actual PHDs is irrelevant because of what website they post on?
Traditionally 4chan never had a problem with such subreddits, newfag

>>1652958
Hitchens was wrong about a lot of things including MT

>>1652943

Are you trying to say that forced baptisms are valid?

>>1652943
>a LAYMAN did it
>means the CHURCH will do it

Never go full retard

>>1652954
>indians
>not knowing who Mother Theresa is
lmao

>>1652958
M8 he never even stepped foot in Calcutta, not to mention he has repeatedly been BTFO, and let's not forget that he doesn't even understand the basic tenets of Christianity

>FORGIVING those who harmed you? clearly a corporate shill

>>1652975
>M8 he never even stepped foot in Calcutta, not to mention he has repeatedly been BTFO, and let's not forget that he doesn't even understand the basic tenets of Christianity
unlike him my family is from calcutta, and mother teresa was
a drop in the bucket as far as caring for the sick and dying goes.
but I suppose that >>1652954 has it right. Its just a bunch of first worlders patting themselves on the back and giving a meme prize to an old lady who became much more popular than many others.

>>1652966
So, if he is wrong, explain what was wrong with my post.

Did she, or did she not operate homes for the dying in Calcutta? Was it a hospital? No, it was a place where people could die, because she believed that the suffering people experienced would be redeemed after death.

If you think this is a caricature of what she did, go ahead and explain how it is.

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>people sourcing and promoting Hitchens' book on Mother Teresa in this thread

>>1653001
>Did she, or did she not operate homes for the dying in Calcutta?
she did, and you must realize that's exactly what it was

>Was it a hospital?
no, and pretending it was is one of hitchen's errors
he pretends the hospices were hospitals and then judges them for not giving adequate medical care which was never the intention

>she believed that the suffering people experienced would be redeemed after death
whatever she believed the fact is that she took in people that were literally dying alone on the streets, considered untouchable by their own people, cleaned and cared for them and gave them some dignity before their deaths

>>1653020
>gave them some dignity before their deaths

How is it dignified to die from diseases that could've been cured, if she actually used all the money she earned on that instead?

>>1653020
>considered untouchable by their own people,
of course.

A large multicultural city had people who were designated as untouchable and easily identifiable based on certain characteristics.

Fucking moron;

>>1653029
>if she actually used all the money she earned on that instead?
what if she used the money on feeding the poor in Africa?
what if she spent it on vaccination research instead? would that have done more good?
there are and were other catholic charities that focus on medical work but hers simply wasn't one of them

>>1653035
Calcutta was a very poor place at the time and there was a clear hierarchy based on Hindu ideas there
there is no debate to be had that they took in tons of people dying alone in the streets

>>1652958
>Well he is right though

He made up a lot of shit like Mother Teresa forcing baptism on people. Not only is there zero evidence for this but she wouldn't even have a motivation do to it since forced baptisms aren't valid. There would be no point for a nun to trick somebody into accepting a baptism. If you read his book you would see that there are no notes or citations to be found and he is very misleading if not just straight up lying about things.

See here for some examples:

>>1652127
>>1652133
>>1652138
>>1650346

>>1653029
BECAUSE SHE WASN'T RUNNING A FUCKING HOSPITAL, SHE WAS RUNNING A FUCKING HOSPICE.

LET ME REPEAT IT FOR YOU RETARDED ATHEIST FUCKS

HOS

PICE

THERE ARE OTHER ORDERS THAT SERVE AS HOSPITALS; WHICH YOU WOULD KNOW IF YOU EVEN BOTHERED TO RESEARCH THIS SHIT INSTEAD OF MINDLESSLY PARROTING A DEAD MAN'S WORDS

>>1653068
Man you need to calm your blood pressure.

And you need to work on your reading comprehension.

>>1653057
>would that have done more good?

More good than simply allowing people to die in pain inside a house?

Yes. Absolutely.

>>1653057
>there was a clear hierarchy based on Hindu ideas there
yeah, a place with a substantial christian minority, several muslim workers and bengali middle class had a clear hindu hierarchy as if hindu hierarchy is a monotonous and uniform and there was no impact of bengali culture in calcutta.

But hey, I am sure you know much more about calcutta than me, I just live here.

>>1653068
>place for poor people to die
>instead of ODing them so that they die in peace they are treated with basic over the counter pain meds that do precisely nothing.

>>1653080
I'm mad because every fucking thread the same fucking things need to be repeated because atheists here are the most dishonest fucks possible

And I did read it, it's just a fucking stupid argument. There are other charities and orders to whose incomes Theresa earned is fucking peanuts; she saw that such a thing was needed and created one

>>1653087
>instead of ODing them so that they die in peace they are treated with basic over the counter pain meds that do precisely nothing.
You are literally asking nuns to break their vows and go against their beliefs; there is simply no hope for you

>>1653083
>More good than simply allowing people to die in pain inside a house?
>Yes.

Mate, many would be dying out in the street with no aid otherwise. I'm not sure how you could say that it is better that money be spent on more research than them being given a hospice to stay in.

Also

>allowing people to die in pain
>opoids
>india

pls

>>1653083
then stop wasting money on your internet connection, give it all up and go to India to devote your life to it
I understand some atheists don't see value in dignity and comfort in a person's last days but rest assured those people preferred it to the streets or they would have refused aid

>>1653087
are you denying that these people existed and there was so much poverty that people were living and dying on the streets with little or no care?

>>1653087
>seriously suggesting that a nun administer euthanasia
Godless fucking heathen

>>1653083

Copy and paste from the last thread

>Mother Teresa concerned herself with the poorest of the poor. Not just the poor or those struggling to make ends meet, but those who were beyond extreme poverty. The bottom of society with no chance of achieving prosperity in this life. If she created hospitals instead of hospices, and perhaps provided state-of-the-art care, by default her facilities no longer become places for the poorest of the poor. People who are better off already would flock there, because they feel deserving of their care. Even if she changed the facilities only slightly, the people seeking care would no longer be just the poorest of the poor. In a similar vein, in my town there are two hospitals and one is known to provide better (and more expensive) care than the other. People who can afford it would go to the better hospital because they wouldn't risk "sketchy" medical care. So who goes to the sketchy place? Well, the ones who can't afford anything better.

