Mesopotamia general thread. Post anything related to the birthplace

>>1644461
Is european civilization a continuation of mesopotamian civilization?

>>1644484
Yes and no.

Minoan and Mycenaean civilization is only about a thousand years younger than Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations.

And because of the rough terrain of Greece, it was always more decentralized and focused on trade rather than religion or conquest.

>>1644461
>be Sumerian
>no one speaks my weird ass language
>oops Tigris didn't flood this year
>die

>>1644461
One of the oldest known urban sedentary sites in history is in Iran from 8000 BC or so. We consider Iran part of Mesopotamia right?

>>1646011
Fuck no

>>1644519
nah minoans where civilisation starts being white thus european

>>1646395
lol what? elam is considered part of mesopotamian civilization and it was situated in modern day iran.

>>1646424
>implying Elamites were Iranians

t. Reza Muhammad Tehrani

And Elam wasn't Mesopotamian either, in fact Mesopotamians created the word as an exonym.

File: Mesopotamia.png (264KB, 1000x1005px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1646444
Butthurt diaspora detected

I never said elamites were actual iranians it was just situated in modern day iran thus its part of the history of the country

And elam was part of mesopotamia.

File: elam.jpg (38KB, 300x250px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1646470
Diaspora of what? I'm not Middle Eastern.

>And elam was part of mesopotamia.

Not it was not. Mesopotamians (Sumerians, Akkadians etc) considered them to be outsiders.

>>1646483
The greeks also considered macedonians to be outsiders yet they are considered part of the hellenic civilization nowadays

>>1646487
>geographically not in Mesopotamia
>actual Mesopotamians didn't consider them to be Mesopotamians
>BUT IT WAS TOTALLY MESOPOTAMIAN GUYS !!!

>>1646487
Old Macedon language was in the Greco-Hellenic language family. Elamite was a language isolate.

>>1646492
nice strawmaning

>>1646497
So is sumerian

>>1646499
Are you arguing that Sumerians weren't Mesopotamians? Since they're pretty much the ones who created the entire thing.

>>1646501
I just wonder how elamites speaking an islotate language excludes them from being mesopotamian .

>>1646498
That wasn't a strawman - that is literally what you said, that Elamites were Mesopotamians, which they were not.

>>1646507
That wasn't the argument and you know it, so stop pretending to be retarded.

>>1646510
I said that modern day historians consider macedonians to be hellenic while the other greeks didnt think so. So whats wrong with saying that modern day historians consider elam part of mesopotamian civilization (which they do) while the other mesopotamians didnt think so ( Do you have any source on this btw?).

>>1646510
And that was pretty much his argument he concluded that elamites arent mesopotamian because they spoke a language isolate while being mesopotamian isnt determined through language at all considering that there were many different languages present in mesopotamia.

>>1646522
No, my argument is that there was a linguistic connection between Greeks and Macedonians, but such a connection didn't exist between Elamites and any of the Mesopotamian peoples.

>>1646532
such a connection didnt exist between sumerians and babylonians,assyrians or akkadians either.

>>1646537
Babylonians, Assyrians and Akkadians were Mesopotamian though, so a linguistic connection is not needed (and even if it was, Akkadian upper class still spoke Sumerian for a long ass time).

My point was that there is virtually no connection between Mesopotamians and Elamites. Elam is to Mesopotamia like Persia is to Greece.

>>1646532
>The mesopotamian people

????

Akkadians spoke Semitic and Sumerians spoke a language isolate so there was never a "Mesopotamian" language group you ignoramus.

>>1646547
>there was never a "Mesopotamian" language group

Never claimed there was one. There were however several languages spoken in Mesopotamia and Elamite was not one of them.

>>1646545
>elamites dont speak a language related to the other mesopotamians so they arent mesopotamian
>Babylonians,assyrians and akkadians dont speak a language related to the original mesopotamians,sumerians,
>but that doesnt matter because they are mesopotamian

How can you demand a related language for elamites so they can be considered mesopotamians while not doing the same for Babylonians,Assyrians and akkadians?

Btw you didnt provide any source on the statement that elamites werent considered mesopotamian by the others.

>>1646562
>How can you demand a related language for elamites so they can be considered mesopotamians while not doing the same for Babylonians,Assyrians and akkadians?

Let's see.

>Germany is European
>Egypt is not European
>mention that Egyptian Arabic is not related to German
>"How can you demand a related language for Egyptians so they can be considered Europeans while not doing the same for Hungarians, Finns or Basques?"

