If God created the universe, how did he come to be?

>>1636434
He was created by Super God

>>1636440
Thats wrong you foul heathen, God came to be when 5 lesser gods all formed together in the divine voltron even

>>1636434
He's beyond the mortal concept of "Beginning" and "End". He just is.

>>1636434
I would also ask, why would he bother to exist?

>>1636434
sucked on his own dick and cum farted out the universe him inclusionary

>cycles of life, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

>>1636460
This

>>1636496
Infinite existence among the great empty of the existence, on every moment and time at the same time. That must suck. I guess he would really like an euthanasia. If he can even die?

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>>1636440
As a Roman Catholic I can confirm. Super God is way more ripped than God.

>>1636434
he's non-physical, he just is

>>1636512
God can't die, he only exists.

Personally, i imagine there are an infiite number of universes he sees anyway, so i would think he's entertained at least.
then again, thats projecting human traits onto an entity that always has/always will exist, so trying to rationalize or understand him is stupid.

God's parents did the nasty.

>>1636560
I'm kinda imagining him like a Charles Manson of the universe.

He just IS dude, he just exists outside of our dimension through MAGIC which makes complete sense dude

>>1636434
God isn't actually a big old man with a beard in the clouds you dumb faggot. There doesn't need to be a beginning or an end because we're not talking about some organism.

>>1636646
But if he does not have form, does he exist?

>>1636666
Does emotion and feeling have form? They certainly exist.

>>1636583
Wanna know how I know that you're an underage newfag?

>>1636434

Can god terminate his own existance?

>>1636696
They indeed have forms, from a biological standpoint. What causes the emotions also has a form which interacts with you via senses or reflexion.

He was always there.

>>1636560
>then again, thats projecting human traits onto an entity that always has/always will exist, so trying to rationalize or understand him is stupid.

Weren't humans created in the image of God? Anyways, God of Bible behaves in very human way. He's at times angry, jealous or sometimes just an asshole.

>>1636902
Maybe even insane, apathetic or sosiopathic

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>>1636434


The above image is range of creation and evolution.

A few Samsara of Sakyamoni Hananim Buddha as the Only True Original Creator
http://brahmanedu.org/english/materials/summary/51.html


Please, try to think about God's body and a human body.

In a human body, there are a lot of cells.
Cell structure : nucleolus, mitochondrion, chromatin, ribosomes, golgi apparatus, etc.

Bacteria or virus invade a human body. The normal cells in a human body fight foreign bacteria or virus. Various phenomena occur in a human body.

In the body of Sakyamoni Hananim Buddha as the only true original creator, there are a lot of stars on the evolutionary way of solid matter and creatures on the evolutionary way of young-che(영체, 靈體, souls and souls' bodies of all the creatures).

In Sakyamoni Hananim Buddha's body named as beop-gong(법공, 法空), creatures and solid matters coexist. We experience various phenomena.

Image of Beop-gong : http://brahmanedu.org/english/materials/images/21_1_1.jpg

This is my tip for you as best as i can explain.

If you would like to know more, http://brahmanedu.org/english/

Three bodies of a man : http://brahmanedu.org/english/materials/summary/15_2.html
http://brahmanedu.org/english/materials/images/11_2_7.jpg

>>1636512
Are you kidding? God is a meme master and has been shitposting with unlimited power and no supervision since the dawn of time. His banter alone must be so good that burning in hell for all eternity is preferable to God verbally roasting you

>>1637130
I am playing upon the concept of god getting extremely bored and feel alone enough that he might go insane or want to die. Who wants to live forever?

if god always was, what's stopping the universe from being the same?

>>1636434
God simply IS.

>>1636560
fell into the trap. exist is also a positive property. God "is"(im falling into the same trap here) the unimaginable, ineffable, unbound of human reasoning

>>1637163
https://books.google.de/books?id=QHMeBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=aporia+god&source=bl&ots=bUdyDO5auu&sig=v0FUP1fA5Meo75zlXC5vT9nwEfE&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyh9ug3fDOAhXKCcAKHZojBLUQ6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q=aporia&f=false
as reference

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>>1637143
>projecting human desires onto the creator of all

>>1637148
God

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>>1637180
>not projecting human desires on the cause of those desires.

>>1637163
>>1637180
>made in God's image
>no he's completely unknowable, he has nothing in common with us

>>1636440
If God lives a good enough Eternity then he can ascend to Super Heaven to be with his creator Super God.

But then when Super God dies he can go to Super Duper Heaven...

>>1636902
>>1636915
When will this meme die? Look at the amount of shit God had to put up with in the OT and you realize he showed way more restraint than almost any human would. All the more if it's viewed in the NT context of God setting up the pieces for Operation Messiah.

>>1637457
Yeah right.

>Book of Job

>>1637457
>put up with
but he knew it all would happen and still was the fundamental cause for it.
I can accept the idea that god is tied to his fate as creator, but then we cannot trust him to guide us.

>>1637397
Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.”

“Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

>God created us in his image

>God is formless

explain

>>1636460
Thats such a cop out
>uuhhhmmmm you just cant get it because you're human lol

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>>1637457
>mfw God gets so booty blasted about shitposting that he comes here to defend himself anonymously

>>1637469
So this misconception is based on the whole "Satan is God's prosecutor" idea, specifically applied to Job's story because of the generalities of the term "Satan." The issue is that doing so ignores what this Satan fellow is doing, namely walking up and down the earth and such. Which turns out to be a reference to ye olde method of demarcating land ownership. Whoever you prefer to believe this Satan fellow is, it's clear that he's an asshole who's claiming the planet as his own. Note that God's response actually makes sense in this context. He's pointing out that Job's still faithful to Him so the claim is void. If Satan is just playing prosecutor, there's no reason for God to bring Job up in the first place. The SaP interpretation fundamentally breaks the story because there is no longer a coherent point to it. Meanwhile, the Satan as Impending Landlord interpretation does the opposite; Job's unwillingness to bend prevents this Satan fellow from getting his way, essentially saving the world without ever realizing it. Which then plays into God's later point that he does important shit without explaining the reasoning behind it, and we just have to trust him on it.

>>1637469
Job thing is scariest part of OT for me.
Thing about it. All other suffering and deaths ordered/made/approved by God was some kind of punishment, Job was loyal, faithful and good worshiper and still had to suffer as part of bet with Satan and message was to endure it and still worship God even when let this happen to you.

>>1637495
>That's such a cop out
Nice counter argument. Just because you don't like the point doesn't mean it's not true. You have only empirical knowledge from the universe, therfore how can you possibly comprehend something outside of it. It would be like trying to describe to a caveman space when he thinks the earth is flat.

>>1637482
What is the image of your consciousness?

>>1637482
yahweh =/= god senpai
ignore the christian fools

>>1636434
>Implying God is ruled by linear logistics.

Maybe God can't become a part of this universe just like we can't being inside a computer.

>>1637563
>>1637495
What scientists say (the people who have been destroying religion since the renaissance) say that the big bang (the rapid expansion of the universe) was the beginning of the space-time continuum.

To ask "what came before the universe", doesn't make sense as a question. Before the universe there was no space, time, matter, etc.

It's like asking what was my reply before my reply, if you know what I mean.

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>>1636481

Hey, to all the Christian posters, this is just a friendly reminder that everything you're saying about the beginning of the universe is coming from people who thought we orbited the sun, and that the human race was created from dirt and ribs.

If we want to understand the origins of life and the universe, then we should consult scientists, not people who (dead for over 2,000 years) who stoned people to death for working on Sundays.

Your religion is incompatible with modern science. Get over it.

>>1636434
he was bought in god-shop

>>1636434
Before he created everything, his first action was to think himself into existence.

>>1637614
>It's like asking what was my reply before my reply

Read Plato pls

>>1636714
Good post, not surprised he ignored it.

>>1637632
I prefer to ask the Creator about His creation, thank you very much. He was actually there, and knows what He did.