>I don't know if Mother Teresa was actively thinking about this asymmetry of information in her ministry. She just served the poor. But it's an important reality: The structure of her facilities allowed the poorest of the poor to not die alone. Any changes to her plan would have necessarily abandoned these people, unless there was a way to treat literally everyone.

With the situation in India and the caste system being what it was, with all likelihood if she provided top of the line medical care the poorest of the poor would have been served and they would have dying in the streets. These were "untouchable" people that were rejected by society. If higher castes frequented her hospice instead than the untouchables would have a place there.

>>1653102
>with all likelihood if she provided top of the line medical care the poorest of the poor would have been served

I meant to say they wouldn't have been served

>>1653098
>are you denying that these people existed and there was so much poverty that people were living and dying on the streets with little or no care?

They existed
It had nothing to do with hindu ideals
Calcutta had a lot of people because it was the primary economic center in eastern india at that time. It still is a big city.

>>1653102
>With the situation in India and the caste system being what it was, with all likelihood if she provided top of the line medical care the poorest of the poor would have been served and they would have dying in the streets. These were "untouchable" people that were rejected by society. If higher castes frequented her hospice instead than the untouchables would have a place there.
And faggots like you dare to talk

>they wuz untouchable
>da higher castes are da richest and they kick Lower caste people out of hospitals

For a board that talks a lot about history, /his/ knows surprisingly little.

>>1653110
I get it now.
You're just butthurt because you think that people are blaming Hinduism for the plight of the poor in India.

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>>1653092

>antagonizing those with good intent and good action is a pet peeve of mine
>I've been perpetually mad for a day or two now

>>1653120
no, people are putting teresa on a pedestal because they think that she was unique in that she cared for the sick and dying in calcutta.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ramakrishna_Mission_institutions

These guys do the same thing among more extensive stuff, and they don't get international recognition or dictactor bux either.

>>1653131
>they think that she was unique in that she cared for the sick and dying in calcutta.

Nobody thinks that.

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>>1653131
they're heathens though

>>1653131
>WESTERN follower of a WESTERN religion is more well known in the WEST than an EASTERN religion
Really makes you think

>>1653131
>no, people are putting teresa on a pedestal because they think that she was unique in that she cared for the sick and dying in calcutta.

No, they put her on a pedestal because she is a dedicated and good person. No one denies that there are others helping and think she's unique in her service, just that those struggling would not have reached aid if it were not for her given how much of a problem it is.

>>1653144
>>1653137
yet the idiots in this thread and the next think that she was some super special snowflake that took in 'untouchables' to die who were invariably lower caste hindus, and those who were purposefully left to die because of caste dynamics.

This reads like some late 19th century book for little britbongs that teaches how colonialism is good for the natives because now they wear western clothes.

>>1653138
>be heathen
>soul is damned
>help people anyway

better than being a christian trying to save natives from themselves.

>>1653158
>This reads like some late 19th century book for little britbongs that teaches how colonialism is good for the natives because now they wear western clothes.
that's actually true though
India would be even more of a gutter state if not for the British and Africa is still only half civilized even with the generous European aid they've gotten

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>>1653158
>yet the idiots in this thread and the next think that she was some super special snowflake that took in 'untouchables' to die who were invariably lower caste hindus, and those who were purposefully left to die because of caste dynamics.

None of this works against what I said in >>1653144

I specifically say "No one denies that there are others helping and think she's unique in her service, just that those struggling would not have reached aid if it were not for her given how much of a problem it is."

>>1653167
People who argue from cases of false knowledge while accusing others of the same never fail to make laugh.

>Hitchens is a fucking liar, MT WAS A SAINT SHE TOOK THE NEEDY AND DYING AND GAVE THEM A PLACE TO DIE WITH DIGNITY WHEN THEY WERE CONSIDERED UNTOUCHABLE

>SO WHAT IF ITS FUNCTIONALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE IS UNTOUCHABLE IN A PLACE LIKE CALCUTTA WHICH IS A RAPIDLY OVERPOPULATING CITY?

>>1653176
All right Atheismo, let's see you do better.

>>1653176
Because I'm pretty sure a Brahmin or a Kshatriya wouldn't choose to die in a poor house

>>1653193
>atheismo
at least try and bait better.

I have no problem with MT or what she did. People acting like she was something exceptional in calcutta of all places is what grinds my gears.

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>>1653176
>still talking about castes

I never spoke about castes. She took in the "poorest of the poor". That some people want to say this in relation to castes doesn't make caste and key point despite how much you want to tell them they're wrong about Indian life in the 20th century.

>>1653197
>brahmin or kshatriya
nice memes. They would have to if they were poor or living in the slums of calcutta.

>>1653102
>If she created hospitals instead of hospices, and perhaps provided state-of-the-art care, by default her facilities no longer become places for the poorest of the poor.

lmao, this is some seriously revealing rationalization for not actually helping anyone.

>>1653204
I am referring to the thread in general tripfag.

people like >>1653197 who know literally nothing in india other than what they might remember from middle school and those that try and try and form their opinion about india on that.

>itt: edgy atheists and buttmad poos in loos

>>1653209
m8 there isn't any rationalization needed besides the fact that there weren't any hospices there at the time

>>1653210
>I am referring to the thread in general tripfag.

I understand that and if there are problems with their view (I don't know much of modern Indian life so I cannot say) it's right to address them but this reads like rejecting her as a saintly person worth revering for her work and I'd make sure we can parse the two so to get your point across. I'm sorry that the confusion came up when you're trying to make a point.

Since I'm unaware, I'd like to know though: How is life for the lowest caste currently in the various parts of India? What could you tell me?

>>1653230
Depends on several economic and social factors, but basically a robust political system and rapid economic growth has led to a so called creamy layer.

