>"by a miracle, the bread and wine turns into the actual,

Leave em alone

They're retarded but not hurting anyone

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>>1616142
>They're retarded but not hurting anyone

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>Be me visiting cath. church with mom
>First row right next to priest so whole congregation can see us
>I'm wearing my mjolnir necklace under my shirt unbeknownst to the judeo-christian sheeple whose whole desert fuck ""religion"" is built upon stolen pagan rituals and symbolism
>Don't make sign of the cross
>Don't say amen or sing or anything
>When the cuck (he had a really whiney and nasal weird voice) brought out the bread i didn't go there to "receive" it
>Christcucks behind my back get extra butthurt about me visibly refusing to take part in their cult so they say "amen" extra louder each time

I've seen the green pill and judeo-christianity isn't it

>>1616155
>pulling up shit from 1572
Like I said

They're not hurting anyone

>>1616142
>but not hurting anyone

Yeah, because they made a point of killing or forcibly converting pretty much anyone who disagreed with them.

>blahblahblah everything is symbolical and you're the stupid one for not getting it, not me, even though I look like one

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>>1616097
1. Bread and wine shows the continuity with Passover.

2. Bread and wine are foods everyone partook of, the basic foods. This breaks down distinctions of culture or class by a common meal.

3. Bread and wine are of more spiritual taste than flesh and blood. Monks, for instance, can't eat meat because not eating meat makes them more spiritually inclined.

4. It shows God is sustaining you, and ties in with "our daily bread". Bread and wine, being the basic staples, are therefore mystically tied to God, the most fundamental of staples.

5. Breaking bread signifies fellowship in ancient times. Food was never a solitary activity. Even drinking water, in the Bible, is always shown to to be a social activity.

6. Proverbs 9:5 (the word here is literally "bread", not food, as in some translations).

7. Christianity is poetic mysticism, not analytic philosophy. Bread and wine as flesh and blood is more poetic and beautiful than raw flesh and blood as empirically observable.

8. Christianity is not only non-materialist, but also generally shuns materialist proofs, since they make faith-without-seeing impossible, and faith-without-seeing is considered childlike and favorable, since it is conducive to a mindset of delight and wonder instead of a clinical one.

9. Without bread, the strong imperative against yeast during Passover in the OT is less meaningful. In Orthodoxy, the Eucharist is always leavened, since leaven is seen as signified the completing, the fulling of the covenant in Christ, adding what was lacked in the Old Covenant.

10. It makes us look like fools and allows us to be derided by those like yourself, which is goodly in God's eyes. If being a Christian made you look intelligent, it would be more likely to draw than arrogant than if Christianity made you look like a fool. "Holy Fool" is even something especially in Orthodoxy, those who are retarded or otherwise "mentally ill," are regarded as gifts from God and to be treated with respect.

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>>1616171
>They're not hurting anyone

Except they do. In many countries - including the U.S - both lay Catholics and clergy are politically involved in efforts to cut funding and access to sex education or to sexual health services, and this is detrimental to the public health. The impact can be quite significant, as in the case of those HIV-ridden African countries, where clergy on all levels call condom-usage and family planning 'sin' and due to the high religiosity of people there, they shun these measures that could prevent further cases.

That's one example. Another would be the way Catholic blocs attempt to lobby against same-sex unions or bills that would protect them from discrimination; and of course, there is both the child sex abuse scandal as well as Catholic interference in the political scenes of Catholic countries (for example, the Philippines or Malta, where it is not unknown for priests to actively tell laymen that voting for [insert any slightly 'progressive' party] is a sin.

>>1616194
There is some serious magic going on in that pic.

>>1616196
Some monasteries only allow the Great Schema in death, as for your funeral clothes.It's difficult to reach in life because they don't monks getting puffed with those clothes, but those who do attain the Great Schema in life are extremely humble, quite, and fast beyond even the levels of regular monks. They never leave the monastery with being asked to by their bishop.

>>1616216
they don't *want

>>1616216
*quiet

>>1616216
*without being asked to

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L A N C I A N O

>Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 19:26

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>>1616216
>>1616218
>>1616219
>>1616220
>Great Schema

Talk about being a useless parasite.

>>1616194
Well at least you're fully aware of how retarded you appear. That's all we can ask for really.

>>1616226
Monks are probably the only real communists, since they take Acts 2:44. They aren't parasites, they labor very hard and generally are self-sufficient. They don't use money. Saint John Chrysostom, when asked what should be the difference between a married man and a monk, said one should be married. Monks are the ones who keep very seriously to the original Christian lifestyle, which is why in Orthodoxy they are so highly regarded.

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>>1616195
>child sex abuse scandal
Reminder that according to the John-Jay-Report, 80.9% of the abuse victims in the United States were male; and a study by Dr. Thomas Plante found the number may be as high as 90%.

The issue is the mental illness of homosexuals.

>>1616227
We are aware.1 Corinthians 4:10

Look up Saint Basil the Fool

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>>1616224
>Lanciano
>believing in some purported miraculous account from the 8th century CE

Are you fucking serious? Know full well the penchant that Medieval people had for exaggerating and outright fabricating stories and accounts, you present this as your "proof" that transubstantiation is real?

Man, Christcucks are dumb.

>>1616244
No, the issue was covering it up and playing musical chairs with priests who abused boys.

>>1616249
>ignoring all the studies that have been conducted

>>1616142
They hurt the dignity of the human race by existing, observe >>1616194

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Reminder that the fucking mods will delete and ban anyone who attacks atheism but lets this shit fly.

>>1616255
This is a history board, if you want to yammer on about magic go back to /x/

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>>1616261
Not him but I'll show you magic my nu-male friend.

Orthocucks, where can I find a youtube video, podcast with hard preaching like pastor Anderson by one of your priests, one that is critical of the modern world and talks about current events?

>>1616269
Read "Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age". It critiques everything about modernism, from art to democracy

But you can skip the preface, which isn't by the author

http://oodegr.co/english/filosofia/nihilism_root_modern_age.htm

>>1616265
Reminder that you are less skeptical than a medieval bishop if you believe in this shit.

>>1616265
>nu-male friend.
?

>>1616142
They are "not hurting anyone" because they are being squashed beneath the boot of secularism. The moment we "leave them alone" they will make their savagery evident.

>>1616252
>studies

There is no testimony that the monk's story was backed up by worshippers. When one goes back, the earliest account of the event is an inscription that dates from 1631 that tells the story. It cannot be proved that the miracle happened in the 8th century. There is no half-decent evidence.

The blood has clumped. It has not stayed fresh. Looking at the 'flesh', one can see that that it has rotted away in the middle. What is left is something that is clearly mummified.