The bible does not say the earth orbits the sun, nor can you say we were not made out of dirt, when we have 17 minerals that dirt has, and when we die, we turn back into dirt.

If you want to have answers, seek the truth.

If you want to be wrong your entire life, continue to be a victim of the Science Delusion.

>>1636434

I assume by now someone has informed you that God is an eternal spirit being, not a created being, and that He always was and always will be.

>>1637143
A creator who's having an awesome life.

>>1637481
God to Job is some of the best of the bible, ever.

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>>1637717
There is only one problem. The creator is nowhere to be seen to be asked from.

>>1637482
God is an eternal spirit being Who lives in unapproachable light.

He created us to have His Holy Spirit live in us.

In His image means He looks at us and sees Him.

Adam and Eve were made in God's image; since they fell and died, we're all made in Adam and Eve's dead and fallen image. Not God's. If you want to be in God's image, you have to be born again in the Spirit; you have to regain the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that Adam and Eve lost.

>>1637614
Before the universe, God was.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth......and He said light be!, and light was.

Time space matter energy. What the universe is made of.

>>1637734
Can you see me?

Can you ask me a question nevertheless?

>>1637744
"how"?

>>1637752
So we've settled that you don't need to see someone in order to ask them a question, yes?

If you want to know how God created the world, read the first few chapters of Genesis and read the last few chapters of Job.

Start expanding what your concept of God is, because He is greater than anything you can conceptualize.

>>1636703
No need to get butthurt little theist. There are plenty of other idiots for you to play with and reassure each other about your infinite rewards and eternal life. And your big strong god dad will come get me anyway right? Let's see who's laughing when you're literally watching me be tortured forever.

It's the middle school fantasy that lasts a lifetime.

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Why in the hell did this board have to be launched as "History & Hurr" rather than just the history board that people requested

>>1637760
I dont have to expand my concept of god. My concept of god is that it is fiction until proven otherwise by god himself.

>>1637764
It's not a fantasy.

>>1636434
>If God created the universe, how did he come to be?
It is considered Lord God created himself, he came out of a chaos.

>>1637767
That line of thought will lead you to a trial where you already stand condemned for not believing in Jesus, and where you will have to prove to the Creator of the universe that you are just as He is.

And then a pitch black lake of fire forever.

Are you 100.00000000000% positive that could never happen?

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>>1637768
>magic
>not fantasy

>>1637772
Considered by fools perhaps. God revealed Himself otherwise.

>>1637774
The works of God are not magic.

The judgments of God are not fantasy.

The consequences of your choices are not meaningless.

>>1637773
Says you. When I die I'm going to skeptics heaven

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>>1637717
>Science delusion

Are you one of those batshit crazy fuckheads who thinks the world is 6,000 years old?

>>1637772
well, who/what created the chaos?
>>1637773
If I am forced to burn forever for not taking things upon faith, then fine. I am being sincere here.

>>1637744
oh you fucking retard.

I can talk to you because of the internet and this messaging system. I'm using one of senses that humans hold to speak to you, and that is sight.

You """""""""""""""""communicate"""""""""""""""""" with God through "prayer".

Do you hear the voices in your head or do you interpret his words in the shape of clouds?

Go on, embarrass yourself for everyone's entertainment.

>>1637457
Do people really believe this shit? Like do you know about the universe?
God created all of the power raging in the sun, and millions of suns, and quasars, and the galactic core, across billions of miles, and all of the complexity of all of the subatomic particles and particles and everything everywhere? But it was hard to PUT UP WITH some misbehaving desert monkeys on one planet who weren't doing what he hopes they would when he CREATED THEM ALONG WITH THE WHOLE UNIVERSE?

This is the most childish and parochial shit I can imagine. This literally only makes sense when your understanding of the world is "it's some clay under some lights but I don't really know how any of it work so maybe someone made it the way I make a clay pot."

>>1637812
And let's remember, people's nervous systems are aroused alike sex or other stimuli when they have a religious experience, and that starts to act as proof for the very thing that caused it.

>>1637810
why do you assume that God must necessarily communicate in the same manner as humans?
The primary purpose of communication with God through prayer is a change of heart. It's not to literally hear God or ask for omens. Way to misunderstand prayer.

>>1637823
Meant to reply to >>1637812

>>1637823
Because if god would communicate in different manner than humans do, he would be just retarded and/or stupid and/or insane.

>>1637817
>be all you just wrote
>have to take shit from your creations
Don't think so

>>1637717
You're being mistrustful of science, yet you're relying on it in your day to day life as well as that bullshit argument about minerals. Seriously, think about what you just said there. Having some of the same chemical properties as something, does not make us the same as it. We share a huge amount of our DNA with chimpanzees but we are by no means the same at all.

Furthermore, we do not turn in to dirt when we die. That is not how decomposition works.

You seriously have a child's understanding of science.

Yes, the bible says the sun travels around Earth, in Joshua 10:13. It even goes a step further by saying it "stopped in the sky for a day".

Do you believe that happened? Maybe it's just a """"""""""""""metaphor""""""""""""""".

I want truthful answers but I will receive none of that in the Bible. Good, modern science began in the enlightenment which was the 18th century.

That's more than 1,800 years after the OT was written. How the fuck can I gain a scientific understanding of the universe from the bible?

>>1637826
>A change in heart

Surely if god was omniscient and omnipotent then he'd have figured out by now that "a change in heart" is an extremely ineffective means of communicating with humans.

I feel like changing your mind was actually just your judgement skills kicking in, and you prescribed them to a magical entity telling you to be healthy and get bottled water instead of coke.

>>1637818
That's called "the placebo effect".

"In a psychology experiment, a placebo is an inert treatment or substance that has no known effects. Researchers might utilize a placebo control group, which is a group of participants who are exposed to the placebo or fake independent variable. The impact of this placebo treatment is then compared to the results of the real independent variable of interest in the experimental group.

Even though placebos contain no real treatment, researchers have found they can have a variety of both physical and psychological effects.

Participants in placebo groups have displayed changes in heart rate, blood pressure, anxiety levels, pain perception, fatigue, and even brain activity. These effects point to the brain's role in health and well-being."

https://www.verywell.com/what-is-the-placebo-effect-2795466

You can look this up everywhere, it's interesting stuff.

>>1637482
Is anyone here do linguistics and translations?

>>1637632
Judging by how we have yet to prove that the laws of physics have no exceptions, that we can rationally observe the world & shit like that, I'd question the reliability of our deduction.

>>1637793
You can imagine anything you want, and then when you die, you'll find to your horror that your imagination doesn't have any power.

>>1637760
>>1637760
>Read this book to understand about god's work!

>What? Proof that this is god's word about his work? It says right there in the book, and primitive semites and greeks told us as much!

>>1637800
And you're one of the deluded who think that Science has a grasp on the universe in broad strokes, and only needs to flush out the fine details for a perfect understanding.

i.e. the Science Delusion.

>>1637810
And so is God, Who will honor your choice.

Maybe before you cast yourself into a lake of fire you get a better understanding of what the word "faith" means.

Don't people here know philosophy of science? Asking "Can you explain the explanation?" Is almost trying to obtain an endless regression of explanations explaining explanations.

>>1637812
And you can talk to God because He chooses to hear you.

>>1637847
I'm not, actually. I live by faith, as I am a born again Christian.

All my life God and the bible have been true and faithful.

All my life science has been wrong.

>>1637893
I actually laughed out loud when I read that. I'm guessing you think that statement doesn't apply to you, right?

>>1637893
>Says he as he blindly believes one religion among many
>As he praises faith in a land of reason
>Defying all logic to pursue the word of ignorant goat herders from millenia before
You'd have better odds being an animist. Son.

>>1636434
Why does something like that need to "come to be"? If it's eternal, surely it's always there.

>>1637847
>Do you believe that happened?

Yes, and there are fascinating historical documentation all around the world about the long night/long day, depending on the position of the observer.

Expand your concept of God. It includes being able to freeze the universe in place.