Think of them as african americans who move out of the ghetto and integrate into wider society more openly, while gaining all the benefits of being from a depressed society

There are generally three tiers of people from the lower castes that are officially recognized by the indian government

Scheduled castes: Castes that were subject to historical discrimination and one of the earliest beneficiaries of the the affirmative action in India. Has seen wide varieties of improvements but rapid population increase has made their total numbers increase by a lot. This is the group which westerners point towards when they talk about brahmin oppression.

Scheduled tribes: People from 'primitive' tribal societies that lived on the peripheries of indian society in their own tribal systems of government. Not the same thing as untouchables. Shafted hard by colonial forest policies and were generally unable to adapt to a rapidly changing post colonial india. Gain the most benefits from affirmative action in theory as they are the smallest of all the scheduled groups.

Other Backward Castes: most recent group that became a scheduled group due to political agitation in the very early 80s and government instability. Critera is very loose in defining who an other backward caste is. Proportionately the most prominent group in the aforementioned creamy layer because of the social mobility in post colonial india.

That is just from a federal indian perspective. Different indian states have different policies of reservation and affirmative action. For example in West Bengal, the state where MT worked, the amount of OBCs is pretty damn low because of the initially huge middle class in post independent india. As a result they have affirmative action policies for muslims.

Contd.

>>1653268
Keep in mind that in the political arena of india, reservations and affirmative actions are powerful tools to mobilize voters to vote for a particular party. As a result several elections are won or lost based on the promises of securing reservations for certain groups.

The aforementioned muslims make an increasingly large part of the bengali political discourse and are easily to mobilize because of their monolithic centralized communities. As a result, giving them smaller sops like reservations makes it easier for them to secure an advantageous place in the elections.

The early 80s were a time of such political cut throat deathmatches. Due to the weakening of the congress government post emergency, a coalition of political parties came to power. While they were unable to remain for even a full term, they made several policy changes based on data that might be called erroneous in retrospect.

Since it would be political suicide to take away affirmative actions the reforms stayed and led to the bloated creamy layer that I mentioned earlier.

So all in all lower caste people in india have had a pretty uneven spurt of economic growth and a lot of political power, the former due to trickle down economics and hand-me-outs and the latter due to increasingly mobilized political pressure groups who vote based on caste lines instead of issues.

But no one is going to read this. Two months later we are going to have the same thread and people will rehash the same arguments over and over again about how MT was a saint or a murderess and how lower caste hindus were thrown out of hospitals.

If everyone on this board were to die, the world would be a better place.

>>1653308
>If everyone on this board were to die, the world would be a better place.
only the nonwhites desu

>>1653314
so just me and the persian?

I hardly even post here, just save the
>H
>R
>E
edits.

You honor people for their actions, not the whole person.

>>1653218
>m8 there isn't any rationalization needed besides the fact that there weren't any hospices there at the time

And what is the difference between dying miserably in the street or dying miserably inside a house where people think they know what you're going through?

Religious people are so arrogant it blows my mind.

>>1653346
Gee, I don't know, which would you prefer retard?

>>1649485
The deal with Mother Teresa is that skeptics/Atheist/antitheists will do anything to drag a good person's name though the mud because they have never done anything remotely as decent as her in their lives. Too busy bitching on the internet about muh religious brainwashing and other such bullshit.

>>1653357
not him but I would prefer to die with my family.

>>1653365
if you have a family to die with and a proper bed to do it in you are in a much better situation than most of the people MT was helping

>>1653372
>knows absolutely nothing about calcutta or it's slums

Families were all that a lot of those people had.

>>1653375
hence the "proper bed to do it in"

>>1653378
would prefer to die with my family in a stretcher rather than a proper bed where my family might not be allowed to visit.

>>1649659
>Yeah. And humanism. She saw them as humans. Not how the Big Pharma sees people. They just sees them as wallets to shoot drugs into.

In all fairness, Big Pharma has managed to restore more people to health than Mother Teresa.

>>1653393
So then why did they go to the hospice to die?

>>1653394
>Big Pharma has restored more people to health than a person housing terminally ill people
Really makes you think...

>>1653394
>implying hospices are about healing the sick, not comforting the dying
>implying being told you're loved and you matter as you lay dying is worse than an apathetic Doctor shooting you up with drugs and then walking away leaving you alone and unloved

>>1653404
>not comforting the dying

You mean lying to the dying about what happens next, which no one, not even religious people knows.

>>1653419
Wow, couldn't keep from going full edge could you
>ugh how dare you comfort the dying people with a possibility of an afterlife where they can be reunited with all those they lost! You should tell them that nothing but crushing oblivion awaits!

>>1653423
And you couldn't help strawmanning either.

>>1653428
No, that's what you implied.

Why shouldn't a dying person be told that bliss awaits them? If they're wrong, and it doesn't exist, it won't matter anyway

>>1653434
Saying you don't know =/= implying the reverse

>>1653447
I might have overreacted but you're still an edgy faggot because you think providing comfort is bad

>>1653308
>Stop talking about westerners, you can only praise Hindu charities!
Keep crying you fucking street shitter.

>>1653470
case in point.

>>1653453
I don't think providing comfort is bad, I think lying to people when they are dying is.

>>1653375
Why would you go to a hospice if you had a family that would let you die in their bed?

Why would you be dying on the street if you had family?

Fucking Hindus are dumber than the atheists.

>>1653485
I don't know?
>>1653470
>MT does very little in the city she was in
>"FUCKING POO IN LOO, HOW DARE YOU INSULT OUR SAINT"
kys catholishit, or get someone else to do it for you if your religion forbids it.

>>1653131
>These guys do the same thing among more extensive stuff, and they don't get international recognition or dictactor bux either.

But she's was so nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVF-nirSq5s

>>1653505
>sharpening a pistol
kek.

>>1653483
They're one and the same bro.

Even if it is a lie, if it's kindly meant there is no damage

>>1653491
Here's the answer retard, because the people who went to the hospice didn't fucking have family or friends that would care for them while terminally ill.

>>1653491
>I don't know?
So why even propose such a ludicrous set of events?
Clearly the people that went there had NO homes and NO families

>>1653398
>>1653404

>Implying that calling her clinics hospices means it's okay if her victims die of easily treatable diseases or infections they got from reusing syringes.