Additionally, the one and only study performed in 1970 was never accepted for inclusion in peer reviews.The doctor, Linoli, stated a number of lies as well, concerning the study he performed. He claimed hat the "preservation was inexplicable and the flesh and blood were not taken from a corpse as they would have decayed fast." But this is a lie as well, since parts of the body can be mummified and preserved. In his report he talked about "the Miraculous tissue" and "the Miraculous heart fragment". It has not been proven that the flesh is miraculous in origin. Even if its preservation is strange, the preservation was extremely poor,.

The alleged report by WHO which backed up his findings cannot be found anywhere. Does it exist?

>>1616271
Nah man I need something to listen to while I study for a test. I'll save that to read later though.

>>1616271
The work explains, among other things, how Nietzsche's attempt to provide an atntidote to nihilism, is ultimately sublated by nihilist dialectic and simply becomes an inoculation for it against attempts to dismantle nihilism

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>>1616272
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZKocFGQf24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp8AF7i9A3U

Summary of scientific and historical evidence supporting the authenticity of the Shroud:
http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf

Shroud-like coloration of linen by nanosecond laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet (it explains that they replicated the shroud's qualities using laser pulsations, which so far is the only way anyone has been able the replicate the shroud's qualities):
http://www.sindone.info/DILAZZA3.pdf

Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin:
http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF

Nuclear imaging:
http://shroud.com/pdfs/whanger.pdf
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf

Raymond N. Rogers' observations and conclusions:
http://shroudnm.com/docs/2013-01-10-Yannick-Cl%C3%A9ment-Reflections-on-Ray-Rogers-Shroud-Work.pdf

Also, here's some secular peer-reviewed scientific journal articles on the Shroud of Turin:
http://shroud.typepad.com/topics/2005/10/secular_peerrev.html

>>1616281
haha what the fuck
this board is too much

>>1616247
>we were only pretending to be retarded
>you're the real idiot for pointing it out
Always a pleasure, Constantine.

>>1616277
>lying
Even atheist wiki disagrees with you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano#Investigations

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>>1616265
>>1616281
The Turin shroud is a forgery from the 13th century... It was already proven in 1988 by carbon-dating testing from three world-renowned laboratories.

Get with the times.

>>1616278
You might try this: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/freeman/history_post_modernism_and_orthodoxy

>>1616237
>>1616216
>>1616216
>>1616194

Trip on Constantine.

Otherwise p good posts t b h

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>>1616287
The 1988 Carbon-14 tests done at Oxford, Zurich and Arizona Labs used pieces of the same sample cut from a corner.

1. A paper published in Jan 20, 2005 in the journal Thermochimica Acta by Dr. Ray Rogers, retired Fellow with the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory and lead chemist with the original STURP science team (the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project, involving approximately 35 scientists directly examining the Shroud for five days), has shown conclusively that the sample cut from The Shroud of Turin in 1988 was taken from an area of the cloth that was re-woven during the middle ages. Here are some excerpts:

"Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area, coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations, prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud."

"As part of the Shroud of Turin research project (STURP), I took 32 adhesive-tape samples from all areas of the shroud and associated textiles
in 1978." "It enabled direct chemical testing on recovered linen fibers and particulates".

"If the shroud had been produced between 1260 and 1390 AD, as indicated by the radiocarbon analyses, lignin should be easy to detect. A linen produced in 1260 AD would have retained about 37% of its vanillin in 1978...The Holland cloth, and all other medieval linens, gave the test [i.e. tested positive] for vanillin wherever lignin could be observed on growth nodes. The disappearance of all traces of vanillin from the lignin in the shroud indicates a much older age than the radiocarbon laboratories reported."

(1/2)

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>>1616287
>>1616294
"The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally. The thermal conductivity of linen is very low... therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot." "The cloth's center would not have heated at all in the time available. The rapid change in color from black to white at the margins of the scorches illustrates this fact." "Different amounts of vanillin would have been lost in different areas. No samples from any location on the shroud gave the vanillin test [i.e. tested positive]." "The lignin on shroud samples and on samples from the Dead Sea scrolls does not give the test [i.e. tests negative]."

"Because the shroud and other very old linens do not give the vanillin test [i.e. test negative], the cloth must be quite old." "A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000- years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years."

"A gum/dye/mordant [(for affixing dye)] coating is easy to observe on...radiocarbon [sample] yarns. No other part of the shroud shows such a
coating." "The radiocarbon sample had been dyed. Dyeing was probably done intentionally on pristine replacement material to match the color of the older, sepia-colored cloth." "The dye found on the radiocarbon sample was not used in Europe before about 1291 AD and was not common until more than 100 years later."

"Specifically, the color and distribution of the coating implies that repairs were made at an unknown time with foreign linen dyed to match the older original material." "The consequence of this conclusion is that the radiocarbon sample was not representative of the original cloth."

(2/3)

>>1616284
No, Christians are not only pretending, but actually fools, by the world's standards for believing in Christianity. If you are not prepared to be an utter and abject fool in the world, you are not prepared to be an Orthodox Christian

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>>1616287
>>1616294
>>1616297
"The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud."

"A significant amount of charred cellulose was removed during a restoration of the shroud in 2002." "A new radiocarbon analysis should be done on the charred material retained from the 2002 restoration."

Raymond N. Rogers. 20 January 2005. Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of turin. Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 425, Issue 1-2, Pages 189-194.

2. The Fire-Model Tests of Dr. Dmitri Kouznetsov in 1994 and Drs. John Jackson and Propp in 1998, which replicated the famous Fire of 1532,
demonstrated that the fire added carbon isotopes to the linen.

Dmitri Kouznetsov, Andrey Ivanov, Pavel Veletsky. 5 January 1996. Effects of fires and biofractionation of carbon isotopes on results of radiocarbon dating of old textiles: the Shroud of Turin. Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 23, Issue 1, Pages 109-121. doi:10.1006/jasc.1996.0009

Jackson, John P. and Propp, Keith. 1997. On the evidence that the radiocarbon date of the Turin Shroud was significantly affected by the 1532 fire. Actes du III Symposium Scientifique International du CIELT, Nice, France.

(3/3)

http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf

>>1616286
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano#Investigations

Why would I count investigations conducted by clergy-men who had no medical or scientific training? I only count Linoli's investigation since he at least was a physician, and even then, he was a hack.

Consider that there are no reliable cited sources for the claims on Wikipedia. One out of two citations is a dead link. Way to go.

>>1616293
I took my trip off because I've been told it's obnoxious

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>>1616287
New experiments date the Shroud of Turin to the 1st century AD. They comprise three tests; two chemical and one mechanical. The chemical tests were done with Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Raman spectroscopy, examining the relationship between age and a spectral
property of ancient flax textiles. The mechanical test measured several micro-mechanical characteristics of flax fibers, such as tensile strength.