>>1646562
Also

>Btw you didnt provide any source on the statement that elamites werent considered mesopotamian by the others.

I think the burden of proof is on you in this case.

>>1646572
Lel you made this statement in the first place>>1646483 so provide some sources for this.

>>1646570
So its just about geography then? why did you make the "language must be related"-argument in the first place?

>>1646574
Not arsed to dig up sources since it's 5 am, but Elamites were considered outsiders pretty much on the level of Amorite pastoralists who invaded from the west. Contemporary authors view them as people very distinct from the Sumero-Akkadian cultural sphere, the only exemption is the city of Susa which was likely a Sumerian colony (and not a part of what we now consider Mesopotamia proper).

>>1646395
You are retarded. Mesopotamia includes Elamite civilization as well as the Medes. Stop posting.

>>1646588
>>1646395
>>1646444
>>1646483
>>1646492
>Mesopotamia (/ˌmɛsəpəˈteJmiə/, Ancient Greek: Μεσοποταμία "[land] between rivers"; from Ancient Armenian Միջագետք (Mijagetq); Arabic: بلاد الرافدين bilād ar-rāfidayn; Persian: میانرودان miyān rodān; Syriac: ܒܝܬ ܢܗܪܝܢ Beth Nahrain "land of rivers") is a name for the area of the Tigris–Euphrates river system, in modern days roughly corresponding to most of Iraq plus Kuwait, the eastern parts of Syria, and regions along the Turkish-Syrian and Iran–Iraq borders.
>A further distinction is usually made between Northern or Upper Mesopotamia and Southern or Lower Mesopotamia. Upper Mesopotamia, also known as the Jazira, is the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris from their sources down to Baghdad. Lower Mesopotamia consists of southern Iraq, Kuwait and parts of western Iran.

>>1646704
t. Ali Parviz Rahmani

>>1646722
No, but keep shitposting if it makes you feel better.

>>1646722
>>>/int/

>>1646395
Western Iran is entirely within the general defined boarders of Mesopotamia you really dumb troll.

one cunt shitposter ruins a perfectly fine thread.

I'm actually iranian and interested in this topic. I don't care about racism and racist jokes but it's pretty silly to say that only Babylonians, Akkadians, Sumerians, and Assyrians are mesopotamian when they interacting and dealt with Elamites, Medians and eventually Persians at all times.

>>1646853
And even if they aren't mesopotamian, the historicity of the region is rather arbitrary given the relative dearth of knowledge and information.

So fine, they aren't mesopotamian. Can we get back on topic?

>>1646858
>>1646853
But they are considered Mesopotamian.

File: Ashurbanipal.jpg (401KB, 1270x895px) Image search: [Google]

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> destroyed the elamites
> defeated the egyptians
> built his own library with thousands of cuneiform tablets
> defeated a huge rebellion led by his own brother
> empire was peaceful for twenty years

Ashurbanipal was undoubtedly the greatest king of Assyria

>>1648771
>destroyed the elamites
I thought a combination of Elam, Neo-Babylonia, and Media empires destroyed the last Assyrian Empire?

>>1648912
Not really. The Elamites at that time were far too weak to do anything. The power vacuum created by Ashurbanipal's conquest was filled by Medes and Persians.

>>1649321
The power vacuum didn't exist when you had the Median Empire, Neo Babylonian Empire, Lydian Empire, and Egyptian Kingdom all in an alliance after the destruction of the last vestiges of the Neo Assyrian Empire. Shit went south once the Persian revolt happened around a century later.

The Medes had overthrown the Elamites with their Persian vassals for good in Iran either before, at, or immediately after the fall of the Assyrians.

Do you guys think that Chechens are the descendants of Sumerians / other Mesopotamian nations?

>>1649422
Why in the fucking fuck would they be?
No they obviously aren't.

>>1646853
Burger here. Glad to have your perspective.

Where to learn about this great civilization? I was so salty when I took Western Civ I and theh jut briefly touched on the code of Hammurabi

>>1650552
Harambe was so influential. I hate the zoo keepers who put him down.

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>>1644461
Amazing how civilisations fall

>>1648771
> built his own library with thousands of cuneiform tablets
I will always consider Ashurbanipal one of my favorite historical figures partly because he preserved The Epic of Gilgamesh.

>>1650664
Mesopotamian civilization falls every couple centuries. There's nothing new about this