>>1653519
and the hospices did with over the counter pain pills and gruel?

>>1653528
Provided unloved and forgotten people with food, water and compassionate human contact.

But I guess those aren't important, they might as well stayed starving, alone dehydrated, wet on the streets with fucking animals biting at them.

Stupid currynigger.

>>1653527
Literally the only one calling it a clinic is you.

She herself said that it was a place to die peacefully

> if her victims die of easily treatable diseases or infections they got from reusing syringes
Seems that atheists here are completely illiterate.

People that thought they were on death's front door went to her. If they wanted to be healed they would have gone to a hospital

>>1653546
>compassionate human contact
>deny families to see them while they die
>not getting a second medical opinion
>instead some nurses give you pain pills that do nothing
oh wow, truly the white nun saved them all from themselves and the ebils of the caste system.

>>1653555
Provide a source for denying family visitation that hasn't been debunked (Hitchens) you stupid Hindu shitstain.

>>1653555
>compassionate human contact
Muslims were read the Quran, Hindus given the water of the Ganges, and Christians given the last sacrament

>deny families to see them while they die

Proofs?

>not getting a second medical opinion

She didn't kidnap people off the streets, they thought they were dying and went to her. If they wanted to be sure; they should have gone to a hospital

>instead some nurses give you pain pills that do nothing
As opposed to getting nothing and rotting in the street?

>>1649485
only fedora tipping hitchens memers hate her for somehow not having the most up to date medicine in a calcutta slum

>>1649637
alterative is dying on the wet shit filled street of an indian slum

>>1653567

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa

>guy who worked at the hospices says that she did shady shit and overstated her contributions to calcutta's poor and needy
>hitchens who got testimonies from people who worked there is a liar because he didn't personally visit calcutta.

>The mayor of calcutta who actually administered the city goes on record to say that she overstated the poverty in calcutta and turning it's perception into a city of beggars and lepers

>white doctors say that untrained personnel who didn't discriminate between curable and incurable diseases at all

>It doesn't matter at all because they were incurable.

yeah, fuck other people who lived and worked in calcutta, what do they know about the city anyway?

>>1653614

Try giving actual sources. Most of that shit comes straight from Hitchens and for some reason he chose not to list any citations in his book.

>>1653614
>guy who worked at the hospices says that she did shady shit and overstated her contributions to calcutta's poor and needy
That's just hubris; doesn't mean she didn't do shit

>The mayor of calcutta who actually administered the city goes on record to say that she overstated the poverty in calcutta and turning it's perception into a city of beggars and lepers
So all those people dying in the hospice is just western imperialist lies? Seems like the poo in loo mayor is butthurt he and his predecessors fucked the job up
>white doctors say that untrained personnel who didn't discriminate between curable and incurable diseases at all
Wow it's like they should have gone to a hospiTAL or something.

Is MT or her staff to blame that Indians are stupid?

>>1653614
You do realize no one here started by claiming only westerners helped in India right?

Fucking hell, I would have entirely agreed in giving Indian charities their due praise. However you had to get butthurt and start attacking Mother Teresa work as if people can't praise two charities at the same time.

So now all I can say is keep crying fucking Poo in the Loo.

>>1653619
How about aroup chatterjee's book?

The guy actually worked in said hospices and was born in calcutta and he properly sourced his stuff too.

>>1653629
ebin response m8.

She overstated her work and earned those big dictatorbux.

Not to mention the nonexistent presence of missionaries when there are disasters in india.

>>1653626
>everyone who was against MT was a butthurt streetshitter. so what if she had the financial resources to save lives, she was running a hospice.

>>1653654
>there are other hospitals in Calcutta; both Indian and missionary run
>decide to go to the designated dying place

Really makes you shit in the street...

Alright. I actually went ahead and bought chatterjee's book. If the thread is up until then I will see if I can provide citations.

meanwhile this debate, if you can call it that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdYKsiredbM

>>1653656
>>>/int/

>>1653675
literally like half of the meme on this board are stolen from /int/

>>1653680
I thought this board was to be held to a higher level of discourse.
It even was when it started.

Now its butthurt catholics angry that their precious icon overstated her work among the poor and the needy of calcutta and changed the perception of a vibrant city into a diseased hellhole where only a few missionaries helped the poor.

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>>1653689
t. Rajeep.

How does it feel to be so wrong?

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>>1653675
>M-MUH LOVE
>HURF DURF MUH CONTRACEPTION MUH ABORTION
This is why women shouldn't be allowed in debates. It's interesting until the women are allowed to speak.

>>1653695
>1985
>MT recieves nobel prize for her work in 79
>the left comes to power in 77
>earliest days are when they do land reforms and win the next election

but hey, I can screencap shit from wikipedia too catlick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kolkata#After_Independence

here is the entire section. Now read the last line.

Marxism in west bengal did a number on it's heavy industry which was nearly the highest in india during the 70s.

>>1653708
>country with major population issues.
>indian government running from pillar to post trying to get people to use rubbers and pills so as not to push out little rajeeps out of their twats

>"ABORTION IS A SIN, YOU WERE MEANT TO HAVE CHILDREN"

>>1653711
Your link proves that Calcutta definitely WASN'T a "vibrant city".

Is deception second nature to all subhumans, I wonder?

>>1653719
Not only is this not at all related to the discussion at hand, but arguing for mass abortion is simply arguing for the killing of the "excess" population based on an arbitrary legal definition of personhood. You know this is in no way different from clubbing dalits to death because they're not "really" persons, right? There's a reason why women usually don't see the corpses of their unborn children after their pre-natal infanticide.

Overpopulation is indeed a problem, but there's no solution more disgusting than culling the population.

>>1653728
>can't think
>can't survive outside of the host body
>implying this is any more of a person than a sperm cell or an ovum

Christfags are mentally ill.

>>1653722
>wasn't a vibrant city
>financial center to all the heavy industries springing up in west bengal after india became independent including the Damodar valley corporation
>a major port until the river stopped being dredged because communists want to keep people on the dole.
>a major historical and cultural center of colonial india.

>It is not a vibrant city guys!!!