The results were compared to similar tests on samples of cloth from between 3250 BC and 2000 AD whose dates are accurately known. FTIR identifies chemical bonds in a molecule by producing an infrared absorption spectrum. The spectra produce a profile of the sample, a distinctive molecular fingerprint that can be used to identify its components. Raman Spectroscopy uses the light scattered off of a sample as opposed to the light absorbed by a sample. It is a very sensitive method of identifying specific chemicals.

The tests on fibers from the Shroud of Turin produced the following dates:

FTIR = 300 BC ± 400 years; Raman spectroscopy = 200 BC ± 500 years; and multi-parametric mechanical = 400 AD ± 400 years. All the dates have a 95% certainty.

The average of all three dates is 33 BC ± 250 years (the collective uncertainty is less than the individual test uncertainties). The average date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus’ death on the cross in 30 AD, and is far older than the medieval dates obtained with the flawed Carbon-14 sample in 1988. The range of uncertainty for each test is high because the number of sample cloths used for comparison was low; 8 for FTIR, 11 for Raman, and 12 for the mechanical test.

The scientists note that “future calibrations based on a greater number of samples and coupled with ad hoc cleaning procedures could significantly improve its accuracy, though it is not easy to find ancient samples adequate for the test.”

(1/2)

>>1616294
>>1616297
>>1616301
It's a proven forgery. Only Christians continue to revisit the issue for cheap shots to advertise their faith, whereas respectable scientists and academics no longer bother with something that was confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt to have been a Medieval forgery.

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>>1616287
>>1616306
They used tiny fibers extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana, who gave them to Fanti. Riggi passed away in 2008, but he had been involved in the intensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin by the STURP group in 1978, and on April 21, 1988 was the man who cut from the Shroud the thin 7 x 1 cm sliver of linen that was used for carbon dating.

These tests were carried out in University of Padua laboratories by professors from various Italian universities, led by Giulio Fanti, Italian professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s engineering faculty. He co-authored reports of the findings in 1) a paper in the journal Vibrational Spectroscopy, July 2013, “Non-destructive dating of ancient flax textiles by means of vibrational spectroscopy” by Giulio Fanti, Pietro Baraldi, Roberto Basso, and Anna Tinti, Volume 67, pages 61-70; 2) a paper titled “A new cyclic-loads machine for the measurement of micro-mechanical properties of single flax fibers coming from the Turin Shroud” by Giulio Fanti and Pierandrea Malfi for the XXI AIMETA (Italian Association of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics) congress in 2013, and 3) the 2013 book “Il Mistero della Sindone” (The Mystery of the Shroud), written by Giulio Fanti and Saverio Gaeta in Italian.

(2/2)

http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf

>>1616303
Please, put it back.
It helps us filter you.

>>1616303
The way you post and structure your arguments make you immediately identifiable every time. Though, if nothing else, at least you aren't Sakurahime, I'll give you that much.

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>>1616308
>talking out of your butt

See >>1616281

This paradigm assumes that the radiocarbonists’ claim that the Shroud of Turin is a 14th century forgery is correct. It is based on what that conclusion tells us about the forger. It tells us that:

1. The forger first painted the bloodstains before he painted the image.

2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.

3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.

4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.

5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.

6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.

7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.

Imagine living your one human life being so mind controlled by the forces around you that you go to such unreasonable lengths to prove to yourself of some crank theory to justify your already insane superstitions.

There's no other word for it than pathetic.

>>1616308
>proven forgery
in your dreams

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>>1616308
>>1616321
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.

9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.

10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.

11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.

12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.

13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.

14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.

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>>1616308
The image on the Shroud is of a man 5 feet 10 ½ inches tall, about 175 pounds, covered with scourge wounds and blood stains. Numerous surgeons and pathologists (including Dr. Frederick Zugibe (Medical Examiner - Rockland, New York), Dr. Robert Bucklin (Medical Examiner - Las Vegas, Nevada), Dr. Herman Moedder (Germany), the late Dr. Pierre Barbet (France), and Dr. David Willis (England)) have studied the match between the Words, Weapons and Wounds, and agree that the words of the New Testament regarding the Passion clearly match the wounds depicted on the Shroud, and that these wounds are consistent with the weapons used by ancient Roman soldiers in Crucifixion.

Specifically, the scourge marks on the shoulders, back, and legs of the Man of the Shroud match the flagrum (Roman whip) which has three leather thongs, each having two lead or bone pellets (plumbatae) on the end. The lance wound in the right side matches the Roman Hasta (4cm x 1 cm spear wound). Iron nails (7" spikes) were used in the wrist area (versus the palms as commonly depicted in Medieval art). These marks, combined with the capping of thorns which is not found anywhere else in crucifixion literature of ancient Roman (Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Elder or Pliny the Younger) or Jewish (Flavius Joesphus, Philo of Alexandria) historians create a unique signature of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

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>>1616329
>"In 1988, scientists at three separate laboratories dated samples from the Shroud to a range of AD 1260–1390, which coincides with the first certain appearance of the shroud in the 1350s and is much later than the burial of Jesus."

It's a forgery. Go shit up another thread.

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>>1616308
The Shroud of Turin’s images are superficial and fully contained within a thin layer of starch fractions and saccharides that coats the outermost fibers of the Shroud. The color is a caramel-like substance, probably the product of an amino/carbonyl reaction. Where there is no image, the carbohydrate coating is clear. There is also a very faint image of the face on the reverse side of the Shroud of Turin which lines up with the image on the front of the cloth. There is no image content between the two superficial image layers indicating that nothing soaked through to form the image on the other side.

Until recently, it was widely believed that the images on the Shroud of Turin were produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the linen fibers. This is incorrect. The coating, whether imaged or clear, can be reduced with diimide or removed with adhesive leaving clear cellulose fiber.

The images as they appear on the Shroud of Turin are said to be negative because when photographed the resulting negative is a positive image.

The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, lasermicroprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist’s media was found anywhere on the Shroud of Turin.

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>>1616338
>*starts sweating*
>b-b-better ignore all this startling info
>b-b-bet meme on him
>b-b-better go smug
>th-that'll show him
Nice try kid but it isn't a forgery. See >>1616294 >>1616297 >>1616301 >>1616306 >>1616310

In 2002, a team of experts did restoration work, such as removing the patches from 1534 and replacing the backing cloth. One of the specialists was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment.

The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada. The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD.

This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe.

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>>1616310

Look. Do you understand the history of relics during the 1300's?

Basically, they were a draw to pilgrims that donated lots of money to the Church that had the tooth of a stain, piece of the true cross, thorns from the crown of thorns, and so on.