>>1637902
So, I would be given a choice of burning in hell for eternity if I would not accept without proof or reason a way of thinking or live in bliss for lying to myself and accepting ideas forced upon to me via the threat of damnation.

Fucked either way.

>>1637861
No, it's the only way. Your heart is the center of you; it's your will and emotions and thoughts and personality. It's who you are.

And He reads men's hearts; He does not listen to our words when He judges us.

>>1637894
About 30% of the bible foretells the future with 100% accuracy.

The bible tells the story of the earth from beginning to end, something only God can do.

>>1637915
Some basic theology says that the latter isn't an option.

>>1637903
>>1637902

>My explanation has no basis
>My logic says if Y, X->Y
Just no, this is sad and pitiful, if it isn't trolling.

>Science has been wrong!
>Says the moron while he types on an electronic device connected to other electronic device to people across the globe whose lives, livelihoods and enviroment all depend on the scientific observation of the world

>>1637907
I've already experience the power in the name of Jesus; the power of God's Word; and the power of the Holy Spirit to transform lives.

So no, I'm not you.

>>1637908
Believing God is following logic.

Choosing life, and good, and heaven, and God over death, and evil, and hell, and the devil, is following logic.

>>1637920
The bible contains about as much of future, history and pizza.

>>1637915
There's a mountain of proof.
There's a mountain of evidence.
What you have suffices to make a decision.

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>>1637861
Changing of hearts is not just how He communicates, but how He works in the lives of Christians. He wants to do the change, but He does so only through cooperation. Read the Bible. Notice how God always asks for consent and wants the Hebrews to work with him. Notice how God asked the Theotokos whether she would bear Christ, rather than force her. That's how God operates. By love, respecting the freedom of humans to choose whether they want to reciprocate it.

>>1637920
>About 30% of the bible foretells the future with 100% accuracy

About 125% of my penis is a red chitinous hellspawn cock.
Source: same as your claims, your ass.

>>1637922
Technology is not wrong in the way science is wrong. Technology is tool making.

You switching the debate to tools is you conceding you have no arguments for why science is always wrong.

the Science Delusion is quite real.

>>1637922
From a bystander point of view, that's not a good argument because some people spend their lives as priests or Popes & all.

>>1637934
Yup. He never forces anyone to do anything, and He never forces Himself on anyone.

He is Love, not Rape.

>>1637931
Really? Then prove logically that it is so.

>>1637939
>He is Love, not Rape
jesus christ you're the worst proselytizer I've ever seen. If you actually care about god then you should stop posting and smearing his name by extension

>>1637938
Even priests and popes use technology and accept scientific observation of the world instead of condemning it.

Faith and reason are distinct, if you try to impose your faith as logic and reason you're the one getting burned.
In fact, just needing to prove belief to others that aren't the divine is proof that you are not so certain of your own faith, which is beyond pathetic.

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>>1637933

>>1637941
Prove logically that believing God is following logic.

Asks the man who believes the Father of Lies, irrationally.

God does not tell the truth; God IS the truth.

The lies you believe, from the devil, are ALL lies; the devil does nothing BUT lie.

So you are in a situation where you cannot tell whether to believe the being who is truth, or the created being who always lies.

And you want logical proofs?

>>1637937
The tools only exist because scientific observation allows one to understand the inner workings of the world.
Technology is applied knowledge, science is one of the means to knowledge, probably the best since it has the most structure and foundation on epistemology.

More so than "I am right because book says and also because you go to hell if u no believe me!"

>>1637947

God made you a free will moral agent so that you can choose to love Him. He is Love.

God will not force His love onto you. That would be Rape.

It's not a difficult concept, and no, you will never stop me from telling the truth.

>>1637949
Perhaps you've noticed the universe?

The God Who made the universe is as real as the universe itself. More real, in fact, as He preceded the universe, and will survive it forever.

Stop living your life like an animal.

>>1637948
The relevance? How they do their job & their job itself is different.

>>1637954
>The "I became delusional and believe the world isn't as it is, but you have to trust me and let me shape the entire debate because my insanity is totally righ!" Post.
Don't get me wrong, christians are great neighbors, but you are just a faggot.

>>1637956

The Science Delusion. As real as it can be.

Do you even recognize that "science" said a man held the world on its shoulders? Or an infinite column of turtles held up the world? That leeching let out fire, and thus healed diseases caused by too much fire in your elements?

No?

What about the speed of light not being constant. Caught up to that one yet?

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>>1637959
What? God didn't give us free will, our free will has been greatly crippled by the effects of original sin. Only God can work the change in us that makes us accept him. Go read up on election and st. Augustine.

You're not a Methodist, are you?

>>1637948
I believe that the world is rational, that we can rationally observe it, & all that. I can't prove any of that is true but I do. Does that count?

>>1637968
Again, believing the truth does not make a person irrational.

Thinking lies are the truth makes a person irrational.

>>1637966
Relevance is that you are trying to condemn science while living surrounded by scientists' works.

It's like a lustful priest that screws peasant girls condemning the believers for going to the brothel.

>>1637975
You have no clue what "original sin" is, or its effects, because you've been taught by, what, catholics?

>>1637965
>The God Who made the universe
Literally a meme.

>He preceded the universe
Evidences???

>Stop living your life like an animal.
Humans are animals.

>>1637980
Science is always wrong.

If you can't grasp that, you're not a scientist.

>>1637974
None of those followed the scientific method. You're beyond delusional, you just want to justify your irrational beliefs by distorting the basis of the conversation.
You wanna say your glasses aren't broken, the world is, and we are all fools for seeing it normally.

>>1637986
>Muh
Nigger read the shit that he posted before and stop shitposting.

>>1637987
So, you are saying that everything following the advent of the scientific method has been proven to be true, never updated, and never incorrect.

Is that your position?

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>>1637982
Protestant detected.
Can't even make an argument, since they'll just go "b-but not MY sect of protestantism believes this!" then pulls out a bunch of passages.

We're predisposed to committing sinful acts because we've got a sinful nature as a result from the fall.

>>1637990
Delusional people need a few kicks before they realize they've been tricked.

The thought that "science" understands the universe in broad strokes, and is just fine tuning its understanding of the minutia, is a delusion.

The idea that we don't need God is an evil delusion.

The idea that we can explain everything without God being involved is just abject foolishness.

>>1637993
No, I am saying that you are trying to distort everything so you can justify your position. This includes painting a different picture.

Humans are fallible, and so are our methods to attain knowledge. But what you are doing is putting your pants on your head, shitting yourself then running around throwing everything out the window, proclaiming you are right because an ancient belief held by people that didn't even know what the world they lived in was like is true according to your new "logic".

It's like terryology but with religion.

>>1637994
Go ahead and explain "original sin", the way your priest stuffed it in your mouth.

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>>1637986

>>1637998
Humans are fallible.
Science is performed by fallible humans.
Science is therefore always fallible.

God is not.

>>1637994
>We're predisposed to committing sinful acts because we've got a sinful nature as a result from the fall.
St. Augustine was dumb. He was originally a Manichee, and he created the concept of Original Sin to refute Manichaeism's Cosmological Dualism. However, this indirectly led to the Problem of Evil and a lot of other issues that plague Western Theology.

Manichaeism and some older Gnostic Christian sects had none of those issues.

Also, Catholics massacred Cathars and were not true to the spirit of Christ.

>>1636666
No. And yes.
To say that God exists is to reduce the nature of God to human understanding.
The only proper way to explain and describe God in terms of what He is is to say it as He did: He is who is.

>>1638002
God made humans in his image.

>>1637993
Science is supposed to be a method of constantly identifying and clarifying errors. If better explanations and theories are discovered it's because a scientist discovered new facts by experimentation. You stupidly expect it to be a one-shot set of eternal rules like your Bible because you can't conceive of methodologies that differ from you own and you assume everyone is as mentally stunted as you.

>>1638000
If you were a scientist, you would argue that science may always have been wrong in the past, but that it's closing in on the truth.

Which is another lie, another scientific delusion, and more evidence you know nothing about any particular science at all.