The commies killed off the industry. Guess what a city geared to servicing those industries does when they all shut up shop?

>>1653728
>muh morality
>kid is born with 5 other brothers and sisters and is beaten, has a miserable life and works in unskilled labor.

>brings up the Lower caste boogeyman despite knowing nothing about it.

>>1653734
>implying this is any more of a person than a sperm cell or an ovum
Yeah, it quite obviously is. It's a new, merged cell with a unique DNA structure. It's not the result of myosis with only "half" the genome of its secreter.

Being pro-"choice" also carries the problem of personhood. When does it become a person, at what point? Because we can pinpoint with extreme accuracy the moment of contraception, while a term like 20-24 weeks (you'll already notice it's quite different in various countries0 is entirely arbitrary.

Let's also not forget that the biological definition for life does not include ability to think or even sentience. Biologically the baby is alive from the moment of conception, and by its genome it's human. It's human life, so the only argument that remains is one of arbitrary "personhood".

But once again this is entirely unrelated to the subject, and only a "feminist writer" would bring this up like it means anything.

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>>1653736
So the commies turned it into a NON VIBRANT CITY, is what you're saying? At the same time MT and her work became famous; totally not a coincidence there.
>>1653734
I know this might be a sensitive issue for an extra chromosomed person such as yourself but you do realize that sperm and ovum have only 23 chromosomes right?

>>1651850
>I really wish people would read this.

So what your saying is that we could have given that money to another charity, or just anyone else entirely, and have had it been of far better use?

>>1653749
>>1653755
>muh DNA

You know what else has a full complement of DNA?

A tumor.

In fact, it might have a completely new genetic code from the host.

Is that life precious?

>>1652559

I wonder why no one is responding to this?

>>1653734
>Oh no, no one is buying my shit attempt to slander a charitable woman
>Better change the subject!

>>1653766

They have, and I'm sure there is more >>1653067

At least when it comes to St. Teresa, Hitchens has been thoroughly discredited.

>>1653762
>A tumor.
Do I have to explain the difference between a zygote and a tumor to you? Have we really come to this level of mental gymnastics?

>>1653776
>tumor has unique, human DNA
>tumor can't survive outside the host body
>tumor is unwanted by the host
>tumor can't think

>BUT UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS A ZYGOTE CAN BECOME A PERSON

The "right conditions" meaning a womb. A sperm can also become a person if it enters a womb. Is it an act of genocide when somebody beats off into the crapper?

>>1653782
> Is it an act of genocide when somebody beats off into the crapper?
>23 chromosome make a person now

>>1653782
Listen closely, this may sound very strange to you... but did you know a zygote is a normal part of human reproduction? And a tumor an often lethal outgrowth, often caused by uncontrolled and abnormal cell reproduction?

They have about as much in common with eachother as you have with a mentally gifted person.

>>1653755
>around the same time
They crippled the economic sector of the city
Also nice copypasta from wikipedia,

It also doesn't tell that West bengal was one of the highest developed states of india at that time with industrial output on par with the state of bombay, or that it still contributes a lot to the indian economy.

>rajeev gandhi said so.

And he was a politician whose reforms were opposed by the left.

>MT became famous

she was famous since the 60s, during which west bengal had a relatively high rate of growth and social indices. It had also largely resettled the incoming refugees from east pakistan into cities like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durgapur

which were large industrial centers.


That doesn't even go into the cultural impact calcutta had on india at large and the disproportionate impact it had on indian academia.

But I am sure wikipedia warriors like you know much more about calcutta than people who live and work there ever could.

>>1653792
Well, it could be a human, if it had access to a human body.

Just like a zygote.

These are both things that die if they're outside of a womb, and live if they're inside of one.

The only difference between masturbation and abortion is that Christfags couldn't keep everyone convinced that abortion was a sin, so they had to fall back to a mildly more moderate way of convincing their followers to have more kids.

>>1653782
>Is it an act of genocide when somebody beats off into the crapper?

There's no excuse for this shit. I've seen this "are sperm humans too?" shit too many times for it to just a few dumb people. What the fuck are they teaching kids about biology these days?

>>1653808
There's no excuse for this shit. I've seen this "zygotes are human too" shit too many times for it to just a few dumb people. What the fuck are they teaching kids about biology these days?

>>1653805
Take it to another thread Pajeet. I doubt the dying men in MT hospice were doing much more fucking.

>>1653812
There's no excuse for this shit. I've seen this "zygotes are human too" shit too many times for it to just a few dumb people. What the fuck are they teaching kids about biology these days?

>>1653774

>They have, and I'm sure there is more >>1653067

http://www.catholicleague.org/hating-mother-teresa/

https://books.google.ca/books?id=uYPgDAAAQBAJ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Donohue

http://www.catholicleague.org/christopher-hitchens-the-missionary-position-mother-teresa-in-theory-and-practice/

SEEMS LEGIT

>At least when it comes to St. Teresa, Hitchens has been thoroughly discredited.

All I hear people saying is that "he never went to India" but they don't ever get around to disproving his sources.

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>>1653804
>she was famous since the 60s, during which west bengal had a relatively high rate of growth and social indices.
Which means it had no poverty, right? Pretty sure that even today in the "richest" parts of India you can find poor.

Pic related is from the 1990s and even the "richest" states have over 10% poverty. That's higher than any given country in Europe outside of maybe some Balkan shitholes. Your "muh Calcutta was vibrant" doesn't matter as it almost certainly had poor. And not Western "can't afford a second tv" poor, more like "can't afford a second meal on the day" poor.

What is even your point? That MT was lying about poverty?

>>1653814
>in this thread we praise MT and attack people who dare to think that she was a literal saint.

>>1653814
>in this thread we praise MT and attack people who dare to think that she was not a saint.

>>1653819
>>1653821
>>1653812
>>1653814

Why are you doubleposting you dumb nigger?

>>1653812

In my biology class we were taught that science defines life as an organism that's in a state of development. So a zygote from the moment of conception, being a distinct human organism that is growing, makes it a human. Sperm are not in a state of development and it does not carry distinct DNA. So no, sperm by themselves are not people and they will never become people.