Really all this shit couldn't be legit. In fact many Churches would buy and sell these things and even steal relics from each other in competition.

So given this, the simplest explanation was this was another holy relic that just came into being during the middle ages to earn more money for the Church.

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>>1616338
Max Frei, a Swiss police criminologist who initially obtained pollen from the shroud during the STURP investigation stated that of the 58 different types of pollens found, 45 were from the Jerusalem area, while 6 were from the eastern Middle East, with one pollen species growing exclusively in İstanbul, and two found in Edessa, Turkey.

Holy Shroud's blood test results? AB-
Sudarium of Oviedo's blood test results? AB-
Lanciano’s Eucharistic Miracle's blood test results? AB-

AB- = 1% of the population

Pic related.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_distribution_by_country

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>>1616338
>>1616352
If you read the ''Studies'' part of the Sudarium of Oviedo's article on Wiki, you'll read:

>The cloth has been dated to around 700 AD by radiocarbon dating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo#Studies

But if you look at the source (pdf below) provided in the ''Notes'' which is supposed to support that statement, you'll read:

>The sample from the Sudarium was dated to around 700 AD. Scientist César Barta spoke about the carbon dating process, emphasising the fact that if carbon dating is always absolutely accurate, then we could just as well finish the congress there and then. However, there were several points to bear in mind – in specialist carbon dating magazines, about half the samples dated come up with the expected date, around 30% with an “acceptable” date, and the other 20% is not what one would expect from archaeology.

>The laboratory used (via the National Museum in Madrid) said they were surprised by the result and asked if the cloth was contaminated with any oil based product, as oil is not cleaned by the laboratory processes used before carbon dating and if oil is present on a sample, the date produced by carbon dating is in fact the date of contamination. Finally, the history of the Sudarium is very well established and there are definite references to its presence in Jerusalem in AD 570 and at the beginning of the fifth century.

>As has already been mentioned, there are definite references to the Sudarium’s presence in Jerusalem in the 5th and 6th centuries, two hundred years before the carbon 14 date.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n65part6.pdf

Gee! I wonder why the person who wrote the wiki article didn't include that additional information!

Anyways, keep getting all your info from dishonest wiki articles, Mr. History Buff.

>>1616346
It's a forgery, you deluded Christcuck.

>>1616348
Look. Do you know anything about the Holy Shroud other than that a bogus test from the 80s (>>1616294 >>1616297 >>1616301) claims it's a "forgery"? I don't think so.

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>>1616360
Repeating this won't change the facts, kiddo.

Problems for the forgery theory:

The scourge marks on the Shroud are physiologically accurate. When examined under a microscope, each scourge mark reveals a slightly depressed center and raised edges. Under ultraviolet light each scourge mark can be seen to have a "halo" of lighter colour surrounding it. These halos were chemically tested and found to be blood serum which is left behind after a blood clot forms and then retracts inwards as it dries, a process called syneresis. These scourge mark indented centres and raised edges on the Shroud are not visible to the naked eye, but can only be seen when examined under a microscope and the serum halos can only be seen under ultraviolet light. This is further evidence that the Shroud could not have been created by an artist in the Middle Ages, or earlier, because that knowledge about blood clot structure, let alone a microscope and an ultraviolet light source to see it, did not then exist for many centuries into the future.

Each one of the over 100 scourge wounds on the Shroud matches exactly what would have been caused by a type of Roman flagrum buried in the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in AD 79. So a fourteenth century or earlier forger would have had to possess a faultless archaeological knowledge of a first century Roman scourging with a flagrum as well as make no normal artists' mistakes since each one of the over 100 scourge marks has identical dimensions. Only from the Middle Ages did artists depict the scourging of Jesus and even the best of them were vague about the details. But the scourge-marks on the Shroud are depicted with a realism that is unknown to the art of any period.

Pic related, "Flagellation of Christ" by Duccio di Buoninsegna (c. 1255-1319). "The scourge marks are represented as red dribbles all over the body, including the arms but not the legs".

The theory that the portion that was dated was taken from a medieval repair has no basis. The repair would have had to have been stitch perfect. We aren't even capable of making such a repair today.

I actually think the shroud is really interesting but the 1988 dating can't be thrown out so easily. Any possible contamination would have also only made a difference of a few centuries.

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>>1616360
>>1616370
Agnostic art historian Thomas de Wesselow states:

>"Once again, though, it [the Shroud] differs dramatically from anything envisaged in the Middle Ages. The vast majority of medieval images of the dead or dying Christ fail to depict any scourge marks at all ... Christ is sometimes shown bleeding in depictions of the flagellation, but the effect is always rather crude. In Duccio's rendering of the scene, for example, the scourge marks are represented as red dribbles all over the body, including the arms but not the legs ...The artist displays no knowledge of the Roman flagrum, nor any conception of how it was wielded. Even a fifteenth-century artist as accomplished as Jean Colombe, who definitely knew the Shroud, was unable to reproduce its convincing pattern of scourge marks ... To attribute the marks on the Shroud to a provincial unknown working in the mid fourteenth century is therefore ridiculous"

Pic related, "Man of Sorrows" by Jean Colombe (c. 1430-1493). "Colombe, who definitely knew the Shroud, was unable to reproduce its pattern of scourge marks."

Moreover, the medieval or earlier forger would have had to use goniometry, the science of calculating angles, to correctly work out the angle of each one of the over 100 scourge marks on the Shroud, but the first goniometer was not invented until 1780.

In conclusion, the pattern of scourge wounds on the Shroud correlates remarkably closely with the Gospels' description of the scourging of Jesus[64] and with what has, since the fourteenth century, been discovered by modern archaeology about first century Roman scourging.

>>1616371
Read the thread.

>>1616371
Forgot source, taken from one of the scientists who did the dating.

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/1254/1259

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>>1616367

Why did it not have any history before the 14th century?

Shouldn't the Pope owned this? I mean you got the death shroud of Jesus. Shouldn't that be on display in a palace or something?

I mean at least the Crusaders had a legit story about the piece of the true Cross.

The shroud just shows up at a time when hawking relics was a big deal and lucrative business.

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>>1616352

>>1616376
How about fuck you, you dismissed the 1988 dating by referencing this same bunk theory. The dating may be incorrect but it's not because the portion taken was from a repair.

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>le medieval ppl faked it!
>how? idk lol xD

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>>1616384
It was brought back to Europe from the Holy Land. See: >>1616306 >>1616310 >>1616346 >>1616352

>>1616386
Wait there's blood on the shroud? Why not clone?

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>>1616390
Shhh, no tears only dreams now.

>>1616402
Read the source I posted, he addresses the likelihood of the portion being a repair patch.