>>1637996
>These things are bad or foolish but hey, I don't need to back any of this up to show how I arrived at my conclusions!
Or you could just admit that you only have a belief that you can't prove or disprove, but that you will hold dearly and faithfully as is required of the belief itself.

>>1638003
Catholics massacred far more peoples than just the Cathars.

>>1638005
I explained that above. Do try to keep up.

>>1638006
I understand science perfectly. It's the next best thing to believing God.

And is therefore useless for anything eternal. And only eternal things are important.

>>1637482
It's God. For man to understand Him is impossible.
Also, you should never take genesis litteraly. Only filthy dumb prottie scum do that.

>>1638002
God is a human observation
Humans are fallible
Turns out there was no observation, god was actually the same as all those myths and ancient misguided ideas you mocked

>>1638009
Believing the truth is not difficult.

Finding the truth is difficult. You'll never find the truth holding onto lies, and using mankind's capacities for reaching up to God (religions). Never.

>>1638007
Science is emprical, but that does not say it is always wrong.

>>1638022
God created the universe, well before humans existed to observe anything.

>>1638029
Name one empirical discovery in science that is absolutely true and will be true forever.

>>1638020
>Human worried with eternity
If there is free will, eternity is in your actions.
And right now for you, in stupid arguments trying to show up to those mean atheists about how your belief is totally not just a belief. I doubt God would be pleased with you wasting your time like that in a futile time to affirm your belief in him (more to yourself than anyone else).
But then again, unknowable amirite?

>>1637482
>God created us in his image
I don't think anyone knows what that line means exactly.

>>1638030
>Universe exists
>Therefore god exists and created it
Again. Y doesn't mean X->Y.
You are making assumptions, which are the basis of a belief, but stop trying to pass them as absolute truth.

>>1638022
>God is a human observation
>implying humans can observe something that exists outside of time, space, and all parts of human understanding

You're just as dumb as the people who think science can disprove the existence of God. God is inherently outside of the scope of science and human observation, and therefore any attmepts to comprehend or observe Him are a fool's errand.

>>1638037
If He didn't want me here, He wouldn't have sent me here, and He wouldn't be here with me.

These are things you cannot understand. Sorry. You have to give up the delusion that you are the greatest being in the universe first.

>>1638042
You have three choices. The universe is uncreated (eternal, steady state), self-created, or created by another.

The third choice involves God.

The first two are absurd and scientifically impossible.

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>>1637998
>applies the same standards of accruing knowledge to faith as we would to science or other fields of knowledge

We take things upon faith every day, Christianity is one such thing. There are a plentitude of good reasons to believe, most if not all have stood the test of time. There are logical, good reasons to take upon faith that things are so. Can we say with 100% security? No. But we don't have to, to take things on faith. That's the whole point of it.

You people who go "well, it's not been proven!", you're forgetting you yourself take things upon faith that you've never confirmed for yourself or has ever been confirmed by others, either. We, as individuals, believe that Napoleon lived some hundred years ago regardless of whether we've seen the evidence (of which there is plenty) first hand. Likewise you take on faith that your spouse speaks the truth and so on and so on. How much would we get done if we only accepted things we can prove 100% scientifically/logically? Very few things. How many people can genuinely say they take nothing on faith? None. How would our lives be, if we only believed that which is 100% confirmed, securely? Shitty. A good example of this is choosing to believe in an objective form of morality.

>inb4 b-but Christianity is different
Yeah, it transforms your life for the better, gives you purpose, can be experienced first hand etc. etc. etc.

>>1638042
>Again. Y doesn't mean X->Y.
So then the universe has no cause? If it has a cause, then there must be an X to cause Y.

>>1638033
Gravity? No I cannot say that it would be true forever, because science changes as new evidence is found, but that is the idea behind empirical science.

We do not just say, fuck you, god is almighty.

>>1638050
>You have three choices.

We don't. You're talking about something no one has the faintest clue about, so there are potentially an infinite amount of choices

>>1638043
So why do you bother? You can't know if he is there or not, you are just assuming based off of nothing.

>But it's not an observation
All myths and beliefs were based on humans observing the world and trying to create explanations. Your god is no different, you just try to elevate it to a special status because you hold dearly onto it.
It's like an atheist trying to claim science is always right and materialism is right, or a buddhist saying there is only one path to enlightenment, his.

>>1638056
What is gravity?

>>1638050
>or created by another
>the third choice involves God

So...more than one creator is just out of the question? Because, after all, that was the case 2,000+ years ago.

>>1638057
There are three rational choices. All of your millions of other choices, which are fictional, and which you could not list 10, not one of which that would not fall in those three categories, are you escaping answering difficult questions, and nothing more.

>>1638051
>We take things upon faith every day, Christianity is one such thing.

As is every other religion

>There are a plentitude of good reasons to believe

Wait, I thought you took your beliefs on faith, no reason, now you suddenly do?

>Yeah, it transforms your life for the better, gives you purpose, can be experienced first hand etc. etc. etc.

And a Muslim will say the exact same thing about Islam, and yet you're not a Muslim

>>1638062
God is a title belonging to the cause of the universe; if you think many people hold that title, those people are your gods.

There is only one true God, and none like Him, anywhere, ever.

>>1638058
>So why do you bother? You can't know if he is there or not, you are just assuming based off of nothing.
Because just because you can't directly observer something doesn't mean you can't observe it's effects.

The universe exists, and it must have a cause. That cause is God.
>All myths and beliefs were based on humans observing the world and trying to create explanations. Your god is no different, you just try to elevate it to a special status because you hold dearly onto it.
>It's like an atheist trying to claim science is always right and materialism is right, or a buddhist saying there is only one path to enlightenment, his.

But I never made claim to a specific God, but merely claimed that there must be a God.

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>>1638058
>points out that we're believing in something which has no proof
>says our religion is just our way of explaining the unexplainable
>above being an assertion that has no proof

Follow your own standards

>>1638068
>There are three rational choices

Yes, and whether something is 'rational' is decided by our own fallible judgement

>>1638071
Why do you think faith and reason are mutually exclusive?

>>1638079

Is this you saying you cannot think of a fourth?

Much less millions more?

>>1638055
No, learn how proositional logic works.
If Y, X is unknown. You don't know what implies Y, you can just guess.


>>1638051
Then admit it's a belief and move on with your life, then stop trying to impose or threaten people and accept the only one who needs to accept your belief is yourself.
Everything else be damned.

>>1638044
Well why did I get sent here then?

>>1638050
Nope, you actually have infinite possibilities, including divine but again, the exact nature of that is not defined. If you claim to KNOW instead of believeyou are dishonest.

>>1638079
So then nothing is rational, but only deemed rational by man?

>>1638080

If they're not, then please tell me what would objectively falsify your religious beliefs. Give me an objective, falsifiable methodology on how to test the claims your religion makes

>>1638077
Unless all religions are correct then they are simply attempts.

And if they are all correct I am never again going into the ocean

>>1638087
>If Y, X is unknown. You don't know what implies Y, you can just guess.
So then you're saying Y has no cause?

>>1638086

No, this is me saying that discussing an unknown unknown is completely pointless.

>>1638087
When I say God created the universe, I say X --> Y, X being God, and Y being the universe.

This presupposes the existence of God prior to the creation of the universe, and as God is eternal, follows naturally.

For you to say Y --> Y, the universe created itself, is to presuppose the existence of the universe prior to the creation of the universe, and is logically nonsensical.

As is the steady state universe theory, discarded by science a hundred years ago.

The only logical explanation for the existence of the universe is that it was created by another.

>>1638087
>Well why did I get sent here then?

To hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, the only hope mankind has for salvation.

>>1638091
Nothing. Nothing can falsify the truth. Nothing can falsify God.

These aren't my beliefs, like your beliefs are yours. My beliefs came from God, not from me.

>>1637905
>All my life science has been wrong

living in zero gravity must be cool, but I hear it's quite unhealthy.