>>1653824
Curry nigger finally snapped after being BTFO too much.

>>1653818
>whats your point
that she was the sole person going around and helping the poor, or as it was presented in the west like you retards like to believe.

Her missionaries weren't there during disaster reliefs in calcutta.
They weren't there during riots helping the injured.
Their impact on the poor was limited which is even more appalling given the huge resources that she had at her disposal.

>>1653805
Difference is, tard, a zygote has an incredibly higher chance of becoming a person than a single sperm

>>1653830
literally one of them is me.

>>1653829
>Sperm are not in a state of development

u wot

>does not carry distinct DNA

That's just straight wrong.

>they will never become people

I forgot how common immaculate conception is these days.

>>1653831
>It's awful everyone ignores Hindu charities and praises MT
>It's ok to ignore MT efforts and praise muh Hindu ones

Do you understand hypocrisy in your shithole?

>>1653831
>that she was the sole person going around and helping the poor, or as it was presented in the west like you retards like to believe
Literally no one believes this, until you sperged out about MUH EBIL WESTERNERS because you heard them raping your sisters or something, and now you're literally having a nervous breakdown

>>1653837

You make a fine example of the atheist pro-choice crowd.

>>1653845
>sperm don't have distinct DNA
>sperm don't become part of a living human
>zygotes are alive

I'm an Episcopalian, you shitter.

Get good at Christianity. Delayed ensoulment is the only rational doctrine.

>>1653831
>that she was the sole person going around and helping the poor, or as it was presented in the west like you retards like to believe.
I doubt even she said that. There were probably multiple orders active in the region.

>>1653838
She did far less than other charities and hogged most of the credit

The image of calcutta being a destitute shithole in the west is largely of her making.

In terms of services rendered to the city she is easily beat by the ramkrishna mission in terms of lives saved, and they do it with far less money than she had at her disposal christcuck

Your saint liked watching suffering so much that she turned the image of calcutta from an economically growing city that had a lot of cultural influence from the outside world into a place where there are just cripples and beggars running around in the muck.

Not as a place where indian women participated equally in the freedom struggle, not a place which has had several of india's oldest and most prestigious institutions, not a place where the bengali renaissaince took place or which was avant garde in it's social and political thinking.

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>>1653856

I prefer to incorporate science into my theology. There's nothing rational about thinking that a sperm by itself will develop into an adult human and thinking that masturbation is genocide.

>>1653839
Really?

Then why is every description of calcutta city of joy tier?

>>1653859
there were very few, and several other missionaries did help but they weren't glory hogs like her either.

>>1653816
>his sources
he never provides any which is a huge part of the reason why he's not taken seriously

>>1653874
Thomas Aquinas thought that because he believed semen to be tiny babies that were simply planted in the womb and grew there. Given the scientific knowledge available to him at the time this is entirely rational, but had microscopes and modern biology existed in his time he'd probably change his opinion accordingly.

>>1653874
Okay, let's abandon sperm for a second.

Eggs can form into humans without sperm. It's rare, but parthenogenesis happens every billion or so pregnancies.

Is the egg a human?

It never gets fertilized. Is the child a human?

It isn't rational to treat what amounts to a cluster of cells as a human.

We know exactly when god gives a developing child the gift of thought, and that's the only rational line.

>>1653873
Damn, did a Christian steal your girl or something?
>two refugee crises in just two decades
>several power shortages
>many strikes
>commie insurgency
>disappearing industry
>PM of country literally calls Calcutta a dying city
>ITS WESTERN LIES WE WUZ METROPOLIS

>>1653892

If it is a distinct human organism that is growing, yes it is a human.

>>1653892
>Eggs can form into humans without sperm. It's rare, but parthenogenesis happens every billion or so pregnancies.
Oh fuck off with this bullshit. Stop believing in pseudoscience. There have been no recorded cases of this

>>1653899
It isn't distinct though.

And are identical twins different people?

Same DNA, same zygote.

You're using an ad hoc justification that has nothing to do with the biological facts or the scripture.

>>1653892
>It isn't rational to treat what amounts to a cluster of cells as a human.
But humans are LITERALLY clusters of cells.

>>1653906
No shit that if, on average, you need to DNA test two billion people to find one case, you aren't going to find any.

We know it's possible for mammals, and more importantly, it's a rhetorical device.

There aren't a whole lot of people tied to trolley lines, either. Maybe none. But we can still learn something from them.

>>1653908

Do you understand what is meant by distinct? That it has unique DNA? If it's either not distinct, not human, or not in a state of development (growing), then it is not human.

When a flatworm is cut in half it will continue developing as two distinct flatworms. This fact would not cause us to think that no flatworm existed prior to the split. Just because an organism splits into two distinct organisms, doesn't mean there wasn't a human before that.

>>1653916
Well, clusters of cells with cognition, and ability to survive without a placenta.

The cognition part is the important thing. Bacteria clusters are alive, but I don't say a hail mary after I scrub the toilet bowl.

>>1653924
I'm interested to see where you got this definition of life.

Because I'm pretty sure clonal colonies are considered to be alive, and they aren't genetically distinct.

For that matter

>distinct

Nothing says "this is a separate organism" like needing a placenta to survive.

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>>1653920
First, see pic related.

Second, if such a case existed, you'd think they'd notice the kid was a clone of the mother.

Third, it's a stupid fucking rhetorical device; because you're abusing the laws of biology. Might as well ask if a guy who spawns from thin air is also human

>>1653924
This, to use ID twins.

>fertilized embryo (one soul)
>embryo divides and forms a second genetically similar embryo (two souls upon division)

>>1653926
>The cognition part is the important thing.
So it is literally cognition that defines whether or not one can be considered a human? Is someone who sleeps not a human for a period of 8 hours?

>>1653926
>Well, clusters of cells with cognition, and ability to survive without a placenta.

Why does that matter? Thinking and feeling are actions that human beings can perform but to say those are what makes you human and gives you the right to life commits the fallacy of confusing cause and effect. You must be a human before you can act like one, so you must be a human before you can think or feel like one.