>>1616391
Yeah it's really mysterious and fascinating. However, the fact that we aren't sure how it was created doesn't mean the alternative explanation, that Jesus radiated divine energy to burn the image in the cloth? I'm not actually sure what the alternative explanation is. Anyway, the point being is that such an explanation is even more unlikely. If we're to use occams razor we still lean in favor of it being a forgery.

>>1616097
Aristotelian Metaphysics.

Has anyone thought that maybe this could be anyone's burial shroud? There were hundreds of crucifixions.
Probably even in the middle ages there were dudes with mustaches getting whipped and then crucified somewhere.
The idea that this one must be Jesus seems like wishful thinking.
Now I gotta wonder in the first place, pretend you are right and it's Jesus's shroud.
Even in the best case scenario, congratulations you found a relic.
Now what? Who gives a shit about relics anyway honestly, are you some cultist that you clutch at scraps of cloth?
I don't get this fascination with mysticism.

There'a some real selective reporting going on here. For example, the claim that the pollen on the shroud matches what should be found in Jesus' theoretical tomb. Okay, but is that the only pollen type found? Are there any other types of pollen from different locations? If the shroud was on public display for centuries then contamination from plenty of locales should be on it, including that which would be brought from pilgrims from Judea. So is that pollen exclusive or one of many samples?

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>>1616412
See this webm >>1616346
>forgery
I'll take you seriously if you can explain >>1616321 >>1616329

If not then you might as well deny that 9/11 ever happened.

Christ truly rose from the dead, anon.

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>>1616165
>tl:dc I don't want to be here so I'll make a scene

>>1616195
>muh gay marriage
>muh condoms
>muh abortions

KYS

>>1616417
It could just be some random guy's, possibly. But we've never discovered one that looks like this. It could just be bad luck, maybe we'll find the Roman dumping ground of burial shrouds and realize that something to do with the materials used led to these images being imprinted on the shrouds.

But so far, nope. This is the only one. There's no way we're aware of that an image like this could form on a burial shroud just laying on a corpse.

>>1616420
Well shit.

Now I just have to figure out which of the hundreds of versions of Christianity is the right one.

I don't like those odds tbqh.

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>>1616417
>anyone's
See >>1616335

>Now what?
Atheist nu-males love to claim "there's no evidence" but here we have actual physical evidence that He rose from the dead. See this webm >>1616346

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>What, then, is the Sacrament of the Altar? Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine, which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink.

>>1616420
Not an expert on medieval art or textiles so I can't. However, we certainly can't make the conclusion that Jesus rose from the dead based on this burial shroud. You know that so I'm not sure why you're stirring up shit.

>>1616434
Please tell me what nu-males have to do with anything.

>>1616420
Haha ok so I watched the webm. What exactly does this prove? You'll have to explain.

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>>1616432
>hundreds of versions of Christianity
Those hundreds (thousands actually) of versions of Christianity = protestant
Protestantism = the modern version of ancient heretical gnostic sects but much more cancerous

Join the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which Christ founded Himself.

Start by studying Church history if you have doubts.

>>1616302
>Why would I count investigations conducted by clergy-men who had no medical or scientific training?
Because they recruited people with that training for the research, you pillock.

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>here's the burial shroud of some ancient Jew
>therefore Christ has risen from the dead

>>1616420
>Christ truly rose from the dead, anon.
lol whatever

>>1616430
Maybe the forger engineered a whipped and crucified dead body and then preserved it since he knew what a racket relics were.

>>1616434
>when Christians try to bandwagon on pol memes
Wait I thought you faggots elevate faith above reason to justify your religion, and now you are celebrating your phoney "evidence", which is it.

>>1616430
What probably happened is that some criminal was to be executed and a monk offered him time off of purgatory in exchange for using his body to product a relic. Stuff like nails through the wrists instead of hands would be a matter of practicality of actually successfully recreating a crucifixion.

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>>1616430
>the materials used led to these images being imprinted on the shrouds
Read >>1616341

>>1616450
It shows you what happened.

>>1616451
>Start by studying Church history if you have doubts.

That's kind of a broad suggestion.

>>1616434
>>1616420
>>1616451

Well I guess I was right, you are a cultist.

>>1616466
Explain what happened, he glows with energy? You are not being specific.

>>1616348
And you wouldn't expect that the modern Church knows that and is conducting these tests to get substantial anwswers on the origins of the thing and find lots of science stuff that intrigues further study beyond "was it from the 1300's or the 0030's?"

Go take a running fuck at a rolling bagel.

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>>1616460
>some ancient Jew
See >>1616335

Those are serious mental gymnastics lad.

>therefore Christ has risen from the dead
Yes and the qualities of the Holy Shroud are evidence (if not proof) of it.

>>1616451
>Start by studying Church history if you have doubts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeculum_obscurum
All my doubts are cleared, there's no way your phony pornocracy could be the right denomination.

Wouldn't the simplest explanation just be that someone in the middle ages scourged and crucified some poor bastard who looked like Jesus to produce a "relic" worth a ton of money?

>>1616375
B-but he just hung a corpse from the ceiling to get the scourge marks!

>>1616478
This meme again?

>Saeculum obscurum (Latin: the Dark Age) is a name given to a period in the history of the Papacy during the first half of the 10th century, beginning with the installation of Pope Sergius III in 904 and lasting for sixty years until the death of Pope John XII in 964.
>lasting for sixty years
>sixty years
>sixty

>It would be misleading to portray all, or even most, of the popes of the era as worldly and corrupt. Surviving documents (and there are obvious lacunae) make it clear that many were competent administrators, and skilful diplomats in difficult and dangerous times. Some were even reformers, keen to root out discreditable practices such as simony. Others ordered the rebuilding and restoration of Rome's churches and palaces... Rather, it is the manner of the election of many of them and their symbiotic relationship with the Roman aristocracy that has earned their regime the designation pornocracy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeculum_obscurum

Okay but seriously here.

I'm a layman with no knowledge of forensics or history of cloth or of christianity etc.

Even if I read a bunch of science papers purporting to either authenticate or debunk the shroud of Turin I would have no idea if they were bullshitting me or not because I would have to check all of their sources and check their sources and then become an expert in several wildly different fields.

Should I just play it safe and believe?

Maybe Jesus was a mutant and the Crucifixion didn't kill him but merely sent him into torper, and while in the tomb his regenerating body produced massive amounts of radiation and baked all the molecules of blood and pollen into the linen. Once he was done pupating his body them became a gaseous vapor and he escape the linen and tomb by vibrating through the stone.

If you think my theory is stupid then shame on you you vile heretic because nothing shall be impossible to God.

>>1616481
Given that the alternative involves accepting that God came down in a human body, got killed, and revived some days later, any scenario you can cook up would be a simpler explanation.