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>>1638071
>as in every other religion
Not an argument

>I thought you took your beliefs on faith, no reason,
No, why do you believe so?
Look at it this way. Faith is a leap over a chasm. We use reasoning to make the chasm very small, to make our leap of faith smaller. The more reasoning we use, the smaller the leap of faith is. Reason is useful, reason has never disproved Christianity which is really impressive since it's made some grandiose claims over the time

>And a Muslim will say the exact same thing about Islam, and yet you're not a Muslim
Islam isn't as likely to be true as Christianity is. An example? According to the Quran, Jesus ascended to Heaven rather than being crucified - Muslims believe that Jesus dying on the cross would make him weak. This belief takes out one of the best evidences for Christianity, the crucifixion and proof of the historical life of Jesus.

It is true, there are many religions to choose. Christianity is the most reasonable one I've ever encountered, and the most reasonable one in existance I would think.

>>1638090
>only deemed rational by man

Yes, 'rational' is a concept that is only meaningful to a human brain, and we can never assume that it's infallible. At best, what we deem 'rational' is the model with the least amount of errors

>>1638097
Yet you reject the people who know the answer to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob created the universe, in order to have fellowship and collaborate with humanity.

You reject that based on nothing.

>>1638104

>Nothing. Nothing can falsify the truth. Nothing can falsify God.

>Why do you think faith and reason are mutually exclusive?

Looks like you just answered your own question

>>1638086
Not him:
1)Assume it's infinite.
2)Assume it's spontaneous
3)Assume it was originated in something
3.1) Origin was god
3.2) Origin was another god
3.3) Origin was itself, and is actually a self perpetuating cycle (so not really infinite)
3.4) Origin was actually the beginning of a simulated experience
3.5) Origin was the ghostly semen of yet anothee god
3.6) Origin was chaos
3.7) Origin was Joe the pizza man
You simply can't know.

>>1638105
It's actually deadly.

>>1638108
So then, how do I know your statement is rational, if rationality is manmadeS?

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>>1638087
>admit it's a belief and move on with your life
We've never, ever said anything to the contrary - Christianity IS a belief system, based ultimately on faith.
There are good reasons to believe, though - there are plenty of evidence to do so. Ultimately, the very last step is faith.

>>1638094
Catholics, amongst others, assert that most every religion has a kernel of truth, an intuitive way of grasping at God which is an experential truth - a limited truth, but a core of truth either way.

Just because a religion isn't the exact same as Christianity, doesn't make it necessarily, 100% wrong.

>>1638115
Does God know?

Can God communicate with people?

Does God have prophets?

Did God come to earth?

I agree, you cannot know, empirically. Because empiricism is not made for questions like these.

>>1638095
>>1638095
holy basketballs.

If you have X as true, and know that X->Y, you can know that Y is true.
If Y, and you know or believe X->Y, you don't know if X is true or not, because it might have also been A->Y with A as true, or B->Y, or even Y just IS.

You can't know what was with what is without any evidence, it'd be just guesswork, it is ultimately beyond your grasp unless some really amazing stuff came to light.

>>1638107
>Not an argument

It actually is. When several religions claim to be the only true one and all the other ones being false, they can't all be right. So which one is it, and how can this objectively be determined?

>No, why do you believe so?
>>There are a plentitude of good reasons to believe
>>a plentitude of good reasons to believe
>>good reasons
>>reasons

Gee, I don't know, I must've misread or something

>It is true

Yes, according to the Bible, which according to Islam has been corrupted, which means that Christians, according to them, commit shirk and are going to hell if they don't accept Muhammed as the final prophet

>>1638115
(You realize you still are only at 3, yes?)

>>1638107
Pastafarism is the most reasonable one.

>>1638129
You can't know, you can believe. But when your belief makes you claim to know you've broken it on it's back.

>>1637912
>Yes, and there are fascinating historical documentation all around the world about the long night/long day, depending on the position of the observer. [citation needed] [dubious-discuss]

I think you've missed the fact that the story is implying that the sun "stopped in the sky". This means that the sun is orbiting us. On Earth. The sun is orbiting the earth. Forget the fact that one side of the planet was scorched to a crisp while one froze...

Can you see the problem here?

>Expand your concept of God
You're trying to tell me that God is all powerful and therefore breaking the fundamental laws of nature is entirely within his capabilities.

For the sake of argument i will accept this... so why don't I see the laws of physics being broken regularly? If God is all loving then why aren't his miracles occurring all the time, and why did they only EVER occur in the Levant region?

It seems like this whole thing might just be like every other religion to have ever existed... made up by ignorant people as a coping mechanism...

>>1638133
Because they are variations of the "created by", the only intent was proving you that God isn't a requirement for an originated universe.

Also: 4) the universe isn't
Prove it's wrong?

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>>1638131
>There are many religions
This isn't an argument, but it's an assertion.

I think I know what you're getting at, and I answered it here >>1638121

Christianity being true does NOT exclude that other religions are somewhat true. Being an atheist assumes that ALL religions are untrue.

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>>1637916
I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this, but the heart is an organ that pumps blood.

Your personality, conscience, etc... that's all up in the brain.

>>1638131
>which according to Islam has been corrupted,

They have no evidence for this claim, and the quran says that the bible is the word of God.

>>1638142
Does God know?

>>1638112
>Yet you reject the people who know the answer to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob created the universe, in order to have fellowship and collaborate with humanity.

Of course I do, because their 'knowledge' (which I though was useless, since you said earlier that you took all of this on faith, not reason, but whatever) cannot be tested in any way, shape or form. It's basically nothing but mindless speculation that cannot be tested. Why should I care about it? It's as useful as discussing what type of sausage aliens in a parallel universe eat. It's a complete waste of time and certainly not reliable knowledge in any way

>>1638145
No, not at all. Most people watch the sun cross the sky. If it stopped, they would say the sun stopped.

You know, normal people.

You would see the laws of physics broken more regularly if you were around faithful born again Christians praying for and receiving miracles.

>>1638155
>They have no evidence for this claim, and the quran says that the bible is the word of God.

It says so in the Quran, which, according to Muslims, is the direct word of God himself. Seems like more than enough proof for a religious type like you, so I'd better face my ass towards Mecca if I was you

>>1638149
Again, the third choice was "caused by another".

I know which "other" created the universe; that you do not does not stop me from knowing the truth.

It's basically just your arrogance in saying that if you don't know something, nobody else can either.

>>1638157
Do you claim to know he knows?

>>1638152
>I think I know what you're getting at, and I answered it here

So basically, 'my religion i true and all the others are false because I say so'

>>1638154
The heart in Hebrew is as I described it; it's not just the pump, although the pump has some fascinating characteristics about it. But the language was Hebrew, so the Hebrew definition of heart holds.

>>1638170
>Claims to know the unknowable
>Calls others arrogants for wanting standards in verification of knowledge
Consider sudoku my lad.

>>1638158
Faith is the ability to believe something you have not seen.

It is not mutually exclusive with reason. It works with reason.

There's a reason the Roman empire suddenly became Christian. That reason is the passion and intensity and supernatural growth of Christianity following the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

>>1638163
Yes, the quran affirms that the bible is true.

The quran never says the bible was corrupted. And I don't take the word of satan for anything, or the word of his lying, stealing, murdering, pedophile "prophet" sans prophecies.

No, if I were YOU I would start believing Islam, because you are defenseless to them.

>>1638173
Yes. God knows what God knows.

>>1637934
I've read the bible, I had to for my A-levels.

OK, so at the time when Jesus was alive 0-thirty-somethingCE, the only people who could realistically be converted were those living around modern day Palestine?

After Jesus died, sacrificing himself, there were 10s of millions of people who could NEVER had heard of him. They would have never seen a middle easterner like Jesus, let alone a white person, or a person of a different colour of skin.

Did they all burn in hell or did God "ask" them to pls convert.

Even now in the 21st century, there are people who would have never have had the chance to see a missionary, get hold of a bible, hear the gospel, etc.