The only difference between the unborn and born are the type of shelter and the type of food that's required. The environments that we can or can't survive in as adult humans have no bearing on whether we have a right to life so it shouldn't matter to the unborn.

>>1653935
So by your logic newborns aren't human and can be killed because they are dependent on parents to be fed.

Fuck off heretic.

>>1653936
Well, is he?

Humans who grow from spores have been a pretty common rhetorical device in the abortion debate.

And again

>no naturally occurring cases
>can be induced artificially

So yeah, could be, could not be. At the kind of probabilities we're talking about here, it's impossible to know.

>you'd think they'd notice the kid was a clone of the mother

Out of the hundred billion or so humans that have existed, maybe one hundred thousandth of them have been DNA tested. And kids normally look like their parents.

>>1653896
>PM of country calls calcutta a dying city
>state is the 5th largest contributer to GDP ahead of meme states like gujarat or kerala
>power outage when it is diverted to the burgeoning heavy industry sector while the damodar valley corporation sets up
>commie insurgency that is squashed so brutally that the INC loses the election
>disappearing industry
>during the mid 80s when communism takes hold of the state apparatus
>meanwhile MT becomes since the 50s when WB's economy is growing rapidly.

>>1653960
>humans grow from spores rhetoric

Don't you have a pro abortion club to lead at your middle school?

>>1653953
I'm not talking about unborn and born.

I'm talking about thinking and unthinking.

>>1653949
A living human doesn't stop thinking. If there were no brain waves, the heart can't operate. Even a coma patient is above the level of a first trimester zygote, and most of the second trimester.

>>1653960
There's a difference between favouring your mother/father and completely, and I mean completely looking like him/her

>>1653971
>I'm talking about thinking

You should consider doing it.

>>1653969
Not an argument.

>>1653968
So in your mind what did Mother Theresa do there during the 50's and 60's?; twiddle her thumbs all day?

>>1653968
>insults figure who helped your poor
>get a bloody anus because his city is a 3rd world shithole

You are so fucking pathetic shit skin.

>>1653972
I have to imagine that even in the modern, industrialized countries, people would think.

>that's creepy as fuck
>oh well, it's kind of cute

And not treat it as a medical anomaly.

If it's a probability on the order of 1/1,000,000,000 then there would have been about 100 cases in all of human history, seven of which are alive today and only one of which lives in a developed country.

>>1653986
But again, your mistake is thinking that because it can be artificially produced in mammals, it can naturally occur in humans

>>1653992
I mean, how would we know, one way or the other?

It's been artificially produced in human cells, and we know that all biological matter is subject to random mutations.

It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't possible for the purpose of this discussion.

It's just a way to point out how dumb DNA is as a metric.

>>1653982
Nice argument
she did little compared to the resources she had whiteboi. Private pastors and doctors from all over europe did more than her without the backing of the biggest charity in the world. Local middle class officegoers did more than her with their pooled together monies.

but I suppose having a kindly old nun as your posterchild is good when your church is known as a kid diddling organization.

>>1653980
She helped people, I am not denying that. The indian government recognized her work and let her do her thing, which is pretty fucking rare when the entire country was under an ebin socialist meme.

However some perspective must be there between what people like
>>1652162
>>1653020
>>1653102
>>1653982

who know next to nothing about india or the complex social dynamics that went there or the political climate, but are quick to write the entire thing off as a nice nun working in a destitute shithole with people who were abandoned. Even if the rumors of unconsented baptising are false or even if she was unable to help the poor despite gaining a lot of charitable donations, the fact remains that she was at best a second fiddle to the city she claimed to have served the poor in.

>>1653874

>the point in which the sperm fertelizes the egg.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=4Sg5sXyiBvkC&pg=PA438#v=onepage&q&f=false

>>1654052
Not him, but what's the point? Life doesn't start at conception because miscarriages are a thing?

>>1649730
Yea, I'm a 34-year old lapsed Catholic (raised as one, but never really much believed in any of it -- pretty much a plain boring atheist nowadays). I remember when she died, our school made us pray for her, and likewise at Church the next Sunday. Luckily, my parents were never huge on saint worship, so they didn't make a big deal. Even back then I recall thinking "What is the big deal with her anyway? A Catholic in a sea of heathens, so what".

Knowing more about her as a grown-up, it is pretty disgraceful to canonize her. She doesn't deserve it, but I guess the Church wants modern saints to appear hip and cool or whatever.

I've also been to Calcutta, and good god what a crowded sweltering shit bucket. The real reason so many Indians are vegetarians (and I completely understand this) is because you don't want to know what your meat/fish has been eating -- shit, dead bodies, and garbage. Produce and vegetables may not be a whole lot better, but at least you can't picture an onion picking away and fattening up on some dead old ladies' labia.

>>1654067
>calcutta
>largely bengali population
>large consumers of fish and meat overall

m8...

>>1654067
>choose to live in the worst part of a shithole
>doesn't deserve to be canonized

Good thing nominal Christians like your parents don't decide shit in Catholicism.

Keep feeling superior while doing nothing fag.

>>1653886
>he never provides any which is a huge part of the reason why he's not taken seriously

What the hell are you talking about?

>>1652559

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/asia/mother-teresa-critic.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ali

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohan_Bhagwat

http://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/i-dont-think-she-deserved-the-nobel/284270

>>1654145
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohan_Bhagwat
m8, I am a practicing hindu and I think that MT was a glory hog, but Mohan bhagwat alone would throw your argument into the trash. He is a fucking retard and a member of a meme rightwing group.

>>1654145
>What the hell are you talking about?
the fact that Hitchens doesn't cite any sources

>>1654082
>boil a fish with bones in
>throw some rice next to it
>throw some mustard sauce with the consistency of dog vomit on it
>Bengali food
And they say Brits have terrible cuisine... Kathi roles were pretty awesome though.

>>1654141
Nah, my parents are pretty committed Catholics. They go every Sunday, my dad has been a lector for nearly 40 years. The congregation is, overall, somewhat more liberal for a Catholic church, being owned/run by a somewhat more progressive order. Being modern educated people, they view saint veneration as old fashioned superstitions, but my mom does have a few various saint cards in her wallet to pray them up a devotion now and then.