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>>1616437
>Lutherfrog
At least Consubstatiation isn't complete Heretic garbage.

>>1616481
No no that won't do at all, it must be magic.

>>1616488
No, even the Catholic Church doesn't believe.

>>1616488
You can start by checking this out >>1616281

The only arguments that atheists can present are the 80s' bogus test (debunked), the letter of 1356 (debunked), the proto-photography theory proposed by Prof. Nicholas Allen (debunked) and Garlaschelli's embarrassing attempt to reproduce it (debunked).

>>1616498
What do mormons say?

>>1616498
>protestants are such morons for taking the bible literally, don't they realize Adam and Eve were just metaphorical?
>when Jesus was speaking at the Last Supper he was clearly being literal, because as we all know Jesus never spoke in parable and the Bible shouldn't be taken metaphorically anyway

>What is a metaphoric ritual and how do I even into it?

It's like you're not even trying to understand.

>>1616510
Latter-Day Saints are Mormons.

>>1616504
>t. my anal canal

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>>1616508
I like how some of these are literally >http://shroud.com

>>1616512
It's not just the Last Supper, it's John 6.

>>1616504
Insofar as we're still testing it and want to be 70x7% sure its the real deal.

We know that little chestnut of "Relic Gold Rush" was a thing and publically acknowledge it. Hence why we support the research.

>>1616508
You still haven't acknowledged the source I posted regarding the perfect stitching of the supposed repair fragment and how such a repair would be impossible. It's no coincidence scientists familiar with radiocarbon dating don't take the shroud seriously. Shroud believers have to jump through all sorts of mental hoops to justify ignoring the dating.

I can only hope the holy see approves another testing on a different piece of the cloth if only to shut you lot up.

>>1616517
That website just hosts those scientific documents.

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>>1616488
>>1616488
Doubles confirm.

>>1616510
>he doesn't know Mormons are officially known as Latter-Day Saints
>he doesn't realize calling them Mormons is like calling Muslims "Koranians"

>>1616515
Was it recently verified as a relic? Didn't think so.

>>1616520
Yes and that's good. My point being that it's safest to remain skeptical.

>>1616523
>mental hoops
Let's see yours: >>1616321 >>1616329

>>1616523
>I can only hope the holy see approves another testing on a different piece of the cloth if only to shut you lot up.
If the first shroud testing was a disaster for its authenticity, why authorize more? Ambiguity is plausible deniability and a relic is a huge tourist attraction.

>>1616533
t. member of the """"Church"""" of """"Jesus Christ"""" and Latter-day """"Saints""""

>>1616536
Did I deny the shroud has interesting properties? I'm merely pointing out the veracity of the dating. And you respond by changing the subject.

>>1616512
>a poetically written prehistoric creation narrative is comperable in writing structure to a 1st century biographical account of a particular man's life

>>1616532
>>1616508
>>1616451
>>1616478

Alright fuck this I'm just going to practice a generic non-denominational Christianity and hope I don't end up regretting it for all eternity.

>>1616544
>I mean it's interesting how the WTC doesn't look the same as it did in 1994, like, one tower even disappeared and the other one looks very different but you know, I'm not sure if 9/11 really happened, it's interesting and everything but I don't know man, it didn't really happen.

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>>1616554
Godspeed.

>>1616558
What is this fixation on 9/11 analogies?
Is this a common conspiracy theory jargon in your circles?

>>1616303
I was hoping you either quit 4chan or got hit by a bus

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>>1616542
I said it was official, I didn't say it was factual. :^)

>>1616558
Again, I see you're trying to dodge the issue. Here's the deal, until there's good reason to doubt the dating done in 1988 there's no reason to consider the shroud anything other than an interesting piece of medieval art. You can't get around the fact that it's from the middle ages.

>>1616303
<3

>>1616533
More like "Mohammedans", since no known called Muslims "Koranians"

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>>1616567
See >>1616294, >>1616297, and >>1616301

>>1616565
What truthful rebuke did you just righteously utter of me, you worthiest of souls? I’ll have you know I failed God to the deepest of the pit in my class of worldly sinners, and I’ve been involved in numerous shameful transgressions on God's forgiveness, and I have over 300 confirmed faults. I am depraved in wicked thoughts and I’m the top coveter in the entire legions of the damned. I am nothing to thee but just another Satan. I will praise you to heaven and back with the most contrite of hearts the likes of which has been seen all too often from the sinner, mark my unworthy lips. You think you can serve away with your words of wisdom to me over the Internet? God bless, brother. As we speak I am contacting my holy communion of saints across heaven and your love is being traced right now so you better prepare for the Theosis, militant. The mercy that sustains the shining little thing you call your soul. You’re God's gift, kid. I can be all things at all times to all men, and I can bow to you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just while kissing your hand. Not only am I extensively corrupted by unnameable vileness, but I have betrayed to the entire covenant of the Orthodox Body of Christ, and I will plead her to her full benevolence to sanctify your virtuous spirit off the face of the lie, you little star. If only you could have known what holy gratitude your little “meek” rebuke was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have blessed your benign tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re reaping the harvest, you God fearing joy. I will weep thanks all over you and you will drown in it. You've found life, kiddo.

>>1616577
Not that guy but curious since you seem to be a Catholic (the church accepts evolution I think) but link newgeology do you believe in it?

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>>1616554
Study Church history and convert to Catholicism, don't ever fall for the Sola Scriptura meme >>1616562

Non-denominational "Christianity" is protestantism.

>"This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall not conquer her."
St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, AD 395

>But, even the Church itself by itself, because of its marvelous propagation, its exceptional holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in all good works; because of its catholic unity and invincible stability, is a very great and perpetual motive of credibility, and an incontestable witness of its own divine mission.
Vatican I, Session 3, Chapter 3, AD 1870

>>1616575
Yeah but the point was "Mormons" is a name base on the title of their scripture, the Book of Mormon. Calling them Mormons IS like calling Muslims "Koranians."

Calling Muslims "Mohammedans" is like calling Mormons "Josephsmithites."

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>>1616580
Shroudposter here, this post is relevant >>1616528

>>1616577
So you're not going to read the source I posted. Alright, talk to you later probably.

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>>1616581
>>>/Rome/

>>1616587
Well that's good to know.

I've been seriously considering Catholicism as of late largely because they don't go full Ken Ham.

And also because its membership doesn't consist solely of retarded Americans.

>>1616592
Yeah mostly retarded Latin Americans instead.

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>>1616589
>Luther's demonic abomination (protestantism)
Not even once lad.

http://www.protestanterrors.com/

>>1610680

>Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-20

>>1616580
Link Newwhat?