I sure hope God reaches out to them because no one else has. It would really suck if they had to burn in hell because God is a feckless piece of shit and can't be bothered to actually talk to people like humans do.

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>>1638175
No, my argument is that Christianity does not exclude other religions as you asserted, but your atheism does. That's what the argument was, don't put it into another context now by implying that my answer to your argument is the same answer I would give if I was asked why religion is true.

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>>1638170
This is like Genghis Khan calling someone a warmonger for trying to defend against his horde.

>>1638178
It's not unknowable.

At all.

God knows it; God revealed it; it's right there in the bible.

>>1638191
Wait, so you are claiming you know what God knows by saying God knows what God knows.

G-god Senpai, is that you?

>>1638194
What about you? Are you ready to answer to God for all of your evil acts?

>>1638180

>Faith is the ability to believe something you have not seen.

Yes, and reason is being able to test something you claim about reality

>It is not mutually exclusive with reason. It works with reason.


It sort of is, as when you're reasoning, you have to admit you could be wrong, something the faithful will never admit

>That reason is the passion and intensity and supernatural growth of Christianity following the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Right, or brutally oppressing and murdering pagan competition

>>1638180
>There's a reason the Roman empire suddenly became Christian.
Yes, pagan emperor constantine the great figured it was an effective way to control people.

>>1638188
>Yes, the quran affirms that the bible is true.

The Quran claims that Christianity has been corrupted by polytheism, and that Christians will go to hell for not accepting Muhammed as the final messenger of God.

So, which one is it?

>>1638200
>Book says book is true
>Therefore it is

Ebin :DDDDD
Your standards are so low it's almost sad. Do the ancient texts of other mythologies prove them too?

>>1638199
Again, the third choice was "created by another", not "created by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".

Many people have false candidates for who the other is; and there's a stiff consequence for that failure; for that rebellion.

>>1638206
You inferring God did not know what God knows was insipid. Dealing with the insipid is taxing.

>>1637781
>The works of God are not magic.

>Miracles
>Not another word for magic
>Being this retarded

>>1638209
That's not what reason is at all. No wonder you think faith and reason are mutually exclusive; you don't understand either.

>>1638224
I am asking you if you claim to know what he knows, can you give a straight answer or will you continue to evade the question like the good little fanatic that you are?

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>>1638194
The traditional, Christian understanding is that all other religions are the best attempts made by those cultures at their time to reach God. God, being an experential truth to everybody (not just Christians), has been exposed to everybody who tried listening to him. People who followed their own religion to try and follow his will, doing what is good in their hearts (since the law of God is written on every man's heart) is, presumably, saved. I can't say for certain, but this is the traditional, Christian view.

Jesus came only to preach to Jews, his Church did the rest. And it worked fine, since there are billions of Christians, and it has a presence in basically every single country.

>>1638216
300 years after this homeless itinerant Nazarene rabbi who totally was not God and totally did not rise from the dead told people to be nice to each other.

Is that how you "reason" things out?

>>1638217
The claim is false, as the trinity is one God.

Islam purports that the trinity is God, Jesus and Mary.

Islam is wrong on so many levels that you arguing for it is ponderous.

>>1638219
You are claiming to know something, providing no rationale for it other than [It is because it is] and then threatening people with damnation for not taking your word for it.

>>1638218
66 books, actually, written by about 40 men over a space of about 1500 years, and all inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.

>>1638200
Which bible?
And which parts of it? (Note, First council of nicea)
Which translation?
Do we use old, new, muslim and whatever later or earlier have added/deleted from there.

I love science, but science is a tool at best. I mean when it's actually utilized, it's at the mercy of man's intent. It's like a hammer. It can be used to build or to kill.

Now the word of God is far more realistic than the modern scientific hype/agenda, simply because it points out the true plague among man, man being the very thing that steers science when it's utilized.

As fascinating as the sciences are, the sad part, is that motive to look backwards, you're inevitably going to run into the void. That tall black wall of nothingness.

Now the word of God on the other hand, not only is far more realistic due to it's engineering perspective of the emotional spectrum which will forever be relevant, but also how not only an individual but people as a whole, how they're directly effected by 'sin' and what would be classified as evil.

But that black void science runs into, that tall wall that imprisons the science mind because he needs to see something first, which is essentially the boundaries for science, that's their prison. They can't escape beyond that.

As for that black void in relation to men of faith..

2 Corinthians 4:18
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Temporal....In the Second Book of Peter, Peter points out that the world was formed by water but will be destroyed by fire. We know glaciers can carve the earth and we know the sun will eventually burn beyond it's current state and increase in mass when it approaches it's latter half, ultimately destroying the earth by fire.

So science, the art of looking backwrds and into things, it has its uses, especially in the name of convenience. But it won't 'save' anyone. For one, there's no good or wisdom in science to counter greed or hate or anger or one of the worst which is jealousy. Science has no impact on who man is, all because it's a tool at best.

>>1638226
Magic comes from satan; the works of God are not magic.

>>1638162
>Watch the sun cross the sky
You know it's fine to admi when you're wrong right? You must know that this makes no sense and that it's no different from the fables ancient celts told each other.

Why do you believe this, but not how "Muhammad split the moon in two"

If people perceived the sun to have "stopped" in the sky (it doesn't move so it can't have stopped) then that would mean that the earth stopped spinning. If this happened for a day, which is what supposedly happened, then life would have been destroyed on earth.

>You would see the laws of physics broken more regularly if you were around faithful born again Christians praying for and receiving miracles.

Tell me where you live then, or where I can find some people who get miracles. I'm actually going to a party tomorrow, so getting booze out of water would be pretty lit.

Or maybe you're talking about the kinda miracles were "I prayed really hard and it stopped raining", because I won't bother if that's the kind of miracles you're talking about.

>>1638232
I know many things from Him, yes, including that He created the world, it fell, He redeemed it, and is saving as much of it as He can.

>>1638241
>success means it's correct
I guess muslims are right then since they exploded and took over countless christian areas.
Or maybe it's buddhism?
Shinto?

Does the Roman Empire spreading in the first place prove that latin-hellenic gods exist?
You are putting your ideas on top of a thin sheathe of ice and telling us to jump on top.

>>1638247
Again, revealed knowledge from God through His prophets, His Son, and Him directly is the source.

>>1637567
>Lemme just interpret this however I want and spew bullshit

The reformation was a mistake.

>>1638259
Well if anything that would make for a bitching tatoo.

>>1638251
Nicea had nothing to do with canon, much less which books are scripture.

66 books. You can figure it out from there.

>>1638253
Well said.

>>1638256
Sun rises in the east and sets in the west, right?

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>>1638218
I presume you like reading scientific textbooks,
>read scientific textbook
>believe what it says
ebin you're le worng!

No, both the Bible and credible, scientific textbooks make claims within their respective fields that require the dissertion of their respective fields. The Bible is partly historical, the gospels sure are. We should examine them for their historical content. Having done so, there are many good reasons to believe the Gospels are historically accurate, making it reasonable to believe in them. Especially if we also take into account how the events therein are supported by extra-biblical, historical evidence, too.

>>1638264
No, there's a REASON we're talking about Jesus today, and it's not because He taught the Law to Jews who thought they knew it already.

>>1638177
Ok I see what you mean.

Indeed, the Hebrews like all primitive civilizations thought the heart was the most important organ in the body, and is what makes humans who they are.

Let's get back to the topic though. A "change in heart" is just a phrase used to glorify someone changing their mind about something, when applying their judgement to a decision.

We change our minds every minute. Praying and then changing your mind about something is a textbook example of the placebo effect.

>>1638268
Then why do we have books that a recognized as part of the canon, yet they are not part of the bible?

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/problem-of-many/

>>1638280
>read scientific textbook
Actually, if you take everything in textbooks at face value you're doing it wrong. The point of peer review and reproducibility is that we need to confirm others' findings.

>we need to take everything in the bible at face value
Do you also believe every historical text the authors left us? How many times have we come across bias, misinformation, guess work and simple erosion due to time in historical sources?