Seeking out misery doesn't make you a saint. Performing two miracles along with being Catholic, pious and dead do.

>>1654204
>can't eat mustard sauce
into the trash you go.

>>1654232
The mustard sauce is the only thing that it makes it barely just sniffable. Seriously, Bengali food was overall the most disappointing in India. The only place that made me think "you know what... I think I'll try India's version of KFC/McDs/Dominoes after all..."

>>1654278
Dude what?

It has probably the best fish in india, but I know what you mean. It is an acquired taste for the most part. the mild sweetness with the spices takes getting used to.

Best sweets in the subcontinent by far though

also

>go to subway to order something
>chicken ham
toppest of keks.

>>1651289
Someone has to play the devils advocate post vatican II

>>1652180
A good journalist does indeed cite sources, even if they are protected primary interviews. Hitchens relies on the word of a Calcutta doctor who ironically hated that she gave Calcutta a bad name as a shithole and also that she didn't alleviate her patients from their gut renching squalor, and who also left the horrid poverty of his city to live in the UK on the upper salary end

>>1654982
the doctor also worked in said hospices and his bone of contention is that she overstated her work to earn those bux.

>>1649659
Yeah Big Pharma just pumps people full of actual medication that can alleviate illness and pain

>>1655001
and evergreens patents so that most people who suffer from the disease, but thats a different ball game altogether.

>>1655015
people who suffer from the disease can't get treatment

>>1654982
>people are not allowed to emigrate.

>>1655044
>>1654994
Merely pointing out the irony that the doctor (whose name is associated with the privledged Bengali Brahmin) also stated he was personally offended how his great city was representated as a sewer in the international stage. He was British radio there last week, and actualy cited the fact there was major airlines going there to prove it was an up an coming global city. Funny how he got outta there and into the west around the same time MT died

>>1654082
There's a reason they drown their meat in spices, the quality is not what western consumers would accept

>>1655082
>previledged bengali brahmin
I am sure the indian state provides a ton of benefits to upper caste hindus

>offended

of course he would be, He thought that MT wasn't anything special when he was there at the hospice, came to the west and found out that she had an entire gigantic PR campaign around her that painted her as some sort of savior in a city that was almost dying for decades including the time calcutta was actively growing instead of stagnating.

>major airlines
meaning it was a major hub in the SE asian region during the 60s, 70s and early 80s. He also interviewed actual people who worked there or with the missionaries of charity.

But then emmigrating west means that he is a hypocrite and his work can be discarded.

>>1655092
eh, or maybe they actually are habituated to spices since it is essential for cooking?

>>1655105
for them I mean?

>>1655103
>I am sure the indian state provides a ton of benefits to upper caste hindus
I think his experience of the city would be slightly different to those untouchables MT was working with

Do you not sense the deep contraditions in your statement?
>Calcutta is a great city and certainly not the shithole MT portrayed!
>MT didn't care about those human garbage of Bengali society! They suffered in complete agony in the sewers of this great and wealthy city!

For someone so concerned about MT's apparent failure in due care towards the absolute poor of Calcutta, he's certainly living a grand life better than most British wage earners.

No offense, but are you a poo?

>>1649707
Baptism has way more serious implications than touching kids, I agree.

>>1655105
Except it was the same principle in Britain before the age of gastronomy and the upper classes spreading the practice of good produce cooked to its natural flavour, working classes would cover the taste of poor quality meat with overpowering spices before good quality meats became affordable

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221267081400150X

>>1655147
>I think his experience of the city would be slightly different to those untouchables MT was working with
Firstly the guy was a medical professional and before getting his doctor's degree worked in the poverty stricken areas of calcutta, both as a college student and later while getting his degree. He had plenty of experiences with people of a similar strata of society that Mother Teresa worked with, despite what your snide comments might suggest.

Again with this meme. It is incredibly hard to find exactly who is untouchable and who is not in the narrow confines of a massive city, doubly so in slums which are often semi legal and don't have housing registrations
This is of course without going into the fact that untouchability in india has been illegal since it has become independent, I have already mentioned previously in the state the large amounts of affirmative action that is given to different untouchable groups on a state and federal basis.
Crimes against them are persecuted more heavily, they are given better opportunities to get state sponsored education, better opportunities to get into jobs, and better chances of promotions once they get into said jobs.

FFS the guy himself states that ever since she bit the bucket, the quality of care in those places went up.

>deep contradictions

All cities have seamy underbellies. Its like a bunch of people watch slumdog millionaire and decide that every poor kid on the street of mumbai is tortured and crippled so that their handlers make more money off them and it is a shithole that has no redeeming features.

That is what mother teresa's legacy on the city of calcutta has been. Its like Tulsa OK, which known for its race riots as an american example.

>>1655215

>>1655147
>No offense, but are you a poo?
yes I am, but what does that have to do with anything?

Doesn't change the guy's point one bit. Given the resources she had at her disposal, she did very little for reducing the suffering of those under her care. She had the wherewithal to do more and refused to do so.

Well this thread has fallen off the bump limit. I would hope people would learn from this thread, but they probably won't.

>>1655234
I learned that Hindu nationalist are fucking blind little angry shit eaters.

>>1655266
of course you did.

How dare they insult a glorified cheerleader that was there to save the church's bacon when it was famous for diddling little choirbois.

>>1649659
so now the cat is out of the bag. this is why there is a campaign against her? Big Pharma propaganda?

>>1655492
there is no campaign against her anon. She simply wasn't that big of a deal in India. She was certainly more famous than several other european missionaries working in india, and was an icon for the church when it was under fire in general in the west.

>>1655165
>working classes would cover the taste of poor quality meat with overpowering spices before good quality meats became affordable

Working class people living in pre-industrial Europe wouldn't be able to afford spices.

https://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm

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>>1649498
>>1649576
>because everyone browses 4chan 24/7
Sorry I'm not an NEET, anons.

>>1649720
but those are catholics too you FUCKING retard

>>1652117
Keep in mind that Hitchens is a jew