And we don't really have an opinion on Evolution beyond "it's not incompatible with our theology and you aren't required to believe it, the only requirement on human genesis is 'God made to particular humans with immortal souls that are the common ancestors of all living humans.'"

We do however think Ken Ham is insane.

>>1616581
Posting quotes of your own side bragging about how great they are is a pretty fucking tacky way of proselytizing.
The attitude of these Catholics is downright disgraceful.

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>>1616598
Yes because when I think of a church with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone, I think of the flipping Vatican. . .

Give me a break Claudius.

>>1616611
He's got a point.

>>1616586
Except you're being autistic, since "Josephites" and "Koranians" are not terms, whereas "Mohammedans" and "Mormons" are. LDS also don't really mind being called Mormons, and often refer to themselves as that. It's only people like Episcopalians and so on who say we must call them by the PC name

>>1616611
If people kneel to the Pope, it's because of themselves, not Papal policy. You kiss his hand, but it's not policy to kneel to him. It only became popularized during the era when you were supposed to kneel to political rulers, and the Pope happened to be one. You never kneel to Orthodox bishops, but them, Orthodox bishops were never political rulers. But once again, kneeling to the Pope is not, and never was, Papal policy.

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>>1616592
Relevant quote:

>"Often a non-christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances, ... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, which people see as ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.

>The shame is not so much that an ignorant person is laughed at, but rather that people outside the faith believe that we hold such opinions, and thus our teachings are rejected as ignorant and unlearned. If they find a Christian mistaken in a subject that they know well and hear him maintining his foolish opinions as based on our teachings, how are they going to believe these teachings in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think these teachings are filled with fallacies about facts which they have learnt from experience and reason.

>Reckless and presumptous expounders of Scripture bring about much harm when they are caught in their mischievous false opinions by those not bound by our sacred texts. And even more so when they then try to defend their rash and obviously untrue statements by quoting a shower of words from Scripture and even recite from memory passages they think will support their case 'without understanting either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance.' (1 Timothy 1:7)"

St. Augustine of Hippo, "De Genesi ad litteram"

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>>1616611
>Centurion convert understandibly treats Peter like a demigod because he came from a faith where folks like Peter could be considered demigods
>Peter chastises him for this because he's well aware of why the Centurion is doing this and why he really shouldn't
>someone genuflected to a modern Pope
>CHECKMATE PAPIST IDOLATRY AHAHAHAAH
>pic related

Even then, society has shifted to a point when leaders no longer are regularly shown respect from plebs via genuflection so that image is retarded as fuck.

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>>1616606
>your own side
My "own side" is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church's whose history can be traced back to the 1st century, what is yours?

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>>1616621
It goes a bit deeper than that tbphwym8

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>>1616644
>avatarfagging as Satan's pawn
>>1610680

>>1616644
What's wrong with beads? We Orthodox use prayer ropes, not beads, but I don't see what's objectionable about beads.

Martin Luther never denied the Assumption. While the Orthodox deny the immaculate conception of Mary, and believed she had to go through the Dormition (falling asleep, as in, dying), we affirm a post-death Assumption, and it's likely Luther did as well.

The rest are right on, though.

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>>1616630
For some reason, my image of a Christlike man doesn't include a fancy hat and golden throne.

>>1616648
This picture always puzzled me. If anything it was the Catholic church that got massively fucking buttmad at Luther and his theses. He destroyed their influence in the most powerful nations of Europe.

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>>1616648
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIxkrFgb0CI

>>1616661
>no Peter
Become a mormon already.

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>>1616665
One scripture is enough thank you very much.

>>1616671
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

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>>1616652
Pic related.

Also why do you think Frank prefers using a dining room chair half of time?

Besides, at this point the ornate aspect is just tradition. Not Sacred Tradition, just tradition tradition. It can be dropped like Priestly celibacy. But there's no reason to beyond feels so why bother.

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>>1616687
>posts a Hebrew

you are not helping your case

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>>1616684
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae

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*drops mic*

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>>1616697
>Redpill.png
Here's the real redpill on Luther: >>1610680

>>1616704
>Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

>You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24

>He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Romans 2:6-7

>And so, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I am absent, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12

Looks like /r/Atheism has infiltrated 4chan once again, rest in peace.

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>>1616697
How about this? She's got quite the fancy fish hat as well. :^)

>>1616722
this can't be real

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>>1616728
Anything can be real with protestantism. You can even get your own planet one day with infinite celestial sex if you want!

>>1616728
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bWHSpmXEJs

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>>1616742
Reminds me of.

>>1616721
I think I'd prefer it to the three way orthro/catholic/protestant shitslinging. It's like a console war thread

>>1616750
>console war
And the protestants are the Wii haha xD

>>1616746
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMQjyRc7eiY

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>>1616728
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lesbian+bishop+remove+crosses

It's real, Protestaboo.

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>>1616750
>I'm an atheist and I prefer atheism. Religion is annoying, ugh!
t. le /r/atheism armie

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>>1616755

>>1616722
Why hello there, Cloaca Devlin.

>>1616785
>Cloaca Devlin
Who the fuck is that?

>>1616785
I think you mean Cloaca Birdwood

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>>1616194
>Orthodox Nuns.jpg
They look like roleplayers to be honest.

>>1616827
Those are Catholic nuns. Orthodox don't have Sacred Heart veneration.

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>>1616835
I know, they're passionists. The nuns you posted though look like pagan witches to be honest.

>>1616794
>>1616798
http://4archive.org/board/k/thread/30612767

CTRL+F for "devlin" and enjoy the read.

>>1616871
You mean how you imagine pagan witches. Actual ones wore things like facepaint and feathers.

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>>1616875

>>1616880
These are contemporary costumes, not actual witch wardrobes. This conception of the witch outfit doesn't date any earlier than the 20th Century.

>>1616417
This. As with all things religious, the only evidence that can come up with is circumstantial at best.

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>>1616888
They still look silly to be honest.

>>1616906
C U T E

>>1616451
Well it clearly can't be any version of christianity that includes the Gospel of John since John strongly contradicts the Turin Shroud.
:^)

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>>1616906
Our monks and nuns dress similarly, even identically often enough. In fact, we frequently refer to nuns as monks and convents as monasteries. It's the same exact thing, there are just male monks and female monks.

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>>1616923
Nope.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n62part7.pdf

>>1616924
I'm just saying that these >>1616194 look silly.

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>>1616938
Here is classical Catholic monk attire

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>>1616946
>mocking the Order of Saint Benedict
edgy

>>1616938
This doesn't seem to make reference to John 20 1-8, where it is made note of that Jesus' face cloth is lying separate from the rest of his burial cloths.
And the shroud of Turin makes no distinction between the two.