>>1638286
What about you? Is your mind located inside your brain?

There's only one thing that a spiritually dead human being needs to change his heart on, and that is that he is a spiritually dead human being who can never on his own be like God.

Repent means to turn away from a former belief, that you could be good and avoid evil, and thus be like God, and agree with God that you are hopelessly lost and in need of a savior.

People repent of things all the time. Smoking, drinking, fapping, etc. But this one, salvation, is the only eternal thing we deal with, and thus the only important thing we have.

Our eternal souls, and their eternal destination.

>>1638207
Not an argument, lad.

Are you ready to answer to God for working on sundays, wearing clothes of different fabrics, eating shellfish, etc?

Stop being a hypocrite and copping out of arguments when you know you're loosing.

Admitting it when you know you're wrong is a sign of being mature :)

>>1637899
>And you're one of the deluded who think that Science has a grasp on the universe in broad strokes, and only needs to flush out the fine details for a perfect understanding.

Science is the reason you can even talk to us right now, not fucking magic. Science is the reason you don't drop dead when you get the sniffles. Not prayer, not magic. Thousands of years of people thinking your way lead to nothing but continued human suffering from disease and famine. In only a couple hundred years science has allowed for there to be billions of people and a fucking space station orbiting the earth. What science is doing now is greater than anything your book of bullshit peddles.

>>1638288
You might. I don't. I don't mix holy things with unholy things.

>>1638304
Yes, I am, because I am dead to the law through my death in Christ Jesus, and have Jesus' righteousness imputed to me.

I'm ready to stand before my Maker and answer for everything I have done in His Spirit.

are you?

>>1638306
Please don't think the ability to communicate with you is a net positive.

>>1638307
>holy and unholy
and who did the voting on which was which?

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>>1638298
It seemed like you read the first 4 lines and glossed over the last ones.
Go back, read what I said about having to apply the dissertion of the respective fields. I am not saying we should take them at face value, I am saying the opposite. It will bring many people to faith, if they did so.

>>1638314
Yep, standing right before him right now actually.
Looks awfully pissed, something about a fire extinguisher.

>>1638322
>I'm not saying we should take them at face value
Okay then, we can at least agree on that, Mr. Paintings.

>>1638234
Congratulations, that's the answer I was looking for.

I'm not christian or religious at all, but I consider your take on it to be the most logical if one was to accept that christianity is the one true religion, for the sake of the argument.

If you account for god's omnibenevolence though, you'd also have to rule out hell.

>>1638279
your point?

>>1638319
The Holy Spirit.

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>>1638330
>Congratulations, that's the answer I was looking for.
Go read the Roman Catholic Catechism, friend, it will say exactly the same in the very first chapter of the book.

>If you account for god's omnibenevolence though, you'd also have to rule out hell.

Can you expand on this?

>>1638336
By saying that very common saying, we are not saying the truth about the way the earth and sun are in relationship to each other.

But we say it because it's how we perceive it.

And if if were noon for 36 hours, we would say the sun stopped in the sky.

>>1638330
>If you account for god's omnibenevolence though, you'd also have to rule out hell.

God never described Himself as "omnibenevolent", whatever that means.

>>1638254
Are they not the same thing. Unholy magic and holy magic are still magic.

>>1638344
Of course it would, as you are incapable of independent thought and are following the black pope of Mystery Babylon to hell.

Everyone deserves to go to hell. Saying that God is unfair for putting people in hell for not believing in Him is absurd.

Had you actually bothered to read the bible for yourself, you would know that Paradise was well populated prior to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

>>1638359
There is no holy magic. All magic comes from satan. It's weaker than the works of God, it's more limited, and it's something to stay very far away from.

>>1638314
"Random cultist ramblings and threats

are you"

asking me the typical "are you" final question (for effect of course) is not going to work, mate.

If you give me irrefutable evidence that Christianity is the one true religion in your interpretation then I will become a Christian and repent.

If I gave you irrefutable evidence that God does not exist, would you stop being a Christian?

>>1638323
underrated comment

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>>1638361
you sound confused, I didn't make that claim, but quoted he who did.

>black pope of Mystery Babylon to hell
You sound really confused. I shall pray for you.

>>1638339
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_biblical_canon

I'm stopping here. Read and decide objectively or believe in magic of god.

>>1638364
So satans miracles are called magic or is it that Satan made magic which are like miracles but satan flavored?

>ctrl+f "eschaton"
>0 results

This board is thrash tier.

>>1637979
>Why is it the truth
>I said it's the truth

>>1638377
Satan is just a christian concept of saying "fuck you, we don't have to explain anything, it is due to satan"

>>1638344
>>1638350
The three attributes prescribed to the Christian God are omnipotence (all powerful), omnibenevolence (all loving), omniscience (all knowing) and omnipresent (everywhere).

Hell is a place of eternal torment, torture, pain and suffering. If God is all loving and forgiving then how could he banish his creations, to hell simply for making the logical conclusion themselves, that he does not exist?

I would not wish on anyone no matter how evil they are (I think it's inhumane), let alone voltaire!

>>1638130
Are you a moron? We know, through observation, that everything in the universe has a cause. Do you disagree with this?
Because of this, it is logical to say that the universe, Y, must also have a cause that in turn had no cause and needs no cause, that original causeless causer being X. Either Y had a cause or it didn't. We could substitute any variable in for X, we aren't talking about some spefic cause, like the judeo-Christian God, just a cause.
So do you agree that the universe must have a cause, which we call God, or do you believe that the universe always existed?

If White Genocide is real, would white lives matter?

>>1638002
>Why is God infallible
>Well it says so right here in my book
>Why is your book right
>Well it says so right here in my book

You are comically retarded.

>>1638330
>If you account for god's omnibenevolence though, you'd also have to rule out hell.
But that's wrong though. It sounds like you're stuck in the false view of hell, where God has sinners tormented and tortured for all time. Hell is merely a realm where God has no presence. People are sent there because they, in their actions, show that they do not desire to be with God, and God, being all loving, respects that choice and let's them live without Him. Now, this causes suffering because the soul inherently desires to be with God, but actions have consequences, and God makes very clear that being with Him is much better than going to hell.

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>>1638401
>three attributes
>list four
ayy

>Hell is a place of eternal torment, torture, pain and suffering. If God is all loving and forgiving..

You've got the view that God is the one who banishes and sends people off to Hell, it's a common view, but a wrong view.

We, as humans, either choose to live with God or choose to live without him. God does not force himself upon humans. Those who choose him, receives him (through the Eucharist and going to Heaven) and those who do not choose him does not get to be with him (no Eucharist, Hell).

The absence of God is literally torture and anguish. It's horrible. The presence of God, which is strongest in Heaven, is perfection.

>simply for making the logical conclusion themselves, that he does not exist?

We cannot blanket say "atheists go to hell", because Catholics have generally had the belief it's possible for even atheists to be saved if they're in genuine ignorance, but still are moral in their hearts. It's much, much more difficult, and they're certainly doomed if they knowingly disregard God, though.

We cannot say "these people are certainly damned", nobody knows who is in Hell besides God.

This is really just going back to how God requires our consent before he actively will cooperate with us.

I believe the Orthodox concept of Hell is that Hell and Heaven is really just the same place: it's feeling the presence of God. To those who have opened their hearts to God, his embrace is perfect and lovingly. To those who have closed their hearts to God, his presence burns them. I'm not sure if this is heretical or not, but it's a view worth investigating if you're tripping over this issue.

>>1638405
>everything in the universe has a cause
>therefore the universe must also have a cause
Logical fallacy. The universe isn't part of the set of everything in the universe.

>>1638372
Black pope: your current Jesuit pope, Francis
Mystery Babylon: appears in the bible as the Harlot of Babylon, the city ruling over the kings of the earth in the time of John, set upon 7 hills.

Rome.

I'm not confused at all, papist.

>>1638401
"omnibenevolent" is merely an atheist strawman; God never says He is "omnibenevolent".