Also if Jesus was laid to rest according to "the burial custom of the jews" (As mentioned on your site, quoting John) then I'm pretty sure that would also mean that his body would have been cleaned prior to being wrapped.

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>>1616946
>>1616966
What's wrong with their clothing by the way? They just wear a simple black cloak with a leather belt and shoes.

>>1616997
See >>1616357

>>1616999
not enough epic symbols and shit

What miracles does the so-called orthodox church have?

>>1616966
I'm not mocking it, I'm pointing out that it's the same as the Great Schema attire which YOU were mocking. The only difference is the Great Schema has a symbolic funeral draping signifying one is dead to the world.

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>>1617014

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>>1617014
They've got their fraudulent precious """""""""Holy""""""""" Fire thing which you can do at home.

>>1617022
I'm not mocking anything and I actually like the "orthodox" priests' habit. This >>1616194 just looks ridiculous. I cringe everytime you post that pic.

>>1617024
lel there it is

>>1617028
Saying something looks ridiculous and it makes you cringe is not mocking it?

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>>1617024
"Woah dude shit's fucking lit dude"

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>>1617036
Mocking would be posting the worst pic I could find on Google about one of the many great Catholic religious orders while adding a smug comment like you did.

>>1617044
I just got that from googling "Catholic monks"

You're projecting, and there wasn't anything smug about my comment, I was just point out that while your nuns might not wear anything like that, your monks do. You're being polemical about something petty, and so read polemics where they aren't there.

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>>1617059
>your monks do
Like pic related? Not really.

>ORTHODOX IS ONE CHURCH AND TRUE CHURCH!!!11 WE UNITED ORTHODOX IS ONE!!!11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn90BNz729k

>>1617064
Yes, in the sense of being a black robe with a pointy hood.

Our monks, the ones who attain it, are given the Great Schema, that is garments with those insignia, to wear over their other garments. The depiction is of Christ's cross over Golgotha, with Adam's skull beneath it, and various abbreviated words saying different things. It symbolizes being crucified and buried with Christ, to completely transcend carnal delights and delight only in prayer and silence. The seraph, where depicted, also represents this, since seraphim have no flesh. Where a Ladder is depicted, that represents Jacob's Ladder, which is a big image in Orthodox (see The Ladder of Divine Ascent, by Saint John of the Ladder).

I thought you were calling the general shape of the garment silly, I had no idea you were saying Christian imagery is silly, especially when it represents very significant and real things regarding a person's lifestyle.

>>1617068
What does Constantine the Orthoshill of protestant background have to say about these armenian ethnophyletists and greek ethnophyletists gentlemen fighting against each other inside the Church of the Nativity?

>>1617068
Those are Orthodox, but they aren't clergy.It's an ethnic riot between Greeks and Armenians.

>>1617077
Armenians and Greeks are not in full Communion, at least de jure Communion. Armenians are in communion with the Copts. Their Communion and the Greek Communion share that church, and that's basically what the fight was about.

The people fighting are mostly young guys. Some clerics did get hit in this brawl, and even monks, but they weren't actually doing any fighting themselves.

The Middle East is a very sectarian place. Christians over there can be as dangerous as Muslim extremists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

>>1616648
Switch the faces and you're accurate.

>>1617087
But it's the proddies who are butthurt about Catholicism and keep attacking the Holy Church with their anti-Catholic lies.

>>1616458
>>1616458
Anon is now aware that (((people with training))) can be bought, see: any study with conflicts of interest, e.g. faux tobacco studies mid 20th century

>>1617143
>mental gymnastics
Nice damage control anon.

People discussing their religion are like wrestling fans talking about wrestling: sure we know its fake, but we are not going to mention it. It would kill the fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI

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>>1617200
ikr xD

>>1616195

If you're an atheist whatever but you're a whiny bitch for white knighting sluts and seriously caring about fags

>>1616357
Did someone ITT add "However, at the same conference this information was presented, it was noted that the cloth has a definite history which extends back to approximately 570 AD. The laboratory noted that later oil contamination could have resulted in the late dating"?

I remember it just saying "The cloth has been dated to around 700 AD by radiocarbon dating." last time I checked.

Learn to differenciate essence and substance you pleb. Abelard explained this using Aristotlean logic almost 1000 years ago.

>>1617274
"Substance" is a Latin translation of Aristotle's "Ousia" (Greek for essence), it's the same thing as essence in Christian theology.

>>1617241
All church rulings are arbitrary and have always been. You don't get to endure for more than 1000 years without accomodating to changes in culture.
We can see where it's all going from here:
- No celibacy for priests or nuns
- Women get to be priests
- Gay marriage
- More open on contraception methods

And If you believe any of those to be bad, you might as well think blacks and natives shouldn't be ordered as priests, as it was common ruling during colonial times.

>>1616244
Its a lot easier for them to get access to boys, dipshit, that's why.

>>1617274
>explained
Kek. Yeah, the same way Aristotle explained that heavier objects fall faster and everything is made of the four elements. Thanks for putting in perspective the level of credibility catholic theology has.

Yup, a miracle indeed.

>>1616097
>he believes in rights

>>1616142
see:>>1616276
I'm kind of with Trashman on this one, it almost gets ridiculous this whole "so long as they're not hurting anyone" way of addressing them. Don't take their rights, but at any other avenue don't let them gain an inch. Indulging in their behaviour in front of them all the while you're thinking they're retarded in your head is not respectful.
It only exludes them and makes them the other instead of putting them to the same standard you would any other.
https://youtu.be/emkAoqLf4Ao

>>1616142
Christians in Africa are slaughtering gays right now

>>1620267
Yeah, they'd be peaceful if they weren't Christians.

>>1616244
For some strange, inexplicable reason, many priests are gay

>>1620270
They weren't killing gays before Christianity, by and large

>>1620282
What are you basing this on? Plenty of tribal people killed gays, Germanics and Vikings both hated gays back when they were pagans.

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>>1616738
>non-trinitarians
>christian

>>1616161

>>1616261
literally the religion board faggot

>>1617153
>mental gymnastics
See: Tobacco institute.

>>1620809
>/his/ - History & Humanities
>/x/ - Paranormal
>>>/x/

bump for Christ

>>1616165
Is this bait? Because if you're just a catechumen, which many people are, you wouldn't have received first communion yet and would be in the pew.

>>1622119
>Is this bait?
Is this bait?

>>1616194
these nuns look metal as fuck

>>1616097

Fucking yanks unable to grasp the concept of transubstantiation, go shove your king james up your hole you proddy shite

>>1616165
this is phrased like a troll or a really bad edgelord but i don't actually see anything done wrong here. one shouldn't take communion if not a believing catholic; sitting in silence is perfectly appropriate.

>>1616142
>They're not hurting anyone
jej

>>1617241
A truly epic post

wew