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>>1638532
protties generally believe all popes are equally bad, but you seem to hate papa Francis moreso than the other popes

what's wrong with him being a Jesuit?

>>1638535
god never says anything else.

>>1638535
Are you sure about that? God having unconditional love for all human beings is a belief held by pretty much all Christians. I literally had to tell you what it meant, so I don't think you're in a position to make bold statements like that.

>>1638377
It really isn't a hard concept to grasp if you actually attempt to understand it and not spout your little internet atheist jargon.

t. non christian

>believing in god
americlaps need to get nuked

>>1637936
>didn't read the Bible
>thinks he can make any claims regarding it
lol

>>1638470
>Logical fallacy. The universe isn't part of the set of everything in the universe.
So then the universe has no cause?

>>1638411
You thinking God is fallible is just you projecting.

>>1638433
>(through the Eucharist and going to Heaven) and those who do not choose him does not get to be with him (no Eucharist, Hell).

This is the lie of the whore of Babylon, that seeks the whole world over for a convert and when found, that person is twice the son of hell as before.

>>1638540
His order was founded as an order of assassins, and swore an oath never to pursue authority.

All popes are likely in hell, yes, but this one is the False Prophet of Mystery Babylon, the one seeking to unite the world into one religion and hand it off to the Antichrist.

>>1638558
He says He is holy, just, righteous; those things preclude "omnibenevolent".

>>1638560
If you think God has unconditional love for all human beings, you'd be hard pressed to explain why Jesus said most people end up in eternal torment.

& Humanities was a mistake

>>1638684
Your mother not slamming the door in front of that German shepherd was a mistake.

>>1636915
>>1636902
>>1636902
Well yeah
We anthropomorphize animals and sometimes plants as well.
Thats how humans relate to things.
Which isn't to sad that God doesn't have feelings, since I imagine he does.
>Weren't humans created in the image of God?
I personally have always considered that a metaphorical thing, not a physical appearance thing, but I would stand to reason that if God is taking a form his natural state is a humanoid-form.
Then again, apes look like humans, since humans are apes......but they aren't generally regarded to look in gods image.

"image" can refer to alot of things, potentiality, ambition, depth of feeling, capacity for societies.....
And even then, its not as if humans are wholly unique among animals, plenty of other creatures have the same capabilities we have just not all at once.

>>1637731
i'm gonna have to read that asap

>>1636714
>They indeed have forms, from a biological standpoint

There are biological correlates to emotions, certain chemical reactions that take place when we have certain emotions, but there is nothing that are identical to them that can be found since they are qualitative existences and not quantitative ones. This is the general philosophical problem( its only a problem for naturalism) of qualia.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/

Saying that X happens whenever Y happens and therefore X=Y is not a solid means of argumentation.

>>1637482
Humans have free will like God does, humans have an intellect like God does, humans can love like God can.

>Good, modern science began in the enlightenment which was the 18th century.

Why does'nt Newton count ?

>>1638306
Being able to do useful things with science like cure diseases does'nt entail that it actually has good answers to those questions which don't have any pragmatic effect on our lives, like with questions of cosmology, the fundamentals of the universe, etc. Science has a great track record on getting nice approximations that we can use to manipulate nature for our ends with. Considering how most of our theories about the "big questions" turn out to be wrong, have a blind faith that Science has all the answers is pretty misguided.

>>1638401

If we consider that A. God is immutable and unchanging so everything he does is done for others, and that B, by definition, what God does is good, and C.To "love" is to want what is good for a creature for its own sake, then God is omnibenevolent, everything he does and wants to do is good, and everything he does is for the sake solely of others and not himself. Kant pointed out that by punishing others you respect their agency.

>We know, through observation, that everything in the universe has a cause.

We don't actually know this.Even if everything we've experience has a cause that does'nt logically entail that everything has a cause.

here's a thought-

>Some philosophers have argued that it is impossible, or at least improbable, for a deity to exhibit such a property alongside omniscience and omnipotence, as a result of the problem of evil.

I have personally come to the conclusion that God is "primarily" good, and some neutral.
noy evil in anyway
not not necessarily good, since "good" is a conditional thing anyway, and good is not wholly the same for all people.

Thoughts?

>>1637737
>>
>Adam and Eve were made in God's image; since they fell and died, we're all made in Adam and Eve's dead and fallen image. Not God's. If you want to be in God's image, you have to be born again in the Spirit; you have to regain the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that Adam and Eve lost.
damn
this is so good
great reasoning anon, this makes perfect sense.
>>1638882
>Humans have free will like God does, humans have an intellect like God does, humans can love like God can.
counter-argument
Most other animals have free will, intellect and the ability to give/receive love, although in varying quantities and combinations.

What then makes humans unique

>>1638630
That doesnt answer the question, so is questioning this christian notion making me edgy because you cant respond with an answer? What is the inherent difference between magic and miracles?

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If you were religious and truly believed that your God was infinitely more important than all life on earth then why did you come to an anime porn website to bicker about it?

>>1638420
this sounds like the Jehovah's Witness interpretation, where Hell is simply nothingness, as opposed to a more common evangelical version where hell is eternal damnation and suffering.
>>1638882
>>1638433
just out of curiosity what do you two make of suicide?

>>1638945
>What is the inherent difference between magic and miracles?
the source of the power.
look at it like this:
>magic=AC
>miracles=DC

Mircales have a pure source (God/Heaven) Magic has an unpure "evil" source (Lucifer/hell), and is merely an imitation of Mircales

>>1638993
So magic is like miracles except "evil" because Satan does them.

>>1638673
>>1638560
I was about to say "isn't "omnibenevolent" a word created simply to mean " holy, just, righteous", but upon further consideration,
>holy, just, righteous=/=omniscience and omnipotence
HOWEVER, got does make it clear (in my interpretations at least) that he is all-powerful, and all-knowing, so idk
>>1639005
that is what I would conclude.

>>1638912

We have it in a higher degree than the other animals, we are special by proximity. "Man was made in God's image" does't mean we are closest to him, nor does it mean that other creatures weren't also made in his image. Angel's, if they exist, are even closer to God, Dolphins less so, but they aren't that far off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being

>>1638958
No opinion really.

>>1636434
>he

God is a chick.

>>1639112
I personally view god as an androgynous being, with varying degrees of masculinity and femininity.
That noted, God has traditionally been referred to as he, because of the human power structure/the patriarchy, and "he" was formerly the "gender neutral" pronoun in English until "they" became more common in the last few hundred years.

>>1639110
>We have it in a higher degree than the other animals, we are special by proximity.
okay thats what i would have also reasoned.

Does the great chain of being have an actual biblical basis?
Aside from reasoning/drawing acceptable logical conclusions from the bible that is.

>>1638957
>blue boards are red boards

>>1636434
Being is finite. God is not a being

>>1637563
>therfore how can you possibly comprehend something outside of it.
This is a self-defeating argument. Since we can't comprehend something outside of it, there's no point in even talking about it — you CAN'T talk about it because you don't know what "it" even is.

>>1639207

Doubtful, it is first and foremost a Neoplatonic concept. On the other hand Christianity as we know it has more to do with Greeks than Jews, and is more so a neoplatonic religion than it is a semitic one. After the initial disciplines were through it went through a radical transformation, and we only have any actual knowledge of Christianity from that stage onwards. I would count the NT as just another piece of Neoplatonic literature personally.

None of it makes any fucking sense.

>>1638377
Satan is a spook

>>1640152
>we only have any actual knowledge of Christianity from that stage onwards. I would count the NT as just another piece of Neoplatonic literature personally.
hmm
thats a very interesting manner in which to interpret things.
so which would you consider "more valid" with regard to it being the word of God, the OT or the NT?

What if the NT was ONLY the books that are accounts of Jesus?
can one have a full picture of Christianity that way?

>>1639198
Is gender even applicable to anything like God?

>>1641252
no, not in the slightest.
i was just commenting since anon brought it up.
The way i view things, God is gender-less or all-gendered, however you want to look at it.